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Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:27:14 PM EDT
[#1]
AR15s are fine and tougher than you think, just like any machine you need to maintain it and have spare parts.

Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:28:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Money isn’t a restriction for me. I’d rather have 2 better weapons that cost more than 2 worse weapons that cost less
View Quote
@M923GreenMachine

Please define "better" for us.

Better price?
Better ergonomics?
Better modularity?
Better what?

Yes, the M-16/M-4 family has had some "failures" in it's history, but to take that article at face value, without applying any critical thought, and ignoring the input of some very knowledgeable folks commenting in this thread/on this board, I'm left to wonder if your data point of "better" is tied to price/exclusivity vs. actual practical use?

So, to help you out, let me fisk your article in a "short" version:
1) Complexity - really?  An AR is more "complex" than a Tavor or SCAR?
2) Sight height - really?  Because you can't configure an AR with optics sans carry handle, FF hand guard & no FSB?
3) Unergonomic stock/spring/buffer/unreliable cycling - really?  It's "voodoo" to match gas port size to gas tube length to buffer/spring combo? It's "impossible" to affix an ergonomic stock to it?  In what universe?
4) Gas tube fragility - really?  Why are you using an exposed gas tube?  Unless you're mag dumping on FA in excess of 800 rpm, I'm pretty sure the gas tube will be just fine in most "reasonable" configurations you might find.
5) Star chamber/bolt face - Not this $h!t again...Writer totally exposes his @$$ for the world to see on this one.
6) Extractor - L O L.  Replace the extractor/springs on schedule/as needed.  Carry a spare if you're that worried about it.  Most folks will never have to worry about it, because they will never shoot their rifle enough for it to be a factor.
8) Bullet - L O L.  5.56 NATO is a thing for a reason.  It works in multiple applications.
9) No delay in bolt moving for extraction - Again, the author exposes his @$$ for the world to see.  Look at the cam pin.  
10) Steep angle of feed - Guess he doesn't know about M4 cuts in the extension?
11) "Shits where it eats" - L O L
12) Hammer only goes to 90 degrees - LOL
13) Magazines - LOL (Hint, they're a consumable item, meaning replace them when they don't work any longer).
14) Bolt carrier doesn't have rails - L O L.  This must be why all the M14 shooters are still winning at Camp Perry.  Oh, wait, that hasn't happened in FOREVER.
15) Forward Assist - He's wrong.
16) Buffer "out of balance" - Gee, you mean a person should know about the ammo they're using, the port size on the barrel & the buffer weight/spring combo & how that can impact a weapons reliability?  
17) The constant appeal to authority in the article - sorry sweet cheeks, doesn't work on me.  I've had the pleasure to shoot a LOT of different small arms in my life. There's a reason a LOT of Tier 1 type outfits, not just US, run with M4 pattern rifles.  Hint: It's because they're very modular & they work compared to what else is available.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:29:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Well, I started to read through the "look at me" stuff, and got to the "AR design doesn't have a gas rod.." part, at which point I said fuck it.

It'd be hilarious if Shipley found the author was SV.

Anyway, article is bullshit click bait for a relatively new industry working hard on fleecing the newest flock.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:30:55 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:

AKs are unreliable trash.
View Quote
but....but AKs are the best firearm evvvrrrrr!!!

Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:31:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Commonality of parts/ammo settles this debate fairly easily.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:39:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Except it is the best rifle.
View Quote
This, especially when cost is a factor.

I have many of the other rifles. Some, like the AUG and SG 55x series, may be statistically more likely to function longer than an AR (higher MRBF and able to handle more intense firing schedules) but that comes with a weight penalty. Parts are less available for them also.

The G36 weighs the same with an optic as most ARs with no optic, but it can't sustain the firing schedule an AR can without suffering the "overheating trunnion shift" that alters your POA. (It can still keep firing much longer, you just won't hit anything.)

If you never have to expend 5+ mags all at once it's a great low-maintenance option.

I'd have no problems using any of my assault rifles in SHTF. I try to capitalize on the advantages of whatever weapon system I'm employing at the time. If they break, they break. Deal with it. Have a secondary.

If anyone's weapon fails due to cumulative rounds fired, they should have racked up enough kills (or suffered enough casualties) to have the weapons of the fallen as options. Otherwise someone's doing it wrong.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:45:24 PM EDT
[#7]
I own, or have owned many of the 5.56mm rifles out there.  To include the AR, Tavor, SCAR-L, AUG, FS2000, RFB, MCX, ARX and some that I'm sure I'm forgetting to type.

I enjoy the variety, but I always come back to the AR.

It is among the lightest, spare parts are literally everywhere, it is on the high side of average in accuracy for this rifle cohort, magazines are cheap and plentiful, it dirt simple to work on, it is reliable (see the results of the army's dust re-test), it is cost effective, and it is easily configurable.

My only real knock against it is that I can't fold the stock and stuff it in a backpack like a SCAR, MCX, or ARX, and that is pretty low on my list of priorities.

Other rifles might do one or two of those items better, but none does everything better.

It's like a Glock.  It might not do everything the best, but it places no worst than second in any category, making it the best overall.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:47:14 PM EDT
[#8]
You could easily redesign the bolt and barrel extension.

Has anyone done that?

Why not?
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:50:32 PM EDT
[#9]
So that's Jeff Kirkham, eh?
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:51:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not even gonna give that article a click

The AR 15 is a phenomenal platform

Your house isn't Nam

Get PSA uppers and lowers and spend your money on a BCG, Optic and a Light.

Save money, Save your life, save a horse ride a cowboy
View Quote
This is a valid statement
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:52:19 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
the AR is not the best rifle there is. But it's cheap, easy, good enough, light, and ammo is OK. it's a compromise, and it's barbie for men. the best? no. good enough? you betcha
View Quote
What is better?
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 3:57:00 PM EDT
[#12]
has gone through so many design iterations that people have lost count. The history of the AR-15 is a history of band-aids
View Quote
One could argue the merits of the M16A1 modifications, but the M16A2 was mostly a giant step backwards.

Since the A2, the trend has been towards shorter, free floating rails or MLOK type attachments, not changes to improve the basic design.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:01:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Posting before I read thread, cause that is always amusing.

For today's current cost from psa for a decent ar15 parts kit you can have a mag fed semi-auto 5.56 rifle that is minute of man capable to 600 yards with common m193 ammo.

Mags cost 6 to 10 bucks depending on what your preferences are and sure you can spend even more on em as well.  But mag cost is a big deal if you want to have 20 mags for your rifle.

M193 ammo is reasonably priced right now, but if looking at firearms in this caliber that is across the board so no biggy.

Now some folks will say the cheapest psa parts kit is gonna need help.  Some will just buy a parts kit that costs a bit more.  Some do not want to assemble a rifle themselves.  Some want a specific brand.

For what a prepper should want to accomplish the ar15 should be able to do it for under 500 bucks.  And that 500 bucks will cover something a bit more than the cheapest kit you can find, lower, transfer cost of lower, maybe sights if the kit does not come with all the sights.  And probably some mags as well.

Spare parts, also cheap and easy to find.  And if you did assemble your rifle you know how to change most of em but it does not really matter if you did not assemble the rifle cause the ar15 is not that hard to work on.  Spare bolt, 50 bucks at psa right now.

Buy a common gi cotton sling for 6 to 12 bucks and go take an appleseed course.

Hope you bought some 10 or 20rd mags for the appleseed course, if not go buy some.

I even tell folks to go buy a police trade in glock 22 and some ammo and some police trade in mags and a streamlight for the gun and a holster for the gun with the light on it.  And spare parts.  And ammo.

And classes for that as well.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:01:07 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You could easily redesign the bolt and barrel extension.

Has anyone done that?
View Quote
Yes, KAC did that (later sacrificing interchangeability for greater longevity with their E3 bolt & barrel extension).
A standard AR bolt can be used with the E3 barrel extension, but the opposite is not true.

LMT also offers an "enhanced bolt", but it utilizes standard barrel extensions.

I'm sure there are other companies' redesigns I'm forgetting.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:01:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I didn't really like my mini-14 when I had it, but taking it apart it certainly didn't seem like there was much to break on it.
View Quote
CHP used Mini14s in the '80s, but they were not up to service use.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:03:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I’d rather have a rifle that won’t break down as often to need parts. And if it’s that bad and hard to find parts for a Tavor or scar then there will be plenty of guns laying around to pick up
View Quote
How are the Tavor or SCAR better?
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:07:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Read the article.  It's nonsense.

Mechanically speaking, like every physical tool in the world it has strong points and a few weak points. But the weak points are not that significant and the platform is robust overall.  Our military shoots the hell out of these things and they don't have a high rate of breakages.  We have AR owners here that shoot thousands and thousands of rounds through their rifle with no issue.

Whatever minor weaknesses the AR might have, you have to keep in mind that any other platform is also going to have it's weak points as well. Also, the cost/performance ratio of the weapon is excellent and spare parts are ubiquitous and cheap.  If you're worried about breakages, stock some extra parts or at the price points of these guns, buy an extra weapon or two.

Incidentally, in a real SHTF situation if you find yourself firing thousands and thousands of rounds through your weapon such that it breaks ..... you're doing it wrong.
View Quote
In competition shooting, the switch from M1A to AR15 in Highpower resulted in much longer rifle life. ARs shoot and shoot and don't break.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:12:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:14:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Yep.
View Quote
I might have to buy an AK to spice up my life.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:18:23 PM EDT
[#20]
A shotgun is better because it has more knock down power and a better chance of hitting due to there being multiple projectiles.

Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:20:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My only real knock against it is that I can't fold the stock and stuff it in a backpack like a SCAR, MCX, or ARX, and that is pretty low on my list of priorities.

Other rifles might do one or two of those items better, but none does everything better.

It's like a Glock.  It might not do everything the best, but it places no worst than second in any category, making it the best overall.
View Quote
You could if you get a LAW folding stock adaptor.

I neglected to mention the F2000.
It's a great competitor to the M4, but the trigger is not easily improved upon (unlike the M4) and in general I prefer the AUG due to better/quicker access to the operating parts. F2000 weighs less however, and is ambidextrous from the factory. (A case deflector generally solves this problem for the AUG).

I really want to try the F90, which is a lighter AUG with more rail space where it's needed for lights/lasers. It gives up the QD barrel, but that's worth it for the reduction in weight.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:22:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

You're missing my point.  It's less about what you're going to swap in the field and more about what you will be able to fix over time.

Personally I've got 30+ AR's.  If one goes down (and I don't have the part needed laying around), it's parts for the others.  
View Quote
I remember the pictures from the cartel ambush of the Mexican police convoy.

One pic was of an M4 that had taken a bullet and was left behind. The intact firearms were taken by the cartel, but the damaged M4 was left behind. It could have been used for parts.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:27:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Apparently the author knows even less about rifles than he does combat medicine.
View Quote
lol, exactly.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:29:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It is really good to have a few but when shtf.. AK time.
View Quote
That's gay.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:32:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Excerpts from the article

In the military we are taught that the AR-15 is a fine weapon "as long as you maintain it." In truth, the design works (80% of the time) in spite of itself, and has gone through so many design iterations that people have lost count.  The history of the AR-15 is a history of band-aids

The front sight assembly sits ridiculously high because the straight (non-ergonomic) stock has to contain a massive spring and buffer assembly. If the weight or spring compression in that assembly is off just a small amount, it causes malfunction. This design flaw, right out of the gate, causes a huge mechanical offset where the eye lines up around three inches higher than the barrel. That's why in 2019 you can't find a new AR-15 with an old school front sight assembly

The gas tube is thin, fragile and subject to bending or breakingusually taking the rifle out of commission.

???????

The star chamber and bolt face are perhaps the single biggest design flaw of the AR-15.  That's the eight-petaled flower at the front of the bolt. Flowers don't belong in assault rifles. Some say the star chamber provides accuracy. It does not. Bolt-action sniper rifles don't have star chambers. They have two or three lug bolts and they are the gold standard for accuracy.

There is no delay in the bolt moving during the extraction phase and this causes tremendous mechanical resistance. When the bolt carrier begins to move, it tries immediately to turn the bolt without first gaining momentum. If the bolt is stuck to the inside of the chamber due to fouling (or crap ammo like in Vietnam) then there is often not enough energy to knock the bolt back into rotation. There's no "running start" to dislodge the bullet before turning the bolt. Almost all battle rifles, like the M14, M1 and AK use a delayed rotating bolt. The mass of the bolt carrier, once in motion, wants to stay in motion and hits the bolt like a hammer, knocking it into rotation and into extraction. Not so for the AR-15.

The extractor, due to its design has issues because it is similar to a teeter-totter that is out of balance. This causes the extractor to want to slip off the rim of the casing causing failure to extract malfunctions. This is particularly evident when the chamber gets fouled from use in combat conditions. Almost all infantry soldiers carry cleaning rods to clear this brutal malfunction so they can knock a spent casing out of the chamber and get back in the fight.
View Quote
That is fucking retarded.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:34:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It is really good to have a few but when shtf.. AK time.
View Quote
I like the cut of your jib.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:36:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It is really good to have a few but when shtf.. AK time.
View Quote
Really?

Really?!?!?!!!??

I am going to guess you were never deployed in the middle East in a combat arms capacity.......
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:45:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Tales from a 1980s gunstore counter!
View Quote
Only if he managed to use the term Poodle Shooter in the article
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:52:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I demand gel tests!
View Quote
Nooooo!

Jello shots!
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:52:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nothing, they are inferior in every way to even cheaper ARs.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

What makes a Tavor better than an AR 15?
Nothing, they are inferior in every way to even cheaper ARs.
A Tavor IS shorter than an M-4gery.
That is important to some folks, and not to others.

Don’t let the your AR-worship blind you to everything...

ETA:  I don’t have a Tavor, nor do I have any plans to get one.  I am pointing out, that in at least one way, the Tavor could be considered “better”.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:55:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No one is going to find anything laying around. This isn't a video game.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Just curious, but how many spare parts do you think you will find laying around for that Tavor or SCAR?
No one is going to find anything laying around. This isn't a video game.
I found a cool flashlight the other day, YMMV.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:56:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What other weapons of its class have you experienced that you think are better than the AR15?

the guys at Little Creek seem to think the Mini14 is preferable.
View Quote
So did the A Team. Too bad they couldnt hit shit with it
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:57:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Star chamber? Who still talks like that?
View Quote
Pogues,  that's who.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 4:57:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

A Tavor IS shorter than an M-4gery.
That is important to some folks, and not to others.

Don’t let the your AR-worship blind you to everything...
View Quote
Well, there is that.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:00:38 PM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:01:42 PM EDT
[#36]
I would take any of my ARs over an AK any day of the week. Also, I have a Robinson XCR, so I guess that makes me basically invincible. Just because TSHTF doesn't mean I'm going to stop caring for my weapons, and I have plenty of AR (and AK, and XCR, and every other gun I own) spares.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:04:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Well OP, while I certainly like other rifles better than the AR, there are a ton of people here who fervently believe the AR is absolutely perfect.  They will be along shortly to say so...

ETA:  I wonder about the “spare parts” argument.  In 10’s of thousands of rounds, I’m trying to think of a single time I needed to replace a part that actually broke.
Battlefield Vegas has a schedule for AR parts replacement, but it starts at something like 5,000 rounds, which is a lifetime in SHTF.
Parts for most rifles can be pretty inexpensive, so you can have a small stock of parts before SHTF.

And no, I’m not wasting any time on the article.
View Quote
When we deployed to Iraq I was part of a detail unboxing and inspecting brand new M4s.  That was 9 years ago, but there were at least two with one or more broken bolt lugs, right out of the box.

AR15 still comes out on top of the heap and will continue to do so for the next 30 years.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:17:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:21:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Nope, Larry Vickers went straight from AIT to Jump School to SF.
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DAng. When did he go through? I really have no idea. Was never much of a follower
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:22:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Why would you use a firearm in a SHTF situation that would be hard as hell to scrounge basic replacement parts for including magazines? The AR is probably the easiest rifle you'll ever find to scrounge parts for if you prepped and the SHTF plus the cheapest to stockpile a few parts for.
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…..aaaaaand we have a winner!
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:22:40 PM EDT
[#41]
It seems whenever these criticisms come up, they usually cherry-pick bottom of the barrel ARs and compare them to top of the line Other-Rifles.

PSA vs SCAR? Obvious.

SCAR vs KAC? HK? That’s a lot more fair.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:24:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A Tavor IS shorter than an M-4gery.
That is important to some folks, and not to others.

Don’t let the your AR-worship blind you to everything...

ETA:  I don’t have a Tavor, nor do I have any plans to get one.  I am pointing out, that in at least one way, the Tavor could be considered “better”.
View Quote
If that's a "better" criteria for a person, then I'd advocate either SBR or AR pistol before the x95.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:27:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Posting before I read thread, cause that is

Buy a common gi cotton sling for 6 to 12 bucks and go take an appleseed course.
View Quote
Good advice that makes any rifle better.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:33:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You could easily redesign the bolt and barrel extension.

Has anyone done that?

Why not?
View Quote
SR-15.

Which is simply an already excellent design (AR standard) refined to be simply superb.

For the most part, redesigning them is not remotely needed.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:34:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Well, I guess I better go buy one of those $700 Chinese SKSs that Arfcom is ogling about...
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:37:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A Tavor IS shorter than an M-4gery.
That is important to some folks, and not to others.

Don't let the your AR-worship blind you to everything...

ETA:  I don't have a Tavor, nor do I have any plans to get one.  I am pointing out, that in at least one way, the Tavor could be considered "better".
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What makes a Tavor better than an AR 15?
Nothing, they are inferior in every way to even cheaper ARs.
A Tavor IS shorter than an M-4gery.
That is important to some folks, and not to others.

Don't let the your AR-worship blind you to everything...

ETA:  I don't have a Tavor, nor do I have any plans to get one.  I am pointing out, that in at least one way, the Tavor could be considered "better".
But that one thing, longer barrel in a shorter overall package, comes with some heavy drawbacks.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:43:27 PM EDT
[#47]
Same douchebag that is trying to cause a panic about CATS so he can sell more of his garbage tourniquets.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:43:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

but....but AKs are the best firearm evvvrrrrr!!!

http://i.imgur.com/2w29d.jpg
View Quote
I got tetanus just looking at that picture.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:48:11 PM EDT
[#49]
I will also toss this out.....I consider it a BIG plus.

Toss a .22 conversion unit and a dope sheet for your scope or sight and a brick of ammo and you have one rifle that can shoot both 5.56 and .22 rimfire as needed. And 500 rounds of cheap, light, reasonably quiet ammo for foraging is a damn good idea to me in a SHTF situation.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 5:49:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Double
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