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Quoted: How do you know? He might have 2000 hours of actual instrument time logged in four years. Not likely, but 500 hours is easily possible. Or more. Same as his "young" age. Not an indicator. View Quote Agreed. Rating date doesn't mean squat. Experience matters. Age, hours, ratings.... none of that takes priority over competence. I have seen some experienced people do some dumb things that cost people their lives. I updated my info and now my FAA search shows I have only had my licenses for 3 years, so don't trust their data |
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Rumor floated when Harry Reid to the beat down was that he touched the wrong kid. |
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Quoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. View Quote Oops And I bet soon the training records will come out. |
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Quoted: ATIS is talking to an inanimate ATC. It’s gives current conditions, which could change rapidly. I want a real voice, on a tower to help me decide if a landing is go, or no go. View Quote LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? |
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Quoted: Dude only got his instrument rating in 2019. He had no business in that plane. View Quote If 4 years isn't enough, then what's your barometer? This guy might have been in over his head with the weather.... That doesn't mean they all are. No doubt the lack of a SIC was a big contributor. |
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Early Analysis: Cessna Citation 550 Crash July 8, 2023 Murrieta/Temecula, CA |
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Quoted: LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: ATIS is talking to an inanimate ATC. It’s gives current conditions, which could change rapidly. I want a real voice, on a tower to help me decide if a landing is go, or no go. LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? My reference was related to the actual weather conditions at the airport. I believe you get better real-time info from the tower than ATIS. And, the Captain was supposed to be flying with a certified co-pilot. Sad situation. |
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Quoted: Wonder if the pilot was considering diverting but got pressured by the passengers to land? I would think a young pilot like that would be super cautious. . View Quote My casual observation is that young guys are more likely to do cowboy shit and put themselves at serious risk. Old guys less likely to do cowboy shit but when they do it saves the day. Not a hard and fast thing by any means. |
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Quoted: LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? View Quote Real time data aggregated from previous arrivals trump AWOS all day. At a place I worked the weather machine was so far from the approach end of a runway it may as well have been a different Airport. Weather personnel couldn't see it either but we could feed you the data for the last hours arrivals to help you make a better decision. Low altitude alerts are also a thing |
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Quoted: Oops And I bet soon the training records will come out. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. Oops And I bet soon the training records will come out. Didn't some of the citations have some sort of bizarre way of doing single pilot? I seem to remember something along the lines of the plane not being single pilot certified, but pilots can get a single pilot waiver? Maybe the waiver doesn't show up on the airman registry? Going back 20 years trying to remember how some guys I knew did it, so I could be off. Hopefully somebody can chime in and correct me if wrong. |
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KCRQ is literally fifteen minutes away in a 550 and has an ILS. Getthereitis and stupid pilot tricks. 300 foot ceiling with no ILS, no thanks.
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Quoted: AWOS is a snapshot that is not updated often enough to be trustworthy. I have landed when AWOS was reporting wind 180 degrees from the current condition. Visibility reporting should not be trusted, it's slightly better than simply guessing from where you sit. View Quote Seems like more timely and accurate Wx updates on AWOS would be a reasonable NTSB recommendation, although I really have no idea how automated visibility estimates work. I do know how we made them in school... we knew how far away various bridges and buildings were, so if you could see them you had pretty fair vis estimate. Ceiling was more of a guess based on the height of the buildings and bridges, but these days could be actually measured with few devices called "lasers." |
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Quoted: Could he though?? Read the last line. Needed a Second In Command. Who is that supposed to be? It sure wasn't the dealership owner- IBRAHEM H RAZICK Airman opted-out of releasing address Medical Information: No Medical Information Available Certificates STUDENT PILOT Certificates Description Certificate: STUDENT PILOT Date of Issue: 4/21/2023 Limits: CARRYING PASSENGERS IS PROHIBITED. View Quote |
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View Quote We’ll, it looks like he did have a Flight Officer. Tower records could be replayed to confirm his voice (that should be easy) |
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View Quote Well those details are interesting. Complete back side of the clock flying into what they thought was VFR conditions but turned out to be below minimums. Older jet, level of LNAV / VNAV minimums unknown, but with the wx a 1/2 mile vis, the approach minimums aren't even close. Did they even have an alternate filed and alternate gas? Maybe not since they cancelled IFR enroute, though picked it up again. I think the most probable causal factors will end up being fatigue, lack of alternate gas, weather, inexperience, and intentionally flying below approach minimums. There is no point to doing another approach when the wx is 1/2 mile and the mins are at least 1 nm. Going missed the first time and then doing the same approach again with no change in the vis makes zero sense unless you have a ton of gas and a good alternate and a reason to suspect you will get in the next time. |
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Quoted: Real time data aggregated from previous arrivals trump AWOS all day. At a place I worked the weather machine was so far from the approach end of a runway it may as well have been a different Airport. Weather personnel couldn't see it either but we could feed you the data for the last hours arrivals to help you make a better decision. Low altitude alerts are also a thing View Quote Valid but my point is that the guy sitting in the airplane is the best judge of what's being seen at minimums, not an automated system nor the tower, and the tower generally isn't going to be giving input on whether or not the pilot should continue trying to get in or go to the alternate. |
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Quoted: Valid but my point is that the guy sitting in the airplane is the best judge of what's being seen at minimums, not an automated system nor the tower, and the tower generally isn't going to be giving input on whether or not the pilot should continue trying to get in or go to the alternate. View Quote I agree with your point on the minimums. The pilot obviously ignored protocol by not finding an alternative airport, or was completely ignorant about the minimums. |
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according to this:
https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/208935521/n819kr-1979-cessna-citation-ii the aircraft had a Garmin 625 installed which is LPV capable, if so then his minimums would have been 300 & 7/8 Wx reported at 300 & 1/2 I would guess he was hoping to get in due to ceiling at 300 feet and ceiling mins for approach LPV was 300 feet, even though the vis was less than approach mins. But who knows what the tower was reporting for vis. I am assuming part 91 can use ceiling only, but maybe it doesn't matter if part 91 can do the approach no matter what the weather is relative to the mins. Seems like a duck under the mins in hopes of seeing the approach lights could have been what happened. or maybe he saw the approach lights on the first attempt but was not in a safe position to land and went missed and tried again. |
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Viz is limiting factor for all operators.
Dumb to try approach the second time IMHO. Fatigue and lack experience (years not hours) and pressure from bosses on plane, maybe one of them up front with him too. |
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Quoted: Didn't some of the citations have some sort of bizarre way of doing single pilot? I seem to remember something along the lines of the plane not being single pilot certified, but pilots can get a single pilot waiver? Maybe the waiver doesn't show up on the airman registry? Going back 20 years trying to remember how some guys I knew did it, so I could be off. Hopefully somebody can chime in and correct me if wrong. View Quote Been awhile since I sent a guy to a Cessna school at a FSI but I believe that was baked into the training and price of the type of the type, so you sent a guy knowing he was going to be single pilot qual'd. Occasionally we sent a person to SIC removal requirement training. I think the SP training was more expensive but all of our training on 6 different types was kind of log rolled so the prices got wonky after awhile. |
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Quoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. View Quote |
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Quoted: KCRQ is literally fifteen minutes away in a 550 and has an ILS. Getthereitis and stupid pilot tricks. 300 foot ceiling with no ILS, no thanks. View Quote That right at minimums for lots of GPS LPVs. I've only done them in a B200 but LPV if anything is more stable than an ILS. What you're giving up is good approach lighting. |
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Sad for the 6 who lost their lives. Imagine if possible medical malpractice events were handled like this. How quickly would med mal go from being one of the leading causes of death to one of the lowest? I'm thinking of the book titled "Black Box Thinking."
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Quoted: But who knows what the tower was reporting for vis. I am assuming part 91 can use ceiling only, but maybe it doesn't matter if part 91 can do the approach no matter what the weather is relative to the mins. View Quote Airnav airport info Airport Operations Airport use: Open to the public Activation date: 07/1989 Control tower: no ARTCC: LOS ANGELES CENTER FSS: RIVERSIDE FLIGHT SERVICE STATION |
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Quoted: That's a lot of money to progress in that short period. Where did a young guy like himself get that dough? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. Just speculation, but he probably comes from a wealthy family. The article listed on the previous page said he lived in Rancho Palos Verdes. That’s definitely a wealthy community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_Palos_Verdes,_California |
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