User Panel
Aside from the Armslist sellers, does this really affect someone who occasionally sells a longarm from time to time (year after year)? I keep seeing 3+ sales blah blah.....
|
|
Gotta get as many rules in as possible before Chevron is overturned... every unconstitutional gun grab will be made law by congress codifying "all existing rules".
|
|
Quoted: Aside from the Armslist sellers, does this really affect someone who occasionally sells a longarm from time to time (year after year)? I keep seeing 3+ sales blah blah..... View Quote There's also the "sell within 30 days of acquiring," "repeatedly sell firearms of the same model, etc.", or " sell within a year if still new with all paperwork," etc. |
|
Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL. Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed? Hahaha. Everyone start applying for a license now.
|
|
Quoted: Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL. Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed? Hahaha. Everyone start applying for a license now. View Quote And they won't give it to ya. Quite the catch-22. Just fuck these criminals. |
|
|
Quoted: By that definition, anyone that sells or trades in their vehicle for more than they paid needs to be a licensed car dealer. Anyone that sells their house for more than they paid for it years ago needs to be a licensed real estate agent, etc. Who decides what a firearm is worth over time? I guess if I want to sell a gun I no longer want I will self declare the value to me as $10,000 so that I will be selling at a major loss. View Quote Then you can get a tax write off too... |
|
Quoted: Quoted: summary? Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally? If you sell for a "profit" then yes. Who has ever sold a firearm, "for profit"? *wink, wink John: Lists new/ used firearm for sale Edward: "Would you take $500 for said firearm?" John: "Sure. It's a deal." Edward: "Hey John, you're not making a profit off this sale are you? See, the ATF has just issued this rule......" John: "Are you a glowie? Edward: "No." John: "No." **Private party meeting complete** This does nothing to impact private party sales. |
|
|
Quoted: Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? ATF could still consider you "engaged in Business" if you meet other terms. |
|
Ok so give me an FFL so I can buy and sell.
Oh wait you won’t. FATF |
|
View Quote Sweet! Every one gets an FFL and now I can buy direct woot woot |
|
466 pages.
Holy shit. I read the entire 100 page Arm Brace ruling - and it was worth doing so and more informed than any of the youtube shit. But Jesus, 466 pages All I can say is stay away from youtube, as you will be misinformed heavily from.most of those clowns. Best hope is someone here in an unbiased way reads it and gives their assessment here. Until then it's going to be cherry picked sound bite assessments, which will still be better than youtube. I know dudes who were buying CMP Garands by the dozen for purpose of resale - sounds like this is going to target that. I know every single gun owner here sells guns from time to time - and everybody who is watching this thread wants to know the impact of buying a gun, deciding to sell it later. Me too. |
|
They lost funding and are pulling more shit. It is a election year bother your local congress for more defunding of the ATF!!!
|
|
Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. View Quote DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales. They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked |
|
Quoted: Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? Nope. If anything that paper trail makes it easier to convict you I knew an FFL who refused to do transfers of used blue label Glocks after a few years of business. Said he was tired of ATF spending all day in his store looking for the guys who buy two every year but sell one of them. |
|
The ATF issued the proposed version of the rules in August and opened them up to public comment for 90 days. Officials said they received nearly 400,000 comments, two-thirds of which were clearly in favor of the rules. A quarter of the comments were decidedly against the proposal, the officials said, and other comments did not take a clear stance on the rules. View Quote So these cunts recruited all the New Jersey catladies to comment in support, so they could write this in the news stories. |
|
Quoted: There's also the "sell within 30 days of acquiring," "repeatedly sell firearms of the same model, etc.", or " sell within a year if still new with all paperwork," etc. View Quote Not just "new with all paperwork", the rule says "new, or like new in their original packaging". Let's say you're searching for a new CC and you buy three handguns, fire 50 rounds out of each, and decide to keep one. You go to sell the other two with everything they came with about 6 months later. That would require an FFL in the eyes of the ATF per this rule. |
|
(g)Related definitions. For purposes of this definition— (1)The term “purchase” (and derivative terms thereof) means the act of obtaining a firearm in an agreed exchange for something of value; (2)The term “sale” (and derivative terms thereof) means the act of disposing of a firearm in an agreed exchange for something of value, and the term “resale” means selling a firearm, including a stolen firearm, after it was previously sold by the original manufacturer or any other person; and (3)The term “something of value” includes money, credit, personal property (e.g., another firearm or ammunition), a service, a controlled substance, or any other medium of exchange or valuable consideration, legal or illegal. ETA: a lot of the 466 pages is " remove the third word in paragraph 3 and replace with "criminal". |
|
|
Quoted: What they are saying is you need to have an attorney give you an opinion on whether or not you require a FFL. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security. What they are saying is you need to have an attorney give you an opinion on whether or not you require a FFL. It will come down to this. Plus, you know that this will launch a thousand lawsuits, which will take months to years to adjudicate. And here we go. |
|
A senior FBI agent once told me that ATF stands for Ass-Holes Toting Firearms
|
|
Quoted: A senior FBI agent once told me that ATF stands for Ass-Holes Toting Firearms View Quote Attached File |
|
Quoted: Washington Post Justice Dept. finalizes rules to close ‘gun show loophole’ https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms (cold) A firearm with a pen laying on an official application to own or manufacture a firearm. On April 10, 2024, the Attorney General signed ATF’s final rule, Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations in title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”), part 478. The final rule implements the provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (“BSCA,” effective June 25, 2022), which broadened the definition of when a person is considered “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms (other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker). The Final Rule clarifies that definition. It will be published in the Federal Register and will be effective 30-days from publication. This final rule incorporates BSCA’s definitions of “predominantly earn a profit” and “terrorism,” and amends the regulatory definitions of “engaged in the business as a dealer other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker” and “principal objective of livelihood and profit” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory changes and can be relied upon by the public. The final rule clarifies when a person is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms at wholesale or retail by: clarifying the definition of “dealer,” and defining the terms “purchase,” “sale,” and “something of value” as they apply to dealers; adding definitions for the term “personal collection (or personal collection of firearms, or personal firearms collection),” and for “responsible person”; setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings; clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes; clarifying the circumstances when a person would not be presumed to engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including as an auctioneer, or when purchasing firearms for, and selling firearms from, a personal collection; addressing the procedures former licensees, and responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, must follow when they liquidate business inventory upon revocation or other termination of their license; and clarifying that licensees must follow the verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H, rather than using an ATF Form 4473 when firearms are transferred to other licensees, including transfers by a licensed sole proprietor to that person’s personal collection. Please note that this is the text of the final rule as signed by the Attorney General, but the official version of the final rule will be as it is published in the Federal Register. The rule will go into effect once it is published in the Federal Register. View Quote https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/ruling/atf-final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download (466 pages) View Quote |
|
This is simply shameful.
More government for the sake of more government to justify some cocksuckers paycheck & benefits. Prosecute criminals. Protect the Constitution. Uphold your oath. |
|
|
|
Quoted: Not just "new with all paperwork", the rule says "new, or like new in their original packaging". Let's say you're searching for a new CC and you buy three handguns, fire 50 rounds out of each, and decide to keep one. You go to sell the other two with everything they came with about 6 months later. That would require an FFL in the eyes of the ATF per this rule. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: There's also the "sell within 30 days of acquiring," "repeatedly sell firearms of the same model, etc.", or " sell within a year if still new with all paperwork," etc. Not just "new with all paperwork", the rule says "new, or like new in their original packaging". Let's say you're searching for a new CC and you buy three handguns, fire 50 rounds out of each, and decide to keep one. You go to sell the other two with everything they came with about 6 months later. That would require an FFL in the eyes of the ATF per this rule. Yep, Or buy a gun, try it and not like it, then try to sell it Or sell a gun you won in a raffle or competition |
|
Quoted: DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales. They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales. They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked The solution is obvious. Buy Anderson lowers when on sale for 30$. Buy Spikes 20 packs of LPKs and spring kits. Buy many PSA blem uppers when on sale. Give them away. Repeat. Fuck them. Flush the country in untrackable arms. |
|
Quoted: Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales View Quote While it doesn’t seem like it would be aimed at the one off gun sellers on those sites I’m guessing the regulations they’ll cook up to enforce it will be designed specifically to make it too hard for the sites to comply with. |
|
|
|
|
|
Quoted: The solution is obvious. Buy Anderson lowers when on sale for 30$. Buy Spikes 20 packs of LPKs and spring kits. Buy many PSA blem uppers when on sale. Give them away. Repeat. Fuck them. Flush the country in untrackable arms. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales. They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked The solution is obvious. Buy Anderson lowers when on sale for 30$. Buy Spikes 20 packs of LPKs and spring kits. Buy many PSA blem uppers when on sale. Give them away. Repeat. Fuck them. Flush the country in untrackable arms. Why do you think I express such contempt for private sellers that want to see ID, or a CCW, or want a bill of sale? |
|
On the bright side I can tell my wife that the ATF said I can't sell any of my guns anymore. I am sure she would not want the house torched and the dog shot.
|
|
Quoted: While it doesn’t seem like it would be aimed at the one off gun sellers on those sites View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales While it doesn’t seem like it would be aimed at the one off gun sellers on those sites So new user name with zero feedback for each EE listing? |
|
Quoted: Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? In that case, the gov gets its 4473, and the dealer/consignment place gets to charge everybody for both the consignment and the transfer fee. |
|
What are you supposed to do with a firearm that you inherit?
|
|
Skimming it looks like you can still sell your personal guns/collections.
|
|
Quoted: In that case, the gov gets its 4473, and the dealer/consignment place gets to charge everybody for both the consignment and the transfer fee. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? In that case, the gov gets its 4473, and the dealer/consignment place gets to charge everybody for both the consignment and the transfer fee. That still will not protect you from charges of dealing without a license. |
|
View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings; clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes; So everyone is a dealer. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/snaps-178.gif Kharn Sound a lot like your presumed guilty until proven otherwise to me and is antithetical to the bill of rights. Why would anyone expect the fucking ATF to understand the bill of rights? |
|
View Quote Highschool US government class says this is bullshit. The executive branch doest not interpret (revise the definition) the law. The Judicial branch does. |
|
I'll sell you this sticker for $500, and I'll give you the gun for free.
|
|
These are the kickers:
However there is no minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensing requirement. Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms. For example even a single firearm transaction or offer to engage in a transaction... So, 1) Even ONE transaction can land you in jail as an "unlicensed dealer". 2) Even ONE offer to sell/buy can be a violation, and can land you in jail as an "unlicensed dealer", even though NO SALE/PURCHASE took place. Further: Makes and maintains records to document, track, or calculate profits and losses from firearms repetitively purchased for resale. (emphasis added) So IF you track your firearms in a spreadsheet, notebook, etc., that could be used as proof you are an "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms". Note it says "OR calculate profits/losses" -- it doesn't require you to track money to show intent -- only that you keep ANY sort of record concerning your firearms, regardless of whether there is any sort of money numbers involved. At all times, the determination of whether a person is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is based on the totality of the circumstances. In other words, the BATF agent makes a judgement call that may not have any connection to the rule, but is instead just based on the "totality of the circumstances" and you can be charged on that agent's opinion alone. |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.