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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:51:28 AM EDT
[#1]
I have a stash of factory m855 for just in csse
But I primarily reload and shoot 55, 75 and 77 gr. M855 was never accurate in my rifles. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:53:11 AM EDT
[#2]
just reload your own then you can shoot 77gr all day
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:55:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The best price in not always the lowest price. Purchasing 101. Right, you gotta factor in who's going to give you the biggest kickback. Big guy taught me that 10% of a hugely inflated price can be a better score than 15% of a bargain.  |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:56:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Never used 55 but got ok results with 62.
Now using PPU 69gr match - what I used to use in UK. Decent stuff. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:59:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never used 55 but got ok results with 62. Now using PPU 69gr match - what I used to use in UK. Decent stuff. What kind of accuracy do you get with the PPU? |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:02:15 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What kind of accuracy do you get with the PPU? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Never used 55 but got ok results with 62. Now using PPU 69gr match - what I used to use in UK. Decent stuff. What kind of accuracy do you get with the PPU? Two moa on a good day ( 3 on a bad day ) using Colt 16" barrel and Acog |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:14:23 AM EDT
[#7]
It’s been my anecdotal experience that M855 is less prone to experience jacket separation when it’s being shot through light barriers like glass or plywood. M193 will usually shed its jacket on the way through similar obstacles, meaning less bullet is going through to hit whatever is behind the obstacle. That may or may not be a desirable characteristic depending on the application.
M855 is not a very accurate round. Neither is M193 to a lesser extent. If you want very accurate 5.56 then you should be using 77gr. OTM like Mk. 262. I usually use some flavor of 60-77gr .223 Rem when I’m trying to shoot groups at distance. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:16:50 AM EDT
[#8]
This is Arfcom, so the proper answer is:
GET BOTH! (and 77gr. OTM too, even better) [/thread] and chili has beans! |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:20:58 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Is the green tip worth the extra cost? I’ve never gotten gray accuracy out of any that I’ve shot and I’ve read that it shortens barrel life by quite a bit. Huh…I usually get a more purple accuracy with it out of most of my rifles. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:23:36 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two moa on a good day ( 3 on a bad day ) using Colt 16" barrel and Acog Thank you. I was eyeing some PPU 120grn 6.5 Grendel BTHP ammo. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:46:21 AM EDT
[#11]
I always found the accuracy was crap with the green tip.
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:47:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Green tip FTW
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:57:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Other than shooting at someone with polyethylene plates or punching steel helmets at 550m, I'm not sure what it does better than M193. It’s too expensive to train with M855A1 so the green tip is used because the poa/poi is comparable. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:00:37 AM EDT
[#14]
I’m not engaging a 1980’s equipped Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment, so no..
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:00:45 AM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:03:03 AM EDT
[#16]
Depends are you using a 16" or 20" barrel?
is it a carbine length or rifle lengths gas system maybe mid length? chrome lined bore or chrome moly? 1:7 twist or 1:9 twist? benched, supported, or off a bipod? right hand or left? 9mm or .45acp Beans or no beans? pleasure journal or dick diary? |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:06:22 AM EDT
[#17]
It's amazing how unbelievably certain some people are about things they know almost nothing about.
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:08:40 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously? The price difference between online and local is huge. I want downward price pressure, not supporting local Fudd mark up. This kind of mentality is why in a couple of years, all the domestic middle market ammo manufacturers will be out of business and all you'll have to choose from is Winchester white box and dogshit ammo from Turkey or some other place. Enjoy. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:18:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's amazing how unbelievably certain some people are about things they know almost nothing about. I’m not going to lie I have no idea what I’m talking about that’s why I asked I love to learn |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:23:07 AM EDT
[#20]
I used to see them for the same price. I prefer the 55 grain. But I don't live in a high-intensity tactical environment.
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:35:29 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. The lacquer on the cases melts in the chamber and causes the cases to stick and the corrosive steel causes undue barrel wear. Copper doesn't corrode, it just gets a patina, that's why old barrels look green when you look at them with a boreshite. LOL wut? Laquered M855? What kind of shit ammo are you buying labeled M855? |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:46:30 AM EDT
[#22]
I have a lot of M855, stacked deep when price was cheap.
It works. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 11:59:26 AM EDT
[#23]
M855 ("green tip") is just plain shitty ammo
Shit ballistics, shit terminal effects, shit accuracy 55gr is the superior old-school milspec round |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 12:03:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL wut? Laquered M855? What kind of shit ammo are you buying labeled M855? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wrong. The lacquer on the cases melts in the chamber and causes the cases to stick and the corrosive steel causes undue barrel wear. Copper doesn't corrode, it just gets a patina, that's why old barrels look green when you look at them with a boreshite. LOL wut? Laquered M855? What kind of shit ammo are you buying labeled M855? M855 is designed for slight AP performance at the cost of slightly poorer accuracy and worse terminal effect (it's only slightly worse than 55gr from the 20" barrels it was designed for, but does not like shorter barrels). My dad was sold a bunch locally and told it was hollow-point ammo. He paid premium SD ammo prices for it. Was not happy when I scraped off some of the green paint and showed it wasn't a soft tip but just copper underneath. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 12:29:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Not shooting for benchrest accuracy or preloading into Gen 3 pmags for defending my life and the lives of my dog and loved ones?
Gimme the cheapest brass cased ammo I can find. I’m even starting to try reman stuff if I’m comfortable with who is putting the components together. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 2:30:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Damn thank you everyone this has been very helpful
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Posted: 10/15/2022 3:04:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @xciapup can you teach that to the buyers at my job?  I recall only a few nuggets from school. A class with Herb Kelleher was full of them. And the old guy who was a WW2 vet who went on to assemble an empire of diversified businesses was the one who said it works against your own interest to drive such a hard bargain that it puts your supplier out of business. The lowest price is not always the best price. And the corollary.....any deal can be broken. So when you think you have negotiated the best one-sided deal ever, don't be surprised when the counter party breaks it. What happens next week when online sales are abolished and you put your LGS out of business last year? |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 3:22:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I stock both M193 and M855. A 3/4ths M193 and 1/4th M855. This. I only have 1 AR that doesn't play nice with green tips, but like to have some on hand in case i need better barrier penetration from my carbines. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 5:50:16 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In before m193 and m855 1 moa shooters. You mean sub moa cherry picked 3 shot groups?
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:04:53 PM EDT
[#30]
Back when GWOT was newish, a lot of people wanted M855/SS109 because it was issue ammo and newer than M193. Some older dudes remembered/heard that M2 AP was all around the best 30-06 in WW2 (accuracy and penetrating obsticals) and thought it would be similar.
The problem comparing M2 AP and M855 is that the tool steel core in M2 takes up most of the bullet, and doesn't have concentricity issues like the small penetrator in M855 bullets. M2 AP also gave meaningful penetration up close compared to M2 ball, unlike M855 which penetrates less steel out to 100m or so than M193. People that read enough here on fragmentation and barrier penetration generally crapped on it, because it sucks at basically everything other than getting mini-14 accuracy out of a decent AR-15 barrel. I do have a pile of it and a bunch of SS109 projectiles, in part because with the ATF was about to ban it in 2015, I thought I might be able to flip it years later like people did with M43 steel core 7.62x39mm. It's blasting ammo fodder for MGs at this point. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:11:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This kind of mentality is why in a couple of years, all the domestic middle market ammo manufacturers will be out of business and all you'll have to choose from is Winchester white box and dogshit ammo from Turkey or some other place. Enjoy. Because I won't pay a 30% mark up in a local Fudd shoppe? 
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:13:58 PM EDT
[#32]
 193 clone using the new PSA 55gr FMJ bullets. My hand loads (Dillion 550, not hand weighed). PSA barrel. Nothing special and neither is the group. It will work though. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Deleted.
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:19:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously? The price difference between online and local is huge. I want downward price pressure, not supporting local Fudd mark up. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I try not to buy ammo online mostly to support local businesses. The price difference between online and local is huge. I want downward price pressure, not supporting local Fudd mark up. Great point on the fudd markup. Fudd ranges are the rule, not the exception. And they suck ass. I'd even shop at Ukraine-Mart over supporting the fudd shop, and that's saying a lot. On the other hand, there is one gun shop here that I'm happy to give my money to as they are awesome folks. If you're ever near Marietta, Ga, give Truprep a visit. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:22:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/255381/2921386D-FE8B-4874-B6DD-0F7A32B11D58-2406060.jpg 193 clone using the new PSA 55gr FMJ bullets. My hand loads (Dillion 550, not hand weighed). PSA barrel. Nothing special and neither is the group. It will work though. Has anyone shot those into calibrated gelatin, or even just sectioned a bunch of them and measured jacket thickness? It used to be that cheap 55 grain bullets that weren't actually produced for M193 had thick jackets and or different alloy compositions and wouldn't fragment well. (Looking at Hornady and Remington here). I'm not much for shooting gelatin personally anymore, but I might get some, section them measure them and if curious enough analyze the core and jacket materials the next time I'm taking stuff for x-ray diff. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:24:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I remember right it requires a higher pressure to keep the Velocity where it should be and something about the steel penetrator causing Concentricity issues that can’t be squished out because the steel doesn’t deform like lead. No idea if that’s right I’m not a physicist or anyone smart really hell I could be remembering it wrong too No. The steel penetrator in green tip is tiny with plenty of lead around it to obturate. Concentricity issues I know of is the penetrator is often not perfectly centered so the bullet is out of balance and opening your groups up a little. M855 velocity is lower than m193 and on par with what other non green tip 62 gr bullets would be. If anything the m193 causes more barrel wear do to the increased velocity. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:25:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. The lacquer on the cases melts in the chamber and causes the cases to stick and the corrosive steel causes undue barrel wear. Copper doesn't corrode, it just gets a patina, that's why old barrels look green when you look at them with a boreshite. 
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:46:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious about them, but swimming in projectiles right now. Has anyone shot those into calibrated gelatin, or even just sectioned a bunch of them and measured jacket thickness? It used to be that cheap 55 grain bullets that weren't actually produced for M193 had thick jackets and or different alloy compositions and wouldn't fragment well. (Looking at Hornady and Remington here). I'm not much for shooting gelatin personally anymore, but I might get some, section them measure them and if curious enough analyze the core and jacket materials the next time I'm taking stuff for x-ray diff. There was a huge thread on them a few months ago. PSA even flew one guy to Columbia to tour and shoot the ammo they make. I didn't know it was going on and posted some concerns about an early run and they sent me 500 more bullets. The group above are from the new batch which do shoot better than the early lots. I have no idea how the bullet would work in gel. Pushed hard enough I would think they be would fine. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 7:15:00 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL wut? Laquered M855? What kind of shit ammo are you buying labeled M855? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wrong. The lacquer on the cases melts in the chamber and causes the cases to stick and the corrosive steel causes undue barrel wear. Copper doesn't corrode, it just gets a patina, that's why old barrels look green when you look at them with a boreshite. LOL wut? Laquered M855? What kind of shit ammo are you buying labeled M855? I was trying to be funny. It sounded better in my head since there was so much off the wall info 
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:11:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Thank you for all the information everyone I have mostly m193. It a little m855 I’ll stick with the plain 55 grain and I’ll even see about picking up some 77 grain to mess with l. How does 77 grain do out of shorter barrels?
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Posted: 10/16/2022 12:25:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for all the information everyone I have mostly m193. It a little m855 I’ll stick with the plain 55 grain and I’ll even see about picking up some 77 grain to mess with l. How does 77 grain do out of shorter barrels? Very well actually. SF started using MK262 in MK18s after they had initially got it for their SPRs |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 1:45:32 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May depend on brand but I get much better accuracy with Winchester M193 than Winchester M855 from a Noveske 16” Pretty much this. However, we are talking 2 MOA vs 2.8 MOA generally. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 1:48:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very well actually. SF started using MK262 in MK18s after they had initially got it for their SPRs Awesome thank you, I have a handful of 16” ars and a single 11.5 inch pistol and I’m building a 20” m16a4 clone slowly so having one ammo for all of them or at least only 2 would be ideal I think |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 2:25:57 AM EDT
[#44]
Would like to see both rounds go through common barriers and then gel tested.
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Posted: 10/16/2022 2:32:44 AM EDT
[#45]
I like 55 grain. All of my barrels are 1/9 and it seems just a tad more accurate (even though I know it’s just me).
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Posted: 10/16/2022 2:42:49 AM EDT
[#46]
OP - a lot of good info on ammo can be found here;
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Ammunition/16/ this is from the section on self-defense ammo. somewhat dated, but still relevant; **Edit- images apparently not loading, but the above thread will take you there Why not M193/M855? While these are not bad bullets, you will note that they are subject to large variations in neck length (distance the bullet penetrates before fragmenting); this variability is not desirable. In case of the short neck length, it is indeed an effective bullet. When 855 doesn't begin to fragment until 8"+, it will not be very effective on front torso shots and thin individuals; this explains the dissatisfaction of US combat troops with M855 in some cases. This is due to a phenomenon recently discovered called the "fleet yaw issue". It was first discussed in an article titled Small Caliber Lethality. There is variation from one rifle to the next about how much the bullet will yaw. The bullet leaving one rifle may exhibit more yaw than the same bullet shot from another rifle. The bullets go through this yaw process on the way to becoming stable, and can yaw by as much as 4 degrees at short distances. You can see in the graph above that the bullet becomes very stable from about 100-400 meters, but the greatest variability - unfortunately - is within CQB range. The angle of attack has a profound impact on how a bullet behaves when striking tissue. Consider the two bullets in the picture below:: When you overlay a low-AOA bullet on a human torso, you can see that this might mean the bullet won't begin it's yaw cycle and fragment until after it leaves the body, making a hole not much bigger than a conventional .22LR: You could engage a target at one distance with a large AOA and great bullet performance, while a few yards more might mean a smaller AOA and poor bullet performance. When M855/193 fragment quickly, they can be very effective. Unfortunately, they could just as easily exhibit poor performance without the end user really knowing how well his particular rifle/ammo performs. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 2:45:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Thread from subform; *as mentioned previously, may be somewhat dated, but has some good info
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 2:50:13 AM EDT
[#48]
62 Gr. Vs. 55 Gr. 5.56 Penetration
 62 Gr. Vs. 55 Gr. 5.56 Penetration-Check description for link to updated results.  5.56 mm 62 gr NATO "Green Tip" vs. 1/4" Welding Steel |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 2:55:33 AM EDT
[#49]
I shoot 55 gn M193 clone ammo. Its cheaper, and more accurate in my experience. I have shot Winchester and federal 62 gn green tip, it was consistently 2 or so MOA less accurate than the M193.
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Posted: 10/16/2022 11:01:44 AM EDT
[#50]
I don't see 855 doing anything "better" then 193 for most scenarios and in many categories 193 is superior.
Bigger_Hammer 
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