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Without knowing what the burn characteristics of the powder are, weighing the powder load will not tell you anything. A number of years ago, a friend mistakenly loaded 2400 instead of 4198 in a 7mm TCU, the results were impressive. Fortunately the Thompson Center Contender is a VERY strong firearm, but he did stretch the frame. Commercial manufacturers do not use the same powders that we can normally purchase from our suppliers. They purchase to a general spec and test the powder prior to establishing a load. View Quote The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. |
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We've run around 2,400,000rds of horn frontier through our full autos so far. I'm still buying it and that number is not including this month. No problems at all
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Quoted: When I worked at Federal Cartridge they had kegs and kegs of commercially labelled powder. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. View Quote This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. |
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Quoted: When I worked at Federal Cartridge they had kegs and kegs of commercially labelled powder. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. View Quote |
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I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages.
Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... |
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With the Frontier ammo being relatively new to market, the prevalence of similar issues isn’t very encouraging.
Took minimal effort to compile the links below. All mention issues with blown primers. At least one other KB alleged. Quite a few complaints of “dud” rounds as well. https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/hornady-frontier-556-nato-55-grain-centerfire-rifle-ammunition https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/frontier-cartridge-centerfire-rifle-ammo https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-frontier-556-nato-ammunition-20-rounds-68-grain-bthp-match-2690fps-090255711608.do https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Hornady-Frontier-Possibly-loaded-hotter-than-193-AND-855-/16-727225/ http://www.nevadashooters.com/threads/hornady-frontier-hot-loads-weapon-failure.141146/ I’m pretty good about giving the benefit of the doubt. Maybe even a little more leniency for those companies who’ve established a good name for themselves. When it comes to ammo, Hornady and Federal have earned their “street cred”. But if this keeps up, they may have some splanin’ to do. ETA: Another instance to add to the above list. Frontier ammo and, this time, another KB (called out by backbencher)... https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/My-AR-exploded-in-my-face-today--Can-anyone-tell-me-why-/66-731445/ |
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Quoted: This is Exactly what I figured This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. View Quote |
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With the Frontier ammo being relatively new to market, the prevalence of similar issues isn’t very encouraging. Took minimal effort to compile the links below. All mention issues with blown primers. At least one other KB alleged. Quite a few complaints of “dud” rounds as well. https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/hornady-frontier-556-nato-55-grain-centerfire-rifle-ammunition https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/frontier-cartridge-centerfire-rifle-ammo https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-frontier-556-nato-ammunition-20-rounds-68-grain-bthp-match-2690fps-090255711608.do https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Hornady-Frontier-Possibly-loaded-hotter-than-193-AND-855-/16-727225/ http://www.nevadashooters.com/threads/hornady-frontier-hot-loads-weapon-failure.141146/ I’m pretty good about giving the benefit of the doubt. Maybe even a little more leniency for those companies who’ve established a good name for themselves. When it comes to ammo, Hornady and Federal have earned their “street cred”. But if this keeps up, they may have some splanin’ to do. View Quote |
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if your friend still has the blown primer'd brass, is there any other visible damage? like indentations or scratches?
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Chance number one to stop shooting the ammo... Chance number two to stop shooting the ammo... Chance number three to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number four to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number Kaboom. I have only seen one kaboom but there were signs that something was wrong and with those primers being blown out that is a huge sign the ammo is over charged. I am glad you friend is okay but send those cart and the ammo back and ask for a replacement AR. The ammo manufacturer really screwed the Pooh on those carts View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Here are a few empty cases we found after the Kaboom.https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/126115/20180909_215804-666944.JPG Chance number two to stop shooting the ammo... Chance number three to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number four to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number Kaboom. I have only seen one kaboom but there were signs that something was wrong and with those primers being blown out that is a huge sign the ammo is over charged. I am glad you friend is okay but send those cart and the ammo back and ask for a replacement AR. The ammo manufacturer really screwed the Pooh on those carts |
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Midway has a sale on Frontier Ammo 150 rounds for $42.99 View Quote |
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If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this.
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I have shot around 300 or so rounds from Hornadys 55 grain hollow point match. It comes from the same frontier line of ammo and so far it has been a great load with no over pressure signs or anything abnormal.
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Looking at the pics.
The bolt carrier let go versus the bolt. I don't think it was an overcharged round. Gas is not blown back into the gun to open the bolt because it is piston and the bolt is still in the barrel extention. My guess, is the bolt carrier broke and when the piston gave it a punch and the bolt was not pulled out of battery. This is why I asked about the cam pin. |
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Looking at the pics. The bolt carrier let go versus the bolt. I don't think it was an overcharged round. View Quote How do you explain: 1. The massive ejector flow in the brass on previous rounds. 2. The blown primers This event was caused by case failure. The root cause of the case failure was either bad brass, or overpressure. "Overcharged" is a misnomer. |
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Quoted: When the case fails - gasses enter the carrier in excess of what it was designed for. This is exactly what happens during an overpressure event. The bolt normally does not shear, but case failure results in damage to the areas that cannot be contained, such as the extractor, and venting gas into the firing pin channel. How do you explain: 1. The massive ejector flow in the brass on previous rounds. 2. The blown primers This issues was caused by case failure. The cause of the case failure was either bad brass, or overpressure. "Overcharged" is a misnomer. View Quote |
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Here are a few empty cases we found after the Kaboom.https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/126115/20180909_215804-666944.JPG View Quote |
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Quoted: Now come on, how good are your eyes that you can see empty primer pockets flinging quickly out of the corner of vision? Do you stop after every shot and walk 20 feet to inspect your brass? View Quote Bottom line - Those are the only signs you are going to get. If you start finding brass with heavy extractor wipes and blown primers that's as much prior warning as you are going to get from the mechanical side. |
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OP's buddy works so hard he doesn't even have time for ARFCOM, let alone calling ammo manufacturers while on the clock.
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OP's buddy works so hard he doesn't even have time for ARFCOM, let alone calling ammo manufacturers while on the clock. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted: If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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My friend works as a first responder and owns his own business. He has very little time to take care of personal stuff. He said he would call them Friday. I will let you know any info, as soon as he let's me know.
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My friend works as a first responder and owns his own business. He has very little time to take care of personal stuff. He said he would call them Friday. I will let you know any info, as soon as he let's me know. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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I’m curious to know if there are a couple bullets stuck in the barrel.
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My friend works as a first responder and owns his own business. He has very little time to take care of personal stuff. He said he would call them Friday. I will let you know any info, as soon as he let's me know. View Quote I agree though, if he can spare the time sooner than later I think it will go smoother for him with Hornady. Really interested to see what they say. I had a buddy who builds a lot of rifles take a look at the thread and his opinion was it’s the rifle, not the ammo. That’s my humble, non-scientific addition to the thread. I’m an ammo idiot, so I’ll leave it up to you experts to discuss! Glad your buddy wasn’t hurt, and thanks for sharing this. |
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This is Exactly what I figured This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: When I worked at Federal Cartridge they had kegs and kegs of commercially labelled powder. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. |
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That's what I paid for mine about a month ago from Midway. See my posts earlier in the thread. The ones I received from Midway have a different lot # format and different item # from the 150 round boxes others have bought elsewhere. Haven't shot any yet but I will this weekend out of a couple different uppers (11.5" 5.56, 16" 5.56 and 16" PredatAR). I'll be checking all of my brass and if all is well, I'll be buying more at that price. View Quote Attached File 18" LaRue Stealth, some minor ejector/extractor marks but that's pretty normal for any 5.56 loads from this barrel Attached File 16" factory built Stag (2009 vintage) CL barrel, no pressure signs Attached File 11.5" Stone Mountain Arsenal melonite barrel, 5.56 chamber, no pressure signs Attached File I feel safe shooting the 900 rounds of this that I have. |
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I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages. Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... View Quote Attached File Before: Attached File After: Attached File |
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Here are some pictures of what I am describing. The before cleaning can raise pressure to over pressure levels. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages. Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG If ammo becomes dangerous because of some carbon buildup from normal shooting, then the ammo is still at fault. I don't care what other external factors play in. |
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Here are some pictures of what I am describing. The before cleaning can raise pressure to over pressure levels. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages. Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG If that were a real issue, we'd hear of it causing issues all the time. There are tons of people who never touch the barrels of their AR's, and dont have over pressure issues. |
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Just in case these threads aren't cross-linked already:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/My-AR-exploded-in-my-face-today--Can-anyone-tell-me-why-/66-731445/ |
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Just in case these threads aren't cross-linked already: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/My-AR-exploded-in-my-face-today--Can-anyone-tell-me-why-/66-731445/ View Quote |
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My friend just messaged me and Hornady asked him to send his upper and ammo in.
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My friend is still waiting to here from Hornady. They have his upper.
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