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Posted: 12/7/2019 10:02:28 AM EDT
Today marks the unjustified sneak attack that the Imperial Japanese Navy improperly executed, could have been far worse, they shot themselves in the foot twice that day, silly Japan, the world could have been a different place if Japan never attacked us, it could have been a really different place if they never declared war on England France and the Dutch and just stayed in their area poking China, but well we needed to get involved in WW2 anyway, if it wasn't Japan it was probably going to be Germany causing another Lusitania like event.

Here's to the Fallen, May they sleep well

Oh and today is my birthday I'm 28 now.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:08:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Unjustified....

We were pushing them into an economic corner that the either had to loose face according to their culture or fight. They took what was to their  belief system the more honorable choice.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:12:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Unjustified....

We were pushing them into an economic corner that the either had to loose face according to their culture or fight. They took what was to their  belief system the more honorable choice.
View Quote
Unjustified by our standards

I love that we don't play by the same set of rules that the rest of the world does

Strategically though it was really stupid idea.

Oh hey guys let's declare war on some of the most powerful Nations on Earth!

I would have just stayed in my little corner, I would have put a lot of effort on turning coal into liquid fuel, that could have helped alleviate the oil embargo to some degree at least for the military, would have taken years to get that off the ground though, there is a shit ton of coal in Manchuria and Korea.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:14:35 AM EDT
[#3]






Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:14:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:22:24 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:23:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:27:15 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:31:32 AM EDT
[#8]


My bday also op. Not 28 though
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:32:23 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


My bday also op. Not 28 though
View Quote
48?
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:35:00 AM EDT
[#10]
I took this pic while on a helo tour of Oahu.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:35:27 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
48?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


My bday also op. Not 28 though
48?
Ha not yet. 41
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:36:53 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm named after my mother's uncle who was there and survived it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:36:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Four months later, Tokyo was bombed.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:38:58 AM EDT
[#14]
RIP Men.  
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:39:07 AM EDT
[#15]
Memorial Day 2020 - U.S. Naval Academy Glee Club - U.S.S. Arizona Memorial
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:40:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Japan actually accomplished their stated goal in WWII.  They ended European Colonialism in the Far East.  Their hidden goal of becoming the dominant colonial power in that part of the world did not work out so well.

My father in law (USMC) was a Pearl Harbor Survivor.

My father was on a battleship (USS Washington) stationed on the east coast at the time of the attack.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 10:41:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 11:23:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Unjustified by our standards

I love that we don't play by the same set of rules that the rest of the world does

Strategically though it was really stupid idea.

Oh hey guys let's declare war on some of the most powerful Nations on Earth!

I would have just stayed in my little corner, I would have put a lot of effort on turning coal into liquid fuel, that could have helped alleviate the oil embargo to some degree at least for the military, would have taken years to get that off the ground though, there is a shit ton of coal in Manchuria and Korea.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unjustified....

We were pushing them into an economic corner that the either had to loose face according to their culture or fight. They took what was to their  belief system the more honorable choice.
Unjustified by our standards

I love that we don't play by the same set of rules that the rest of the world does

Strategically though it was really stupid idea.

Oh hey guys let's declare war on some of the most powerful Nations on Earth!

I would have just stayed in my little corner, I would have put a lot of effort on turning coal into liquid fuel, that could have helped alleviate the oil embargo to some degree at least for the military, would have taken years to get that off the ground though, there is a shit ton of coal in Manchuria and Korea.
If they had gotten the carriers it would've been a really great idea. Why weren't the carriers in port ?

Most of the major European powers were either conquered by or being subjugated by Germany and were in no condition to protect their Asian colonies.

They were well underway to building a blue water Navy and 1st nation air force. You can't run it on coal.

After being told to basically fuck off after WW 1 they were already in a bad mood. The embargoes just capped it off.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 11:30:07 AM EDT
[#19]
Here is my photo of the memorial.

Pearl Harbor Memorial by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/134900715@N08/]
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 11:40:36 AM EDT
[#20]
We had a resident Pearl Harbor survivor that was navy. He passed away last year.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 11:49:16 AM EDT
[#21]
and now we are stuck with Red China
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 11:57:44 AM EDT
[#22]
And Kaneohe Bay
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:02:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Good post. Happy 28th Pony.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:08:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

If they had gotten the carriers it would've been a really great idea. Why weren't the carriers in port ?

Most of the major European powers were either conquered by or being subjugated by Germany and were in no condition to protect their Asian colonies.

They were well underway to building a blue water Navy and 1st nation air force. You can't run it on coal.

After being told to basically fuck off after WW 1 they were already in a bad mood. The embargoes just capped it off.
View Quote
Really great idea? Even if they had gotten the carriers, we were in the process of wiping them off the map in 3.5 years using 10% of our strength.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:11:15 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Four months later, Tokyo was bombed.
https://i.imgur.com/9piyZZv.jpg
View Quote
One of my favorite pics.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:11:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Indeed.

Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:12:16 PM EDT
[#27]
It’s Been in the news lately.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:17:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Happy Birthday LP!
Now go buy yourself some shooting's gear.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:25:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Really great idea? Even if they had gotten the carriers, we were in the process of wiping them off the map in 3.5 years using 10% of our strength.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

If they had gotten the carriers it would've been a really great idea. Why weren't the carriers in port ?

Most of the major European powers were either conquered by or being subjugated by Germany and were in no condition to protect their Asian colonies.

They were well underway to building a blue water Navy and 1st nation air force. You can't run it on coal.

After being told to basically fuck off after WW 1 they were already in a bad mood. The embargoes just capped it off.
Really great idea? Even if they had gotten the carriers, we were in the process of wiping them off the map in 3.5 years using 10% of our strength.
Our carriers are what held them off at Coral Sea and allowed the victory at Midway which turned the tide in the Pacific. It would have greatly lengthened the time, material and lives lost to recaptured and beat Japan if the carriers were sunk at Pearl. I doubt if you could find anyone that fought in that war or their commanding officers that would agree to your 10% of our strength claim.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:45:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Happy bday!  Mine was on the 1st.

The USS Downes, a Mahan class destroyer, was in dry dock at Pearl Harbor when it took in a Jap. bomb.  It was hauled to San Fransisco, rebuilt (actually a new ship constructed from usable parts from the Downes) and recommissioned.  My grandfather was 17 at the time and joined up.  He was assigned to the Downes and headed for the Pacific.  After the war, he lived a good, long life, a successful business man with a wife and 2 kids.  My dad owned his business after him and now me and my brother.  He passed way in the mid 90s.  He said the most terrified he ever was on the ship was not during battle, but on the way home during a storm.

I remember as a kid being at his house and he would say, “A boy your age ought not to hear this, but I’m going to tell you anyway...” and he would then tell me about the war.  I was intrigued!


Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:46:30 PM EDT
[#31]
My mom turned 85 this year.  Here is the comment she texted to me this morning:

"12/7.  I remember this day in 1941 like it was yesterday."
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:48:17 PM EDT
[#32]
RIP Dad and FIL. Both were Pacific sailors during the war.

My father was CG and drove landing craft during some of the major invasions. He was wounded during a kamikaze attack on his ship.

My FIL had the heavy cruiser Astoria shot from under him at the Battle of Savo Island. She took an estimated 65 hits from the Japanese before she went down.

Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:50:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
RIP Dad and FIL. Both were Pacific sailors during the war.

My father was CG and drove landing craft during some of the major invasions. He was wounded during a kamikaze attack on his ship.

My FIL had the heavy cruiser Astoria shot from under him at the Battle of Savo Island. She took an estimated 65 hits from the Japanese before she went down.

View Quote
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 12:51:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Unjustified....

We were pushing them into an economic corner that the either had to loose face according to their culture or fight. They took what was to their  belief system the more honorable choice.
View Quote
That is complete bullshit. We went over this a couple of weeks ago.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:00:20 PM EDT
[#35]
I have the honor today of displaying some of my ww2 items at my state museum for their 12/7 event
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:05:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Today marks the unjustified sneak attack that the Imperial Japanese Navy improperly executed, could have been far worse, they shot themselves in the foot twice that day, silly Japan, the world could have been a different place if Japan never attacked us, it could have been a really different place if they never declared war on England France and the Dutch and just stayed in their area poking China, but well we needed to get involved in WW2 anyway, if it wasn't Japan it was probably going to be Germany causing another Lusitania like event.

Oh and today is my birthday I'm 28 now.

Here's to the Fallen, May they sleep well
View Quote

You nailed it. Totally unjustified.
Also happy birthday from a fellow 12/07-er You’re only the 2nd other person I’ve met who I share a birthday with.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:06:36 PM EDT
[#37]


The Missouri moored where she is standing guard over the Arizona is quite a statement back to the Japanese
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:08:23 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
That is complete bullshit. We went over this a couple of weeks ago.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Unjustified....

We were pushing them into an economic corner that the either had to loose face according to their culture or fight. They took what was to their  belief system the more honorable choice.
That is complete bullshit. We went over this a couple of weeks ago.
So acquiescing to our demands regarding their invasion and treatment of Manchuria so that an relaxation of the embargo would not be looked at as weakness on their behalf ?
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:09:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Today marks the unjustified sneak attack that the Imperial Japanese Navy improperly executed, could have been far worse, they shot themselves in the foot twice that day, silly Japan, the world could have been a different place if Japan never attacked us, it could have been a really different place if they never declared war on England France and the Dutch and just stayed in their area poking China, but well we needed to get involved in WW2 anyway, if it wasn't Japan it was probably going to be Germany causing another Lusitania like event.

Oh and today is my birthday I'm 28 now.

Here's to the Fallen, May they sleep well
View Quote
I don't agree with you on many topics LP, but Happy Birthday and thank you for remembering Pearl Harbor Day.

Had the events of December 7, 1941 not unfolded as they did I would not be here.

On 12/7/41 my Father was a machinist at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in N.H.
On 12/7/41 my Mother was working in San Francisco in a Salvation Army home for unwed Mothers.

Early January of 1942 both of my parents boarded a ship in Long Beach headed for Honolulu.

My Dad worked for the Navy in Shop 31 at Pearl as a machinist.
My Mom worked as the personal secretary of the Admiral of the Pacific Fleet.... I don't remember his name.  She also
worked with the Salvation Army in Honolulu.

In '42 they met and married in '44.

On their Honeymoon they shipped my Dads Harley to Kauai.  They got 3 flat tires and had to stuff the tires
with seaweed.

They both made it home after the war and had 4 kids and lived the American dream.

Thanks again LP!
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:25:53 PM EDT
[#40]
The Japanese did have to back down, or attack. They decided not to back down in China.

Oil, materials, and economics were the tool by which we hoped to force Japan to back down via embargo.

When Japan decided to attack, they had to secure these natural resources. To grab these, they had to take (at least) the French and Dutch colonies. To take these colonies and not attack US and UK holdings would leave them hopelessly exposed to the point of lunacy: relying solely on the good will (of which there was little) and distraction (which only the UK was) to prevent disaster by having US/UK territories and bases hopelessly inset at the center of the Japanese lines of communication.



You only need a middle school understanding of strategy to see Japan's problem.

What we weren't expecting was the speed, coordination, and breadth of the Japanese onslaught that started with near simultaneous attacks on Dec 7 in Hawaii, Wake, Midway, Guam, Philippines, Hong Kong, British Malaya, and French Indochina.



One Grandfather was on CV-6 ENTERPRISE, the other became and instructor/test pilot for B-17s then B-29s (his 48 star flag is flying outside my house today).
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:25:53 PM EDT
[#41]
It WAS  huge mistake, on their part, and Yamamoto told them as much.

It was also a miscalculation on their part. They were led to believe that we didn't have the will to fight and if they hit us hard enough, they believed we would negotiate with them, rather than go to war with them.

The American outrage after the attack wasn't what they expected.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:34:50 PM EDT
[#42]
We were there two days ago. Hawaii is an amazingly peaceful place. Hard to even imagine a forceful argument let alone the violence of a surprise attack.
Most of those young men killed were junior enlisted since they were sleeping aboard the ships or in the barracks. It took the captain of the Pennsylvania an hour to get back aboard.

Pearl Harbor itself is smaller than I imagined.

The second attacking wave got its ass kicked as our gunners were alert and had found their ranges. A cook shot down 4 and was awarded the Navy Cross.

A third wave that would have hit the fuel storage and the water system would have really done a lot of damage.

At Hickham field and other locations the buildings still have damage from the attack visible.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 1:58:08 PM EDT
[#43]
My great grandfather was CO of Submarine Base Pearl Harbor and Submarine Squadron Four when the attack occurred. In Tora Tora Tora, the officer who jumps on the running board of the staff car, that was him. (During the real attack, not the film.)
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 3:12:39 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:
I took this pic while on a helo tour of Oahu.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/76856/arizona_jpg-1186462.JPG
View Quote
Wow. That is a really good photo.

That is where I re-enlisted my first time. I guess that was 1984.

As someone already pointed out, those islands are beautiful. The property crime is worse on Oahu, though, than anyplace I've ever been. If you have an idea you want to take a ferry out to the Arizona, it's likely your rental car will be burglarized while you're out there.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 3:32:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It WAS  huge mistake, on their part, and Yamamoto told them as much.

It was also a miscalculation on their part. They were led to believe that we didn't have the will to fight and if they hit us hard enough, they believed we would negotiate with them, rather than go to war with them.

The American outrage after the attack wasn't what they expected.
View Quote
They had that problem a lot.  Most of their battle planning, besides being hideously overcomplicated with separate fleets unable to support each other, was predicated on us doing exactly what they expected/wanted us to do.  That tends to not go well.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 7:01:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wow. That is a really good photo.

That is where I re-enlisted my first time. I guess that was 1984.

As someone already pointed out, those islands are beautiful. The property crime is worse on Oahu, though, than anyplace I've ever been. If you have an idea you want to take a ferry out to the Arizona, it's likely your rental car will be burglarized while you're out there.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I took this pic while on a helo tour of Oahu.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/76856/arizona_jpg-1186462.JPG
Wow. That is a really good photo.

That is where I re-enlisted my first time. I guess that was 1984.

As someone already pointed out, those islands are beautiful. The property crime is worse on Oahu, though, than anyplace I've ever been. If you have an idea you want to take a ferry out to the Arizona, it's likely your rental car will be burglarized while you're out there.
We thought about a rental car, but decided against it as we did a bunch of excursions that the hotel  had available for guests, covered all the major attractions and then some....the helo tour was a doors off flight done by Magnum Helicopter tours........yep, that helicopter.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 7:07:59 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
Four months later, Tokyo was bombed.
https://i.imgur.com/9piyZZv.jpg
View Quote
'Murica.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 7:15:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9jWwAYqX7_.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9kWoAEUpPv.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9mXsAM8LH6.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9nWwAYaotF.jpg:large
View Quote
I greatly prefer this photo:

Link Posted: 12/7/2019 7:16:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
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Quoted:
Quoted:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9jWwAYqX7_.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9kWoAEUpPv.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9mXsAM8LH6.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELL-k9nWwAYaotF.jpg:large
I greatly prefer this photo:

https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2015/8/5/4505944177b14e7a9b3cd0befed9d4bf_6.jpg
That ended it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2019 9:22:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If they had gotten the carriers it would've been a really great idea. Why weren't the carriers in port ?

They were well underway to building a blue water Navy and 1st nation air force. You can't run it on coal.

After being told to basically fuck off after WW 1 they were already in a bad mood. The embargoes just capped it off.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unjustified....

We were pushing them into an economic corner that the either had to loose face according to their culture or fight. They took what was to their  belief system the more honorable choice.
Unjustified by our standards

I love that we don't play by the same set of rules that the rest of the world does

Strategically though it was really stupid idea.

Oh hey guys let's declare war on some of the most powerful Nations on Earth!

I would have just stayed in my little corner, I would have put a lot of effort on turning coal into liquid fuel, that could have helped alleviate the oil embargo to some degree at least for the military, would have taken years to get that off the ground though, there is a shit ton of coal in Manchuria and Korea.
If they had gotten the carriers it would've been a really great idea. Why weren't the carriers in port ?

They were well underway to building a blue water Navy and 1st nation air force. You can't run it on coal.

After being told to basically fuck off after WW 1 they were already in a bad mood. The embargoes just capped it off.
Japan was the only major power that went to war with limited goals in mind.  They knew of our building plans- build to Washington and London Treaty limits and replace overage ships in 1938, exceed limits in 1939, Two Ocean Navy in 1940.  Page one of BuShips report the week before PH shows what capital ships were in the building pipeline.  Remember, the first BBs since WWI had been commissioned in the Atlantic that Summer, but were undergoing a painfully slow workup program and unavailable to ADM Kimmel, who begged for them and the return of Yorktown.  Building times dropped dramatically 6 months after PH, and many additional ships funded.
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