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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:50:52 AM EST
[#1]
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:53:56 AM EST
[#2]
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Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Moon landing? Thats a gov lie!  
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Posted: 12/29/2015 2:24:22 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? There's a sweet animation |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:08:53 AM EST
[#4]
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Five Requirements: Accurate Target Location Accurate Battery (Gun) Location Accurate Ammunition and Weapon Information Accurate Met (Weather) Info Accurate Computational Procedures Rotation of the Earth doesn't matter. Wind direction/speed and drift of the round due to the spinning of the round are taken into consideration. If you account for all 5 of the variables above you can be very accurate in regards to POI and TOT. Manually calculated gunnery can be accurate, computers make it easier. Look in your TFT again latitude and direction of fire do matter. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:39:34 AM EST
[#5]
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Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Depends on what kind of orbit we want them in. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:40:29 AM EST
[#6]
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Look in your TFT again latitude and direction of fire do matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Five Requirements: Accurate Target Location Accurate Battery (Gun) Location Accurate Ammunition and Weapon Information Accurate Met (Weather) Info Accurate Computational Procedures Rotation of the Earth doesn't matter. Wind direction/speed and drift of the round due to the spinning of the round are taken into consideration. If you account for all 5 of the variables above you can be very accurate in regards to POI and TOT. Manually calculated gunnery can be accurate, computers make it easier. Look in your TFT again latitude and direction of fire do matter. thank god you posted. I was terrified that the stupidity had given you an aneurism and you died. I am only partially kidding. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:43:55 AM EST
[#7]
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thank god you posted. I was terrified that the stupidity had given you an aneurism and you died. I am only partially kidding. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Five Requirements: Accurate Target Location Accurate Battery (Gun) Location Accurate Ammunition and Weapon Information Accurate Met (Weather) Info Accurate Computational Procedures Rotation of the Earth doesn't matter. Wind direction/speed and drift of the round due to the spinning of the round are taken into consideration. If you account for all 5 of the variables above you can be very accurate in regards to POI and TOT. Manually calculated gunnery can be accurate, computers make it easier. Look in your TFT again latitude and direction of fire do matter. thank god you posted. I was terrified that the stupidity had given you an aneurism and you died. I am only partially kidding. On a scale of 1 to 10, this is only a 5 in in aneurism inducing capability, I have read some 10s in the last several days which really has me question humanity and the gun culture. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:49:59 AM EST
[#8]
But you are, in the words of others, the most knowledgeable person on artillery gunnery in the DoD.
Although links to your 10s would be interesting to see. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 6:53:17 AM EST
[#9]
Relative frames of reference.
If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 7:09:40 AM EST
[#10]
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But you are, in the words of others, the most knowledgeable person on artillery gunnery in the DoD. FDC and PSI are pretty good. Guns that do their own technical fire direction, PGMs and guidance assistance for every round fired will render gunnery a dying art. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 7:10:53 AM EST
[#11]
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FDC and PSI are pretty good. Guns that do their own technical fire direction, PGMs and guidance assistance for every round fired will render gunnery a dying art. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But you are, in the words of others, the most knowledgeable person on artillery gunnery in the DoD. FDC and PSI are pretty good. Guns that do their own technical fire direction, PGMs and guidance assistance for every round fired will render gunnery a dying art. tragically. Because if we ever do fight a real war, those toys won't be available. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 7:12:31 AM EST
[#12]
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 7:15:04 AM EST
[#13]
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Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. Don't worry someone will be here to argue with you in a second! I want to see your 10s. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 9:48:48 AM EST
[#14]
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Depends on what kind of orbit we want them in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Depends on what kind of orbit we want them in. Nerd 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 9:51:32 AM EST
[#15]
Left hand or right hand twist?
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:04:00 AM EST
[#16]
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Nerd
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Depends on what kind of orbit we want them in. Nerd
Information Dominance! 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:18:42 AM EST
[#17]
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You don't quite get it compared to that video because that video is wrong and you are right. It makes no difference which direction you fire east/west it will go the same distance and take the same amount of time. Everything is moving in relation to the earth so the forces cancel as if there is no rotation. If we were talking north/south firing that's a different story (always aim left!). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I just don't quite get it. I'll use simplified speeds to articulate what I'm not understanding. If you shoot with the rotation of the earth and the earths speed is 400mph, the bullets speed relative to the firearm is 200mph, the firearm is already traveling at 400mph. So you are at 400mph and fire, the bullet is now going 400mph+200mph. You're now at 600mph but the Earth is still rotating at 400mph so you subtract 400mph and you're back at 200mph relative to the Earth. If you shoot against the rotation the gun is traveling at -400mph. Shoot and you ad 200mph. You're now at -200mph but the Earth is moving towards the bullet at 400mph so you ad that and you're still at 200mph relative to the Earth. You don't quite get it compared to that video because that video is wrong and you are right. It makes no difference which direction you fire east/west it will go the same distance and take the same amount of time. Everything is moving in relation to the earth so the forces cancel as if there is no rotation. If we were talking north/south firing that's a different story (always aim left!). this is my tarded logic but since the earth is round the bullet would travel higher up where the air is spinning faster. making a net gain, loss or deflection respectively. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:19:46 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Up. Because that's where space is 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:31:47 AM EST
[#19]
We're gonna need a bigger treadmill.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:33:04 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:40:01 AM EST
[#21]
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OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Wrong. The shell is independent of the earths rotation when not physically attached to it. RON could explain it, I am sure. I am not a fan of the appeal to authority. Its a logical fallacy. But when it comes to artillery, whatever RON says is correct. Full stop. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:43:45 AM EST
[#22]
Coriolis Effect...google it for your answer.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:50:15 AM EST
[#23]
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Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. Which direction do we launch most rockets to orbit? And why? That's a completely apples to oranges comparison. The frames of reference are completely different. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 10:57:43 AM EST
[#24]
Requires relativistic spacetime analysis. There is no universal frame of space reference. The earth is spinning, and it is also rotating around the sun. The solar system is rotating around the center of the milky way. The milky way is moving as well. Furthest relative to what ?
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Posted: 12/29/2015 11:16:51 AM EST
[#25]
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OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 11:33:58 AM EST
[#26]
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Space rockets are launched towards the east because they get the boost from the Earth's rotation. It should be the same for bullets. . its not, one accelerating, ones not. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 11:45:16 AM EST
[#27]
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its not, one accelerating, ones not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Space rockets are launched towards the east because they get the boost from the Earth's rotation. It should be the same for bullets. . its not, one accelerating, ones not. What does acceleration have to do with it? But if you're concerned with acceleration, let's take it at the point of engine cutoff. The rocket is going to travel further along the ground going east than going west. Fire a bullet from that point in space, it's also going to travel further east than west. Some may say, "But you're in space now, that makes a big difference!" Actually it doesn't. The laws of physics work exactly the same 100 miles up as they do at ground level. The only difference would be the air, but as I said before, drag would only reduce the effects by lowering the flight time, it would not eliminate the effects. Others have said it's the Eötvös effect. As far as I understand it, it would cause the flight time of a bullet to be every so slightly longer fired towards the east than the west, right? |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 11:50:52 AM EST
[#28]
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only if it went north south Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Coriolis Effect...maybe. Came here to post this. only if it went north south Wrong all directions of are effected by Coriolis, north and south will cause the hit to be right fired in the northern hemisphere. East and west the greatest effect is seen as high or low. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 11:52:21 AM EST
[#29]
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OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Already posted on page 2. Eötvös Effect. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 12:21:24 PM EST
[#30]
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You are not correct. If it applies to east/west, which direction do you aim? Why? You don't aim up or down because it doesn't effect it! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I just don't quite get it. I'll use simplified speeds to articulate what I'm not understanding. If you shoot with the rotation of the earth and the earths speed is 400mph, the bullets speed relative to the firearm is 200mph, the firearm is already traveling at 400mph. So you are at 400mph and fire, the bullet is now going 400mph+200mph. You're now at 600mph but the Earth is still rotating at 400mph so you subtract 400mph and you're back at 200mph relative to the Earth. If you shoot against the rotation the gun is traveling at -400mph. Shoot and you ad 200mph. You're now at -200mph but the Earth is moving towards the bullet at 400mph so you ad that and you're still at 200mph relative to the Earth. You don't quite get it compared to that video because that video is wrong and you are right. It makes no difference which direction you fire east/west it will go the same distance and take the same amount of time. Everything is moving in relation to the earth so the forces cancel as if there is no rotation. If we were talking north/south firing that's a different story (always aim left!). The coriolis effect still applies in East-West shooting. It applies in every direction. In the Northern hemisphere, always aim left. In the Southern, always aim right. You are not correct. If it applies to east/west, which direction do you aim? Why? You don't aim up or down because it doesn't effect it! You need to spend about 30 seconds with almost any ballistic app that corrects for coriolis. Want the formula for calculating vertical coriolis(east west) go read Litz' book.I one example he uses a 155gr projectile traveling at 3000fps over 1000yards the drop difference is 6", so yes it would travel farther, less drop is essentially traveling farther. East shots would be higher though not west. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 12:32:48 PM EST
[#31]
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Except your target does not move in relation to the projectile. That's the point we are trying to make. If you're in a car going 60 and you throw the ball to your friend in the front seat does the ball go 60 plus the speed of earth? No. You are all traveling the same speed in reference to the earth (assuming you are travelling east/west). Those forces all cancel out, which is why there is no Coriolis effect on E/W shots. Front seat speed = 60 + earth speed Back seat speed = 60 + earth speed Ball = 60 + throw velocity + earth speed How is the target travelling towards the ball/projectile? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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FA firing solutions don't account for it. <-- Was Field Artillery FDC (Fire Direction Control) 13D Wrong. It absolutely does. Ever work a Christmas Tree? It's on it. Guess why firing data computers need to know the grid zone designator of where you are. It's so it can properly correct for the Earth's rotation. Anyone who is saying the Coriolis effect isn't a consideration in artillery and was in the 13 series didn't learn their job well. If we have to compensate for Coriolis with extreme long range in rifles, you better believe that it is a factor for artillery and mortars. I've called in a bunch of artillery and mortars, as I was in 3 different Scout Sniper Platoons. Of course, we didn't have to worry about Coriolis as observers, but I know they calculate it in the FDC. Coriolis also has to be taken into consideration no matter what direction you're shooting. It affects both elevation and windage. If you are shooting north to south or south to north, you will have a full value windage factor for Coriolis because where you were aiming has moved to the east. If you shoot east to west, your target is moving to the east in relation to your projectile's trajectory, so you need less elevation. The opposite is true when you shoot from west to east, because the target is moving away from the trajectory. Time of Flight is one factor in Coriolis, as is azimuth to target. In Extreme Long Range shooting, we get a registered shot and correct from there, but if there is time to calculate Coriolis, POI will be closer to the target. With indirect fires, the same can be accomplished with a correction, but since the distances are so much farther, especially with artillery, it's important to have an accurate first round register and not one that was fired without a Coriolis calc. I think FDC computers have had integral software that includes Coriolis for decades now, but I wasn't 13 series, so I'll defer to them. Except your target does not move in relation to the projectile. That's the point we are trying to make. If you're in a car going 60 and you throw the ball to your friend in the front seat does the ball go 60 plus the speed of earth? No. You are all traveling the same speed in reference to the earth (assuming you are travelling east/west). Those forces all cancel out, which is why there is no Coriolis effect on E/W shots. Front seat speed = 60 + earth speed Back seat speed = 60 + earth speed Ball = 60 + throw velocity + earth speed How is the target travelling towards the ball/projectile? The target does move, the earth(has the target connected to it) moves under the bullet. The target is moving up shooting west or down shooting east in relation to the poa because the earth is a rotating sphere. The target has moved up and towards you from the point in time you fired when shooting west. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 12:47:49 PM EST
[#32]
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OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Told ya so.. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 12:48:29 PM EST
[#33]
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its not, one accelerating, ones not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Space rockets are launched towards the east because they get the boost from the Earth's rotation. It should be the same for bullets. . its not, one accelerating, ones not. Both accelerate 
Science! |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 12:58:37 PM EST
[#34]
Long range shooting
Despite being associated with Coriolis, the phenomenon that actually affect the vertical component of the trajectory is called Eötvös Effect. The rotation of the Earth generates a centrifugal force, the same that pushes you to the side when you make a sharp turn with your car. This force act perpendicular to the Earth rotatory axis, adding or subtracting to the gravity force. When an object flies eastward, in the same direction of Earth’s rotation, centrifugal force acts opposite of gravity, pushing it away from the Earth’s surface. If the object flies westward, in the opposite direction of the Earth rotation, centrifugal force pushes the object toward the ground concurrently to gravity force. Thus, bullets fired to the east always fly a little higher, and, conversely, bullets fired to the west always travel somewhat low. So it does matter, but not because the earth is spinning under the bullet or shell. The atmosphere is moving with the sphere also - so the shell is still relative to the surface of the earth. Satellites do benefit from being launched in consideration of the earths rotation because they are eventually leaving the atmosphere and that initial velocity is useful. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:02:35 PM EST
[#35]
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These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg I posted the same tables on page 2, yet they dismissed me out of hand. Those of us who've spent a career in the field artillery should just bow out to the experts who've never even laid a hand on an artillery piece. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:42:37 PM EST
[#36]
It's GD. If it defies academics assumptions, it's wrong. Never mind those with actual practical application, outside of the cube farm, or basement. 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:52:41 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. The shell is independent of the earths rotation when not physically attached to it. RON could explain it, I am sure. I am not a fan of the appeal to authority. Its a logical fallacy. But when it comes to artillery, whatever RON says is correct. Full stop. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. Wrong. The shell is independent of the earths rotation when not physically attached to it. RON could explain it, I am sure. I am not a fan of the appeal to authority. Its a logical fallacy. But when it comes to artillery, whatever RON says is correct. Full stop. What? The shell is traveling the same speed at the gun before it is fired, relative to the center of the Earth. It then travel 2500 fps (or whatever) faster when it is fired, relative to the center of the Earth. That's momentum. (And, incidentally, is why they launch space vehicles from W to E, as close to the equator as possible. Doing so adds momentum to the spacecraft relative to the center of the Earth. Orbital velocity at any altitude is determined by velocity relative to the center of mass.) |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 2:34:15 PM EST
[#38]
The example we use to demonstrate (and a vast simplification) the effect is "if are on a stage and you throw a foot ball at someone standing at the edge, if you throw the ball at them as they fall off that stage do you aim at the same point? No you aim further to compensate for that fall, similarly if you throw that ball at someone coming up the stairs to the stage, do you aim at the same point, no you aim short because they will close some of the distance.
We normally use to tell the Lt's during their Gunnery training to just push the "I believe button" and follow the TFT, some could figure it and some just never will. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 2:35:12 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg What I see there corroborates what I said. At any range, and any latitude, when the target is at 0° Azimuth, there is no correction for Coriolis Effect. Latitude does affect the correction amount, but only at non-zero azimuths. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 2:52:37 PM EST
[#40]
I havent opened a TFT in a while, but im 100% sure there is an artillery table showing the effect of the earths rotation on a rounds travel. Pretty sure it gains distance shooting against the spin of the earth.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 2:55:12 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm definitely wrong about stuff all the time and the last time I touched a TFT was 2008 so I'd like to know the correct answer. Learning manual gunnery was actually pretty interesting as a gun-nut. People either loved it or hated it with a majority not caring for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Five Requirements: Accurate Target Location Accurate Battery (Gun) Location Accurate Ammunition and Weapon Information Accurate Met (Weather) Info Accurate Computational Procedures Rotation of the Earth doesn't matter. Wind direction/speed and drift of the round due to the spinning of the round are taken into consideration. If you account for all 5 of the variables above you can be very accurate in regards to POI and TOT. Manually calculated gunnery can be accurate, computers make it easier. lol Instead of laughing tell us the science. Your screen name sez you know it. I'm definitely wrong about stuff all the time and the last time I touched a TFT was 2008 so I'd like to know the correct answer. Learning manual gunnery was actually pretty interesting as a gun-nut. People either loved it or hated it with a majority not caring for it. Manual Gunnery is the debil 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 2:59:56 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What I see there corroborates what I said. At any range, and any latitude, when the target is at 0° Azimuth, there is no correction for Coriolis Effect. Latitude does affect the correction amount, but only at non-zero azimuths. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Relative frames of reference. If you understand that, you'll know that the answer is 'No difference.' Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg What I see there corroborates what I said. At any range, and any latitude, when the target is at 0° Azimuth, there is no correction for Coriolis Effect. Latitude does affect the correction amount, but only at non-zero azimuths. Because at zero degrees you would NOT compensate for range, rather you would compensate deflection.(I believe that is the term) Please, for the love of all that is holy and pure, do not argue with RON on the subject of artillery. The baby Jesus just curb stomped an angel for crying out loud, and RON, I believe, isn't even Christian (my apologies if I am wrong on that) |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:12:26 PM EST
[#43]
Because the artillery piece is already moving at 1000 mph (and so is the atmosphere and ground) there is no difference.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:18:48 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think he is implying it would not fall straight down, which is incorrect If there is no other forces acting on it, of course it would fall straight down. The bullet is moving at the speed of the earths rotation before, during and after it is shot. There is no reason to think it would drift if there are no other external forces acting upon it. You can't just say something happens without proof. If something is changing the initial velocity of the bullet (the speed of the earths rotation) what is it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: As a Gunnery Instructor I wish I had a real keyboard. There's just too much fuck in this thread to type with my thumb. I'll make this simple. Take away every variable that must be compensated for except rotation of the Earth. No wind direction/speed, no air density, no humidity, no temperature, no centripetal drift of the projectile. No anything other than the rotation of the Earth. Fire a round perfectly straight up. When it comes back down and impacts, is it east or west of the point from which it was fired? There's your answer. That's not an answer  Dumb it down a bit more please? I think he is implying it would not fall straight down, which is incorrect If there is no other forces acting on it, of course it would fall straight down. The bullet is moving at the speed of the earths rotation before, during and after it is shot. There is no reason to think it would drift if there are no other external forces acting upon it. You can't just say something happens without proof. If something is changing the initial velocity of the bullet (the speed of the earths rotation) what is it? |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:27:54 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We normally use to tell the Lt's during their Gunnery training to just push the "I believe button" and follow the TFT, some could figure it and some just never will. lol I haven't heard that term since my nuke training in the early 90's. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:33:55 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because at zero degrees you would NOT compensate for range, rather you would compensate deflection.(I believe that is the term) Please, for the love of all that is holy and pure, do not argue with RON on the subject of artillery. The baby Jesus just curb stomped an angel for crying out loud, and RON, I believe, isn't even Christian (my apologies if I am wrong on that) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg What I see there corroborates what I said. At any range, and any latitude, when the target is at 0° Azimuth, there is no correction for Coriolis Effect. Latitude does affect the correction amount, but only at non-zero azimuths. Because at zero degrees you would NOT compensate for range, rather you would compensate deflection.(I believe that is the term) Please, for the love of all that is holy and pure, do not argue with RON on the subject of artillery. The baby Jesus just curb stomped an angel for crying out loud, and RON, I believe, isn't even Christian (my apologies if I am wrong on that) I'm not arguing with RON. I'm honestly trying to understand why the facts and figures agree with me, yet I'm being told I'm wrong. Maybe I'm forgetting about the effects of air resistance. (TBF, I haven't looked at the Shuszengrupfinneaglin effect quoted a few pages back... Also, the title of this thread is: Will artillery fly farther when fired into or away from the direction of Earth's rotation? |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:35:37 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless the projectile exits the atmosphere it won't make a difference. THIS, so unless you have some MIRV projectiles it doesn't matter. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:48:07 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except your target does not move in relation to the projectile. That's the point we are trying to make. If you're in a car going 60 and you throw the ball to your friend in the front seat does the ball go 60 plus the speed of earth? No. You are all traveling the same speed in reference to the earth (assuming you are travelling east/west). Those forces all cancel out, which is why there is no Coriolis effect on E/W shots. Front seat speed = 60 + earth speed Back seat speed = 60 + earth speed Ball = 60 + throw velocity + earth speed How is the target travelling towards the ball/projectile? The car is going 60 and turning left (like the Earth is rotating.) The ball is going 60mph in that turn, until you throw it, then it's going 60 + throwing speed in a straight line while the car is still turning. If you aim at the driver, it will hit the passenger. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:51:14 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not arguing with RON. I'm honestly trying to understand why the facts and figures agree with me, yet I'm being told I'm wrong. Maybe I'm forgetting about the effects of air resistance. (TBF, I haven't looked at the Shuszengrupfinneaglin effect quoted a few pages back...
Also, the title of this thread is: Will artillery fly farther when fired into or away from the direction of Earth's rotation? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Except for it actually does make a difference in ability to have effects on a target if you don't take into account rotation. We have only been doing long range gunnery for about 100 years and in the 1940s the first computers were invented to help solve for the firing solutions leading to tabular firing tables that contained pre-solved gunnery solutions. OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? What about a shell fired due east or due west at different latitudes? I understand the Coriolis effect, and how the relative rotational speed decreases at the poles relative to the equator. So in that case, when the shell is fired in any direction EXCEPT due east or due west, then yes, the time to target would change. These are from AM2 tabular firing tables for the HE, M107 family of projectiles * For FDC and other 08xx and 13x series the reason I used near obsolete tables was they were the only ones I had sitting on my desk.* http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT1_zps417zsiao.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT2_zpsetjorvib.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/TFT3_zpsjx7h1vxw.jpg What I see there corroborates what I said. At any range, and any latitude, when the target is at 0° Azimuth, there is no correction for Coriolis Effect. Latitude does affect the correction amount, but only at non-zero azimuths. Because at zero degrees you would NOT compensate for range, rather you would compensate deflection.(I believe that is the term) Please, for the love of all that is holy and pure, do not argue with RON on the subject of artillery. The baby Jesus just curb stomped an angel for crying out loud, and RON, I believe, isn't even Christian (my apologies if I am wrong on that) I'm not arguing with RON. I'm honestly trying to understand why the facts and figures agree with me, yet I'm being told I'm wrong. Maybe I'm forgetting about the effects of air resistance. (TBF, I haven't looked at the Shuszengrupfinneaglin effect quoted a few pages back...
Also, the title of this thread is: Will artillery fly farther when fired into or away from the direction of Earth's rotation? you brought it up, not me. |
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Posted: 12/29/2015 3:53:39 PM EST
[#50]
It's the reason why Enfields have left handed rifling
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