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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:37:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They invented new gimmicks to attach to handguns, like red dot sights Except that a RDS provides a measurable performance delta while a laser is slower than aimed fire. Beyond that? Exactly the same. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:41:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suppose it would have a psychological effect, if you're close range. A laser would tell them "yep, that gun is pointed right at my chest!" If there's a guy pointing a gun at him, is he going to be looking at his chest? Other people looking at him, ie the audience, are the ones looking at that. A visual device in movies is the best use of a vis laser. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:42:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not really. A visible light laser gives you no user feedback unless it’s on target. If it was useful and an advantage on a handgun they would be used in competitive venues were they’re legal. But they’re not. They’re useful on a PCC in an extremely narrow set of circumstances which are only made relevant by the rules of the competition and don’t translate to the real world. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Target focus is the same for RDS or a laser. If you are searching for the dot your presentation sucks Not really. A visible light laser gives you no user feedback unless it’s on target. If it was useful and an advantage on a handgun they would be used in competitive venues were they’re legal. But they’re not. They’re useful on a PCC in an extremely narrow set of circumstances which are only made relevant by the rules of the competition and don’t translate to the real world. Their useful on small fixed sight handguns when the sights are practically useless or cannot be zeroed to the issued duty ammo. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:44:03 PM EDT
[#4]
they are, but you can’t see the laser.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:44:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their useful on small fixed sight handguns when the sights are practically useless or cannot be zeroed to the issued duty ammo. How about we just stop using retarded guns, instead? |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:45:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Emitting is gross. FPNI. 21st century is passive only. No emit RF, bluetooth, cell signals, etc. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:46:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Dbal D2 master race.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:48:38 PM EDT
[#8]
I have TLR2's on a HD rifle and a pistol and a CT on a P32 and I like them. Would buy again.
Next thing you know you'll be telling me cargo shorts went out of style. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:49:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about we just stop using retarded guns, instead? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Their useful on small fixed sight handguns when the sights are practically useless or cannot be zeroed to the issued duty ammo. How about we just stop using retarded guns, instead? You’re fighting 60 years of tradition and policy creep. Yes it’s crazy to expect a 50-year old cops to qualify at 25-yards with a stainless Model 60. That has bright stainless fixed sights. When I had those old timers on the range, failing qualification, they had three options. 1. Retire 2. Return the agency Jframe and buy a personal Glock 26 3. Buy CT laser grips and have their department armorer install them Per policy |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:52:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’re fighting 60 years of tradition and policy creep. Yes it’s crazy to expect a 50-year old cops to qualify at 25-yards with a stainless Model 60. That has bright stainless fixed sights. When I had those old timers on the range, failing qualification, they had three options. 1. Retire 2. Return the agency Jframe and buy a personal Glock 26 3. Buy CT laser grips and have their department armorer install them Per policy I’m almost 50. There’s no reason to keep doing retarded shit with retarded gear. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 1:55:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s only useful function is psychological. That's my thinking as well. I'm using the sights for aiming, not the laser dot. I still have an Insight M6X from 2008-ish on my HK USP 
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:01:09 PM EDT
[#12]
I love lasers….. they are a great tool for sight in. When I change optics or sights I put one on, zero it, switch sights and adjust the new sights as needed. I’m usually only a click or two off when time to confirm zero at the range. Pistols are usually dead on.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:01:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When Laser Devices Inc was pushing theirs in the 90s, I had to get one for the MP5. It fit horribly, but never lost a zero. I ended up getting another housing for it. Pulled the laser module and was rocking it on a P89. I believe Beretta bought them out and they are now part of Steiner. Either way, the laser still functions 100%. ETA- Laser have been an AWESOME deterrent in LE. The red dot on someone's chest seems to have a different effect. The problem was the quality of them and the CT one I had always ended up getting blocked by indexing. Tasers also have built in lasers, IIRC. I'd have to imagine that has - for some, anyways - a "maybe I should quit fucking around" effect. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:06:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tasers also have built in lasers, IIRC. I'd have to imagine that has - for some, anyways - a "maybe I should quit fucking around" effect. So you’re looking for the “bad action movie and/or basic cable cop drama” effect. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:11:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tasers also have built in lasers, IIRC. I'd have to imagine that has - for some, anyways - a "maybe I should quit fucking around" effect. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When Laser Devices Inc was pushing theirs in the 90s, I had to get one for the MP5. It fit horribly, but never lost a zero. I ended up getting another housing for it. Pulled the laser module and was rocking it on a P89. I believe Beretta bought them out and they are now part of Steiner. Either way, the laser still functions 100%. ETA- Laser have been an AWESOME deterrent in LE. The red dot on someone's chest seems to have a different effect. The problem was the quality of them and the CT one I had always ended up getting blocked by indexing. Tasers also have built in lasers, IIRC. I'd have to imagine that has - for some, anyways - a "maybe I should quit fucking around" effect. Yes with Tasers, laser works well as a deterrent. Surprisingly cops are able to hit running close range targets with TASERs far better than with Glocks. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:23:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you’re looking for the “bad action movie and/or basic cable cop drama” effect. Nah - I wouldn't depend on any psychological effect from emitting a laser, and I'm going to assume a theoretical assailant is on meth or something and probably isn't assessing risk and rethinking things in real-time, regardless of what I do (aside from opening fire). That said, if there's a chance they see the laser on their center of mass and decide to stop, I'm good with that. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:30:05 PM EDT
[#17]
I've seen some limited use for leo types, mainly gas mask stuff or an ad hoc back up sight due to some crazy scenarios but that's about it for recent discussion.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:30:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Because pistol-mounted RDS do basically the same thing but better. Super-impose an aiming point on your target that allows for faster, both eyes open, target-focused shooting, except the RDS doesn’t wash out as distance increases, doesn’t inform your target that you’re there, etc
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:38:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes with Tasers, laser works well as a deterrent. Surprisingly cops are able to hit running close range targets with TASERs far better than with Glocks. Watching body cam videos will quickly tell you that is doubtful. Tasers miss stationary targets all the time. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:41:19 PM EDT
[#20]
I install what I want on my guns…I don’t follow trends like you sheeple…
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:43:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah - I wouldn't depend on any psychological effect from emitting a laser, and I'm going to assume a theoretical assailant is on meth or something and probably isn't assessing risk and rethinking things in real-time, regardless of what I do (aside from opening fire). That said, if there's a chance they see the laser on their center of mass and decide to stop, I'm good with that. Soooo… “No, but actually yes”? |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:45:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suppose it would have a psychological effect, if you're close range. A laser would tell them "yep, that gun is pointed right at my chest!" They can’t see it though. I used to have one on my patrol rifle way back in the day. Had a suspect once (20 some years ago or more) who likely didn’t speak great english, and who was not getting the hint while having an AR pointed at him, laser dot was right on him. Sweeping the laser directly into his eyes did the trick though to get him to understand that he was gonna lose if he kept it up and decided to try his luck in a gunfight. So they have their uses I suppose. A good use would be if you just have an optic with no back up irons- the laser is the backup sight. Better than nothing. The issue is that most of them are low quality, or have some poorly thought out design issues. Once upon a time I happened to do a traffic stop on one of the founders of Crimson Trace, and we got to talking about the lasers they were making for pistols. At the time their design had the laser emitter in the upper right side of the pistol grip. I had to explain that I would never buy one or recommend it, simply because they put the laser where you trigger finger would always block it if you were keeping your trigger finger off the trigger until you were ready to fire- a basic firearm safety rule. It was like they knew a lot about lasers, but not much about how people were professionally trained to shoot, and indexing your trigger finger was a foreign concept or something. I personally liked the old DBAL for IR and visible laser use, but nowadays that is out of fashion due to concerns about your opponent also having NV capability. Maybe, but plenty of people still don’t have NV, nor know how to actually use it… |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:47:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Well they still are a thing but now IR and bootleg powerful that will melt your eyes.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:48:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless your opponent has NODS. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have one on a 300blk. It is invisible though. Unless your opponent has NODS. If the coyotes get NODS, wet have problems. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:54:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tasers also have built in lasers, IIRC. I'd have to imagine that has - for some, anyways - a "maybe I should quit fucking around" effect. More because they have suggestions for “sights”. And also the laser makes it easier to just chump shoot somebody with the taser from waist level. (ie- had the taser kind of hidden as a backup plan, or just drew it out). BTDT. Lots of times for a taser you are so close to the person that it might be a mistake to fully extend your arms to lock out position. So the laser on the Taser is a pretty decent decision. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 2:57:12 PM EDT
[#26]
They’re not gone, they’re just not a fad anymore.
I have two lasers at this point. One is a TLR-6 on my G43, which I carry probably 80% of the time. I bought it because I wanted a decent light; the laser was just a minor bonus. If I already have the light on, the laser doesn’t hurt. The other is a cheap IR laser on my 11.5” .300 BO. It’s a cheap Amazon on, but has held zero for ~500 rounds so far and provide a capability I didn’t have before. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:10:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soooo… “No, but actually yes”? Hah, maybe "no, wouldn't expect nor depend on any advantage by using a laser, but in the (amittedly miniscule) off chance it spooks someone enough to stop fucking around... then maybe yes?" That could probably be distilled down to "no, but actually yes". I have only one laser and that's part of a light/laser (Insight M6X) for a pistol rail. Night sights/iron sights, Trijicon/ACOGs and Aimpoints (primarily) are what I actually use for aiming. I'm admittedly behind on the RDS fad 
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:14:06 PM EDT
[#28]
They are great for shooting your hand.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:17:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because five minutes on a range with a timer in hand shows that they fucking suck. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:17:45 PM EDT
[#30]
“THE GUY WITH THE LASER SURVIVED.”
I remember those cheese dick ads in the American Rifleman magazine. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:33:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Had a laser on my mossberg cruiser pistol grip. Close quarters hallway house cleaning with no intention to raise a firearm to my cheek. It excelled in that role. Point and click.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:36:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had a laser on my mossberg cruiser pistol grip. Close quarters hallway house cleaning with no intention to raise a firearm to my cheek. It excelled in that role. Point and click. Gross. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:37:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Emitting is gross. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:37:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryI’ve done a bunch of force on force with people with lights, it goes like the first image, not the second. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:38:56 PM EDT
[#35]
I was honestly thinking the same thing because of how comfortable my IR laser feels.
I can see the down side in a military application, but maybe they would be good for cops. Cops are not afraid of giving away their position. Either way, they can be fun, especially on a 22 or shotgun. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:42:29 PM EDT
[#36]
On two identical pistols, one with just iron sights, and one with iron sights and a laser, I find I am faster just using the iron sights than by trying to use the red dot on the other pistol. But it is entirely possible that I'm faster with the iron sighted only pistol because I have spent much more time shooting with iron sights than with a laser.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:43:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FPNI Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Emitting is gross. FPNI |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 3:56:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Visible lasers only provide an advantage in a very niche scenario: one where a normal sight picture cannot be obtained, such as where an obstruction prevents proper presentation. It seems that this type of situation occurs most often in real-world cases at contact distance, making the laser unnecessary, and its niche even more narrow. That being a situation where you cannot present obtain a sight picture, and the target is some distance away. Lasers absolutely do provide a benefit in this scenario beyond other sighting systems. But outside of settings that manufacture these conditions (like competition or training), such a situation would be incredibly rare. Thus, most consider the added expense (et al) of lasers to not be worth the very niche advantage they may provide in an exceedingly rare situation.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 4:24:53 PM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 8/5/2023 4:27:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Visible lasers only provide an advantage in a very niche scenario: one where a normal sight picture cannot be obtained, such as where an obstruction prevents proper presentation. It seems that this type of situation occurs most often in real-world cases at contact distance, making the laser unnecessary, and its niche even more narrow. That being a situation where you cannot present obtain a sight picture, and the target is some distance away. Lasers absolutely do provide a benefit in this scenario beyond other sighting systems. But outside of settings that manufacture these conditions (like competition or training), such a situation would be incredibly rare. Thus, most consider the added expense (et al) of lasers to not be worth the very niche advantage they may provide in an exceedingly rare situation. Vis lasers: Communication, gas masks, getting lit up by WL under nods. The last reason is the most important. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 4:27:47 PM EDT
[#41]
I have a PEQ15 on my AR. Does that count?
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Posted: 8/5/2023 4:32:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They invented new gimmicks to attach to handguns, like red dot sights  Lmao just like red dots were for rifles.. gtfo. |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 4:38:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Snubbys with useless sights are one of the few places I can understand their use. Then again getting a gun with proper sights/optics is a much better idea. I got a Mossberg Shockwave for my birthday. Never would have bought it for myself I but modified it after I got it. A laser adds a bit of functionality to an otherwise questionable tool.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:16:20 PM EDT
[#44]
If you are fighting cats it is easier to deploy than a ball of yarn.
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:27:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A visible laser is good for shooting from under a table while seated, and very few other situations where the sights can’t be used. Is fucking Greedo trying to capture you for Jabba the Hutt? |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:29:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had a laser on my mossberg cruiser pistol grip. Close quarters hallway house cleaning with no intention to raise a firearm to my cheek. It excelled in that role. Point and click. Good lord what is happening to this place. It's like every lesson learned in blood during GWOT and the vast experience of decades of competition shooting have turned into toilet paper lately |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:34:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Are you Sarah Conner?
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:44:40 PM EDT
[#48]
They are still a thing just not for us poors. Get some panoramic nods and it laser
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Posted: 8/5/2023 5:54:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't wait for a an X300 sized LEP "pointer" https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xRR9F8jgwFI/maxresdefault.jpg https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B2JQPBQV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&;th=1 |
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Posted: 8/5/2023 6:03:48 PM EDT
[#50]
I just put one on my 300blk. I have a couple of pics, but now I need to go take more.
Swapped my TLR-RM2 for a TLR-RM2 red laser, then a few days later, swapped red version for a green version. Some pros and cons, but I see more pros than cons with it. I will say this, the green is so bright at night, that it looks like something out of a movie, and yes, it points both ways. I can see how that would be horrible for the military, but as a civilian, that really isn't as much of a concern in a SD/HD situation. |
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