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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:31:32 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The AR wasn't limited to ten rounds; IIRC the AR shooters were using 30-rounders loaded to capacity. The courses of fire were such that high volumes of fire were not required - engaging three or four targets at close range in a canyon, then reaching out 100-120yds to hit 8-inch steel. In a realistic scenario, probably involving one or two opponents with handguns or maybe cheap rifles, seven rounds of a much more powerful cartridge than 5.56 is not at a practical disadvantage to the AR. I hate to break it to you, but overwhelming volume of fire is rarely needed in a civilian or LE context. Unless I need precision or longer effective range, I'm probably reaching for the shotgun or .30-30. ARs have their purpose, but are not the end-all solution envisioned by many folks on this site. And then let me list the scenarios where the AR is going to be superior. Then let’s discuss the likelihood of you knowing ahead of time what the exact parameters of an encounter are going to be with such certainty that you can guarantee that grabbing the lever gun or shotgun is going to be the right call. So you don’t need to break anything to me. I already know. But the margin of error of walking into an encounter with unknown variables is vastly decreased with an AR than it is with a lever gun or a shotgun. You are seriously advocating preferring technology that has been near universally cast aside by both military and law enforcement in favor of newer technology. My grandad was issued a .357 and a shotgun when he was an LEO. But he retired almost 40 years ago before they transitioned to auto-loaders and AR’s. And you know what? There’s been a long enough service record since the switch over to say with confidence that the wheel gun and lever gun days aren’t coming back. And for good reason. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:42:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And that was exactly my point as well. What does an auto do better than a lever gun that you feel the need to put it down than getting bullets down range faster? Where I hunt there is no need for a 380 yard bolt gun to shoot a deer. FFS people just want to put down what they don't like. That was my other point. Loss of popularity does not mean obsolete. If there is defensiveness in this thread, it’s going to be found in the posts that try to prop up the lever gun. Because those are the ones that try and ignore or diminish what are fairly obvious facts. I can like shooting or hunting with a gun that is adequate for the task without having to claim that it’s the best or equal to more modern designs. That’s all I and others are saying. When going to the range or to punch holes in Bambi, my life isn’t on the line. So there’s plenty of room to use things that are fun to use. But there’s no need to justify it further than that. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:46:43 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He’s not “putting it down”. He’s correctly stating the advantages of auto-loaders, particularly box magazine fed autos. If there is defensiveness in this thread, it’s going to be found in the posts that try to prop up the lever gun. Because those are the ones that try and ignore or diminish what are fairly obvious facts. I can like shooting or hunting with a gun that is adequate for the task without having to claim that it’s the best or equal to more modern designs. That’s all I and others are saying. When going to the range or to punch holes in Bambi, my life isn’t on the line. So there’s plenty of room to use things that are fun to use. But there’s no need to justify it further than that. I certainly didn't put down auto guns or bolts in any point I was making. I guess that 8 pointer I shot last fall shouldn't have fallen over when I shot it with my lever 30-30 obsolete nonsensical lever gun. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:51:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not insulted, I have both bolt and auto guns. How is it obsolete? Maybe better wording is "out of style" now that you can grab an AR for the same price. Is black powder technology obsolete? Yet they still manufacture them. The lever action was an interesting development to facilitate faster loading. That’s it. No different than a single action revolver or a pump action. You manually eject and reload. We don’t have to do that anymore. Technology is such that auto-loaders do it with such boring reliability that people whose lives depend on the reliable operation of their weapons have pretty much universally switched over to auto-loaders. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:51:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously? Is black powder technology obsolete? Yet they still manufacture them. The lever action was an interesting development to facilitate faster loading. That’s it. No different than a single action revolver or a pump action. You manually eject and reload. We don’t have to do that anymore. Technology is such that auto-loaders do it with such boring reliability that people whose lives depend on the reliable operation of their weapons have pretty much universally switched over to auto-loaders. 
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:52:28 AM EDT
[#6]
Bro. You're trying to hard.
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:55:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it didn't. I guess if we’re looking at a list that is comprised of Muzzle loaders, Manual mechanical loaders and Auto-loaders, then a lever gun is one of the best by virtue of coming in 2nd. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 10:58:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Any used offering I see at a LGS or pawn shop at a halfway reasonable price is gone in no time. Someone sure likes them. Particularly those older examples without the safety.
If anything hurt them as far as newer Winchesters and Marlins it was the cross-bolt safety. I was looking at a decently priced lightly used newer Winchester L/A carbine in .45 LC at the LGS other day. I could not get pass that safety and passed. It was gone the next day. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:04:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I traded for 80's model 94 30-30 last summer and actually bought a new lever 30-30 right before Christmas a couple of months ago. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:06:13 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Name me the scenario where a lever gun or shotgun is going to be the superior option to an AR. And then let me list the scenarios where the AR is going to be superior. Then let’s discuss the likelihood of you knowing ahead of time what the exact parameters of an encounter are going to be with such certainty that you can guarantee that grabbing the lever gun or shotgun is going to be the right call. So you don’t need to break anything to me. I already know. But the margin of error of walking into an encounter with unknown variables is vastly decreased with an AR than it is with a lever gun or a shotgun. You are seriously advocating preferring technology that has been near universally cast aside by both military and law enforcement in favor of newer technology. My grandad was issued a .357 and a shotgun when he was an LEO. But he retired almost 40 years ago before they transitioned to auto-loaders and AR’s. And you know what? There’s been a long enough service record since the switch over to say with confidence that the wheel gun and lever gun days aren’t coming back. And for good reason. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:09:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd say it's more a matter of Winchester being an expensive Japanese Gun now, and Remington ruining Marlin. Henry makes a lot of models, but all I ever see are the 22s. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:09:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry but that is a bad analogy. The lever gun has all the same functioning parts and does not have to be attached to anything. Out of style does not mean obsolete. Might as well get rid of bolt guns then since it's all AR's now. The problem with your retort is that there are things that the bolt gun is capable of doing better than an AR and vice versa. The problem with the lever gun is that it does nothing better. It isn’t even a good compromise between accuracy and reload speed. Auto-loading tech has come too far. You can try and mince words by using “out of style” (which is listed as a synonym for obsolete, BTW), but it all means the same thing. It’s a fun and interesting chapter in firearms development. You can still use it effectively for some things the same as when it was first developed more than 100 years ago, just like the venerable old single action Army. But there is a new generation of tech out there that renders such an advantage that pretty much everyone who has a stake in surviving armed encounters decided to switch over to the new tech decades ago (actually a century ago if you want to include auto-loading pistols). |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:10:00 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There’s a difference in being adequate at something and being the best at something...which is what the post I quoted said. There’s nothing wrong with hunting deer with a lever gun. It does the job. But when the question becomes which gun does the job best, the lever gun isn’t the answer...particularly if it’s a tube feed design. I have no hate for the lever gun. And I can even understand the love to the extent that it’s based on a historic/nostalgic sentimentality. But I can’t go along with trying to pretend that it’s anything more than an interesting chapter in the history of firearms development that became technologically obsolete once the technology of auto loading was solved. Hence, I consider it a fun gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The lever action checks all the boxes needed to hunt deer under 200 yards. There’s nothing wrong with hunting deer with a lever gun. It does the job. But when the question becomes which gun does the job best, the lever gun isn’t the answer...particularly if it’s a tube feed design. I have no hate for the lever gun. And I can even understand the love to the extent that it’s based on a historic/nostalgic sentimentality. But I can’t go along with trying to pretend that it’s anything more than an interesting chapter in the history of firearms development that became technologically obsolete once the technology of auto loading was solved. Hence, I consider it a fun gun. Especially in states like PA where you can't use a Semi-auto to hunt with. When brush hunting it's a lot easier (at least for me) to get a follow up shot with a lever gun than a bolt action. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:10:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For it's intended purpose it's just as good, or better than, any other rifle. A lot of the shit you listed in your initial post doesn't even apply to Eastern deer hunting. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:11:59 AM EDT
[#15]
Still used for hunting. But the round is ballistically close to 7.62x39 and costs at least $1 per round for "cheap" factory ammo so not great for plinking.
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:12:51 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, where did the bad lever gun touch you? nonsensical? You don’t think that’s a nonsensical argument? |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:14:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Name me the scenario where a lever gun or shotgun is going to be the superior option to an AR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The AR wasn't limited to ten rounds; IIRC the AR shooters were using 30-rounders loaded to capacity. The courses of fire were such that high volumes of fire were not required - engaging three or four targets at close range in a canyon, then reaching out 100-120yds to hit 8-inch steel. In a realistic scenario, probably involving one or two opponents with handguns or maybe cheap rifles, seven rounds of a much more powerful cartridge than 5.56 is not at a practical disadvantage to the AR. I hate to break it to you, but overwhelming volume of fire is rarely needed in a civilian or LE context. Unless I need precision or longer effective range, I'm probably reaching for the shotgun or .30-30. ARs have their purpose, but are not the end-all solution envisioned by many folks on this site. The shotgun and lever gun are both superior in those situations to an AR. I'm sure there are other states with similar restrictions. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:15:30 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I recommend corded tools for people that don't use them very often. Lower cost of entry for similar quality. And. In 5-10-20 years that corded tool is still going to be working. The cost of cordless is near equal. And the battery and motor tech is getting so good that cordless saws are now closing the gap on corded saws. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:16:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you need a gun that reloads slower so you can pace your afternoon of shooting or limit your ammo consumption? You don’t think that’s a nonsensical argument? Yes that is a nonsensical argument. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:18:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’re right. I should have used the comparison of a hand drill to a cordless drill...since we’re talking about the difference in trigger pull alone versus manual cranking. Feel better? The problem with your retort is that there are things that the bolt gun is capable of doing better than an AR and vice versa. The problem with the lever gun is that it does nothing better. It isn’t even a good compromise between accuracy and reload speed. Auto-loading tech has come too far. You can try and mince words by using “out of style” (which is listed as a synonym for obsolete, BTW), but it all means the same thing. It’s a fun and interesting chapter in firearms development. You can still use it effectively for some things the same as when it was first developed more than 100 years ago, just like the venerable old single action Army. But there is a new generation of tech out there that renders such an advantage that pretty much everyone who has a stake in surviving armed encounters decided to switch over to the new tech decades ago (actually a century ago if you want to include auto-loading pistols). Unless its in combat armed encounters are usually with hand guns. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:22:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is it better at? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For it's intended purpose it's just as good, or better than, any other rifle. A lot of the shit you listed in your initial post doesn't even apply to Eastern deer hunting. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:22:41 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is overkill? |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:25:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It’s as obsolete as the corded drill is. Can I drill a hole effectively with my old Skil drill? Yes. It runs like a champ. Are there situations where having to be within so many feet of a socket imposes no practical limitation on me? Sure. But even if I am just drilling one hole right next to a socket, i’m still more likely to grab my cordless drill. Why be tethered to a socket when I don’t need to be? Obsolete does not mean useless. But would any of us tell a guy who is just now building up his tool kit to make sure his first drill is a corded one? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Eventually, yes, but the staggering volume of guns produced in the chambering, the general well-rounded utility of the round and its weapons, and the overall conservatism of gun owners guarantees it will be a long and slow decline. In comparison, .30 carbine is a blip on the radar, disadvantaged by its short service span (both round and weapons), and inferior general utility. The entire rise and decline of the .30 carbine is contained well within the ongoing lifespan of .30 WCF. In the realm of slinging lead to kill things, there are only so many meaningful divisions to accomplish the task. .30-30 and lever guns admirably meet the demands of a very popular spot in that ballistic continuum. Until a major paradigm shift upsets the mature industry of cartridge firearms, .30-30 will never be obsolete. Even then, note that muzzleloaders are not extinct. Can I drill a hole effectively with my old Skil drill? Yes. It runs like a champ. Are there situations where having to be within so many feet of a socket imposes no practical limitation on me? Sure. But even if I am just drilling one hole right next to a socket, i’m still more likely to grab my cordless drill. Why be tethered to a socket when I don’t need to be? Obsolete does not mean useless. But would any of us tell a guy who is just now building up his tool kit to make sure his first drill is a corded one? ...because I don't even own a cordless, but I do use multiple corded drills, a breast drill, and brace & bit quite regularly.
It's not your fault, and I don't mean to be obtuse, but that was hilarious. 
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:25:35 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody is trying to prop it up. And most of the defensiveness is due to you trying to claim it can't do anymore what it has done for over a hundred years. Claiming something is better is all relative. I certainly didn't put down auto guns or bolts in any point I was making. I guess that 8 pointer I shot last fall shouldn't have fallen over when I shot it with my lever 30-30 obsolete nonsensical lever gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: He’s not “putting it down”. He’s correctly stating the advantages of auto-loaders, particularly box magazine fed autos. If there is defensiveness in this thread, it’s going to be found in the posts that try to prop up the lever gun. Because those are the ones that try and ignore or diminish what are fairly obvious facts. I can like shooting or hunting with a gun that is adequate for the task without having to claim that it’s the best or equal to more modern designs. That’s all I and others are saying. When going to the range or to punch holes in Bambi, my life isn’t on the line. So there’s plenty of room to use things that are fun to use. But there’s no need to justify it further than that. I certainly didn't put down auto guns or bolts in any point I was making. I guess that 8 pointer I shot last fall shouldn't have fallen over when I shot it with my lever 30-30 obsolete nonsensical lever gun.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:30:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well give them my number so I can talk them out of it. The cost of cordless is near equal. And the battery and motor tech is getting so good that cordless saws are now closing the gap on corded saws. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I recommend corded tools for people that don't use them very often. Lower cost of entry for similar quality. And. In 5-10-20 years that corded tool is still going to be working. The cost of cordless is near equal. And the battery and motor tech is getting so good that cordless saws are now closing the gap on corded saws. For a pro, cordless is the shit. For a prosumer, cordless is nice. For a person that uses it to do a couple things a few times a year, cordless is tarded. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:31:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nobody is trying to prop it up. And most of the defensiveness is due to you trying to claim it can't do anymore what it has done for over a hundred years. Claiming something is better is all relative. I certainly didn't put down auto guns or bolts in any point I was making. I guess that 8 pointer I shot last fall shouldn't have fallen over when I shot it with my lever 30-30 obsolete nonsensical lever gun. Yes, a lever gun does in 2018 what it did in 1918. Congrats! But no one claimed otherwise. Nor did anyone claim it won’t drop an 8-pointer. But the argument is about whether or not the 30-30 is waning and if so, why. The answer is yes it is waning and the why is because it’s tech that is obsolete. And here’s the thing, the bolt gun will be obsolete too if auto-loading tech ever advances far enough to catch up to bolt-gun accuracy in a package easily affordable to the mass market. I just don’t get the butthurt. I understand how tech is going. It’s as obvious as the nose on our faces. But there’s no shame owning or enjoying an odsolete design. But why the need to pretend that it isn’t obsolete? Why isn’t it enough to say I enjoy it and it’s adequate? It isn’t a put down to discuss objectively measurable performance differences. Am I putting down a Model T by saying a Ford GT vastly out performs it in terms of horsepower and speed? |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:31:31 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still used for hunting. But the round is ballistically close to 7.62x39 and costs at least $1 per round for "cheap" factory ammo so not great for plinking. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:32:38 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bro. You're trying to hard. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:33:39 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And you keep posting because why, bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bro. You're trying to hard. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:35:07 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I buy the hell out of 30-30 at $13 a box. The high dollar stuff is $16 a box. Academy discounts it all the time too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Still used for hunting. But the round is ballistically close to 7.62x39 and costs at least $1 per round for "cheap" factory ammo so not great for plinking. I ordered enough of it years ago to fill every tag I draw until I'm an old man. I've saved all the brass though so once it starts to get down to the last few boxes I'll order up some components and reload a pile of it. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:35:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’re using a straw man argument. Yes, a lever gun does in 2018 what it did in 1918. Congrats! But no one claimed otherwise. Nor did anyone claim it won’t drop an 8-pointer. But the argument is about whether or not the 30-30 is waning and if so, why. The answer is yes it is waning and the why is because it’s tech that is obsolete. And here’s the thing, the bolt gun will be obsolete too if auto-loading tech ever advances far enough to catch up to bolt-gun accuracy in a package easily affordable to the mass market. I just don’t get the butthurt. I understand how tech is going. It’s as obvious as the nose on our faces. But there’s no shame owning or enjoying an odsolete design. But why the need to pretend that it isn’t obsolete? Why isn’t it enough to say I enjoy it and it’s adequate? It isn’t a put down to discuss objectively measurable performance differences. Am I putting down a Model T by saying a Ford GT vastly out performs it in terms of horsepower and speed? Being obsolete is not the same as losing popularity. Which we all concede it is. You have those terms confused. The 30-30 levergun w/without scope is still a very viable brush gun everywhere. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:36:05 AM EDT
[#32]
A lever gun is way better for still hunting. The receiver profile is perfect for carrying. It’s instant to the shoulder and quick to point the HOB of the sights facilitates accurate snap-shooting.
That plus it’s not an ugly soulless creation. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:36:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This must mean it's .30-30 picture time.  https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4620/25365881727_59ed2d1995_b.jpg Is that a Mountain Lion engraved/etched onto the receiver? ( Looks like a JM not a "RemLin"...) |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:38:21 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You’re using a straw man argument. Yes, a lever gun does in 2018 what it did in 1918. Congrats! But no one claimed otherwise. Nor did anyone claim it won’t drop an 8-pointer. But the argument is about whether or not the 30-30 is waning and if so, why. The answer is yes it is waning and the why is because it’s tech that is obsolete. And here’s the thing, the bolt gun will be obsolete too if auto-loading tech ever advances far enough to catch up to bolt-gun accuracy in a package easily affordable to the mass market. I just don’t get the butthurt. I understand how tech is going. It’s as obvious as the nose on our faces. But there’s no shame owning or enjoying an odsolete design. But why the need to pretend that it isn’t obsolete? Why isn’t it enough to say I enjoy it and it’s adequate? It isn’t a put down to discuss objectively measurable performance differences. Am I putting down a Model T by saying a Ford GT vastly out performs it in terms of horsepower and speed? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Nobody is trying to prop it up. And most of the defensiveness is due to you trying to claim it can't do anymore what it has done for over a hundred years. Claiming something is better is all relative. I certainly didn't put down auto guns or bolts in any point I was making. I guess that 8 pointer I shot last fall shouldn't have fallen over when I shot it with my lever 30-30 obsolete nonsensical lever gun. Yes, a lever gun does in 2018 what it did in 1918. Congrats! But no one claimed otherwise. Nor did anyone claim it won’t drop an 8-pointer. But the argument is about whether or not the 30-30 is waning and if so, why. The answer is yes it is waning and the why is because it’s tech that is obsolete. And here’s the thing, the bolt gun will be obsolete too if auto-loading tech ever advances far enough to catch up to bolt-gun accuracy in a package easily affordable to the mass market. I just don’t get the butthurt. I understand how tech is going. It’s as obvious as the nose on our faces. But there’s no shame owning or enjoying an odsolete design. But why the need to pretend that it isn’t obsolete? Why isn’t it enough to say I enjoy it and it’s adequate? It isn’t a put down to discuss objectively measurable performance differences. Am I putting down a Model T by saying a Ford GT vastly out performs it in terms of horsepower and speed? There is nothing obsolete about the 30-30, there is one sitting in almost every gun collection, the ammo is all over the place, and it does exactly what it is supposed to do. When something becomes obsolete it means it is outdated, no longer used, and no longer practical. The 30-30 isn't really any of those things, it's just an old and steadily popular round, like the 30-06. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:39:54 AM EDT
[#35]
They began to decline in popularity after the AK74 came out (like most other calibers as well)
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:40:01 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not being bulky. My 45-70 Guide Gun, even with the XS rail and Leupold Scout Scope, is handy as hell, and for me, swinging that lever is more satisfying and easier than running a bolt. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:40:19 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, he said one of the best rather than the best. I guess if we’re looking at a list that is comprised of Muzzle loaders, Manual mechanical loaders and Auto-loaders, then a lever gun is one of the best by virtue of coming in 2nd. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No, it didn't. I guess if we’re looking at a list that is comprised of Muzzle loaders, Manual mechanical loaders and Auto-loaders, then a lever gun is one of the best by virtue of coming in 2nd. But this is something I've noticed in discussions like this over the years (not just here, but other forums as well). Fans of lever guns will try to make that point, and the ones who consider it obsolete always miss that point. My .30-30 is doing duty as a truck/defense/SHTF/get-my-ass-home gun. I know it's not "the best" option available, but it doesn't have to be. It's damn good at what it does, and that's all that matters. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:41:23 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’d say it’s more a matter of Winchester being an expensive Japanese Gun now, and Remington ruining Marlin. Henry makes a lot of models, but all I ever see are the 22s. Even back in 2007-2009, you could not just go out and buy a brand-new Winchester, especially for $400. In 2012, I "stumbled upon" a USED Win M1894 Trapper in 44 Mag. That one, Made in USA, (No ugly Crossbolt safety or Tang-mounted Safety, either) set me back $450, but I got 2 1/2 boxes of Factory Ammo and the Rifle was about 97-98% "Brand New" condition... I thought that was a deal. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:44:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I buy lever guns to handle them, sleek, light, sexy, wood grain, the way a gun should look and feel, you are taking things way to fuckin serious, lighten the fuck up. But i’m the one taking things too seriously? Why? Because I care less about wood grain? Or maybe I have a different opinion on the way a gun should look and feel? So when I feel a certain way, I am taking it too seriously? I mean, you take it seriously enough to post a response, right? OK for you to post your thoughts but not OK for me? Surely it can’t be hypocrisy. So I guess I need to lighten up and stop taking things so seriously so that you can lighten up and stop taking things so seriously?
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:44:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is true. My 94 30-30 fully loaded is lightweight, swings beautifully, and feels great in the hands. And it's slim. My 45-70 Guide Gun, even with the XS rail and Leupold Scout Scope, is handy as hell, and for me, swinging that lever is more satisfying and easier than running a bolt. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not being bulky. My 45-70 Guide Gun, even with the XS rail and Leupold Scout Scope, is handy as hell, and for me, swinging that lever is more satisfying and easier than running a bolt. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:44:26 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
with the advent of cheapass bolt actions like the ruger american while the leverguns stay around the same price or go up while the quality of some(marlin) goes down...i can see it becoming less popular. "Cheap", to me, means "not well made or reliable"... Just sayin' |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:46:25 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean "inexpensive", right? "Cheap", to me, means "not well made or reliable"... Just sayin' |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:48:06 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just takes forever to reload.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I did. With bullets cast on my back patio, my .30-30 rounds cost about the same as Tula .223. 2-4 boxes of full-power cast reloads makes for a great afternoon of shooting, and leverguns let you pace yourself more easily than ARs. Just takes forever to reload. 
They are fun though just for some pinking around the farm or on the range. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:48:44 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Is black powder technology obsolete? Yet they still manufacture them. ob·so·lete /äbs?'let/ adjective 1. no longer produced or used; out of date. If you go with red, they are not obsolete. If you go with blue, they are obsolete. I don't even hold to the red definition that strictly. Despite the Amish still making and using them, I would still call buggy whips obsolete. Obsolete lies somewhere between the buggy whip and the lever gun, but the lever gun is not obsolete. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:52:19 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And again, I didn't say the best, I said one of the best. Especially in states like PA where you can't use a Semi-auto to hunt with. When brush hunting it's a lot easier (at least for me) to get a follow up shot with a lever gun than a bolt action. Which has nothing to do with whether the tech is obsolete or whether the market as a whole is stepping away from the 30-30 and lever guns. Your making points about an argument that I never engaged in. The reality of the market is what it is. The fact that some states don’t allow centerfire rifles for deer hunting doesn’t change what the state of the art is. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:52:31 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It seems we are working with different defintions: ob·so·lete /äbs?'let/ adjective 1. no longer produced or used; out of date. If you go with red, they are not obsolete. If you go with blue, they are obsolete. I don't even hold to the red definition that strictly. Despite the Amish still making and using them, I would still call buggy whips obsolete. Obsolete lies somewhere between the buggy whip and the lever gun, but the lever gun is not obsolete. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is black powder technology obsolete? Yet they still manufacture them. ob·so·lete /äbs?'let/ adjective 1. no longer produced or used; out of date. If you go with red, they are not obsolete. If you go with blue, they are obsolete. I don't even hold to the red definition that strictly. Despite the Amish still making and using them, I would still call buggy whips obsolete. Obsolete lies somewhere between the buggy whip and the lever gun, but the lever gun is not obsolete. Now when we get lasers and rail guns, then shit will start becoming obsolete pretty fast. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:57:16 AM EDT
[#47]
Back in the good old days, 1950s-70s, every pickup truck in the, South had a .30-30 or .30-06 in the rear window. Don't see that anymore.
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Posted: 2/14/2018 11:58:41 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hunting in PA (no semi auto) or hunting in OH (no rifles allowed) The shotgun and lever gun are both superior in those situations to an AR. I'm sure there are other states with similar restrictions. Just because your local government won’t let you use something doesn’t mean that it isn’t better at doing the thing that the government makes you use an inferior tool for. No where were we talking about what you may or may not be able to use. We were talking about the advantages and disadvantages of the tech itself. I’m sorry you live in a state that so limits your rights. But that doesn’t change the objective qualities of available technology. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 12:05:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK. Now, can I buy an AR in Ohio? Can I use it for self defense? Just because your local government won’t let you use something doesn’t mean that it isn’t better at doing the thing that the government makes you use an inferior tool for. No where were we talking about what you may or may not be able to use. We were talking about the advantages and disadvantages of the tech itself. I’m sorry you live in a state that so limits your rights. But that doesn’t change the objective qualities of available technology. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Hunting in PA (no semi auto) or hunting in OH (no rifles allowed) The shotgun and lever gun are both superior in those situations to an AR. I'm sure there are other states with similar restrictions. Just because your local government won’t let you use something doesn’t mean that it isn’t better at doing the thing that the government makes you use an inferior tool for. No where were we talking about what you may or may not be able to use. We were talking about the advantages and disadvantages of the tech itself. I’m sorry you live in a state that so limits your rights. But that doesn’t change the objective qualities of available technology. If you want to keep moving goal posts to try to be right, that's fine. You asked when a lever gun or shotgun was a superior choice to an AR, and I gave you a good answer. |
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Posted: 2/14/2018 12:11:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea what you are talking about. 30-30 ammo is cheap enough I don't have to reload. Plus everyone shoots at their own pace. I like to get rounds on target more than just seeing how many I can shoot in an afternoon. Yes that is a nonsensical argument. The guy said he could reload lead 30-30 bullets as cheap as we can buy 5.56 ammo. Then he said that a lever gun “let” him shoot at a certain pace. Really, the advantage to a levergun is that I have to reload and lead up my barrel to break even in ammo costs with off the shelf stuff for an AR? And the AR is i guess somehow incapable of shooting at as slow a pace as a levergun? Those are nonsensical arguments. |
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