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And people wonder what Paul was talking about when he warned against receiving Another Spirit in 2 Corinthians 12
The spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:32. The Holy Spirit does not make anyone lose control. These people talk about being "drunk in the spirit", but the Bible says strong drink is a mocker. Do they think the Holy Spirit is a mocker too? Blasphemy Funny how Paul beefed up both epistles to Corinth with verses against this kind of stuff, almost like God predicted the speaking in tongues thing getting taken way out of context to mean something retarded |
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Quoted: You're concluding it's made up jibber jabber...without citing to scripture which supports your conclusion. 1 Corinthians 14 talks about tongues in length. While Paul instructs that you aren't to do it in a service sans interpretations, he doesn't call it fake jibber jabber if no one is there to interpret. Instead, he actually treats it with a certain amount of deference and says "keep it between you and God". Paul had no problem calling a spade a spade. The fact that he doesn't condemn it, but merely instructs on when to do it publicly, is an important distinction. Copeland's utterances may well be jibber jabber. I don't have a high opinion of the man, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was. But if Paul was careful to show some deference to it, and speaks of it as a mysterious thing, I will as well. But feel free to cite to any scripture that gives you the measuring stick by which to measure whether it's legit versus jibber jabber. Again, Paul doesn't condemn it as fake, he just says (paraphrasing) leave it at home because it isn't helpful. Those are not the same thing. Pretending they are is, ironically, adding to scripture...which is just as verboten. View Quote |
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Quoted: 1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. Paul said he could speak with the tongues of men and angels. They were not distinguishable as some sort of weird language. When angels appeared unto men and spoke to them, humans understood the angels. Men did not have to have interpreters to understand the words the angels spoke. In fact, men entertain angels unaware, so the language of the angel must be understandable: Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. In the Bible, tongues are spoken languages. Gen 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. John5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Acts 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) Rev 16:16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. An unknown tongue is a spoken language the person does not know how to speak or the hearer does not know how to understand. In the Bible, speaking in tongues is not the gibberish that is called tongues in charismatic churches. Speaking in tongues - Biblically - is a gift, specifically a sign gift. Jews require a sign. Signs were proof to Jews that new revelation had come from God. The nation of Israel BEGAN with signs. When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush Moses asked God how the people would believe Moses was sent by God. Moses rod would turn into a serpent. When he picked it up again, it turned back into a rod. Moses would put his healthy hand under his garment, when he pulled it out it was leprous. When he repeated the process it came back out healthy. The prophets performed miracles. Again, it confirmed to Jews that what the prophets preached was revelation from God. Once the message was confirmed by signs and miracles, the signs and wonders ceased until the next new revelation. 1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: In every occasion where the gift of tongues is seen in the Bible, unbelieving Jews were present and the use of the gift revealed to the Jews the truth of what they had witnessed. Acts 2: unsaved Jews in Jerusalem from around the world miraculously heard the gospel preached in the language of the country they were from. The use of the sign gift - speaking in tongues - is a sign that what they heard - that Christ died for sinners, was buried and rose again - is true. Acts 10: saved Jews who did not believe that salvation was also offered to gentiles heard Cornelius and other gentiles speak in tongues after they heard the gospel and trusted Jesus as Saviour. Speaking in tongues was a sign to the Jews that salvation was not just for Jews, but for gentiles, too. Acts 19: Apollos and other Jews hear the gospel and believe and speak in tongues. Previously these Jews only knew the baptism of John. Speaking in tongues signified that the gospel Paul preached to them was true. View Quote |
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I heard a story once of an older lady who showed up to a Baptist church and wanted to speak a prophecy in tounges to bless the church. The pastor allowed it since he had the gift of interpretation.
Lady: dhsiskjfockekdhxbjkodjdhhhdydueitjznbd Pastor: praise God, she says there’s going to be a great outpouring of the spirit and many are going to get saved. Lady: yes pastor! Duapdkfjthejskspdjfbfhhwjqhhdhdbdhdhjebshhjkdoskdjfbfbd Pastor: she says that God wants us to build the biggest, nicest church in town so all these new Christians have a place to worship. Lady: yes pastor! Hdhsieotithxbbbajxkcufgeuskdpfpfnfhehzbdhdjf Pastor: and God says that she is going to pay for it. Lady: WTF |
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Quoted: And how (exactly) would you know if any given instance of the gift of tongues was "made up jibber-jabber"? Yes, there are a great many people who counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit--whether intentionally, or by being suggestible--but that doesn't mean that there aren't genuine spiritual phenomena that occur in the presence of the Holy Spirit. (You DO believe the Holy Spirit can and does make Himself known from time to time to beleivers, do you not?). I'll take it a step further and say that maybe the only thing worse than the fakers are the pompous spiritual dry holes who are a bit too confident in their own supposed sanctity, who assume that any and all manifestations of the Holy Spirit must surely be false--because, well, it's never happened to THEM. Not in THEIR church. Yeah--well maybe there is a reason it has never happened to you--and maybe the reason is your condescending assumption of your own moral superiority. Maybe. I've spoken in tongues exactly once. I was by myself, and I can assure you that I wasn't showing off for anybody, and the whole episode was sudden and quite unexpected and it left me with a profound sense of wonder. What I was saying was not "jibber-jabber", it was a single phrase repeated three times, and after a bit of research it seemed to be Swahili. I won't waste recounting the entire story on you naysayers, but I'd warn you that MAYBE you are a little too comfortable in your self-righteous condescension. You may not know God as well as you think you do. Just sayin. View Quote You admit that you don’t know what language it was, even if it was a language, or what was said makes it unBiblical. Understanding was the whole point of the gift of tongues in the Bible. Disorder and Babling is from the Devil or, most likely, a deluded mind |
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Quoted:
I heard a story once of an older lady who showed up to a Baptist church and wanted to speak a prophecy in tounges to bless the church. The pastor allowed it since he had the gift of interpretation. Lady: dhsiskjfockekdhxbjkodjdhhhdydueitjznbd Pastor: praise God, she says there’s going to be a great outpouring of the spirit and many are going to get saved. Lady: yes pastor! Duapdkfjthejskspdjfbfhhwjqhhdhdbdhdhjebshhjkdoskdjfbfbd View Quote |
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I’ve had the opportunity to observe Pentecostal and voodoo practitioners engage in the same phenomena.
The true believers listen to intense and emotional preaching, with rollicking rhythms in the preacher/voudon ‘s voice. Music and singing gets more intense. The preacher’s voice gets more rhythmic and demanding and suggesting. First one, then another, the true believers begin babbling and writhing, and the fever spreads until a mass of humanity descends into a babbling chaos. Pentecostals call it speaking in tongues. Voodoo practitioners call it riding the loa. They are both part of the same human psychological dynamics of suggestion and group influence |
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Quoted:
Because the Bible says that these were languages—not jibber jabber. Let’s guess. Your experience was in an intense church service, yes? So instead of the more logical “taken up by the fervor of the setting” your explanation is the Holy Spirit? You admit that you don’t know what language it was, even if it was a language, or what was said makes it unBiblical. Understanding was the whole point of the gift of tongues in the Bible. Disorder and Babling is from the Devil or, most likely, a deluded mind View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: And how (exactly) would you know if any given instance of the gift of tongues was "made up jibber-jabber"? Yes, there are a great many people who counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit--whether intentionally, or by being suggestible--but that doesn't mean that there aren't genuine spiritual phenomena that occur in the presence of the Holy Spirit. (You DO believe the Holy Spirit can and does make Himself known from time to time to beleivers, do you not?). I'll take it a step further and say that maybe the only thing worse than the fakers are the pompous spiritual dry holes who are a bit too confident in their own supposed sanctity, who assume that any and all manifestations of the Holy Spirit must surely be false--because, well, it's never happened to THEM. Not in THEIR church. Yeah--well maybe there is a reason it has never happened to you--and maybe the reason is your condescending assumption of your own moral superiority. Maybe. I've spoken in tongues exactly once. I was by myself, and I can assure you that I wasn't showing off for anybody, and the whole episode was sudden and quite unexpected and it left me with a profound sense of wonder. What I was saying was not "jibber-jabber", it was a single phrase repeated three times, and after a bit of research it seemed to be Swahili. I won't waste recounting the entire story on you naysayers, but I'd warn you that MAYBE you are a little too comfortable in your self-righteous condescension. You may not know God as well as you think you do. Just sayin. You admit that you don’t know what language it was, even if it was a language, or what was said makes it unBiblical. Understanding was the whole point of the gift of tongues in the Bible. Disorder and Babling is from the Devil or, most likely, a deluded mind ETA: Maybe you should go back a page and read Johhnyb01's firsthand account of his experience as well. Neither of our experiences conformed to your straw man. |
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Quoted:
I’ve had the opportunity to observe Pentecostal and voodoo practitioners engage in the same phenomena. The true believers listen to intense and emotional preaching, with rollicking rhythms in the preacher/voudon ‘s voice. Music and singing gets more intense. The preacher’s voice gets more rhythmic and demanding and suggesting. First one, then another, the true believers begin babbling and writhing, and the fever spreads until a mass of humanity descends into a babbling chaos. Pentecostals call it speaking in tongues. Voodoo practitioners call it riding the loa. They are both part of the same human psychological dynamics of suggestion and group influence View Quote That being said, I know that some of what is happening in some circumstances is actually genuine. You won't see it on TV, though. It is mostly confined to private revelation, and its purpose is to strengthen believers. What is true about your post is that those who deal in counterfeit gifts of the spirit all tend to use the techniques which you describe--and good on you for perceiving that they were fake--but how do you extrapolate out form that that ALL charismatic experience is false? Seems a tad smug. |
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The church I used to go to as a high schooler did that stuff. I thought it was creepy. Probably part of why I don't go to church anymore
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Back in the early 1980s I was living near Pensacola Fla. Just out of the Army, Smokin and Jokin, me and a Buddy are cruising along and pass a sign out in BFE for a Tent revival. Always heard about em so what the hell. Damn! Big circus tent out in a field, Place was packed!! The was a Feller preachin the fire and brimstone, there was a band set up, and there were people running up and down the isles, hands in the air, Other people rolling on the ground speaking in tongues, It was a hell of a show! Didn't get saved that day but tossed a $20 in the collection for the entertainment!
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Quoted: How did you get through Med school without reading? ETA: Maybe you should go back a page and read Johhnyb01's firsthand account of his experience as well. Neither of our experiences conformed to your straw man. View Quote |
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Quoted: I agree that there is a great deal of placebo effect at work in Charismatic circles, and I am distrustful of services where rhythmic sounds and music are used for exactly the reasons which you described. I also distrust those who chase after "signs and wonders", though I do sometimes envy them their innate optimism, or perhaps their being unburdened by the weight of needing credulity. That being said, I know that some of what is happening in some circumstances is actually genuine. You won't see it on TV, though. It is mostly confined to private revelation, and its purpose is to strengthen believers. What is true about your post is that those who deal in counterfeit gifts of the spirit all tend to use the techniques which you describe--and good on you for perceiving that they were fake--but how do you extrapolate out form that that ALL charismatic experience is false? Seems a tad smug. View Quote Like in the Bible, show me some guy from Appalachia spouting off in Ancient Greek or Russian or Cantonese, I’ll have to agree. However, all we see is nonsensical babbling. That is the failure of the bogus “speaking in tongues.” It’s no more legitimate than voodoo practitioners “speaking in tongues.” |
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Quoted:
Misinterpretation of scripture designed to impress the rubes. The gift of tongues to the disciples was that of understanding and speaking the languages of the earth so they could spread the gospelnot gibberish. And no, it's not the "language of the angels." It's random babbling done by snake oil salesmen View Quote No, it is not. I am not a Christian (nor am I am atheist). I would like to think I am agnostic. My wife is a christian, who sometimes speak in tongues. I've recorded her and sent it off to be translated. So far: Some eastern European tongue, Portuguese, an African tongue and some other shit they think was Aramaic. When you have 2 days off and willing to fly to NY, I will fly you here on my dime, and put you in a Hilton Garden Inn or Hampton Inn so you can experience (and record) first hand. |
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@NavyDoc1 No, it is not. I am not a Christian (nor am I am atheist). I would like to think I am agnostic. My wife is a christian, who sometimes speak in tongues. I've recorded her and sent it off to be translated. So far: Some eastern European tongue, Portuguese, an African tongue and some other shit they think was Aramaic. When you have 2 days off and willing to fly to NY, I will fly you here on my dime, and put you in a Hilton Garden Inn or Hampton Inn so you can experience (and record) first hand. View Quote What sort of linguist replies with such vauge answers? It shouldn’t be “some Eastern European tongue,” the answer from a legitimate linguist would be some along the lines of “Bulgarian and he’s talking about a cat.” Who did you send this to in the first place? ETA: and speaking in a foreign language is not the “speaking in tongues” we are discussing—it’s the random babbling Nobody has to fly anywhere just post a video of this miracle. |
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Quoted:
And how do you know they were “genuine” and not an offshoot of the same dynamic? People ingrained into a certain behavior in public will certainly engage it in less public situations. They had an audience, yes? Just not as large as in church. Like in the Bible, show me some guy from Appalachia spouting off in Ancient Greek or Russian or Cantonese, I’ll have to agree. However, all we see is nonsensical babbling. That is the failure of the bogus “speaking in tongues.” It’s no more legitimate than voodoo practitioners “speaking in tongues.” View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I agree that there is a great deal of placebo effect at work in Charismatic circles, and I am distrustful of services where rhythmic sounds and music are used for exactly the reasons which you described. I also distrust those who chase after "signs and wonders", though I do sometimes envy them their innate optimism, or perhaps their being unburdened by the weight of needing credulity. That being said, I know that some of what is happening in some circumstances is actually genuine. You won't see it on TV, though. It is mostly confined to private revelation, and its purpose is to strengthen believers. What is true about your post is that those who deal in counterfeit gifts of the spirit all tend to use the techniques which you describe--and good on you for perceiving that they were fake--but how do you extrapolate out form that that ALL charismatic experience is false? Seems a tad smug. Like in the Bible, show me some guy from Appalachia spouting off in Ancient Greek or Russian or Cantonese, I’ll have to agree. However, all we see is nonsensical babbling. That is the failure of the bogus “speaking in tongues.” It’s no more legitimate than voodoo practitioners “speaking in tongues.” It's amazing that you know of every single instance in which someone has either spoken (or pretended to speak) in tongues. SNIP/NM: I began typing out incidences in which someone who was speaking in tongues (or "babbling nonsensically") was approached by a stranger who inquired where in Poland they were from/how they learned a curious local dialect, etc. from another person who overheard them speaking in tongues and assumed they were fluent in the language in which they were speaking--but I understand that it wont particularly convince you, and besides the accounts are second-hand. Skepticism is a healthy attribute, no doubt about it, but don't try to pretend that you actually know more than you do. You're inclined toward total disbelief--OK. Enjoy. |
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Misinterpretation of scripture designed to impress the rubes. The gift of tongues to the disciples was that of understanding and speaking the languages of the earth so they could spread the gospel—not gibberish. And no, it’s not the “language of the angels.” It’s random babbling done by snake oil salesmen View Quote |
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Quoted: "All we see is nonsensical babbling"? It's amazing that you know of every single instance in which someone has either spoken (or pretended to speak) in tongues. SNIP/NM: I began typing out incidences in which someone who was speaking in tongues (or "babbling nonsensically") was approached by a stranger who inquired where in Poland they were from/how they learned a curious local dialect, etc. from another person who overheard them speaking in tongues and assumed they were fluent in the language in which they were speaking--but I understand that it wont particularly convince you, and besides the accounts are second-hand. Skepticism is a healthy attribute, no doubt about it, but don't try to pretend that you actually know more than you do. You're inclined toward total disbelief--OK. Enjoy. View Quote SHOW ME someone actually speaking in a language that they do not or should not know but it is real and understandable by those who speak said language and we can start a rational discussion Nowhere in Pentecostal speaking in tongues do we have an example of people speaking in a real language—Polish (Bozh Moi) or others. It’s jibberish and it only fools the uneducated and inexperienced who cannot tell a foreign language from babbling. Been around the world a few times and you can tell the difference However, we have no evidence of that. Even you could not provide that. The best you could even attempt was a second hand anecdote. The burden of proof is in the claimant, not the skeptic. Show me the evidence is not an irrational stance. |
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Quoted:
... I was brought up in several churches where speaking in tongues was present. I use that term loosely because there wasn't an interpretation all the time. And you started to hear the same people saying the same phonetic phrases over and over again. So I am very cynical about the legitimacy of most expressions of it. But I do believe that a legitimate form of it exists. But I also can't deny that there is a "sign" element of it where non-believers ask "what's that all about" and that leads to a gospel conversation. ... View Quote The repetitive phrases are fact, and most people don't change over years or decades. On the one hand I can't recall a one that I don't believe is a sanctified believer, and they are modest people. I don't understand the internal motivation that drives what comes out of their mouths. On the other, I don't need to understand. On another topic above, the church my wife's folks belonged to had a preacher that clearly entered a trance state after a warm up. No ramp down when he finished. He was a country preacher that no doubt was called when he was young, not a full time preacher. His was the most remarkable instance I ever witnessed. |
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Quoted: You're concluding it's made up jibber jabber...without citing to scripture which supports your conclusion. 1 Corinthians 14 talks about tongues in length. While Paul instructs that you aren't to do it in a service sans interpretations, he doesn't call it fake jibber jabber if no one is there to interpret. Instead, he actually treats it with a certain amount of deference and says "keep it between you and God". Paul had no problem calling a spade a spade. The fact that he doesn't condemn it, but merely instructs on when to do it publicly, is an important distinction. Copeland's utterances may well be jibber jabber. I don't have a high opinion of the man, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was. But if Paul was careful to show some deference to it, and speaks of it as a mysterious thing, I will as well. But feel free to cite to any scripture that gives you the measuring stick by which to measure whether it's legit versus jibber jabber. Again, Paul doesn't condemn it as fake, he just says (paraphrasing) leave it at home because it isn't helpful. Those are not the same thing. Pretending they are is, ironically, adding to scripture...which is just as verboten. View Quote |
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Quoted:
Was in an Ash Wednesday service in an Episcopal Church. During a quiet time in the service one of the members I knew spoke in tongues. It was quiet for a while and a woman who looked middle eastern stood up and said that the words spoken were in Persian and were speaking about the greatness of God. I have seen and experienced it several times. It is a sign. Believe it or not. Are some phony? I am sure there are. YMMV. The gifts are real. View Quote Assuming you actually witnessed this, how do you know the “middle eastern looking” woman spoke Persian and wasn’t just feeding everyone a line of bullshit? Did you meet her afterwards and she talked about growing up in Tehran while teaching you some Persian phrases? How do you know this “person you know” didn’t know some Persian or looked some up in YouTube? It’s pretty random and unusual that an Elpiscopalian is talking in tongues in the first place and a bit coincidental that a Persian just happened to be in a church at the time, yes? Episcopalians are not that big in Iran, don’t ya know |
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Quoted:
Secondhand anecdotes are worthless SHOW ME someone actually speaking in a language that they do not or should not know but it is real and understandable by those who speak said language and we can start a rational discussion Nowhere in Pentecostal speaking in tongues do we have an example of people speaking in a real language—Polish (Bozh Moi) or others. It’s jibberish and it only fools the uneducated and inexperienced who cannot tell a foreign language from babbling. Been around the world a few times and you can tell the difference However, we have no evidence of that. Even you could not provide that. The best you could even attempt was a second hand anecdote. The burden of proof is in the claimant, not the skeptic. Show me the evidence is not an irrational stance. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: "All we see is nonsensical babbling"? It's amazing that you know of every single instance in which someone has either spoken (or pretended to speak) in tongues. SNIP/NM: I began typing out incidences in which someone who was speaking in tongues (or "babbling nonsensically") was approached by a stranger who inquired where in Poland they were from/how they learned a curious local dialect, etc. from another person who overheard them speaking in tongues and assumed they were fluent in the language in which they were speaking--but I understand that it wont particularly convince you, and besides the accounts are second-hand. Skepticism is a healthy attribute, no doubt about it, but don't try to pretend that you actually know more than you do. You're inclined toward total disbelief--OK. Enjoy. SHOW ME someone actually speaking in a language that they do not or should not know but it is real and understandable by those who speak said language and we can start a rational discussion Nowhere in Pentecostal speaking in tongues do we have an example of people speaking in a real language—Polish (Bozh Moi) or others. It’s jibberish and it only fools the uneducated and inexperienced who cannot tell a foreign language from babbling. Been around the world a few times and you can tell the difference However, we have no evidence of that. Even you could not provide that. The best you could even attempt was a second hand anecdote. The burden of proof is in the claimant, not the skeptic. Show me the evidence is not an irrational stance. Presumably you can understand the fallacy in play when atheists use the argument--and of course the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Holy Trinity, and all the same rules apply. Right? Here is what I would say to you: If you want to know the truth about the phenomenon of praying in tongues, fast, read scripture, and pray to the Holy Spirit with a clean and earnest heart, pray to the Holy Spirit to come and to show you the truth, and also to protect you from untruth. If you don't actually believe that this could even happen in the first place, you've just identified the problem--and it's you. |
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Quoted: Interesting. Without quite understanding it, you are using atheist logician tactics--i.e. if God exists, why doesn't he "prove" His existence. If the Holy Spirit actually can and does manifest Himself in the lives of Christians, where is the proof? I demand proof! Presumably you can understand the fallacy in play when atheists use the argument--and of course the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Holy Trinity, and all the same rules apply. Right? Here is what I would say to you: If you want to know the truth about the phenomenon of praying in tongues, fast, read scripture, and pray to the Holy Spirit with a clean and earnest heart, pray to the Holy Spirit to come and to show you the truth, and also to protect you from untruth. If you don't actually believe that this could even happen in the first place, you've just identified the problem--and it's you. View Quote You are making a straw man No where did I ask for proof of god. I asked a MAN for HIS proof of an actual phenomenon that he claims exists. That you extrapolate that demand to asking for proof of god is very telling. You sir are not God. You are not the mouthpiece of God. Compairing asking you to prove your statements with the questioning of the existence of God is the height of hubris on your part and very much demonstrates that you and your self righteous and fanatical beliefs are the problem. YOU ARE NOT GOD and questioning you is perfectly reasonable. Prove your position. Your whole point is entirely illogical. It’s exactly the point is when a huckster comes into town and demands believers to buy him a jet and have their daughters blow him. “Prove to us that god told you that!” “How dare you question the lord thy god!” They were not questioning God, they were questioning him—the huckster and false prophet. |
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I would put money on it that most of those in the audience voted for Trump... the whole world is upside down...
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Quoted:
Interesting that you without knowing it are using the snake oil salesman tactic of the asking for proof being false in and of itself and twist that to avoid what is actually being asked about. You are making a straw man No where did I ask for proof of god. I asked a MAN for HIS proof of an actual phenomenon that he claims exists. That you extrapolate that demand to asking for proof of god is very telling. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Interesting. Without quite understanding it, you are using atheist logician tactics--i.e. if God exists, why doesn't he "prove" His existence. If the Holy Spirit actually can and does manifest Himself in the lives of Christians, where is the proof? I demand proof! Presumably you can understand the fallacy in play when atheists use the argument--and of course the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Holy Trinity, and all the same rules apply. Right? Here is what I would say to you: If you want to know the truth about the phenomenon of praying in tongues, fast, read scripture, and pray to the Holy Spirit with a clean and earnest heart, pray to the Holy Spirit to come and to show you the truth, and also to protect you from untruth. If you don't actually believe that this could even happen in the first place, you've just identified the problem--and it's you. You are making a straw man No where did I ask for proof of god. I asked a MAN for HIS proof of an actual phenomenon that he claims exists. That you extrapolate that demand to asking for proof of god is very telling. Maybe you want to re-read my post. I actually advised you to bypass the testimony of men and referred you to petition directly to the Holy Spirit. Lastly--you keep saying that second-hand testimony is worthless and yet you have several people with first-hand knowledge of the topic at hand and yet you haven't asked them a single honest question about their experiences. Instead you pontificate on what was really happening in these experiences based (pretty much) on your own preconceived notions. I'd say it doesn't get any more intellectually dishonest than that. I'll repeat my earlier advice. If you want to know the truth, fast, read scripture, and petition the Holy Spirit with a clean and earnest heart to come and show you what is true, and to protect you from what is untrue. Have a nice night. |
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Quoted: Believers generally capitalize the G in God. Maybe you want to re-read my post. I actually advised you to bypass the testimony of men and referred you to petition directly to the Holy Spirit. Lastly--you keep saying that second-hand testimony is worthless and yet you have several people with first-hand knowledge of the topic at hand and yet you haven't asked them a single honest question about their experiences. Instead you pontificate on what was really happening in these experiences based (pretty much) on your own preconceived notions. I'd say it doesn't get any more intellectually dishonest than that. I'll repeat my earlier advice. If you want to know the truth, fast, read scripture, and petition the Holy Spirit with a clean and earnest heart to come and show you what is true, and to protect you from what is untrue. Have a nice night. View Quote Bullshit and a dodge. I do know how to find what is true. Scripture, study, and a sharp eye out for con-men and false prophets who cannot even back up their claims will serve good Christians well and will keep them with Christ and away from the nonsense as well as helping them keep a hold on to their bank accounts. I have asked people honest questions and reasonable ones, concerning the how, why, and who—you know, logical questions. So far nobody has come up with any definitive answer—most likely because they haven’t got one. |
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NavyDoc mentioned something I should have mentioned in my previous post. If you've ever been to a real "revival" or a holy hell fire preacher that can really whip up the crowd, part of what they do is the same thing cult leaders do, good ones get their rhythm and timing down and when combined with the fervor in the room, it's a type of hypnosis.
Some people are more susceptible then others, so I would say there are 2 types of people that speak in tongues in my experience. 1. People that are just getting some attention and showing they have the most spirit. Same idea as the old lady that holds her bible up for the entire service and just repeats thank you Jesus for an hour straight. 2. People that get so whipped up and want to believe so bad, that they do blurt out gibberish maybe even outside of their control. That doesn't mean a sky god is feeding them the gibberish. As far as people speaking actual other languages, it is possible that people learned phrases or words of another language in order to be prepared for next Sunday. Honestly let the claim of speaking in tongues fall on Occam's Razor, to me it never falls on the side of God did it. ETA: Full disclosure, without some verifiable proof, nothing is going to fall on the side of God did it. |
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Lots of warning of false teachers and prophet's in the Bible. As I understand it though, it's frowned upon to do publicly.
That said, speaking in tongues is a real thing. |
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Quoted:
@NavyDoc1 No, it is not. I am not a Christian (nor am I am atheist). I would like to think I am agnostic. My wife is a christian, who sometimes speak in tongues. I've recorded her and sent it off to be translated. So far: Some eastern European tongue, Portuguese, an African tongue and some other shit they think was Aramaic. When you have 2 days off and willing to fly to NY, I will fly you here on my dime, and put you in a Hilton Garden Inn or Hampton Inn so you can experience (and record) first hand. View Quote ![]() |
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