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Posted: 10/6/2019 2:38:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The average wage in 1903 was 37 cents per hour. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those were real men back then, operating 2 pieces of equipment at the same time AND working a 16 hour shift...with only 1 lunch break, $3 and hour.  |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:15:14 PM EDT
[#2]
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$3 an hour??? Not likely! More like $3 per day. Even in 1938 when minimum wage became law it was only $0.35 an hour. That photo is likely pre-1938, so there was no minimum wage. |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:20:24 PM EDT
[#3]
I believe the boss was posing for the picture.
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:29:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Grandpa told me he wore clip on ties at the factory
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:41:48 PM EDT
[#5]
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I'd say that pic was staged.....Ties were worn by supervisors, it was a badge of "rank" on the shop floor. This is more like it.....Coveralls and bibs seemed to be the the main attire. https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b264LL-izgA/UevKuODDegI/AAAAAAAAlYE/7yw9OjgcpeE/s1600/5.jpg |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:42:32 PM EDT
[#6]
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Setting up a camera to expose a plate indoors in 1903 was a bit of an effort. The pic was most likely taken in the 1920s. |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:45:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Just a note for all of you that say this is a staged photo, you are wrong.
Around 1900, it was very common for those workers performing "light labor" to wear a suit and a tie. Almost all men also wore hats coming to and leaving work. The dangers of wearing ties around rotating equipment became known (I wonder how that became known  ) and workers were told not to wear ties around rotating equipment.
When I was promoted from hourly to supervisor around 1980 in the country's largest oil refinery, I was required to start wearing a tie to work. I was not working on rotating equipment. Some time later, the dress code was relaxed and we quit wearing ties. Look at photos of workers around 1900 and you will see lots of ties and suits. |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 3:56:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going on a limb here and say this photo was staged. She's working in the ammo factory wearing her Sunday best, make-up and red lipstick. https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif 
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Posted: 10/6/2019 4:46:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Woodward-Governor machinist's were required to wear a white dress shirt and bow tie at work until at least the 70-80's where I grew up. The company also had a barber shop in the plant. If someone's hair was even a little too long they would get pulled off the shop floor and get a hair cut before returning to work.
The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 4:51:40 PM EDT
[#10]
My Grandmother is in this photo.
Taken 25 at a shoe factory in Brunswick Maine. Not a gun factory obviously but it shows what women wore back then. 
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Posted: 10/6/2019 5:16:14 PM EDT
[#11]
In this thread people romanticize an era that they were no part in.
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Posted: 10/6/2019 5:17:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this thread people romanticize an era that they were no part in. |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 5:18:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was a time when all of society had more pride in their appearance and in their work. |
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Posted: 10/6/2019 5:45:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Woodward-Governor machinist's were required to wear a white dress shirt and bow tie at work until at least the 70-80's where I grew up. The company also had a barber shop in the plant. If someone's hair was even a little too long they would get pulled off the shop floor and get a hair cut before returning to work. The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. The age of hyper accuracy is now. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 6:29:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Woodward-Governor machinist's were required to wear a white dress shirt and bow tie at work until at least the 70-80's where I grew up. The company also had a barber shop in the plant. If someone's hair was even a little too long they would get pulled off the shop floor and get a hair cut before returning to work. The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. CNC machinery is a fucking godsend. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 7:22:30 AM EDT
[#16]
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I worked as a machinist in the early 70s. Supervisor dressed exactly like this. He worked the lathes in a shirt and tie...he looked impeccable every day. Cutting a blue chip was not allowed and the machines were cleaned and waxed on Friday afternoons. I'm glad that stupid shit was gone before I got there. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 8:27:51 AM EDT
[#17]
beat
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Posted: 10/7/2019 8:47:14 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hate to tell you but the old guns weren't that accurate. 4moa was considered good. Right now, we have sub MOA capable guns being sold for under $400 and with less than $1000 you can have a rifle that makes shooting 1000 meters possible when back 30 to 40 years ago that would have been a $5k build easily. CNC machinery is a fucking godsend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Woodward-Governor machinist's were required to wear a white dress shirt and bow tie at work until at least the 70-80's where I grew up. The company also had a barber shop in the plant. If someone's hair was even a little too long they would get pulled off the shop floor and get a hair cut before returning to work. The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. CNC machinery is a fucking godsend. Regardless, it is amazing what those guys did without computers. Just hand math and their hands. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 8:47:37 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The company where I served my machinist apprenticeship was started in the 60's and ties had to be worn by the machinist. Cutting a blue chip was not allowed and the machines were cleaned and waxed on Friday afternoons. I'm glad that stupid shit was gone before I got there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I worked as a machinist in the early 70s. Supervisor dressed exactly like this. He worked the lathes in a shirt and tie...he looked impeccable every day. Cutting a blue chip was not allowed and the machines were cleaned and waxed on Friday afternoons. I'm glad that stupid shit was gone before I got there. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 8:52:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those were real men back then, operating 2 pieces of equipment at the same time AND working a 16 hour shift...with only 1 lunch break, $3 and hour. Skilled labor isn't something you really cheap out on. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 8:55:17 AM EDT
[#21]
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I always point out to my son how people dressed decades ago compared to now when we watch an old movie or see pictures. Went from janitors wearing suits and ties to now most kids wearing what looks like they slept in. Swinging sledge hammers wearing a vest and tie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_LA_R4ifYk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIbObCltfQ |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:05:00 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always point out to my son how people dressed decades ago compared to now when we watch an old movie or see pictures. Went from janitors wearing suits and ties to now most kids wearing what looks like they slept in. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:08:23 AM EDT
[#23]
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Behind an apron or not, no way I'd wear a tie around lathes. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:10:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was a time when all of society had more pride in their appearance and in their work. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:11:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to be around for a while to help provide for my family. But, that's just me. 
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:13:02 AM EDT
[#26]
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Compare that affluent middle class American worker to these poor Soviet women who can't afford nice clothes: https://i.redd.it/7p05e0zhbitx.jpg They can work in the nude to save their clothes from getting dirty. 
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:13:45 AM EDT
[#27]
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Can you imagine sweating all day in a stuffy suit, compared to the modern moisture-wicking wonder fabrics we have today? 
I do understand heavy cotton for FR protection, but I can't imagine wearing a suit in a physically demanding work environment. As much as I admire certain traditions, there are some that I am glad have gone the way of the dodo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lunch bucket working stiffs dressed better back then. Somewhere around I have a picture of carpenters building a house wearing fedoras and ties.
I do understand heavy cotton for FR protection, but I can't imagine wearing a suit in a physically demanding work environment. As much as I admire certain traditions, there are some that I am glad have gone the way of the dodo. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:19:27 AM EDT
[#28]
If you look at the few old work photos of my grandfather from the 20-40s you'd think he worked in a coal mine wearing a 3 piece suit every day. He did not. Having your photo taken in that time frame was such a rarity and big deal they would dress up for the photos no matter the location or job.
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:20:59 AM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:29:05 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was a kid, flying was still a thing. You dressed nice and got good service. Today flying is like taking the bus. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All dress standards have declined. In 1967 when my brother and took our first flight to Florida, we dressed in tan slacks and plaid shirts neatly pressed by our mom. All the other passengers were in dresses for women and coats and ties for the men.Flying was still an occasion for many people. Today flying is more like being on a cattle car, and with a similar standard for hygiene. People have far less pride in appearance no matter where they may be. Air travel is ridiculously cheap these considering the product you are actually getting. I'm looking on Kayak right now and can fly across the country to Los Angeles for $161. I've searched some other routes I used to take some 25 years ago and the prices are basically the same as they were back then even though general inflation would put prices 75% higher to day than back in 1993. Anyone can and does fly these days. It's not limited to the upper middle class anymore. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:37:17 AM EDT
[#31]
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I'm not even going to put underwear on for less than $25/hr |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:46:16 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only fags and commies wear ties and long sleeves while working a lathe or mill. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/48680/John-C_-Garand-At-Work-486x600_jpg-1115714.JPG |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 10:07:33 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Woodward-Governor machinist's were required to wear a white dress shirt and bow tie at work until at least the 70-80's where I grew up. The company also had a barber shop in the plant. If someone's hair was even a little too long they would get pulled off the shop floor and get a hair cut before returning to work. The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. I'm aware all too well of button pushers, but many companies bring it on themselves. It's all about machine up-time and cycle times, with accuracy taking a back seat. I worked in one shop that made parts for the aerospace industry, of all things. The process was completely ass backwards. Get say, a six piece order, and they'd have you run all six pieces, THEN submit them to inspection. Many of the guys would forego doing any checks at the machine and end up just turn in six pieces of scrap, with management just rushing to "save" the parts as best they could and never dealing with the actual problem on the part of the operators. These guys had a lot of up-time though since the machine was never down due to them checking the parts they're making, so management was happy with them. There's also just no way to check some things at the machine. That's why there should be first piece submissions and the rest of the parts not being run until it's signed off on and/or corrections are made from the inspection report. But that would mean machine down time when the first piece is in inspection awaiting for approval. Then add in the fact that you would get a work order 2 days after you finished the last run for another 6 pieces of that same piece and have to do the set-up again when the orders were clearly all in house well before the first run, and the problem just gets compounded. It also didn't help that the supervisor for the CNC/Machining department had zero machining experience - he was a turret press operator that got promoted to management because he was a long-time employee, but they threw him in a an department he had no business being in. 
Back in the "day" with manual machines and no DROs, operators had to continually check the parts to operate the machine. Otherwise the parts are would have been made based completely on guesses and looks. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 10:17:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And most couldn't work the hours in a non environmentally controlled area with cutting oil and the fumes and smoke either  On the other hand, pretty cool. Even wearing a vest under that work apron. Somehow I doubt that this wasn't staged and that's not a manager. But still neat bit of history. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:09:50 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is "cutting a blue chip"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I worked as a machinist in the early 70s. Supervisor dressed exactly like this. He worked the lathes in a shirt and tie...he looked impeccable every day. Cutting a blue chip was not allowed and the machines were cleaned and waxed on Friday afternoons. I'm glad that stupid shit was gone before I got there. What the company was saying is time doesn't matter don't take heavy cuts. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:17:30 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are all wearing vests and collared shirts, a couple have ties on. Dress decently and then put coveralls and overalls on over that...hence the names "coveralls" and "overalls". |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:28:00 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wonder what the noise levels were like in that workspace Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They are all wearing vests and collared shirts, a couple have ties on. Dress decently and then put coveralls and overalls on over that...hence the names "coveralls" and "overalls". Ah the good old days. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:31:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Woodward governor use to wear white shortsleeves with bow ties up until just a few years ago
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:36:50 AM EDT
[#39]
And nothing in the pic labeled Fanuc or Siemens.
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:37:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hate to tell you but the old guns weren't that accurate. 4moa was considered good. Right now, we have sub MOA capable guns being sold for under $400 and with less than $1000 you can have a rifle that makes shooting 1000 meters possible when back 30 to 40 years ago that would have been a $5k build easily. CNC machinery is a fucking godsend. Just look at any knife sharpening thread here. Pretend you're going to start a knife sharpening business and you need to hire 20 guys in that thread. Every single one has a different opinion on how to do it based on a combination of personal experience and what their pappy did and what they "like." Some, but few base any of that on anything quantifiable, instead only anecdotal accounts with no standard of measure for performance. That's a 1920 machine shop. Some of them are wizards. Some of them are incompetent. They can't even communicate with each other efficiently because they have no basis to relate. Now hire 20 guys who are going to follow a verifiable procedure, checking against a standard performance test, utilizing a fixture that minimizes personal skill and maximizes repeatability. That's a 1990s+ machine shop. You still have wizards and incompetents. But the margin between the product they turn out is vastly minimized. All a CNC does is act as a buffer for the wizard to communicate his knowledge to the less-than-wizardly with an increase in the level of accuracy and consistency not seen since the advent of written language. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:45:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryAlso what my Grandma did during the war. She could tell you what the various tip colors meant on .50 projectiles. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 11:49:51 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CNC makes it cheap. Quality systems make it good. Just look at any knife sharpening thread here. Pretend you're going to start a knife sharpening business and you need to hire 20 guys in that thread. Every single one has a different opinion on how to do it based on a combination of personal experience and what their pappy did and what they "like." Some, but few base any of that on anything quantifiable, instead only anecdotal accounts with no standard of measure for performance. That's a 1920 machine shop. Some of them are wizards. Some of them are incompetent. They can't even communicate with each other efficiently because they have no basis to relate. Now hire 20 guys who are going to follow a verifiable procedure, checking against a standard performance test, utilizing a fixture that minimizes personal skill and maximizes repeatability. That's a 1990s+ machine shop. You still have wizards and incompetents. But the margin between the product they turn out is vastly minimized. All a CNC does is act as a buffer for the wizard to communicate his knowledge to the less-than-wizardly with a level of accuracy and consistency not seen since the advent of written language. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:02:48 PM EDT
[#43]
A different time.
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:05:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going on a limb here and say this photo was staged. She's working in the ammo factory wearing her Sunday best, make-up and red lipstick. https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:13:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You wouldn't notice after you passed out wearing a three piece suit under coveralls in a poorly ventilated, non air conditioned factory huffing fumes from burning metal and machine oil all day. Ah the good old days. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They are all wearing vests and collared shirts, a couple have ties on. Dress decently and then put coveralls and overalls on over that...hence the names "coveralls" and "overalls". Ah the good old days. 
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:32:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hate to tell you but the old guns weren't that accurate. 4moa was considered good. Right now, we have sub MOA capable guns being sold for under $400 and with less than $1000 you can have a rifle that makes shooting 1000 meters possible when back 30 to 40 years ago that would have been a $5k build easily. CNC machinery is a fucking godsend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. CNC machinery is a fucking godsend. Anyone who thinks the older guns were built "better" needs to understand the process used back then, at least the one used by the US government. For example, M1 Garands had EACH PIECE gauged for critical dimensions prior to being passed on to the next step in the manufacturing process. Now 100% inspection of parts in process sounds pretty "precision" until you realize they did that because each process step had SO MUCH potential variation in it. In essence, they were not sure that each part would be exactly like the previous one, or the next one, so they checked each piece. And checking is NOT 100% reliable, as the Japanese manufacturing industry taught us (actually Deming did, but I digress.) Quality/precision of older guns was achieve by brute force. Today, with CNC, it is built in by design and manufacture. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:37:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Woodward-Governor machinist's were required to wear a white dress shirt and bow tie at work until at least the 70-80's where I grew up. The company also had a barber shop in the plant. If someone's hair was even a little too long they would get pulled off the shop floor and get a hair cut before returning to work. The picture in the OP shows why those old guns were so accurate. Having an actual machinist who took pride in his work making the parts by hand versus someone loading parts into a CNC machine and hitting the start button today. 
Guns coming off of CNC machines today are exponentially more accurate than guns made on manual machinery in mass production no matter how much the toolmaker cared. edit: I see this was covered already.
Also interesting, that apron is EXACTLY the same as the apron I wore up until we quit the apron service. I really miss wearing one. So convenient and handy. O-1 mics in the big top pocket. Scale, pencil, 3/16 allen wrench in the small top pocket. Rag, and expediently used knick knacks in the waste pocket. 
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:42:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Taking a large cut in steel on a lathe or a mill will result in the chip turning blue. What the company was saying is time doesn't matter don't take heavy cuts. There's a balance of time for the cut vs cost of tooling. And, yeah, some people get anal and stupid about having a notion that just because something takes longer, that makes it better.
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:43:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
posed photo |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 12:45:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Tie and suit vest under the shop apron.
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