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Posted: 12/29/2015 5:16:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's the reason why Enfields have left handed rifling Unless they're taken to Australia, when they have to have the rifling recalibrated. It's a labor-intensive process, though, as they have to manually straighten the rifling and twist the opposite direction. It would be easier to simply switch barrels, but then you have to carry both barrels with you. It's much more streamlined for the company armorer to have a rifling realignment tool in the arms room. Of course, if the rifleman has to engage a target on the Equator, he just has to hope the target either stands still or moves in the direction which correlates to the barrel installed in his rifle. 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 5:26:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Did you know that an aircraft traveling due west at approximately 1000 miles per hour is basically hovering.
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Posted: 12/29/2015 5:38:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless they're taken to Australia, when they have to have the rifling recalibrated. It's a labor-intensive process, though, as they have to manually straighten the rifling and twist the opposite direction. It would be easier to simply switch barrels, but then you have to carry both barrels with you. It's much more streamlined for the company armorer to have a rifling realignment tool in the arms room. Of course, if the rifleman has to engage a target on the Equator, he just has to hope the target either stands still or moves in the direction which correlates to the barrel installed in his rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's the reason why Enfields have left handed rifling Unless they're taken to Australia, when they have to have the rifling recalibrated. It's a labor-intensive process, though, as they have to manually straighten the rifling and twist the opposite direction. It would be easier to simply switch barrels, but then you have to carry both barrels with you. It's much more streamlined for the company armorer to have a rifling realignment tool in the arms room. Of course, if the rifleman has to engage a target on the Equator, he just has to hope the target either stands still or moves in the direction which correlates to the barrel installed in his rifle. Being on the Western side of the European mainland, some boffins figured out all Britains conflicts would be fought in an easterly direction. It made no difference though
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Posted: 12/29/2015 8:16:03 PM EDT
[#4]
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lol I haven't heard that term since my nuke training in the early 90's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We normally use to tell the Lt's during their Gunnery training to just push the "I believe button" and follow the TFT, some could figure it and some just never will. lol I haven't heard that term since my nuke training in the early 90's. We used it in tech core for the people who just couldn't understand. |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 10:54:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here?
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Posted: 12/30/2015 10:57:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here? Physics. |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 11:51:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Physics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here? Physics. Gunnery. |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 11:52:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gunnery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here? Physics. Gunnery. Which is apparently better learned from GD novices, rather than Fort Sill or career artillerymen. 
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Posted: 12/31/2015 2:56:28 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gunnery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here? Physics. Gunnery. Which is the practical application of ballistics so that the desired effects are obtained by fire. Quoted:
OK, educate me. If the gun is moving 660 mph relative to Earth's center, and the shell is fired east or west at the equator, the shell does not travel any further than if the Earth wasn't rotating at all. Doesn't matter if the gun's position moves towards the target or away from the target relative to the shell, since the shell's velocity has been increased or decreased the exact same amount relative to the Earth's center. Right? You are correct in that the position of the gun doesn't matter after firing. You are not considering the location of the target before or after firing. The Army calculates firing data based on the distance between the gun and the target. Further, the standard conditions the Army assumes include the earth not rotating. So say the target is 2000 m from the gun. We could pull an elevation from the TFT that would let the gun fire 2000 m under standard conditions. Since the earth is spinning, the achieved range would be more or less than 2000 m; depending on which direction the gun was fired. That brings us to the question posed by the OP. If fired in the direction of the rotation of the earth, the achieved range will be less than the firing data under standard conditions. If fired against the direction of the rotation of the earth, the achieved range will be further than predicted under standard conditions. The OP is poorly phrased. The projectile does not fly shorter or further relative to the gun's position when fired. But it does impact shorter or further relative to the target, which is what we really care about. |
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Posted: 12/31/2015 3:14:22 AM EDT
[#10]
I think you said what I said earlier...
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Posted: 12/31/2015 3:24:47 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Five Requirements: Accurate Target Location Accurate Battery (Gun) Location Accurate Ammunition and Weapon Information Accurate Met (Weather) Info Accurate Computational Procedures Rotation of the Earth doesn't matter. Wind direction/speed and drift of the round due to the spinning of the round are taken into consideration. If you account for all 5 of the variables above you can be very accurate in regards to POI and TOT. Manually calculated gunnery can be accurate, computers make it easier. Fuck manual gunnery. I had all the TFT's and battle axes I can take. |
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Posted: 12/31/2015 3:40:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Enough with the math...big gun go boom!
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Posted: 12/31/2015 4:09:47 AM EDT
[#13]
Is it on a treadmill though?
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Posted: 12/31/2015 12:46:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it on a treadmill though? 
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. |
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Posted: 12/31/2015 12:51:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Magnets, treadmills, and now the earth's rotation. My head is spinning.
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Posted: 12/31/2015 1:40:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this is my tarded logic but since the earth is round the bullet would travel higher up where the air is spinning faster. making a net gain, loss or deflection respectively. QFP, and as possible sigline candidate as a single-post distillation/crystallization of GD. 
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Posted: 1/2/2016 9:54:06 AM EDT
[#17]
So for a M777 at the absolute edge of its range, what would be the difference in impact, if the rotation wasn't accounted for, for a round fired at Fort Sill from east to west, and vice versa?
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Posted: 1/2/2016 9:56:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So for a M777 at the absolute edge of its range, what would be the difference in impact, if the rotation wasn't accounted for, for a round fired at Fort Sill from east to west, and vice versa? RON already posted the chart. |
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Posted: 1/2/2016 1:34:27 PM EDT
[#19]
He did, but I don't math with mils.
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Posted: 1/2/2016 2:56:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He did, but I don't math with mils. 1600 = 90 degrees 4800 = 270 degrees 17.8 mils to a degree will get you close enough for quick math. I don't have a 777 with MACS TFT and I don't have access to the online TFTs anymore for download, or I would look it up. |
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Posted: 1/2/2016 4:36:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He did, but I don't math with mils. Quote HistoryQuoted:
He did, but I don't math with mils. Table H is in meters. Quoted:
So for a M777 at the absolute edge of its range, what would be the difference in impact, if the rotation wasn't accounted for, for a round fired at Fort Sill from east to west, and vice versa? For simplicity I am going to change your question to the gun being on the equator. Firing at Ft Sill would have a change in range of 87% of the following. Fired at high angle at the minimum range, the max change in achieved range is +/- 92 meters. This has the highest time of flight and therefore the largest change in range. Fired at low angle at near maximum range, the change in achieved range is +/- 50 meters. The actual max range has a change in achieved range of +/- 43 meters. |
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Posted: 1/2/2016 4:43:30 PM EDT
[#22]
That's like asking why doesn't a fly smack into your rear windshield from when your vehicle is parked and you hit 60-70 mph.
If you jump, the earth doesn't rotate under you, while you're in the air. You move with the earth. |
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Posted: 1/2/2016 4:51:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's like asking why doesn't a fly smack into your rear windshield from when your vehicle is parked and you hit 60-70 mph. If you jump, the earth doesn't rotate under you, while you're in the air. You move with the earth. actually it does. Just not very much. there is an angular acceleration. More pronounced if you jump in one direction or the other which you will to a certain degree invariably. |
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Posted: 1/2/2016 9:30:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Table H is in meters. I missed that in the giant wall of numbers. For simplicity I am going to change your question to the gun being on the equator. Firing at Ft Sill would have a change in range of 87% of the following. Fired at high angle at the minimum range, the max change in achieved range is +/- 92 meters. This has the highest time of flight and therefore the largest change in range. Fired at low angle at near maximum range, the change in achieved range is +/- 50 meters. The actual max range has a change in achieved range of +/- 43 meters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He did, but I don't math with mils. Table H is in meters. I missed that in the giant wall of numbers. Quoted: So for a M777 at the absolute edge of its range, what would be the difference in impact, if the rotation wasn't accounted for, for a round fired at Fort Sill from east to west, and vice versa? For simplicity I am going to change your question to the gun being on the equator. Firing at Ft Sill would have a change in range of 87% of the following. Fired at high angle at the minimum range, the max change in achieved range is +/- 92 meters. This has the highest time of flight and therefore the largest change in range. Fired at low angle at near maximum range, the change in achieved range is +/- 50 meters. The actual max range has a change in achieved range of +/- 43 meters. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:04:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's like asking why doesn't a fly smack into your rear windshield from when your vehicle is parked and you hit 60-70 mph. If you jump, the earth doesn't rotate under you, while you're in the air. You move with the earth. Try that on a treadmill. 
TOF of 40 seconds to a full min.+ and in fact, the target has moved. On a danger close mission, with grunts 200m from impact...how precise do ya want FDC to sharpen their pencil?
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:25:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is apparently better learned from GD novices, rather than Fort Sill or career artillerymen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here? Physics. Gunnery. Which is apparently better learned from GD novices, rather than Fort Sill or career artillerymen. ?? This 'novice' posted the correct answer and FM 6-40 reference early on in this topic. What I'm wondering is what all the stubborn ignorance and 'treadmill' stuff is about. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:38:55 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is it on a treadmill though?
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:25:50 AM EDT
[#28]
I can see the real artillery men trying to bring dignity to what would otherwise be a vulger GD brawl.. lol
Earths rotation most certainly is in table H but most 13Ds today cant spell TFT now let alone know how to use one. and if we called our GFTs or GSTs "slide rules" we would get a RDP gash to the head. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:57:10 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it on a treadmill though?
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit. 
Yep. Good luck convincing the Cube farm academics, and basement Einsteins otherwise though. This is GD. Not FDC, but a reformed Gun grape Section Chief(0811/0812), with time on the hill. Back then, Arty school involved crabbing a 101A1 up the hill behind HQ, and enough circle time, to lay a platoon as a PFC. The 101A1 was still on the line, Pigs were still in rotation to increase Nuke flexibility, and the 198's were on their first dozen obturating rings. 
One skipper I had with 2/11 was old school/Nam Mustang, and had the Doughnut boys on the sticks at least half the time, for Back yard RSOP'ing, because he didn't trust the BCS at all. "Batterys die, Batterys freeze, shit gets wet, shit gets busted, shit gets dusty, shit burns". You should have heard the Howling, when we had a RAP mission in the stumps one day, and he pulled the plug on them using the BCS.
Damn if the guys got to be near as fast with the sticks though, and some of the guys had to go that route during DS. It's a shame Doggie FDC went to being data entry techs. We even have one that posted here, denying the correction existed. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:59:08 AM EDT
[#30]
i
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it on a treadmill though?
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit. you mean drift |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 5:17:52 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. actually pilots do. If you fly from the east to west it takes actually longer flying time compared to the exact same route west to east. it most certinaly impacts fuel consumption. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 5:23:40 AM EDT
[#32]
It's the coriolis effect, and the question isn't "how much further does it fly" the question is more along the lines of "is the target rising or falling relative to my initial assuming point based on the rotation of the earth"
Shooting against the rotation the target actual rises in Ralston to where it was at ignition, and falls if shooting with rotation. Long range shooters with flight times of several seconds have to account for this |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 6:20:27 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
actually pilots do. If you fly from the east to west it takes actually longer flying time compared to the exact same route west to east. it most certinaly impacts fuel consumption. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If the Earths rotation were taken into account as some imply here we'd be flying round-the-world flights east-to-west instead of west-to-east as we do now, even taking into account prevailing winds. actually pilots do. If you fly from the east to west it takes actually longer flying time compared to the exact same route west to east. it most certinaly impacts fuel consumption. I'm think that's wind, not earth's rotation (I'm sure it has some effect, but I wouldn't think it's that much). Could be wrong, I'm not a pilot, but the last discussion I had with one suggested those time differences had to do with prevailing winds. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 9:01:36 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Good luck convincing the Cube farm academics, and basement Einsteins otherwise though. This is GD. Not FDC, but a reformed Gun grape Section Chief(0811/0812), with time on the hill. Back then, Arty school involved crabbing a 101A1 up the hill behind HQ, and enough circle time, to lay a platoon as a PFC. The 101A1 was still on the line, Pigs were still in rotation to increase Nuke flexibility, and the 198's were on their first dozen obturating rings.
One skipper I had with 2/11 was old school/Nam Mustang, and had the Doughnut boys on the sticks at least half the time, for Back yard RSOP'ing, because he didn't trust the BCS at all. "Batterys die, Batterys freeze, shit gets wet, shit gets busted, shit gets dusty, shit burns". You should have heard the Howling, when we had a RAP mission in the stumps one day, and he pulled the plug on them using the BCS.
Damn if the guys got to be near as fast with the sticks though, and some of the guys had to go that route during DS. It's a shame Doggie FDC went to being data entry techs. We even have one that posted here, denying the correction existed.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it on a treadmill though?
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit.
Yep. Good luck convincing the Cube farm academics, and basement Einsteins otherwise though. This is GD. Not FDC, but a reformed Gun grape Section Chief(0811/0812), with time on the hill. Back then, Arty school involved crabbing a 101A1 up the hill behind HQ, and enough circle time, to lay a platoon as a PFC. The 101A1 was still on the line, Pigs were still in rotation to increase Nuke flexibility, and the 198's were on their first dozen obturating rings.
One skipper I had with 2/11 was old school/Nam Mustang, and had the Doughnut boys on the sticks at least half the time, for Back yard RSOP'ing, because he didn't trust the BCS at all. "Batterys die, Batterys freeze, shit gets wet, shit gets busted, shit gets dusty, shit burns". You should have heard the Howling, when we had a RAP mission in the stumps one day, and he pulled the plug on them using the BCS.
Damn if the guys got to be near as fast with the sticks though, and some of the guys had to go that route during DS. It's a shame Doggie FDC went to being data entry techs. We even have one that posted here, denying the correction existed.
I taught Gunnery for the Officer Basic Course for two years. I taught the last class that manual firing data instruction. We had to fight tooth and nail to keep it as long as we did. Let me say right now, rotation is in the calculation whether manually or digitally computed. The original question just bugs the hell out if me. Artillery projectiles do not fly. Birds fly. They go no further, or shorter, when fired in any direction. Their point of impact will vary based upon a number if factors. That's why we account and correct for these variances. Yes, Field Artillerymen are no longer taught their craft. I can still put steel on target with a map, two observed fire fans and a TFT. And I've been out of the game since 1992. How? Because I learned that shit. Give an LT an M17 plotting board today and he'd shit himself. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 9:07:03 AM EDT
[#35]
Gun laying always impresses me when it's discussed. Sadly it points out how woefully inadequate I am at math.
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:16:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I taught Gunnery for the Officer Basic Course for two years. I taught the last class that manual firing data instruction. We had to fight tooth and nail to keep it as long as we did. Let me say right now, rotation is in the calculation whether manually or digitally computed. The original question just bugs the hell out if me. Artillery projectiles do not fly. Birds fly. They go no further, or shorter, when fired in any direction. Their point of impact will vary based upon a number if factors. That's why we account and correct for these variances. Yes, Field Artillerymen are no longer taught their craft. I can still put steel on target with a map, two observed fire fans and a TFT. And I've been out of the game since 1992. How? Because I learned that shit. Give an LT an M17 plotting board today and he'd shit himself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it on a treadmill though?
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit.
Yep. Good luck convincing the Cube farm academics, and basement Einsteins otherwise though. This is GD. Not FDC, but a reformed Gun grape Section Chief(0811/0812), with time on the hill. Back then, Arty school involved crabbing a 101A1 up the hill behind HQ, and enough circle time, to lay a platoon as a PFC. The 101A1 was still on the line, Pigs were still in rotation to increase Nuke flexibility, and the 198's were on their first dozen obturating rings.
One skipper I had with 2/11 was old school/Nam Mustang, and had the Doughnut boys on the sticks at least half the time, for Back yard RSOP'ing, because he didn't trust the BCS at all. "Batterys die, Batterys freeze, shit gets wet, shit gets busted, shit gets dusty, shit burns". You should have heard the Howling, when we had a RAP mission in the stumps one day, and he pulled the plug on them using the BCS.
Damn if the guys got to be near as fast with the sticks though, and some of the guys had to go that route during DS. It's a shame Doggie FDC went to being data entry techs. We even have one that posted here, denying the correction existed.
I taught Gunnery for the Officer Basic Course for two years. I taught the last class that manual firing data instruction. We had to fight tooth and nail to keep it as long as we did. Let me say right now, rotation is in the calculation whether manually or digitally computed. The original question just bugs the hell out if me. Artillery projectiles do not fly. Birds fly. They go no further, or shorter, when fired in any direction. Their point of impact will vary based upon a number if factors. That's why we account and correct for these variances. Yes, Field Artillerymen are no longer taught their craft. I can still put steel on target with a map, two observed fire fans and a TFT. And I've been out of the game since 1992. How? Because I learned that shit. Give an LT an M17 plotting board today and he'd shit himself. The "great experiment" of not teaching manual gunnery lasted about a year in the early 90s until all the Regimental Commanders in the Army complained Lt's could no pass their safety exams. Manual gunnery has been taught since than; but there is talk again that of no longer teaching it, it does not help that the CG of the fires center of excellence is a AD officer and not an FA officer. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:19:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1600 = 90 degrees 4800 = 270 degrees 17.8 mils to a degree will get you close enough for quick math. I don't have a 777 with MACS TFT and I don't have access to the online TFTs anymore for download, or I would look it up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He did, but I don't math with mils. 1600 = 90 degrees 4800 = 270 degrees 17.8 mils to a degree will get you close enough for quick math. I don't have a 777 with MACS TFT and I don't have access to the online TFTs anymore for download, or I would look it up. I can send E copies to you if you want them, the problem right now is we discovered that MACs causes a large build up of titanium oxide on the inside of the tube causing something called spiral wear. So high charges are combat only and even with that ever tube in the inventory will need to be replaced. The Marines are leading an initiative to retube with a 52 cal tube. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:22:00 AM EDT
[#38]
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?? This 'novice' posted the correct answer and FM 6-40 reference early on in this topic. What I'm wondering is what all the stubborn ignorance and 'treadmill' stuff is about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Christ you people could fuck up a free lunch. What happened here? Physics. Gunnery. Which is apparently better learned from GD novices, rather than Fort Sill or career artillerymen. ?? This 'novice' posted the correct answer and FM 6-40 reference early on in this topic. What I'm wondering is what all the stubborn ignorance and 'treadmill' stuff is about. Novices was used to refer to those espousing the stubborn ignorance and treadmill stuff, not those who actually gave replies based on obvious experience. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:34:04 AM EDT
[#39]
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It's the coriolis effect, and the question isn't "how much further does it fly" the question is more along the lines of "is the target rising or falling relative to my initial assuming point based on the rotation of the earth" Shooting against the rotation the target actual rises in Ralston to where it was at ignition, and falls if shooting with rotation. Long range shooters with flight times of several seconds have to account for this It's not the Coriolis effect. Coriolis affects n-s ballistics (or the n-s component of the ballistics). E-w ballistics is, as pointed out earlier by other folks, affected by the eotvos effect. Artillery tables should account for it because it does matter. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:37:39 AM EDT
[#40]
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It's not the Coriolis effect. Coriolis affects n-s ballistics (or the n-s component of the ballistics). E-w ballistics is, as pointed out earlier by other folks, affected by the eotvos effect. Artillery tables should account for it because it does matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's the coriolis effect, and the question isn't "how much further does it fly" the question is more along the lines of "is the target rising or falling relative to my initial assuming point based on the rotation of the earth" Shooting against the rotation the target actual rises in Ralston to where it was at ignition, and falls if shooting with rotation. Long range shooters with flight times of several seconds have to account for this It's not the Coriolis effect. Coriolis affects n-s ballistics (or the n-s component of the ballistics). E-w ballistics is, as pointed out earlier by other folks, affected by the eotvos effect. Artillery tables should account for it because it does matter. in the US TFTs table H controls for the Eotvos effect, table I controls for the Coriolis effect |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:42:41 AM EDT
[#41]
This has turned into an interesting thread. More people still think it does not matter than think it does. Arty guys are saying both it does and doesn't.
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:45:49 AM EDT
[#42]
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Arty guys are saying both it does and doesn't. I may have missed it but it seems all the 08xxs and 13xs in the discussion have said it matters. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 11:04:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Put a balloon in an enclosed room unattached to anything, floating and set it directly in the middle of the room. Does it shift to one side of the room or the other?
There are so many other variables with long range shooting the rotation of the earth is pretty low on the priority list. Things like wind speed, temperature, barometric pressure etc... will dictate your shot more so than the rotation of the earth. I've never once taken a long range shot nor seen anyone take along range shot and blame a poor hit on the rotation of the earth... I guess I'm not that good of a shooter and neither are the people I shoot with.... |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 11:11:43 AM EDT
[#44]
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Put a balloon in an enclosed room unattached to anything, floating and set it directly in the middle of the room. Does it shift to one side of the room or the other?
There are so many other variables with long range shooting the rotation of the earth is pretty low on the priority list. Things like wind speed, temperature, barometric pressure etc... will dictate your shot more so than the rotation of the earth. I've never once taken a long range shot nor seen anyone take along range shot and blame a poor hit on the rotation of the earth... I guess I'm not that good of a shooter and neither are the people I shoot with.... are you an artilleryman? There can be up to a 50M difference. When you are up close and personal, thats the difference between danger close and fratricide. Thank you for your input. We will forward your opinion to the artillery schoolhouse and have them change 80 years of experience and science because balloons. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 11:33:14 AM EDT
[#45]
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in the US TFTs table H controls for the Eotvos effect, table I controls for the Coriolis effect Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's the coriolis effect, and the question isn't "how much further does it fly" the question is more along the lines of "is the target rising or falling relative to my initial assuming point based on the rotation of the earth" Shooting against the rotation the target actual rises in Ralston to where it was at ignition, and falls if shooting with rotation. Long range shooters with flight times of several seconds have to account for this It's not the Coriolis effect. Coriolis affects n-s ballistics (or the n-s component of the ballistics). E-w ballistics is, as pointed out earlier by other folks, affected by the eotvos effect. Artillery tables should account for it because it does matter. in the US TFTs table H controls for the Eotvos effect, table I controls for the Coriolis effect Interesting. If I'm reading the tables correctly it's pretty much as I expected eotvos correction, table h, is maximum at 1600 azimuth and decreases to zero at 0/3200. Also, as expected the eastward and westward adjustments are opposite in sign (& not big numbers, +/- 18 meters at 8000 meter base range) While the coriolis effect, table I, is maximum correction at 0/3200 and decreases to zero at 1600. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 11:33:43 AM EDT
[#46]
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are you an artilleryman? There can be up to a 50M difference. When you are up close and personal, thats the difference between danger close and fratricide. Thank you for your input. We will forward your opinion to the artillery schoolhouse and have them change 80 years of experience and science because balloons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Put a balloon in an enclosed room unattached to anything, floating and set it directly in the middle of the room. Does it shift to one side of the room or the other?
There are so many other variables with long range shooting the rotation of the earth is pretty low on the priority list. Things like wind speed, temperature, barometric pressure etc... will dictate your shot more so than the rotation of the earth. I've never once taken a long range shot nor seen anyone take along range shot and blame a poor hit on the rotation of the earth... I guess I'm not that good of a shooter and neither are the people I shoot with.... are you an artilleryman? There can be up to a 50M difference. When you are up close and personal, thats the difference between danger close and fratricide. Thank you for your input. We will forward your opinion to the artillery schoolhouse and have them change 80 years of experience and science because balloons. After reading what I posted I failed to mention I was referring to rifles. I see the topic at hand IS Artillery. This is what I get for being hung over and posting.... The balloon comment is more meant to be an "Airplane on a treadmill" remark. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 11:36:59 AM EDT
[#47]
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I taught Gunnery for the Officer Basic Course for two years. I taught the last class that manual firing data instruction. We had to fight tooth and nail to keep it as long as we did. Let me say right now, rotation is in the calculation whether manually or digitally computed. The original question just bugs the hell out if me. Artillery projectiles do not fly. Birds fly. They go no further, or shorter, when fired in any direction. Their point of impact will vary based upon a number if factors. That's why we account and correct for these variances. Yes, Field Artillerymen are no longer taught their craft. I can still put steel on target with a map, two observed fire fans and a TFT. And I've been out of the game since 1992. How? Because I learned that shit. Give an LT an M17 plotting board today and he'd shit himself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is it on a treadmill though?
Yes. For once. That's the thing some are having a hard time with. TOF in any direction, is the same. Yes, but the map distance is not. It is effected by I'm stunned to see the Army reportedly NOT teaching that rotation and azimuth of lay in relation to it do matter. They sure as fuck were teaching it 27yrs ago. Or at least the Marines were, while the Army was fingerfucking their shiny new BCS. Look I already posted FM 6-40 Ch3, sec 3-3, it's referenced there. It's taught in manual gunnery. It's embedded in the ballistic computers, no computer operator need worry about it. But it's THERE. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm I've forgotten the terms, it's been a long time, but it's the physics / trig of the east-west leg of the azimuth and TOF, and another correction for +/- latitude. Those factors produce a correction factor for the east-west shift in the point of aim for a first-shot hit.
Yep. Good luck convincing the Cube farm academics, and basement Einsteins otherwise though. This is GD. Not FDC, but a reformed Gun grape Section Chief(0811/0812), with time on the hill. Back then, Arty school involved crabbing a 101A1 up the hill behind HQ, and enough circle time, to lay a platoon as a PFC. The 101A1 was still on the line, Pigs were still in rotation to increase Nuke flexibility, and the 198's were on their first dozen obturating rings.
One skipper I had with 2/11 was old school/Nam Mustang, and had the Doughnut boys on the sticks at least half the time, for Back yard RSOP'ing, because he didn't trust the BCS at all. "Batterys die, Batterys freeze, shit gets wet, shit gets busted, shit gets dusty, shit burns". You should have heard the Howling, when we had a RAP mission in the stumps one day, and he pulled the plug on them using the BCS.
Damn if the guys got to be near as fast with the sticks though, and some of the guys had to go that route during DS. It's a shame Doggie FDC went to being data entry techs. We even have one that posted here, denying the correction existed.
I taught Gunnery for the Officer Basic Course for two years. I taught the last class that manual firing data instruction. We had to fight tooth and nail to keep it as long as we did. Let me say right now, rotation is in the calculation whether manually or digitally computed. The original question just bugs the hell out if me. Artillery projectiles do not fly. Birds fly. They go no further, or shorter, when fired in any direction. Their point of impact will vary based upon a number if factors. That's why we account and correct for these variances. Yes, Field Artillerymen are no longer taught their craft. I can still put steel on target with a map, two observed fire fans and a TFT. And I've been out of the game since 1992. How? Because I learned that shit. Give an LT an M17 plotting board today and he'd shit himself. 1992 eh ...PSI ...sheesh you probably taught me  ...
sadly that they have pretty much removed all the manual chests from all the latest MTOEs.... getting plotting paper and replacement GFTs or GSTs was pretty hard if not impossible in some cases. manual survey skills are in the same boat....
what people are failing to grasp is it all has an effect and adds up, Wind, Drift, Rotation, Humility, Temperature, Air Pressure, Muzzle Velocity etc.. miss a part and you will wonder why you can hit crap... get it right you will blow stuff up. I once wanted to skull Fu*k a LT who was arguing about blaming the Foxes and how they were screwing up on the hill and they were purposely shooting long. Later found out he was using standard MET on a 100+ degree day. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 11:52:14 AM EDT
[#48]
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This has turned into an interesting thread. More people still think it does not matter than think it does. Arty guys are saying both it does and doesn't. When you are firing 98lbs of Comp B in your direction it most certainly matters.. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:48:14 PM EDT
[#49]
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When you are firing 98lbs of Comp B in your direction it most certainly matters.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This has turned into an interesting thread. More people still think it does not matter than think it does. Arty guys are saying both it does and doesn't. When you are firing 98lbs of Comp B in your direction it most certainly matters.. It's all good in the hood if you're the gun bunny or in the FDC, but when you're the guy on the other end of the radio, 50 meters can be a big deal. I remember when a gunner once transposed a couple of digits because he was tired. Rather than land in the impact area, the round flew right over the Humvee in which I was sitting, went through the trees directly over the area where my former FIST team was playing spades, and landed 82 meters away from them, sending shrapnel over their heads. Minor things can definitely mean the difference between life and death with field artillery. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:59:47 PM EDT
[#50]
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It's all good in the hood if you're the gun bunny or in the FDC, but when you're the guy on the other end of the radio, 50 meters can be a big deal. I remember when a gunner once transposed a couple of digits because he was tired. Rather than land in the impact area, the round flew right over the Humvee in which I was sitting, went through the trees directly over the area where my former FIST team was playing spades, and landed 82 meters away from them, sending shrapnel over their heads. Minor things can definitely mean the difference between life and death with field artillery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This has turned into an interesting thread. More people still think it does not matter than think it does. Arty guys are saying both it does and doesn't. When you are firing 98lbs of Comp B in your direction it most certainly matters.. It's all good in the hood if you're the gun bunny or in the FDC, but when you're the guy on the other end of the radio, 50 meters can be a big deal. I remember when a gunner once transposed a couple of digits because he was tired. Rather than land in the impact area, the round flew right over the Humvee in which I was sitting, went through the trees directly over the area where my former FIST team was playing spades, and landed 82 meters away from them, sending shrapnel over their heads. Minor things can definitely mean the difference between life and death with field artillery. yep we once had a other unit firing on the same GT line of our observers. Round lands 100m off due deflection error, result round lands on the 40m from the foxes on the hill lucky they were in tracks at the time, needless to say after that they were always very concerned with GT and Angle T as well as where and what other units were shooting that day. |
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