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Posted: 4/5/2021 9:36:14 AM EDT
[#1]
Germans design vehicles for Germans.
If you expect to maintain a German car like a typical American car, you will be disappointed. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 9:53:45 AM EDT
[#2]
My mk6 Golf was the epitome of this. To change the air filter in most cars it's a matter of flipping a couple of clips and removing the top of the filter box...easy and literally a 5 minute job.
Not so für ze Golf... because Klaus and Dieter decided to locate the air filter UNDER the engine cover. First, find a T20 driver to remove the air intake hose (two screws) from the housing by the grille. Then get some channel locks or other wide pliers to compress the hose clamp on the other air hose and remove that hose by the engine cover. Then remove the engine cover and turn it upside down. Locate the five (5) screws holding the air filter cover in place. Remove the screws, better to use a power drill/driver as the screws are long. Finally, replace air filter and re-attach everything. Give yourself at least 30 minutes. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 9:57:36 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea what is going on inside my 911. Some dark and arcane magic that is not meant to be understood by mere mortals like myself. I find it hilarious that when you open the “engine compartment” as the driver/owner of the vehicle, you basically get ZERO access to actual engine components. It’s like Porsche wants to emphasize that they believe you are too stupid to be allowed access, and don’t trust you.  lol! Most modern cars are doing this today with the engine 'armor' with small openings for fluid replenishment/checks. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 9:57:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My mk6 Golf was the epitome of this. To change the air filter in most cars it's a matter of flipping a couple of clips and removing the top of the filter box...easy and literally a 5 minute job. Not so für ze Golf... because Klaus and Dieter decided to locate the air filter UNDER the engine cover. First, find a T20 driver to remove the air intake hose (two screws) from the housing by the grille. Then get some channel locks or other wide pliers to compress the hose clamp on the other air hose and remove that hose by the engine cover. Then remove the engine cover and turn it upside down. Locate the five (5) screws holding the air filter cover in place. Remove the screws, better to use a power drill/driver as the screws are long. Finally, replace air filter and re-attach everything. Give yourself at least 30 minutes. MK5 FSI. not MK6. MK6 was TSI, air box to the side 6 torx screws. that FSI airbox is a pain in the ass. but its a 40k mile interval same as the spark plugs so no big deal. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 9:58:02 AM EDT
[#5]
I can't speak to much of this, but their elevator controls designs over the last 15 years are garbage.
The complexity is off the chart, and I think they chose to be 15 years behind so that they could make that complexity happen. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:00:39 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:29:22 AM EDT
[#7]
they can be some smart fellers.... but i do want to kick squarely in the sack the head guy who keeps teaching the new guys how to design and wire things....
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:33:18 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The German sensibility is toward massively complex workarounds to otherwise simple problems. I've been around these types. Guys that want to design synchronized gearboxes to attach a shaft to another when a simple pin driven through them both will do. True, but Germans are not nearly as legalistic as we are.......we all have our absurdities. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:33:19 AM EDT
[#9]
My exposure to German culture is that they delight in feeling clever; or at least more clever than you.
A good example of this is that while my second wife was working on her masters at TUM, I had a lot of exposure to German college students. All of their technical papers were written in English and being a native speaker I was often asked to help proofread. Every technical paper written in English by a native German speaker I have ever seen has been a massive collection of some of the worst run on sentences you can imagine. When I would point some of these out, the author would explain to me how they were grammatically correct. I would try to explain that even if grammatically correct, if the sentence was difficult to understand by the target audience, then it was poor writing. That entire concept baffled them; their attitude was that if it was grammatically correct and the reader couldn't easily follow, then it was the reader's fault for being stupid. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:34:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol! Most modern cars are doing this today with the engine 'armor' with small openings for fluid replenishment/checks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have no idea what is going on inside my 911. Some dark and arcane magic that is not meant to be understood by mere mortals like myself. I find it hilarious that when you open the “engine compartment” as the driver/owner of the vehicle, you basically get ZERO access to actual engine components. It’s like Porsche wants to emphasize that they believe you are too stupid to be allowed access, and don’t trust you. lol! Most modern cars are doing this today with the engine 'armor' with small openings for fluid replenishment/checks. I had never seen it before, and figured it was just them.
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:37:03 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Germans design vehicles for Germans. If you expect to maintain a German car like a typical American car, you will be disappointed. yeah, that's the warning I got when I bought a BMW. Dealer: "This your first BMW?" Me: "Yep." Dealer: "what do you own now?" Me: "Hondas and Toyotas." Dealer: "I'm gonna warn you now: German cars DO NOT handle deferred maintenance as well as Japanese cars. Stay on top of your maintenance." |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:38:47 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryThis. WTF is their love of ball joints all about? And wheel bolts vs studs and nuts... And the 10" long starter bolt that screws through two different threaded holes on the VW tdi diesels... |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:42:21 AM EDT
[#13]
As a bonifide Kraut, I can attest to the urge to overbuild things. It's genetic. If a nail is good, 3x deck screws are better- after a liberal coating of Liquid Nails.
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:44:37 AM EDT
[#14]
An adjustment device to raise or lower the windscreen on my BMW motorcycle? As in, loosen it and raise or lower the screen to alter airflow.
OEM:  Attached FileAmerican aftermarket. A simple cam lever:  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:46:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had never seen it before, and figured it was just them. this was factored in after the 964 when no one could seem to RTFM on checking the oil level, would check them cold engine off. manual specified engine at full temp and running. the result was a constant high overfill and blowing out of the crank seals. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:50:56 AM EDT
[#16]
One of the companies I'm responsible for is a German company in the biochem space. I love those guys; hard working, efficient, detail oriented, and they do their homework before they come to me. I never get dumb questions from that group, and they don't waste my time with dumb and avoidable mistakes. If only I could snap my fingers and replace everyone in the other companies under my responsibility with Germans...
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:52:13 AM EDT
[#17]
Bag on the Germans all you want. Everything in their country works, and when it eventually does need service the technician is trained and certified to do it. Moreover, they fix it correctly the first time...an absolutely unknown equation in the US. We lived way out in the German countryside for three years (not the Ramstein expat community), it was an eye-opening experience to have that kind of competency around you all the time.
Five brand new BMWs and currently driving a used 2011. Had exactly two issues in 20+ years...a window seal that failed in the Florida heat and a sunroof mechanism that got out of synch. We look for German products, because I know they'll outlive the Chinese shit Target and Walmart import by the shipload and sell to cheap, short-sighted American consumers. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:01:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't catch that, what? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Shhh, don't tell them. I didn't catch that, what? You don't speak German - only b/c you have your own Navy. 
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:05:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bastards couldn't design a baseball bat without ball bearings. 
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:07:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Germans mastered dispersed industry, Albert Speer is interesting. He got out of prison frequently to give talks on industry. Imagine building ME-262s out of Austrian caves. Some of their best production years were often 1944 or 1945 (if production that year continued on). That would be due to the insanity of Germany not shifting to a war economy until 1943. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:15:01 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's been said that designing war machines for ease of repair (and a willingness to tackle it among common soldiers and sailors) gave the US a decided edge in WWII. If a US truck broke down, some GI would grab a wrench and start working on it. If a French or German truck broke down, it sat there until a "specialist" could be dispatched to it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The MAS-36 rifle is the epitome of the “we don’t trust Soldat Pierre” way of thinking. Want to adjust the rear sight? Take it to the armorer, only he has the rear sight inserts. Want to clean under the handguards? Take it to the armorer, only he has the special tool to remove the screws. Sheesh. It's been said that designing war machines for ease of repair (and a willingness to tackle it among common soldiers and sailors) gave the US a decided edge in WWII. If a US truck broke down, some GI would grab a wrench and start working on it. If a French or German truck broke down, it sat there until a "specialist" could be dispatched to it. The Italian trucks never left the motor pool, and if a Russian truck broke, it sat there until the U.S. tax payer sent them a replacement. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:30:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The German sensibility is toward massively complex workarounds to otherwise simple problems. I've been around these types. Guys that want to design synchronized gearboxes to attach a shaft to another when a simple pin driven through them both will do. This is going to work out real well for them when a third of their workforce took a boat over from Goatfuckistan. I think we're possibly on the last century of people speculating about the German mentality about anything. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:45:02 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:50:52 AM EDT
[#24]
My father was born in Germany and a tool and die maker by trade.
He never saw a project he couldn't make more complicated. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:11:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Ah yes. Germans. I'm german and it took me many years to overcome my desire to make things as complicated as possible.
I have a BMW F650GS motorcycle. According to the manual, to change engine oil you first have to take off the left front turnsignal. 9 bolts to take of the left cover. 3 bolts to remove the oil tank. One bolt to drain it. 3 bolts to take off the skidplate. One bolt to drain the sump. 3 bolts to take off the front chain guard. 3 bolts to take off the oil filter cover. Install special $100 BMW tool so oil doesn't run all over the engine. (or use some aluminum foil, same thing) Now ve shall dance....... TYCOM |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:14:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Something something point of diminishing returns something something .
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:22:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My 2007 335i was a masterpiece of simplicity under the hood. Could replace all six spark plugs in 30 minutes. Could replace the air filter by popping two snaps. My 2010 E550 was a masterpiece of complexity under the hood. I never bothered to change the spark plugs. Just changing the engine air filters was a 30min ordeal. It was a very schizo experience that made me distrustful of the Germans. THIS is what made you distrustful of the Germans? |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:24:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their design, machining, steel and heat treating is world class. Their printing equipment doesn't suck. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThSRfoikBtcUCMOtvjDtKRtJnw1gWgf4ESBQ&usqp=CAU |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:46:40 PM EDT
[#29]
German engineering is terrible.
There is no such thing as "over engineering". That's a term used to describe poor engineering by someone who doesn't understand good engineering. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:49:37 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: German engineering is terrible. There is no such thing as "over engineering". That's a term used to describe poor engineering by someone who doesn't understand good engineering. An engineer knows he has achieved perfection not when he has nothing left to add, but when he has nothing left to take away. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 12:58:16 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: THIS is what made you distrustful of the Germans? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My 2007 335i was a masterpiece of simplicity under the hood. Could replace all six spark plugs in 30 minutes. Could replace the air filter by popping two snaps. My 2010 E550 was a masterpiece of complexity under the hood. I never bothered to change the spark plugs. Just changing the engine air filters was a 30min ordeal. It was a very schizo experience that made me distrustful of the Germans. THIS is what made you distrustful of the Germans? no, actually it was this: 
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Posted: 4/5/2021 1:34:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember owning a 1974 Audi Fox in college. Delightful little car, but finding things like the fuse box or ignition coil took some imagination. To say the Germans do things differently is a vast understatement. Isnt that a JUMO 211 in your avatar? |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 1:37:00 PM EDT
[#33]
The last LWD engineering group I worked in spent the majority of 20yrs their time re-engineering every tool designed by the German team so they didn't fall apart downhole in less than an hour or snap in half, or unscrew. Besides designing garbage the Germans spent the the same amount of time trying to undermine all the American designed tools to senior management (and eventually succeeded).
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Posted: 4/5/2021 1:54:17 PM EDT
[#34]
The dark arts have been good to me.
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Posted: 4/5/2021 2:12:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Anybody who has taken apart and reassembled a German HK roller-locked family burst trigger group can raise their hands in the complexity department.
I have to hand it to them though, it is really amazing the number of little parts that HK engineers figured out how to stuff into that small legacy fire control trigger box to make it have a resetting 3rd burst position. Its also amazing how well it actually works when kept clean and lubed. That said, its pretty clear that nobody took a step back and said, wow this is an amazing invention that we just created and look at how clever this is..... but you know what...this is completely asinine on a combat/duty weapon to have like 25+ individual parts & springs just to enable the hammer to be released and hit the firing pin. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 2:49:15 PM EDT
[#36]
They do it in software as well!
When I first started being a 'power user' in SAP, one of the Indian developers told me, in a hushed tone, as if Ze Germans might be lurking behind a file cabinet, "My friend, the Germans are still fighting world war II, and they're doing it with SAP!" |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 2:51:09 PM EDT
[#37]
German cars and guns are far superior to the products of other countries.
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Posted: 4/5/2021 3:25:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: German cars and guns are far superior to the products of other countries. User name is appropriate. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 3:34:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea what is going on inside my 911. Some dark and arcane magic that is not meant to be understood by mere mortals like myself. I find it hilarious that when you open the “engine compartment” as the driver/owner of the vehicle, you basically get ZERO access to actual engine components. It’s like Porsche wants to emphasize that they believe you are too stupid to be allowed access, and don’t trust you. Future Cayman owner. DK-Prof preaches the truth. |
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Posted: 4/5/2021 3:43:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Future Cayman owner. DK-Prof preaches the truth. Which Cayman? I’ve got a 987, but the GT4 has been calling my name. |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 12:22:54 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which Cayman? I’ve got a 987, but the GT4 has been calling my name. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Future Cayman owner. DK-Prof preaches the truth. Which Cayman? I’ve got a 987, but the GT4 has been calling my name. @BigFatDog GTS 4.0 |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 12:40:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Observe the beauty and simplicity of the Chevy LS V8 engine. Compact, powerful, available everywhere! The choice for hot rodders everywhere. You can probably get parts for this in the middle of Yemen and some dude riding in on a camel could repair it.
 Now, observe an Audi DOHC V8. Whatever German who had been reading his own press about German efficiency and then designed this monstrosity should be kicked in the nuts repeatedly and then have a VW carved on his forehead like the Inglorious Basterd that he is. Look at that thing. It's horrible. It should come with a warning like a Nintendo, letting you know that prolonged viewing can cause seizures and a desire to invade Poland.  German efficiency is highly overrated. Whenever someone says that phrase, substitute it with German Complexity and you'll have the correct idea. I owned a BMW with a V8 for 9 years, all out of warranty. So yes, I have thoughts on this. |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 12:48:32 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isnt that a JUMO 211 in your avatar? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I remember owning a 1974 Audi Fox in college. Delightful little car, but finding things like the fuse box or ignition coil took some imagination. To say the Germans do things differently is a vast understatement. Isnt that a JUMO 211 in your avatar? Good eye! Yes it is. Jumo 211J to be exact. It's hung on a Junkers Ju-88A4. |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 1:24:57 AM EDT
[#44]
Obviously, none of you have ever owned a fine Swedish automobile such as the Volvo or Saab. My engineering buddy always enjoyed working on them because those herpah-derpah Scandoids just have a uniquely different way of doing things. Their Things work, and they work well, but no one other than a Swede would design them like that. They make the Germans look practically Slavic.
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Posted: 4/6/2021 1:31:57 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Observe the beauty and simplicity of the Chevy LS V8 engine. Compact, powerful, available everywhere! The choice for hot rodders everywhere. You can probably get parts for this in the middle of Yemen and some dude riding in on a camel could repair it. http://assets.superchevy.com/f/61898858.jpg Now, observe an Audi DOHC V8. Whatever German who had been reading his own press about German efficiency and then designed this monstrosity should be kicked in the nuts repeatedly and then have a VW carved on his forehead like the Inglorious Basterd that he is. Look at that thing. It's horrible. It should come with a warning like a Nintendo, letting you know that prolonged viewing can cause seizures and a desire to invade Poland. https://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/automotive/212068d1561052770-does-your-car-have-timing-belt-9260e79a-54c9-49ea-8949-eab7da12748c.jpeg German efficiency is highly overrated. Whenever someone says that phrase, substitute it with German Complexity and you'll have the correct idea. I owned a BMW with a V8 for 9 years, all out of warranty. So yes, I have thoughts on this. Warum einfach wenn es auch kompliziert geht? |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 1:49:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When it comes to mechanical engineering contrivances...I stick to the notion that those who truly understand it can make it simple. If something lacks complexity and works really well, the designer understood the problem and solution really well. Complexity is not inherently a sign of superior design. I agree. |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 2:45:09 AM EDT
[#47]
Mother of god ....
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Posted: 4/6/2021 3:00:01 AM EDT
[#48]
As a person having a full blooded German GF who happens to drive a VW EOS which has to be one of the more complex VW's built, i agreed with everything said in this thread.
Very precise mindset, the parents used to say breakfast at 8am... not a minute later, better arrive early...but not too early. If we were 2 minutes late her dad would bitch because his perfectly timed 3 minute eggs would be over cooked. And the GRASS... OMG, it had to be cut to an exact height, and a specific pattern. Her mom would stress out if the grass wasn't cut soon enough, like cut it right now, this morning, not after lunch, not tomorrow now,. I'm still working on getting that crazy out of the GF after 10 years of trying. |
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Posted: 4/6/2021 3:02:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Germans have cup holders that push to open and have delicate fold down bases. Americans have molded plastic openings. Which one is gonna break or be easier to clean? Mercedes Saab - great compromise 
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Posted: 4/6/2021 3:24:34 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mercedes https://steemitimages.com/p/BRWJ2YmdUFozvi1TFqcAtjm7WFJ3pNdoPxdYi9DqcSi4qQmb?format=match&mode=fit Saab - great compromise https://i.imgur.com/TnrFF5J.gif?noredirect Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Germans have cup holders that push to open and have delicate fold down bases. Americans have molded plastic openings. Which one is gonna break or be easier to clean? Mercedes https://steemitimages.com/p/BRWJ2YmdUFozvi1TFqcAtjm7WFJ3pNdoPxdYi9DqcSi4qQmb?format=match&mode=fit Saab - great compromise https://i.imgur.com/TnrFF5J.gif?noredirect Porsche - 911 
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