[ARCHIVED THREAD] - s/o Why has Cowboy Action Shooting lost so much popularity in the U.S. ? (Poll added) (Page 5 of 10)
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It sounds like the club plays a big part. I shoot CAS, started 2 years ago. Bought two pistols $1400 total(cimaron evil roys),$1000 rifle(taylor 1873), and a cheap $175 chinese SxS. I only paid the extra $150 a piece for the evil roys as that was all that would arrive in time to make the shoot 4 days later. Plus a cheap $70 ebay double holster belt made in mexico. And an inexpensive hat from the western store near my house.
My club' CAS match is pretty relaxed. Boots of some type, jeans, button up collared shirt, hat, and you are good to go. I don't shoot to compete, I shoot for fun. I just continually better my own performance, and see how I do against similar opponents. It's for fun vs trying to win for me. |
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Quoted: Call it BS but at 2g for an Colt SAA I would have to say I'll stick with my Vaquero's until my income takes a serious windfall. I got rid of mine, but never bought a second model. |
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I have no interest in it because I don’t want to dress up like a cowboy. I’m Asian. I have my dignity. There were no Asian cowboys in the old West and I’m not going to pretend there ever was. But if they change it up to be revolver shooting and lever-action rifle shooting in a furry costume, then hellz yeah, I’m in! 
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I'm pretty ignorant of SASS and single actions, so forgive the question, but... how is a Ruger Vaquero "gamer bullshit"? In 3-gun and USPSA, when I think gamer guns, I think STI Limited .40S&W double stack with the big mag well and barely major loads or Open with an EAA Witness and C-More bolted to it shooting .38 Super with a Ghost belt rig. And a Vaquero looks like a Colt SSA, Beretta Stampede, etc., at least to my untrained eye. Quoted:
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The dominance of the fake old west Ruger Vaquero and other gamer bullshit is why I have no interest in it. Nothing against the people who shoot it though, most of the members of my range are CAS shooters and they are mostly good people. In 3-gun and USPSA, when I think gamer guns, I think STI Limited .40S&W double stack with the big mag well and barely major loads or Open with an EAA Witness and C-More bolted to it shooting .38 Super with a Ghost belt rig. And a Vaquero looks like a Colt SSA, Beretta Stampede, etc., at least to my untrained eye. |
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Quoted: I think the newer model Vaquero corrected some of the deficiencies of the first model. I got rid of mine, but never bought a second model. |
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I have zero of the guns or gear required to shoot CASS, how much will it reasonably cost for me to get started? How useful are those firearms otherwise? How well do the skills and techniques learned translate to the “real world”? These are the primary obstacles it faces. People would rather shoot with guns and gear they already own, like an AR-15 or a semi-automatic handgun. And they feel like the skills they learn shooting those arms are more practical. Also, shooting 9mm and 5.56 for matches is cheap. Pretty much all the CASS shooters at my club reload to make their match ammo cheap, but that’s a whole other massive upfront cost. |
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IMHO. It got expensive Unless you owned authentic cowboy clothes (expensive, kind of like authentic WW2 garb) you were kind of looked down on Like a guy showing up at a bike riding event in gym shorts on a huffy I did my first action shooting in jeans and a bare bones safariland belt. Now I shoot 3-gun with the same belt I shoot everything else with and have a hodgepodge of brands and types of pouches. I got hooked on the competition and outshooting people who think the gear is a bigger driver than the technique. Not saying I'm going pro, but I haven't finished bottom half yet, so there must be something to basics and accuracy over gear and doing what everyone else does. I might borrow a revolver and go shoot in my jeans and hiking boots. Might even where a ball cap to really piss them off. |
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As a damned yougin' that went to a "Try Cowboy Action shooting" event once in college, I call tell you why it didn't appeal to me.
1) Cost. At that time in life, I didn't have money to spend on guns which had a single, non-self defense, related purpose. I did eventually go through that phase, but with a kid on the way, I've found myself not planning on buying any "race guns" in the future. Practical purpose guns? Maybe. More on this in #2. 2) The type of guns involved. No doubt it was cool to shoot those guns, but not cooler than shooting an EBR or take your pick of a modern/modernized semi-auto handgun during competition or an advanced drill. When I got to the station in life when I was thinking about buying "guns for a completion", those guns were not cowboy style guns. I'd rather have plopped down money for guns of a more modern weapon oriented sport, something that I could conceivably used for hunting or self defense. 3) Yes, I have to say, the dress up aspect turned me off. Its the same reason I got turned off by the hardcore airsoft crew. |
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The biggest thing is probably just sheer expense. The guns and gear (primarily holsters and such) aren't exactly cheap, and most aren't particularly suited to many other uses. Contrast with any of the "practical" shooting sports, where you can show up with your carry rig (for pistol comps), SHTF rifle (for rifle/multigen), or whatever and just run it. While you certainly can build gamer guns that don't have much other use, it's not a requirement for participation. And of course there are plenty of matches where you only need one gun. Contrast that with the CAS matches I normally see advertised, where you need four guns just to participate. Yes, while I'm sure you can get loaners as a new shooter, if you want to stick with it, it's a lot more investment than shooting IDPA SSP or USPSA Production. (Or even most multigun stuff.)
Second is probably the whole "costume" and nickname thing. Yeah, you don't have to do much, but it's still a requirement. Depending on the local crowd, may be seen as a bigger or smaller deal. If you've got a ton of die-hards trying to recruit new blood, it can be a real turn-off when people think they have to do the whole getup just to shoot. Quoted:
There were no power factors, regular users of mouse farts were considered wimpy but they were not specifically disallowed. |
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Slicked up Vaqueros with action jobs and powder puff loads. Can't a SAA clone be slicked up? |
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I might borrow a revolver and go shoot in my jeans and hiking boots. Might even where a ball cap to really piss them off. Or maybe your local matches are different from the ones I've always seen. I've never seen - or even heard of - a one-revolver CAS match. |
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Powder puff loads I get. I consider that a failure of the sanctioning body for not having minimum power factor. Steel Challenge gets around this by having divisions for centerfire w/ power factor and rimfire. Want light recoil, shoot rimfire. Want to shoot big boy guns, shoot centerfire. ETA: Last I checked, 3GN rules also don't have PF, but they also have a lot of ambiguities that are ripe for abuse - both by sadistic MDs and by power-puff-loving gamers. (They don't have PF either, but do have a vague calibration standard for steel poppers - meaning that somebody can absolutely get away with powder-puff loads by the rules, but on the same hand, a nasty director could calibrate all of the steel with a 9 Major Open gun and be within the rules as well.) IDPA, IPSC, and USPSA are those who require minimum power factors. |
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I want to start a "dress-up" period shooting sport. Costumes optional, real shooting. Retro Cop. Pump shotgun and revolver. TJHookerAdam12DragnetHillStreetBlues Action Shooting. Who's in? Members Only Jacket, Gargoyle Glasses, Reebok High Tops, and a Delorean. Guns can be a S&W 4506, Remington 870 Wingmaster, and a Mini-14. |
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That was one of the things that killed IDPA for me. I got really tired of the gamers and the arbitrary rules. That and the range that had it here was a bunch of assholes and pissed me off. I really wanted to set up to shoot my Anaconda though. Never did. Max loads of slow burning powder and light bullets in a 4" 44 Magnum would have been fun on the indoor range w/ them.  Quoted:
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I haven't shot SASS/CAS for about 2 years. I've been thinking of getting back into it. The main reasons I think people don't shoot it already have been stated: 1. Dressing up - I don't mind it and have put together several outfits 2. expense of arms - The days of cheap uberti revolvers are long gone. 3. Gamerisms - This is kinda why I quit. Having grown men shooting gamer 38's with barely enough powder to register as a mouse fart is lame. To be more gamer they've even came up with a special 45 load that uses brass shorter than schoefield or 45ACP. 4. Not popular - Westerns aren't popular anymore Shooting CAS I like how the matches are run. It doesn't take long to reset ranges for the next shooter. Most shoots were 4-7 stages and the match doesn't drag since stages can be reset from shooter to shooter so fast. Usually shoot starts at 10am, over by 2pm. Yes some of the stages can be hokey, and having alias is cheesy, but most shooting sports are. I've seen an IDPA/IPSC (don't remember) match where you start the stage lying down in bed. Its a game, nothing more. I wish they would open up the rulebook for period correct arms. The rules are written in such a manner to drive everyone to the same guns. Can't use a 45-70 in main matches, rifles and shotguns have to have exposed hammers, etc. There's plenty of period correct arms that would be fun to use; Krags, 95 Winchesters, 86 Winchesters, Martini Henrys, double action pistols like Webley, etc....all forbidden. |
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I laugh at all the guys bitching about the dressing up, yet I bet you if I do a search in the Armory subforum they have posts about their plate carrier, kpots, and multicam. That's different than going to the range, calling yourself SGT Ramirez, and pretending your are a SF operator during 3 gun matches. This is coming from a guy who has no plate carrier (though I would like to get one ), no multicam, and doesn't even know what a kpot is.
I think of it as sort of like how my grandmother bought earthquake insurance, despite living hundreds of miles from any known serious quake ever. Or how my father sleeps with a gun next to his bed, despite living in a area where home invasions are exceedingly rare. People see risks and take measures that they think are needed to mitigate them, even if when looking at the big picture they don't seem that necessary. |
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The biggest thing is probably just sheer expense. The guns and gear (primarily holsters and such) aren't exactly cheap, and most aren't particularly suited to many other uses. Contrast with any of the "practical" shooting sports, where you can show up with your carry rig (for pistol comps), SHTF rifle (for rifle/multigen), or whatever and just run it. While you certainly can build gamer guns that don't have much other use, it's not a requirement for participation. And of course there are plenty of matches where you only need one gun. Contrast that with the CAS matches I normally see advertised, where you need four guns just to participate. Yes, while I'm sure you can get loaners as a new shooter, if you want to stick with it, it's a lot more investment than shooting IDPA SSP or USPSA Production. (Or even most multigun stuff.) Second is probably the whole "costume" and nickname thing. Yeah, you don't have to do much, but it's still a requirement. Depending on the local crowd, may be seen as a bigger or smaller deal. If you've got a ton of die-hards trying to recruit new blood, it can be a real turn-off when people think they have to do the whole getup just to shoot. Maybe I'm getting this confused with something else, but doesn't CAS/SASS actually have the opposite of power factors - that is, maximum allowable velocities? If I'm remembering correctly, when I looked through the rules for whatever it was, I realized that I do not have a single round of ammunition that would be legal for use in that sport, despite actually having revolvers (and at one time, rifles) that would otherwise be legal. That was yet another turnoff. |
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I used to shoot CAS. One of the things that torqued me off was the retarded B.S. regarding the actual firearms allowed. Supposedly the rule was the gun had to exist during the "Frontier Period". 1890 or prior. OK. What about all the 1897 Winchester pumps? Those damn sure were NOT on the Frontier. STFU I was told. One fellow turned up with a no shit 1886 Spencer pump shotgun that was most certainly a frontier period gun. He was DQ'ed. 
Another guy tried to use an 1880's British Webley. NOPE! Not allowed. 
I always thought there should be a .22LR classification allowed. This would allow for low cost, entry level folks as well as another class for experienced shooters to play in. But NOOOOOOOOOOO. The gamers could shoot mouse fart centerfire loads all day long but .22lr "wasn't in the spirit of the game". 
Had my fill and walked away. Denim jeans, cotton shirt and a leather jacket? Naw, that ain't right, cowpoke. You cain't shoot like that! They never had anything like that! They also get real miffed if you've got a double action revolver. They were very popular even before the 1892 became the Army's standard sidearm. "I ain't never heard of no 1877! Yer fulla sheeeiiit!" |
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They made a couple of attempts to pass a regulation specifying a minimum load, but the screeching from the gamers drowned it out both times that I saw it come up. Quoted:
They made a couple of attempts to pass a regulation specifying a minimum load, but the screeching from the gamers drowned it out both times that I saw it come up. It's a whole 60.
(PF = bullet in grains x muzzle vel. in fps / 1000. For comparison, Minor PF in USPSA is 125 and Major PF is 165.) Maximum velocity on revos is 1000 fps, so that's not bad. The bad part is this: REVOLVER AND RIFLE AMMUNITION - May not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, plated, gas checked, or copper washed. It must be all lead. Moly-Disulfide, polymer coated bullets, or equivalents are acceptable. |
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I have a rule set written out somewhere... Quoted:
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I still say I could get people to come out for a 70/80s cop shoot with revolvers and pump shotguns   Magnum Force (5/10) Movie CLIP - Shooting Competition (1973) HD |
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Jerry Miculek has shot the Zombies in the Heartland match for the past several years. He's a great squad member - helps reset, tape, score, etc. He's friendly too. Quoted:
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When i shot 2 gun, 3 gun, IDPA and outlaw pistol some of the worst shooters were also the worst helpers. I don't like those types of people. I may not can shoot like Jerry, but I can tape about as good as him I bet. FWIW a friend shot CAS for probably 25 years and ran his local club most of that time. He would tell you not to come back if you had a bad attitude or did not help out. |
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Saying "posse is a squad" isn't telling me any more. What's a squad? In the other shooting events I've done, IDPA, 3-Gun, Steel Challenge. You are solo. So... I'm still not understanding what about cowboy action shooting is a team event. I've observed it a couple times if anything was team oriented it wasn't obvious. Quoted:
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Quoted: From what I've seen at all the SASS matches I've shot the weaker the loads the person shoots, the weaker posse member they are. By weak I mean: 1. Not helping out posse (manning loading/unloading table, helping count misses, pick up brass, etc). They shoot then they wander off to find out times of other top shooters. 2. Though its not allowed, they constantly ghost shoot the stage to get the feel of it (Nevada sweep with rifle then one pistol, etc) 3. They put the least amount of effort into stage participation. If the stage calls for throwing a lasso for example, they toss it 2 feet then carry on with their shooting 4. Their s#$ty mouse fart reloads have failures to ignite, then they cry about a reshoot. 5. The slightest mistake in handling (lever a live round out) they cry about a reshoot. I too shoot duelist. I use a slow a$$ schofield and a buntline SAA in 45. My rifle is an unslicked 1873 musket with period correct anti-sweep device (bayonet). I too am at the bottom of the list. I don't shoot for speed I shoot for fun. That fun is diminished when half the posse is gaming it while the other half is trying to work the stage. Choosing to be a part of a team for a team event is OK. HAVING to do it to even participate is not. Pausing shooting to pick up brass is kinda lame. In the other shooting events I've done, IDPA, 3-Gun, Steel Challenge. You are solo. So... I'm still not understanding what about cowboy action shooting is a team event. I've observed it a couple times if anything was team oriented it wasn't obvious. |
| Yeah younger generations aren't into cowboy stuff nearly as much. My dad loves cowboy stuff since that's what he grew up with. I grew up with stuff like 80's action movies. So most my guns are more modern stuff like AR15's and Ak47's and UZI's and Mp5's and FAL's and G3's and 1911's and Beretta 92FS's. But I did buy some cowboy guns, mainly because my dad got me interested in it. Of course I don't really have much free time or money to go out there and shoot. If I was retired and rich I'd be all over it, ha |
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I had the guns and gear needed, and was interested in joining, so I went to a match with my son to check it out. I encountered the rudest A-holes you can imagine. We were treated like invading leppers by the Cowboy Comic-Con group of about a dozen people. They had no desire whatsoever to allow anyone in their little club. |
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Do you think the younger generation would be welcomed with open arms if they showed up? Quoted:
Quoted: I am guessing this. This younger generation would rather play it on a video game than go through the labor of love required to actually do it. @tinleg sorry I thought you had shot some other sports so I did not explain it well. Check out a local match. |
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If the "genuine article" guys want to be genuinely authentic, tell them they'd better be carrying hammer down on an empty chamber when they start their stage. Quoted:
Quoted: I think the newer model Vaquero corrected some of the deficiencies of the first model. I got rid of mine, but never bought a second model. |
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I have no interest in it because I don’t want to dress up like a cowboy. I’m Asian. I have my dignity. There were no Asian cowboys in the old West and I’m not going to pretend there ever was. But if they change it up to be revolver shooting and lever-action rifle shooting in a furry costume, then hellz yeah, I’m in! Actually, there were plenty of Asians in the old west. They were called "Indians" oh and that guy on Bonanza that mostly stayed in the kitchen |
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I laugh at all the guys bitching about the dressing up, yet I bet you if I do a search in the Armory subforum they have posts about their plate carrier, kpots, and multicam. |
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My sister-in-law's father is into it, he dresses up and everything. I went shooting with some family and he came along. He wanted nothing to do with suppressed guns because "only assassins need a suppressor", and he couldn't understand why anyone would own a machine gun. He spent the whole time fondling his octagonal barreled .357 lever action, maybe shot a total of 50rds. So why would that shooting sport be dying off? Maybe all the old fudds are giving it up. |
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Competition shooting in itself is pretty uncommon. Out of a thousand gun owners, I'll bet maybe two compete once a year. Then add in the fact that you can't just buy any old revolver off the shelf and go shoot it, you have to have something specific. And you have to have not one, but two revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun. The barrier to entry is very high. Why would you do cowboy action with several thousand dollars wrapped up in guns, holsters and costumes, when you can go shoot production with a glock 17 and fifty bucks worth of holsters and mag carriers and be competitive. |
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There were plenty of Asians in the Wild West. Plus, you could get away with calling everyone “Cocksucka!” Own that shit bro. Kind of like having Mexicans in the Civil War, didn't happen. |
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My totally wild ass guess is that as more and more boomers who were weaned on Roy Rodgers, The Lone Ranger, Gunsmoke, John Wayne etc either are growing too old and or passing away. As someone who grew up at the tail end of the tv western era it's something I've always wanted to get into, but much like my love for hunting I don't have the time to indulge like I would like to. (The downside of working for yourself is that when you're not working you're not getting paid and I have kids I'm putting through college and child support on one that's graduating this year.) |