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Posted: 5/16/2024 8:31:06 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's be real OP, the reason is because in the Cold War it was us against the evil communists. Our whole thing was "We're the good guys." We wouldn't really look like the good guys if we just went around telling everyone we recruited a bunch of old nazis and gave 'em a pass on all the shit that happened because they were useful to us. All Werner did was build rockets. Don't look up Unit 731. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 8:33:38 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. LOL. Paperclip was a huge success for us. Might as well honor the guys who did the heavy lifting. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 8:44:48 AM EDT
[#3]
Most likely answer: Because the woke goblins tearing down statues don't know who Von Braun and especially Debus was.
The people at NASA who understand we weren't going to beat the Russians in space without Von Braun aren't in a big hurry to sully NASA's reputation over Von Braun. It's just easier to let that particular sleeping dog lie. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 8:51:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them. "Stanley Kubrick was born in New York." |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 8:51:50 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. Valid question. Why did this Nation fight the Civil War? A war between Brothers. I suppose one could say war is diplomacy that goes past words. When this war was over, the South was welcomed back into the Nation. As it should have been. WWI. When that war was over, the belligerent Nations made peace and moved on. WWII. When that war was over, the belligerent Nations made peace and moved on. Yes. We made use of the technology and those who had facilitated that for Nazi Germany. Citizenship and a fat paycheck seemed to be enough to convince them to make peace with their bad deeds. They are now Ex-nazi's I suppose. As for destroying monuments from past conflicts, that's just stupid. But look at the type of people doing that. Enuff said. I don't see ANY reason not to forgive someone in that position, Civil War, WWI, WWII whichever war once hostilities have ceased. What, we're going to act like Hatfield's & McCoy's and continue the feud down through generations just because great-great-great grandaddy was pissed at the other G-G-G-grandaddy for something nobody clearly remembers from a hunnert years ago? LOL. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 9:12:40 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Valid question. Why did this Nation fight the Civil War? A war between Brothers. I suppose one could say war is diplomacy that goes past words. When this war was over, the South was welcomed back into the Nation. As it should have been. WWI. When that war was over, the belligerent Nations made peace and moved on. WWII. When that war was over, the belligerent Nations made peace and moved on. Are you high? The south was *forced* back into the nation. While being raped by carpetbaggers. And we’re all enslaved to this day by the behemoth that arose. Nobody moved on from WWI - as evidenced by WWII. In reality they’re just an extension of the same war, and that war has continued to this day, with the next big Act ready to kick off any day now. The minor scuffles of the last 80 years are all logical consequences of things that happened in the 1940’s. Make peace and move on. Lol. That would be laughable if it wasn’t so absurdly sad. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 9:18:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Because they were our Nazis.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 9:19:34 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no problem with this. +1 |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:20:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Because winner write the history books, and losers become dusty photos in a displaced family scrapbook.
I can assure you that you’d do what you needed to do to survive in a totalitarian state. The brave hero’s end up in a gulag. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:41:14 AM EDT
[#10]
Not in any way a war criminal and anyone who claims so is carrying water for commies.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:44:54 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's be…bla blah blah… Yeah, that's not happening. Who the fuck do you think you are? George Washington? Next thread by OP: Why are we (USA) still honouring slave owners to this day? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:45:42 AM EDT
[#12]
I missed the last Von Braun parade when is it scheduled?
NASA doesn’t celebrate these men, if anything, they are awfully quiet about that ol nazi rocket guys. The Nazi involvement in The Bomb is also acknowledged but not celebrated. I think op was triggered by internet today. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:46:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Why do we only fixate on Nazis? The Japanese were to some degree worse. The Nazis viewed Jews and other undesirables as inferior people. The Japanese viewed non Japanese as not even human which is how they were able to have their soldiers do such horrendous things.
The Nazis had death camps but I don't think the average soldier was playing baby bayonet like the Japs were. The Germans took prisoners and for the most part treated them with some dignity. The Japanese didn't. The killed for entertainment. They tortured for entertainment. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:47:22 AM EDT
[#14]
Couldn't one say the same thing about how we made statues to (Confederates and Founding Fathers) people who owned slaves?
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:50:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because winner write the history books, and losers become dusty photos in a displaced family scrapbook. I can assure you that you’d do what you needed to do to survive in a totalitarian state. The brave hero’s end up in a gulag.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:55:54 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Von Braun was a Genius and the Reason we got to the Moon. The Saturn V was the most powerful Rocket ever envisioned!! I used to love to go look at the Saturn V 1st Stage at the Michoud assembly facility in NOLA east!!  Saturn V is no longer king. Starship/super heavy will make all you heathens Americans once again. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 10:56:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These men weren't Nazis per se but rather a member of the party so they could pursue their work. The Soviets did the same but weren't quite as forgiving to the German scientists as we were. Pretty much this. Von Braun knew the only way to succeed (and for literally any scientist in the world) was $$$$$$$. That's really the only reason he pretended to give a shit about Hitler and his minions. He just wanted their money. Nazi Germany funded his research and gave him the resources he needed - he was purely in it for the science and ultimately promoting himself high above anyone else in the world. Of course he was well aware of the slave labor used at Mittelbau-Dora for V-1 and V-2 production, so I'm not suggesting he gets a pass, but he was certainly not your typical Nazi fanatic who dreamt of murdering inferior peoples in the name of Germany. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:06:42 AM EDT
[#18]
Back in the day when Von Braun was alive there was no real emphasis on his past either positive or negative.
It was not until recent years that the term Operation Paperclip became widely mentioned. Just think if we were Woke during WWII. The Soviets would have secured all the German scientists and that is assuming we could have even won that war. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:07:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obviously their pasts weren't whitewashed if you are here, whinging about it. They are remembered for their massive contributions to this country and to science. Self righteousness with a lack of self reflection is the worst of personality traits. This post nails it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:11:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know Henry Ford was a Nazi too... A lot of Americans were Nazi's.. or supporters of Germany. I mean.. Germany even awarded Henry Ford with the German Eagle medal in 1938... Prior to the war, yes. He converted with quickness, as did Lindbergh and others. For that matter, FDR's book that he wrote prior to his election - first POTUS to start that trend - was required reading in the Hitler Youth prior to them declaring war on America, because Hitler considered FDR to be a fellow socialist/fascist traveller. Your heroes aren't clean. NONE of them, beyond Jesus. Get the F over it. Celebrate them for what they did that was great, don't belittle them for what they did to survive. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:12:56 AM EDT
[#21]
I’m more concerned with all the damn communists in government than I am a small number of Nazi scientists.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:13:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Some men can, are and will be shaped by the govt's they serve.
Bad Govt - genocide of people Not as Bad Govt - Moon Rocks. A narcissist will make a deal with anyone to see their own personal dreams fulfilled. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:15:21 AM EDT
[#23]
The Apollo mission was the most American thing since shooting redcoats. Von Braun is a hero regardless of his past. Plus he’s dead. People trying to denounce him are faggots of the highest degree.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:16:38 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Apollo mission was the most American thing since shooting redcoats. Von Braun is a hero regardless of his past. Plus he’s dead. People trying to denounce him are faggots of the highest degree. Indeed |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:17:20 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let me put it another way. In WW2 the Japanese performed medical experiments on living POWs, including American POWs. Would you be ok with honoring a Japanese scientist or doctor for helping us, post-war, to find a cure for some disease or disability we were plagued with? I'm not saying we throw away the skills and knowledge contributed by these men, I'm just saying we shouldn't honor the war criminals. If we are going to leave the monuments to them up, why shouldn't their full pasts also be displayed? Not equivalent, not even close, and illustrative of your historical ignorance. Those Japanese doctors actually did the experiments themselves, and took pleasure in it. There is no documented evidence that von Braun stood over a slave laborer and wielded the whip, or denied rations. He did the science, he didn't run the factories, and any resistance would have just gotten him deaded. Furthermore, the slave laborers making rockets had a better chance at survival that anyone who got sent to Auscwitz or the other death camps. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:22:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them. 'You believe in the moon...? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:26:00 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some men can, are and will be shaped by the govt's they serve. Bad Govt - genocide of people Not as Bad Govt - Moon Rocks. A narcissist will make a deal with anyone to see their own personal dreams fulfilled. Yep, well stated On a side note, when this subject comes up in GD I’m always surprised by how much innovation posters attribute to “Nazi scientists”. From my perspective, weapons development funding dropped to almost nothing postwar, frustrating most of the advantage the US might have gained from German scientists. By the time funding was increased, innovation from the Nazi era was old news. Which is not to say German scientists don’t contribute. Well into the 1960s and early 1970s we were hiring Germans into govt. research programs. They still had a good educational system and had better opportunities in the US. As Germany did better economically, they stopped coming, but even in my early career in energetics in the 2000s some of them were still around. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:31:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Von Braun was a Genius and the Reason we got to the Moon. The Saturn V was the most powerful Rocket ever envisioned!! I used to love to go look at the Saturn V 1st Stage at the Michoud assembly facility in NOLA east!! For the record: American engineers got von Braun's ideas over the goal line. The N-1's had an explosive instability issue that the Germans were about to give up on, but an American engineer solved the problem that they couldn't. There are myriad instances of that. Von Braun was a charismatic leader and a visionary, but the greatest leaders know that their success only comes because of the performance and supreme competence of their organization's people. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:34:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. He was a genius who wanted to build rockets and didn't care how they were used. If you're going to condemn him for that you'd better start with a long hard look at your current life. Does your successful business/career actually further humankind? Or just make money off crap people don't need? OP is headed down a bumpy road. He's not entirely wrong to do so but I don't think he realizes how philosophically and morally deep and long this road goes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He is honored because of his technology achievements in context of the NASA space program, not a full endorsement of his entire life. If you're incapable of separating the two and recognizing every human is flawed to different degrees that's a pretty high horse your sitting on. Yep. He was a genius who wanted to build rockets and didn't care how they were used. If you're going to condemn him for that you'd better start with a long hard look at your current life. Does your successful business/career actually further humankind? Or just make money off crap people don't need? OP is headed down a bumpy road. He's not entirely wrong to do so but I don't think he realizes how philosophically and morally deep and long this road goes. I think its odd to compare a [hypothetically speaking] toy manufacturer who perhaps might build action figures for kids... is every bit as ethically dubious as someone who builds rockets intended to defend a genocidal regime. Making toys that kids don't necessarily need... is not going to bring harm into the world in the same manner that a rocket provided to an evil regime is. No offense, but its an odd comparison. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:35:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you high? The south was *forced* back into the nation. While being raped by carpetbaggers. And we're all enslaved to this day by the behemoth that arose. Nobody moved on from WWI - as evidenced by WWII. In reality they're just an extension of the same war, and that war has continued to this day, with the next big Act ready to kick off any day now. The minor scuffles of the last 80 years are all logical consequences of things that happened in the 1940's. Make peace and move on. Lol. That would be laughable if it wasn't so absurdly sad. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Valid question. Why did this Nation fight the Civil War? A war between Brothers. I suppose one could say war is diplomacy that goes past words. When this war was over, the South was welcomed back into the Nation. As it should have been. WWI. When that war was over, the belligerent Nations made peace and moved on. WWII. When that war was over, the belligerent Nations made peace and moved on. Are you high? The south was *forced* back into the nation. While being raped by carpetbaggers. And we're all enslaved to this day by the behemoth that arose. Nobody moved on from WWI - as evidenced by WWII. In reality they're just an extension of the same war, and that war has continued to this day, with the next big Act ready to kick off any day now. The minor scuffles of the last 80 years are all logical consequences of things that happened in the 1940's. Make peace and move on. Lol. That would be laughable if it wasn't so absurdly sad. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:37:22 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Von Braun was brilliant he was also a Luciferian and occultist, he admitted that the jet/rocket propulsion knowledge his team ascertained came from summonsing demons (aliens) his words... Sorry, doesn't square at all with the life he and his family lived, or the people I know that knew him firsthand in Huntsville. I bet you believe in chemtrails too....... |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:37:45 AM EDT
[#32]
One of my former neighbors worked with him, and held him in the highest regard. He left the program, the entire field, not long after von Braun left, saying it just wasn't the same. Part of his frustration seemed to be the obsessions of others intent on tearing the man down. Makes a big difference to know somebody first hand. I never did, only knowing my neighbor's stories of him.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:39:37 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't say I wanted any monuments torn down. I'm actually against the erasing of history by the tearing down of monuments. I'm just asking why they exist, today, without the full context of what these men did in the past. And the same goes for Confederate Generals. If they were piece of shit human beings who owned slaves, it should be mentioned on their plaques along with their "achievements". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OK so you want to tear down monuments. How about the Confederate statues? They probably had slaves, should we tear then down too? How about renaming all the schools of our early presidents because they probably had slaves or indentured servants. I didn't say I wanted any monuments torn down. I'm actually against the erasing of history by the tearing down of monuments. I'm just asking why they exist, today, without the full context of what these men did in the past. And the same goes for Confederate Generals. If they were piece of shit human beings who owned slaves, it should be mentioned on their plaques along with their "achievements". You certainly asked “why they haven’t been torn down”, which is an extremely short step from stating you want them torn down. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:41:02 AM EDT
[#34]
Right Stuff: (or was it Apollo 13?)
"Our nazis are better than their nazis" |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:41:34 AM EDT
[#35]
1984
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:51:18 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You certainly asked "why they haven't been torn down", which is an extremely short step from stating you want them torn down. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK so you want to tear down monuments. How about the Confederate statues? They probably had slaves, should we tear then down too? How about renaming all the schools of our early presidents because they probably had slaves or indentured servants. I didn't say I wanted any monuments torn down. I'm actually against the erasing of history by the tearing down of monuments. I'm just asking why they exist, today, without the full context of what these men did in the past. And the same goes for Confederate Generals. If they were piece of shit human beings who owned slaves, it should be mentioned on their plaques along with their "achievements". You certainly asked "why they haven't been torn down", which is an extremely short step from stating you want them torn down. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:54:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Not knowing these men personally, I’ve got a feeling they cared less about what government they worked for as long as they were given the funding and ability to work on rockets. People I’ve known that were cream of the crop, highly intelligent and involved in STEM disciplines would be so focused on projects that a building could burn down around them and they would never notice. The German and later US government gave them resources and highly technical people possibly didn’t give any thought to the details of what those resources entailed. Our government may have also given them positive press and elevated them to encourage talented scientists from the Soviet Bloc to defect, too.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:56:29 AM EDT
[#38]
He’s a hero to the United States regardless of what he did for Germany.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 11:59:30 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I missed the last Von Braun parade when is it scheduled? NASA doesn’t celebrate these men, if anything, they are awfully quiet about that ol nazi rocket guys. Tell me you havent been to a NASA museum without telling me youve never been to a NASA museum |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:07:53 PM EDT
[#40]
I'm more concerned with those in our government that honor Che Guevara.
Of course they have to white wash their past. If they were to out and out admit that they perpetrated a conspiracy to hoodwink the American people, cover up their past and forgive their transgressions in exchange for their services, folks might start wondering what else the government is willing to do. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:10:27 PM EDT
[#41]
... Of all the shit to fuss about it, this is gayer than 10 dudes sucking 9 dicks.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:12:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... Of all the shit to fuss about it, this is gayer than 10 dudes sucking 9 dicks. Thank you. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:18:34 PM EDT
[#43]
Apollo era NASA is peak USA to me. I’ve met multiple Apollo astronauts. And they’ve always been gods to me.
And the world was better when astronauts were gods. Fight me. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:25:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Hey, OP! Would you rather that the Rooskies had gotten them?
It might behoove you to read up in detail about Operation Paperclip and why there was such a rush to complete its objective. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:30:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hey, OP! Would you rather that the Rooskies had gotten them? It might behoove you to read up in detail about Operation Paperclip and why there was such a rush to complete its objective. I find that most people who spend most of their time whining about nazi this or nazi that actually are quite fond of communist ideology. It's why they can't move on from 1933-1945. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:37:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL. Paperclip was a huge success for us. Might as well honor the guys who did the heavy lifting. My next door neighbor growing up in Ohio was a "Paperclip German". Loyal American and the most rabid anti-communists I've known. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:39:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My next door neighbor growing up in Ohio was a "Paperclip German". Loyal American and the most rabid anti-communists I've known. That’s what matters most. Anti-communist. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 12:46:27 PM EDT
[#48]
I used to run into Gene Cernan regularly at FBOs around the south. Despite meeting him multiple times I was always dumbstruck and the desk chick was always clueless.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:25:31 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You certainly asked “why they haven’t been torn down”, which is an extremely short step from stating you want them torn down. I never asked "why they haven't been torn down". Learn to read, try to actually read what was posted; and stop accusing people of making statements that were never actually made. I stated in my original post that Mark Felton wondered why the monuments to men like Von Braun hadn't been torn down (in the context of other monuments getting torn down, like those to Confederate generals). I merely stated that was a good question (as to the full context of Mark's question). I never said any monuments needed to be torn down, should be torn down, or the people doing the tearing down were justified in doing so. This is one of the problems with GD. Some of you people get so emotional over an issue you see words that were never posted, and you string together sentences that were never actually typed. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:28:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Get over it...
 They were smart and got shit done. I seriously doubt any of them were high enough in the party to be involved in "the final solution". 
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