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Posted: 2/15/2021 3:01:08 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a good gap between self propelled track systems and towed, wonder why we don't experiment with this. Even India is rocking some cool shit ??  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaK1jFg8JBEI think we figured out why India keeps losing these border skirmishes with the Chinese. Between the hopping around and dramatic poses, they probably provide a decent target for even the worst marksmen |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 3:03:59 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Artillery has been neglected. Foreign militaries are a generation or two past us in some cases. Kind of sad. The US Army were the masters of Artillery in WW2 and Korea. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 3:14:03 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Towed artillery has a purpose, it should just be all 105s. Nah. 105’s don’t have the range. And as awesome as the 119er is...sometimes you need to reach out a bit more. Some will say just go HIMARS/MLRS at that point, but they are expensive. An M107 or M795 costs around $100 each. That’s cheap bang. As for OP’s question...can’t answer that one as I don’t have time in the 777. One of our sister batteries had them. I do know they blew one up....I guess someone forgot to check if the white witness marks were aligned on the breach. Not sure if that is a common problem on the 777 or not. Either way, I had two 198’s, one 119er, and two M120 mortars in my arty PLT. We managed to get them all up at once during an attack on our FOB in early 2010. It was fun.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 3:48:24 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah. 105’s don’t have the range. And as awesome as the 119er is...sometimes you need to reach out a bit more. Some will say just go HIMARS/MLRS at that point, but they are expensive. An M107 or M795 costs around $100 each. That’s cheap bang. The M119 and M1 round have a short range. The Denel M2020 ammunition and the G7 can go 30km with base bleed. The BB screws on to the M2020 and M2019 rounds. One is an HE, one is a PFF round that is more effective than M795. But the ammunition is 80% lighter. And it fits on a Stryker chassis. Or you can jump it as a towed piece. ETA: M107 costs somewhere between $1000 and $2000 a round, not counting tube wear. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 7:31:10 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would? WHAT???? |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 7:43:06 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny you mention that. I read somewhere recently that the Army was looking at a few different foreign designs, including ARCHER AND CAESAR to replace to towed guns in Stryker Brigades. Who knows if that will go anywhere, that's not my area of expertise.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8ITwd4Vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_g3VSVFyisFor the love of God, please no autoloader systems |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 7:49:25 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ask and you shall receive.  Brutus https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/04/Image-1-Brutus-Mobile-Howitzer.jpg The HMMWV mounted 105mm Hawkeye is its little brother. https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/08/1l-image-Hawkeye-Mobile-Weapon-System.jpg I think both have real merit, especially considering the threat of counter battery - even more so with so many other, potentially adversary, Nations having artillery that so significantly out ranges ours. -K Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: They're half the weight, so they tow better behind a 5 ton Quoted: Lighter, so it's easier to transport by helicopter or plane. Prime mover + artillery piece = cheaper to purchase, fuel, maintain, and repair than self-propelled artillery. If a towed arty piece's prime mover's engine/transmission/etc. dies and it's immobilized, you hook the arty piece to another prime mover and drive off. If an SP arty piece's engine/transmission/etc. dies and it's immobilized, your arty piece is immobilized too. Gen Berger has expressed a desire to reduce towed artillery in favor of self propelled. It would be nice if there was a hybrid that was SP artillery but wasn't a huge tracked vehicle like the M109. Maybe an M777 mounted on a flatbed Ask and you shall receive. Brutus https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/04/Image-1-Brutus-Mobile-Howitzer.jpg The HMMWV mounted 105mm Hawkeye is its little brother. https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/08/1l-image-Hawkeye-Mobile-Weapon-System.jpg I think both have real merit, especially considering the threat of counter battery - even more so with so many other, potentially adversary, Nations having artillery that so significantly out ranges ours. -K When Hawkeye is mounted to a JLTV, that's when you should pay attention to it. Otherwise it's just a toy. Kharn |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 7:49:26 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe the answer is yes. It does have a tow hook if I remember correctly. Don't know the towing capacity off the top of my head though. Yes. You can tow the cat or another 109 with a 109 (if need be) I spent a month once as 1-2guns atc, acting as the prime mover for fdc's broke ass 577 |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 7:55:14 PM EST
[#9]
To the rear of the piece fall out
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:02:25 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those all look nice, but I don't think the Stryker has enough ass for any of them. I am assuming whatever they pick, it is going to need to be re-mounted on an Oshkosh HEMTT or similar chassis. It should be easy but the Army could fuck up a wet dream. Oh, and it's Dem administration time, so go to mandatory classes about trannies and stuff right now, you can play with your old scary guns later.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is what we should have had back in the 80/90s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_9fl7QWGQwLot of interesting wheeled artillery that I hadn't heard of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX3RWzBRuZEThose all look nice, but I don't think the Stryker has enough ass for any of them. I am assuming whatever they pick, it is going to need to be re-mounted on an Oshkosh HEMTT or similar chassis. It should be easy but the Army could fuck up a wet dream. Oh, and it's Dem administration time, so go to mandatory classes about trannies and stuff right now, you can play with your old scary guns later. Just imagine a Stryker MGS with a taller turret to enable elevation for a 105 tube. But an MGS with a breach loaded 120mm mortar and dropping time-on-target missions by itself?  Kharn |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:18:30 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To the rear of the piece fall out No Redleg ever wants to hear that. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 8:24:53 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just imagine a Stryker MGS with a taller turret to enable elevation for a 105 tube. But an MGS with a breach loaded 120mm mortar and dropping time-on-target missions by itself? Kharn  
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:02:06 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm calling BS. Dropping a round is not going to make the rest of the crew freak out. The way the fuses are made, it would be damn near impossible to drop one and have it detonate.  I've been on a crew when a guy tripped and dropped a shell, and have seen other crews that dropped shells. It broke the fuse. None of this occurred in any of those instances, just the over-dramatic bitching that happens for every screw up in the military. I've seen shells hit by DSHK rounds and all kinds of other shit. Shells bounce around inside a truck that flipped over. They don't just go off. And there are occasions when you don't have time to put in ear pro. I lost a lot of hearing in one ear firing super 8s because I dropped an ear plug running to the gun. If it's between ear pro and getting rounds out, then rounds go out. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:16:14 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To the rear of the piece, face away from the piece, fall out. No Redleg ever wants to hear that. That is the truth. Heard that once at Ft Carson. Another unit shot out and a round went off over the mortar range. Fortunately it wasn't our unit and range was unoccupied. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 9:32:29 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M119 and M1 round have a short range. The Denel M2020 ammunition and the G7 can go 30km with base bleed. The BB screws on to the M2020 and M2019 rounds. One is an HE, one is a PFF round that is more effective than M795. But the ammunition is 80% lighter. And it fits on a Stryker chassis. Or you can jump it as a towed piece. ETA: M107 costs somewhere between $1000 and $2000 a round, not counting tube wear. Admittedly I’ve been out of that game for a decade...and I may be thinking 120mm mortar HE for the cost, but it still highlights the point that gun is far cheaper than rocket. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:18:56 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Admittedly I’ve been out of that game for a decade...and I may be thinking 120mm mortar HE for the cost, but it still highlights the point that gun is far cheaper than rocket. Absolutely. I think that is why the Army is so committed to buying new tube pieces despite advances in rocket artillery. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:20:26 PM EST
[#17]
If you draw a diagram of targets too far for a 105 to hit, targets close enough for a 155 to hit, and wars without counter battery fire how much are they going to overlap?
I remember talking to Ron about this. At a certain point you want to use rockets or aircraft to shoot, because your CEP is unacceptable and Excalibur costs even more than GMLRS. Though advances in tube artillery push that range out faster than falling costs in other systems would encourage it to shrink. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:21:31 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely. I think that is why the Army is so committed to buying new tube pieces despite advances in rocket artillery. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Admittedly I’ve been out of that game for a decade...and I may be thinking 120mm mortar HE for the cost, but it still highlights the point that gun is far cheaper than rocket. Absolutely. I think that is why the Army is so committed to buying new tube pieces despite advances in rocket artillery. Training rockets are around 4-5K each if memory serves. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:50:42 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To the rear of the piece fall out Check fire check fire Rear of the piece facing away from the piece "Oh fuck" 'Now motherfuckers, don't touch that fucking sight" |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 10:54:51 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been on a crew when a guy tripped and dropped a shell, and have seen other crews that dropped shells. It broke the fuse. None of this occurred in any of those instances, just the over-dramatic bitching that happens for every screw up in the military. I've seen shells hit by DSHK rounds and all kinds of other shit. Shells bounce around inside a truck that flipped over. They don't just go off. And there are occasions when you don't have time to put in ear pro. I lost a lot of hearing in one ear firing super 8s because I dropped an ear plug running to the gun. If it's between ear pro and getting rounds out, then rounds go out. Ntc 96 or 7, one of our ammo plt guys fucked something up and a box of fuses went off. For some reason they made ammo wear flaks, thankfully, his legs and the lower half of his arms sweared frag splinters like a porcupine for about 2 years |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 11:05:26 PM EST
[#21]
Great question OP. An apples to apples comparison of systems. I have 0 experience with either. Seen the 777s in AFG. They sit low as hell for providing such a punch!
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Posted: 2/15/2021 11:19:39 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm calling BS. Dropping a round is not going to make the rest of the crew freak out. The way the fuses are made, it would be damn near impossible to drop one and have it detonate. Short of dropping it on a landmine you are correct. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 12:28:42 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Training rockets are around 4-5K each if memory serves. Sure, something like that. GMLRS is just under $100,000 a round. Longer range missiles are 5x-10x that amount. Of course, the target sets and effects are different. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 3:22:48 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Check fire check fire Rear of the piece facing away from the piece "Oh fuck" 'Now motherfuckers, don't touch that fucking sight" Thankfully never had to do that. We fired 100% of my rounds in country (1500ish) without incident. We did watch another platoon get a proctology exam after a rounds unobserved (observer never even head them). It was a RAP fire mission at near max range and they never removed the caps on any of the six rounds fired. All fell something like 6k short on the GT line in the middle of nowhere. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 3:38:03 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To the rear of the piece, face away from the piece, fall out. No Redleg ever wants to hear that. Yep. Somebody done fucked up, and somewhere downrange, somebody got a pickle surprise. Back in the 80's, one battery in our sister Bn performed so badly at NTC that range control made them turn in their remaining ammo. Schmucks... 
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Posted: 2/16/2021 4:09:21 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryIs that 105mm? And I thought MGS was bad enough for weight and balance.  Hell, while we're at it, lets put the double-barrel NEMO on a Stryker.  Patria Amos & Nemo 120mm Advanced Mortar Systems ETA: I know 120 Strykers are already in the SBCTs, but these look more cooler and spendy, therefore we must have it.  I get that it's breech loading and protected, but I have to wonder how much mo' bettah' it is to have a turret instead of two armored doors, and two or three bubbas to operate it. And wouldn't the rounds available be way less?
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Posted: 2/16/2021 4:54:35 AM EST
[#27]
105mm howitzers and 105mm cannons have the same bore diameter and the projectiles have similar weight, but the cannon round if going 50% faster than the howitzer round with a max charge.
Mortars are cool but they don't generally have a range beyond 10km. The Denel 105 has 3x the range. As a result they are used differently. Mortars work at the company and battalion level, artillery is delegated down from the division level (they moved it back up from brigade after I left). The division has a lot more sensors that can spot a target a lot further out. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 5:15:03 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does crewing arty f your hearing as much as it seems like it would? Red Bag negates hearing protection. Pound out a Red bag&RAP platoon 4, and you're half punch drunk for 10min afterwards. A day or three of that shit, adds up. But goddamit, some shit just makes ya feel alive, and the dance with a shit hot Marine crew, is one of 'em. None of the guys I was with as an 0811/0812, have lost most upper freq. hearing, and a couple are near deaf. Shit happens. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 5:47:18 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go check out the Armenia vs. Turkey thread, or refer back to Ukraine vs. Russia videos. US Mil is also badly deficient in short range ADA, and those events have also shown that counter-battery comes in the form of not just arty or mortars, but now drone strikes or suicide drones. We aren't ready for that. No SP is as fast to deploy or displace as light towed. SP's are huge Main't whores and suck up space in the well deck. HIMARs is limited by cost, weight, and terrain. The old M101A1 could be towed by an M151 and crewed by 4. Same for the 102. Shoot and scoot closer to the FEBA with more targets for CBR to target, and leave the HIMAR's to do their thing much further back, and better protected. Near Peer pissing contests, are ugly, and attrition comes into play. A lighter,faster, longer range 05, and a revisit of a prime mover makes sense. CBR and the drones are a reality now. Doctrine has to change. Agreed. We aren't going to get there with 40K range Med&heavy's, towed or SP's. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 6:28:14 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 777 but I may be biased. The 777 is a god granted gift.... Got to play with one for a day. The Dance is tighter, and looks like monkey's fucking a football, but it's superior in every aspect, except for the poor bastards at Ordnance Maint. and lets face it, the 198 was a southern Belle in a Blizzard about temp swings, and the Pan.Tel. mount was a constant PITA, that required "other than approved" methods to maintain bore sight. The Doggy's idea of integrating Section chief data as an afterthought, was a completely stupid shit show, and was about as amphibious as a PB&J sandwich, required duct tape and Comm wire, and not getting caught modifying shit. Some Senator owed a favor to a Pentagon Rat, or that shit would have ever happened. Sound powered phones were more reliable, faster, and already paid for. The 777 is a complete package and well thought out...mostly. Until Red legs and 08's get direct input, nothing will be perfect. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 6:45:23 AM EST
[#31]
“Fire For Effect,Over”
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Posted: 2/16/2021 8:26:43 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Red Bag negates hearing protection. Pound out a Red bag&RAP platoon 4, and you're half punch drunk for 10min afterwards. A day or three of that shit, adds up. But goddamit, some shit just makes ya feel alive, and the dance with a shit hot Marine crew, is one of 'em. None of the guys I was with as an 0811/0812, have lost most upper freq. hearing, and a couple are near deaf. Shit happens. There is something both frightening and exhilarating about that massive overpressure wave. And the smell of wolf pussy... Never worked the new guns, 102, 109A3/A2 and a little work with 8 inch in my day |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 9:39:36 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is something both frightening and exhilarating about that massive overpressure wave. And the smell of wolf pussy... Never worked the new guns, 102, 109A3/A2 and a little work with 8 inch in my day  |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 9:40:15 AM EST
[#34]
I am biased toward the M102 towed in 105mm. I know it doesn't have much range but there is some utility in being able to put a near 40 pound projectile within 25 meters of your fighting position when you really really need to.
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Posted: 2/16/2021 11:32:19 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No SP is as fast to deploy or displace as light towed. SP's are huge Main't whores and suck up space in the well deck. HIMARs is limited by cost, weight, and terrain. The old M101A1 could be towed by an M151 and crewed by 4. Same for the 102. Shoot and scoot closer to the FEBA with more targets for CBR to target, and leave the HIMAR's to do their thing much further back, and better protected. Near Peer pissing contests, are ugly, and attrition comes into play. A lighter,faster, longer range 05, and a revisit of a prime mover makes sense. CBR and the drones are a reality now. Doctrine has to change. Agreed. We aren't going to get there with 40K range Med&heavy's, towed or SP's. Can you really set up and tear down a tower piece in two minutes? Total, not cumulative? |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 12:51:42 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am biased toward the M102 towed in 105mm. I know it doesn't have much range but there is some utility in being able to put a near 40 pound projectile within 25 meters of your fighting position when you really really need to. Well you could do that with a 8 inch, but you might be inside the lethal zone 
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Posted: 2/16/2021 12:52:36 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you really set up and tear down a tower piece in two minutes? Total, not cumulative? Not having to take the damn wheel off probably helps. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 1:47:28 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idk but I this my favorite marine artillery video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdO_0twP_CUWe never had the lightweights, so I cannot compare the two. The 198 with a well drilled crew was impressive. The official rate of fire was four rounds per minute, but all of our sections in ‘03 could beat that. As a practical matter the tube temperature was the limiting factor on rate of fire. This is still my favorite video. I may be biased though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8 The only serious maintenance issues we had were stress fractures at the travel lock when we transitioned to the MTVR, and the split rings deforming from an excessive diet of 8 super. For a while the crews were closing the breaches with sledgehammers. No more two man ram on the 777? Battery gunny and FAC would have had Wolfie and his section chief standing tall for that one man business. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 2:13:43 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We never had the lightweights, so I cannot compare the two. The 198 with a well drilled crew was impressive. The official rate of fire was four rounds per minute, but all of our sections in ‘03 could beat that. As a practical matter the tube temperature was the limiting factor on rate of fire. This is still my favorite video. I may be biased though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8 The only serious maintenance issues we had were stress fractures at the travel lock when we transitioned to the MTVR, and the split rings deforming from an excessive diet of 8 super. For a while the crews were closing the breaches with sledgehammers. No more two man ram on the 777? Battery gunny and FAC would have had Wolfie and his section chief standing tall for that one man business. When firing at night(like that 11th MAR vid above) what is the SOP for light around the gun? Red headlamps? I can't imagine white light is allowed, and nods(especially a single -14) don't seem ideal for most of the crew tasks. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 2:22:19 PM EST
[#40]
Anything less than 8 inch is a pop gun. lol
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Posted: 2/16/2021 3:04:36 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When firing at night(like that 11th MAR vid above) what is the SOP for light around the gun? Red headlamps? I can't imagine white light is allowed, and nods(especially a single -14) don't seem ideal for most of the crew tasks. FDC has lights, but they are in a tent with double doors. Most things on the gunline are designed so they can be done in low light. Powder charges are bagged. So you are shooting five white, seven white, etc. Rounds have the weights stamped on them so you can feel with your fingers. Recorder might have a red lens flashlight. Used only when needed, and shielded. Certainly nobody running around with a headlamp on in any battery I was ever with. Local security chief roams around enforcing light discipline, but it is everybody’s responsibility. Gun 1 makes fun of Gun 3 if they can see a light. Comm mocks Motor T. Gunline calls out the FDC. One of the reasons we encourage those kinds of rivalries. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 5:12:55 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thankfully never had to do that. We fired 100% of my rounds in country (1500ish) without incident. We did watch another platoon get a proctology exam after a rounds unobserved (observer never even head them). It was a RAP fire mission at near max range and they never removed the caps on any of the six rounds fired. All fell something like 6k short on the GT line in the middle of nowhere. All my instances were training, and the 3 time it was suspected to have been our gun it turned out to not be our fault anyway. 1 was fo error, degraded mission 1 was fdc fat fingering a digital mission, And one was the battalion commander reliving his days as an lt, reversing his points and calling fore on himself at the op. Had another go round shooting copperhead, after I suggested that we should hold off due to clouds and fog, but "the cg came to see it" 4 copperheads fired, 4 copperheads not observed. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 5:35:43 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We never had the lightweights, so I cannot compare the two. The 198 with a well drilled crew was impressive. The official rate of fire was four rounds per minute, but all of our sections in ‘03 could beat that. As a practical matter the tube temperature was the limiting factor on rate of fire. This is still my favorite video. I may be biased though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8 The only serious maintenance issues we had were stress fractures at the travel lock when we transitioned to the MTVR, and the split rings deforming from an excessive diet of 8 super. For a while the crews were closing the breaches with sledgehammers. No more two man ram on the 777? Battery gunny and FAC would have had Wolfie and his section chief standing tall for that one man business. Wolfie stands before no man! I have no idea about any of the intricacies with emplacement/firing/tear down. Only time I remember tagging along with a battery, I was helping a meteorological guy fly balloons. I believe they needed wind every 4 hours, or 2 hours? We'd get a move order, pack up the transit and sit in the humvee watching everyone do their thing, then same when we got to a new pos. It was the easiest job I've encountered in the Marines anyway, sleep for a couple hours, fly a balloon take numbers down with the transit, back to sleep. Only thing that sucked was the fucking guns would wake us up. Them, HQ FOs and survey didn't do shit. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 8:47:57 PM EST
[#44]
I'll admit right off the bat I'm biased towards rockets at this point , but I really see towed tubed artillery losing significance on the battlefield. The best analogy I can give is towed cannon are like an Uzi and a HIMARS is akin to an M16. The Uzi is inexpensive and puts out a large volume of fire at short range (155 cannon). The M16 can also put out lots of fire at shorter ranges (M26/M26A2 rockets), but can also shoot very precisely with M262 out to several hundred yards (GMLRS), or throw a 6.5 Grendel upper on and shoot really long range (ATACMS). The M16 is more expensive both in equipment and ammo but more versatile across a greater range of situations.
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Posted: 2/16/2021 9:03:39 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll admit right off the bat I'm biased towards rockets at this point , but I really see towed tubed artillery losing significance on the battlefield. The best analogy I can give is towed cannon are like an Uzi and a HIMARS is akin to an M16. The Uzi is inexpensive and puts out a large volume of fire at short range (155 cannon). The M16 can also put out lots of fire at shorter ranges (M26/M26A2 rockets), but can also shoot very precisely with M262 out to several hundred yards (GMLRS), or throw a 6.5 Grendel upper on and shoot really long range (ATACMS). The M16 is more expensive both in equipment and ammo but more versatile across a greater range of situations. Rockets aren't versatile. They can't shoot smoke or illum and they can't suppress over time. They are only useful for a first round FFE. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 9:04:18 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll admit right off the bat I'm biased towards rockets at this point , but I really see towed tubed artillery losing significance on the battlefield. The best analogy I can give is towed cannon are like an Uzi and a HIMARS is akin to an M16. The Uzi is inexpensive and puts out a large volume of fire at short range (155 cannon). The M16 can also put out lots of fire at shorter ranges (M26/M26A2 rockets), but can also shoot very precisely with M262 out to several hundred yards (GMLRS), or throw a 6.5 Grendel upper on and shoot really long range (ATACMS). The M16 is more expensive both in equipment and ammo but more versatile across a greater range of situations. I assume it eventually becomes a doctrine issue. What unit level does it take to get clearance for HIMARS fires? Battalion? Have they ever been deployed as single vics to a fob? I imagine it's a lot easier and quicker to get a tube gun into action and firing, clearance wise, than a HIMARS. Little off topic, I apologise. Genuinely curious, as arty was not my mos. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 9:30:09 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I assume it eventually becomes a doctrine issue. What unit level does it take to get clearance for HIMARS fires? Battalion? Have they ever been deployed as single vics to a fob? I imagine it's a lot easier and quicker to get a tube gun into action and firing, clearance wise, than a HIMARS. Little off topic, I apologise. Genuinely curious, as arty was not my mos. Everything has to be cleared. Battlefield is divided up into sectors. If you want to shoot in your own sector you can. If you want to shoot in somebody else’s sector it needs to be cleared. If you want to shoot across somebody else’s sector into a third sector, it needs to be cleared by both. Batteries are the smallest unit for tube artillery because you have to have a certain amount of support. One cannon by itself is practically useless. It needs ammunition. It needs communication. It needs trucks. It needs mechanics to fix the trucks. It needs guys with calculators to figure out where to point it before pulling the lanyard. It needs surveyors or at least officers with crude location and direction finding ability to give the guys with calculators information so they can do the calculation correctly. All of that support for one gun would be dumb. So we usually stick half a dozen of them together. Rockets are no different. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 10:30:07 PM EST
[#48]
In an army with the most advanced NV and thermal capabilities in the world, I don't believe the advantage of being able to shoot smoke and illum, even IR illum, outweighs the capability to shoot multiple targets simultaneously with a single launcher at triple the max range of cannon and hit each one within a couple of meters.
As for operational capability, most recently we've seen HIMARS deployed as 2 launcher sections in Iraq and Syria. Similar sized elements were used by cannon in Afghanistan and to a lesser extent in Iraq. The difference is the range and capabilities of a 2 launcher HIMARS section versus a cannon section or platoon. One 2 launcher HIMARS section can cover everything in a 90km radius with GMLRS, and do it precisely. So you need far fewer launchers to cover far more terrain. That is more efficient and on a large scale combat battlefield, more survivable. The big disadvantage of rockets is airspace clearance due to their max ord exceeding the coordinating altitude usually allowed to be managed by the army. There are ways to overcome this, and their is some work being done to build better digital linkages between the air force and army to expedite the process. |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 10:34:09 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everything has to be cleared. Battlefield is divided up into sectors. If you want to shoot in your own sector you can. If you want to shoot in somebody else’s sector it needs to be cleared. If you want to shoot across somebody else’s sector into a third sector, it needs to be cleared by both. Batteries are the smallest unit for tube artillery because you have to have a certain amount of support. One cannon by itself is practically useless. It needs ammunition. It needs communication. It needs trucks. It needs mechanics to fix the trucks. It needs guys with calculators to figure out where to point it before pulling the lanyard. It needs surveyors or at least officers with crude location and direction finding ability to give the guys with calculators information so they can do the calculation correctly. All of that support for one gun would be dumb. So we usually stick half a dozen of them together. Rockets are no different. Should have clarified a bit. What's the lowest unit size HIMARS has been split into? Asking because like in the instance CMS posted above where he only had two 155s, and one 105 at a fob, I don't see rockets ever replacing that role. As you stated they aren't comparable when you get into harassing fires/illum etc. Edit: answered above |
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Posted: 2/16/2021 10:48:20 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In an army with the most advanced NV and thermal capabilities in the world, I don't believe the advantage of being able to shoot smoke and illum, even IR illum, outweighs the capability to shoot multiple targets simultaneously with a single launcher at triple the max range of cannon and hit each one within a couple of meters. Quote HistoryQuoted: In an army with the most advanced NV and thermal capabilities in the world, I don't believe the advantage of being able to shoot smoke and illum, even IR illum, outweighs the capability to shoot multiple targets simultaneously with a single launcher at triple the max range of cannon and hit each one within a couple of meters. Different things. It's like comparing sniper rifles and shotguns. Quoted: As for operational capability, most recently we've seen HIMARS deployed as 2 launcher sections in Iraq and Syria. Similar sized elements were used by cannon in Afghanistan and to a lesser extent in Iraq. The difference is the range and capabilities of a 2 launcher HIMARS section versus a cannon section or platoon. One 2 launcher HIMARS section can cover everything in a 90km radius with GMLRS, and do it precisely. So you need far fewer launchers to cover far more terrain. That is more efficient and on a large scale combat battlefield, more survivable. You need an FDC for control and maintenance personnel. You can't split them four ways unless you ratfuck a BN to put a smaller unit together. I deployed in a battery that had a bunch of people from HHB and the FSC to make it work. Quoted: The big disadvantage of rockets is airspace clearance due to their max ord exceeding the coordinating altitude usually allowed to be managed by the army. There are ways to overcome this, and their is some work being done to build better digital linkages between the air force and army to expedite the process. Depends on a lot of things. There's a reason MLRS units have a target list while the ATO spins up. |
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