I know we’ve bumped heads a time or two on this forum, but some day I’d really love to sit down with you, have a few beers, and exchange Garrett stories.

My point was you lumped them together wrong.

Company - O1-O3
Field O4-O6

"It is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission" Navy saying.

Dear diary,

Today I learned I am retarded because I was a field grade officer who graduated from a service academy.

It's a sad day.

These threads are always full of "show me on the doll where the bad officer touched you"

These be the smart guys...

"I knew this officer who xxxxxxx!"

Yeah. Sure.

Want to hear my stories about enlisted? I've got plenty, including two separate incest stories resulting in children. Maybe some here don't think that's dumb, or a lack of smarts.

I'll also go out on a limb and say that pretty much the entire "I knew this dumb Academy grad..." was based off of watching Heartbreak Ridge once or twice.

In general, Academy grads...are very much so like every other officer from other commissioning sources. I would say that there is a higher likelihood for much higher intelligence if forced to make a blind choice.

I have met many intelligent enlisted, and many that are almost too dumb to function. There is little improvement in intelligence as the enlisted (or officer) ranks get higher.

The absolute best and absolute worse officers I worked for/with were prior enlisted. Some in the middle, but I knew more epic shitheaded mustangs than awesome ones, and I know quite a few awesome ones.

I'm also not sure how I made it to the Academy as an upper lower class/lower middle class guy, either. Apparently that's reserved for rich guys. If someone could mail my privilege to me, I would appreciate it.

I'd say the top 15-20% of enlisted compares favorably with commissioned officers when it comes to intelligence. The percentage of enlisted vs commissioned rises dramatically when it comes to aptitude in actually doing something other than pushing papers. As for a prior poster saying that people going enlisted and not wanting to be in command shows lower intelligence, lol. I've known people who went in enlisted to work on specialized equipment and then get out and make a nice fat paycheck. I've also seen the ladder climbers on my old police department who were actually dumber than shit when it came to making rational common sense decisions. Just because one doesn't have the ego that drives them to command others it doesn't mean they are less intelligent.

This isn’t a humblebrag, but it may sound like it. I’ve never considered myself a very competent person, but I’ve never understood what is supposed to be difficult about land nav. It’s held up like this pinnacle of complexity, but I’ve always found it to be pretty straightforward. I guess it isn’t, goodness knows I’ve seen tons of people do fucking bizarre shit on land nav courses.

To me it's sad.  I know I was fortunate to never have those experiences.  My first unit I had a fantastic SNCO and awesome Capt. Both magnificent leaders. I would do anything they asked of me, no hesitation.  
I hope the Capt is still in, though I doubt it since that was '96.  I'd still follow him to hell on foot if he asked.

As I noted, my Professor of Military Science (the head of the Army ROTC battalion, for those not familiar with the terminology) was a West Point grad, I have it on good authority that he was given that position as his last chance to save his career.  For the first few months, he tried to be involved.  After that, he quit getting involved and retreated to his office and sold Tupperware during the day (his wife was a regional distributor or somesuch).

Example 1:  He gave cadets permission to bring personally owned firearms to a military firing range.  (of course, he thought he was going to demonstrate how good a pistol shooter he was, he quit bragging about it after a number of us demonstrated we were better shots).
Example 2:  When the brigade commander came down to spend a few days with our battalion, and went to PT with us, said PMS peeled off the run after less than half a mile, he later claimed he ran his own route; nobody believed him.  One of the TAC officers made a comment about taking his PT test with a #2 pencil.
Example 3:  I had a problem child cadet.  He was on scholarship, but would frequently miss PT and flag detail when I was the platoon leader, so he would get frequent phone calls from me.  So he went to the cadet company commander who responded "Waah".  Same for the cadet battalion XO.  Same for the cadet battalion commander.  Same for the TAC officer, except the TAC officer told him if he didn't start participating to standard, he'd lose his scholarship and get booted from the program.  So he went to the PMS, who apologized for how mean we were all being and promised it would stop.  And made said problem child a platoon leader the next year.  When said problem child went to Advanced Camp, he was such a shit-show that he was well on his way to earning a heretofore theoretical "1" for his camp score, when instead he quit at the beginning at the final week of camp.

I know another academy grad who makes reference to not being promoted with his peers as to why he left the Army, he's not old enough to have been up for Major, since he just turned 30 and has been out of the Army for several years (in fact, looking on LinkedIn, he was in just over five years and does not list the Captain's Course as a school, and there are no gaps in assignments adequate to having gone to it).

So while I know some outstanding WP grads, there are definitely some that don't excel in the Army later.

Yeah we all have known some shit bags.

Fwiw personally owned weapons on military ranges is highly dependent on the range regs. It's allowed some places.

But not taking them on post without clearance from the provost marshal...

I did 5 years in the submarine force and got out in 2007 during the beginnings of social networking. I've kept in touch with a significant percentage of my shipmates on my boat through FB friends and groups.

I would say that the simple majority of officers came from a "privileged" background of some sort. A family with long traditions of military service, or otherwise wealthier upper middle class upbringings.

Enlisted were a mixed bag of backwoods rednecks, average joe's and had a few millionaires amongst the ranks who just wanted to serve after 911. None of those social standings were indicative of intelligence though.

Here's the kicker, 12 years after getting out and watching all my buddies get out of all ranks, go to college, start careers and families - well, everyone pretty much has equal outcomes. Most everyone is doing fine. Some might make more, but it's rather petty.

Entrepreneurship - business ownership seems to be much more popular amongst former enlisted, as well as engineering and high paying skilled/technical jobs.

Officers who separated go on to management jobs, silicon valley type jobs or take over the family business.

Enlisted seems to have a higher percentage of dildos who do nothing with their life once separating, but that percentage is still small overall.

I've also done 2 Army deployments after separating from active duty and joining the Reserves. Some of the smartest cats I've worked with were Army enlisted, so not limiting my experience to the small percentage of those who qualify for sub duty.

I'm not going to argue who is smarter, but will say this. There are very few 18 year olds just getting out of HS that know what they want to be when they grow up. Their brains aren't fully developed yet. 4 years or so to figure some stuff out and grow up a little is a very smart career choice vs. making a very expensive 4 year long tuition mistake without any adult experience. I think the men and women who join right out of high school are at an advantage because they get a unstoppable spirit that stays with them throughout life (19 year olds trusted with lives and millions in property) while their peers are working BS jobs back home. This gives them the energy to put considerable effort into succeeding more, starting those businesses and working those challenging tech jobs.

The officers are more concerned with working their way up the system, one rung at a time, never really stepping outside of bounds.

Not everybody. But generally speaking.

These threads are very entertaining

OP

It is all relative.  A typical enlisted USAF aircraft maintainer is much more intelligent than a typical public affairs officer while the typical fighter pilot is on average smarter than both of them.

That stated I have seen fighter pilots do some really dumb shit.

The DOD ASVAB is considered a very good IQ and aptitude test it helps ensure total idiots don't get in and people get put in jobs best suited to there abilities.  If you score well on the ASVAB you aren't an idiot but you may still do idiotic things.

As others have stated, officers are better educated and lets face it, probably more motivated to lead and improve their lot in life at the front end as opposed to the wide spectrum of enlisted.  Degrees run anywhere from liberal arts to mathematics and science, to business and economics and everything in between.  Not all enlisted have the motivation, discipline, or G2 to earn a degree to begin with.  A commission is not for the lazy, even though a few losers do slip through the cracks now and again.

As for service academy grads; good officers are where you find them.  For Marine Officers, the USNA doesn't have a monopoly on effective commissioned leaders by any stretch.  Most of the Marine Officers commissioned from the USNA I've worked with or for have been very good.  OTOH, one of the absolute worst fucking POS officers I ever encountered in my 24 years was from Annapolis.  That's one Officer Of Marines out of countless good ones that stand out in my mind, so that's not bad.

In the nuke navy, I see FAR more arrogance coming out of the chiefs than the officers.

IMO, the officer/enlisted divide is much more about maturity than being "smart".

Depends on the base. Some bases you are wrong, if you're headed to the range and not storing them on base.

ETA- I'm not saying this guy you knew was right, I don't know. I'm just saying it's not as black and white as you think and maybe he was right, or maybe he was wrong but had a good reason to think he was right based on previous experiences.

The main problem we have with regards to the whole idea of IQ testing is that we think we're testing for something we're not--Virtue and wisdom. You do well on a test, that means you can do well on that test; it isn't a proxy for what kind of human you are, or how well you can manage daily life.

I can post in GD.

hahaha

There’s no IQ limitations to be in GD.  I’ve tested it.

LOL.

Pensacola from Jan 05'-Jun 05' for the A school ( aviation electronics technician "intermediate level"). C school was NEC 6703 & 6704. I ended up having to stay in basic training for three extra weeks because hurricane Ivan fucked up p-cola really bad. My common core electronics courses we're moved to NTC Great Lakes with the surface side electronic techs (ET).

Wanna know how I know I'm a fucking dinosaur???  LOL  I graduated from AV "C" in '85, then graduated from DS "C" in '92.

DS?  Not many of those left.

Whenever I find out a "new guy" in the company is a former military office I always smile and ask them if they know the one thing everyone dreads to hear at O-dark thirty in the swamp?  That whispered comment that comes down the line from up front, "The Lt. is taking over the patrol."  That is when you know you are truly up shit creek.

Yup.  CSTSC at MINSY, while attached to MCSF Bn.  My "Navy Rate" from AV "C" was AQ.

If some one was going to shoot at you for a living, would you want to be paid more or less?

When did the navy start being forgiving? True, asking is easier but getting it is definitely not in the stars.

This discussion is not new but the conclusion is the same: Everyone has a job to do, some do it better than others. Some should have never had the job. Thus is the conclusion even after centuries of useless discussion.

I was enlisted so I have no problem saying this. There was a thing in the Navy that was referred to as “enlisted mentality.”

Here are some examples....

There were some absolute dumbfuck enlisted guys on my 2 ships. Guys that intentionally smoked pot to get kicked out. I would love it when they would say, “ Walt Disney and David Lee Roth were  kicked out of the Navy and they did fine” I would reply by asking them, “can you draw or sing?”  Guys that would fall dead asleep on watch while deployed in the Gulf. Guys in bars where there was 2 hookers and 25 drink sailors that all though the hookers wanted them.... so a fight would break out.

I was the LPO of a small group of guys (EW’s)  Prior to pulling into port in Phuket, Thailand  I had all of my guys read and initial a Rolling Stone article titled Death in a Candy Store (I think) it was about the HIV rate among hookers in Thailand. Ship pulled into Thailand and 2 of the 6 guys screwed hookers WITHOUT A CONDOM. 3 other guys from CIC (OS’s) missed ships movement.

One guy paid a Philippino street vendor $125 American dollars for a little plastic cart with a ceramic vase on it. It was about 6 inches long. The vendor was talking peso’s but the dumbfuck E-4 thought she was talking dollars

I could go on and on

I was never lumped in this generalization because I pretty much kept my shit together. E-6 in 5 years. I got out at 6 years and went to college. That was my plan all along. I pretty much got along with officers and enlisted alike.

I know a personnel clerk working on his PhD, and I know several enlisted dudes with law degrees.

All the papers I have to write for work are submitted electronically, and run through a site called Turn It In, which compares it against other papers and flags plagerism.

100% certain that didn't exist in 1997.

Reminds of that book "Once an Eagle" by Anton Myrer ...Sam Elliot- made for TV Mini series for non readers...

Even fewer Marines.

I went through in 96 right after they moved it to Great Lakes.

if its based on intelligence I would say yes,, is smarter,, like smarter at their mos?

Damn bro.

If we're playing "I can top that...", during the mid-1980s I had a guy in my company at Fort Sill who was a Heavy Equipment Operator. Since he'd come in as a Specialist, we all knew he had some college, and since he was in his early thirties, we all just... Assumed it was a bachelor's degree in something.

Good dude, little out of place--Interesting to talk to, because he knew all the classics, was obviously very well educated. All he was interested in was running, and operating his bulldozer. He loved moving earth, and he wasn't that good at it, at first, but he worked hard, and always wanted to learn. He'd be out on civilian jobsites whenever he could, looking at what they were doing, talking to the operators, asking questions.

He was with us for about a year, and we got in a new Second Lieutenant. Didn't pay much attention to it, because he was a line platoon guy, and Dennis, the equipment operator, was over in Heavy Junk. Took a couple of weeks for them to run into each other, and for the LT to really look at Dennis's face and/or hear his voice, at which point he pretty much freaked: Our guy Dennis was his former adjunct professor from the private university he went to, back east. Subject he taught was like ancient history, or something like that, and he'd been really well-respected by the students, had (supposedly) run digs for the university all through the Middle East, and all that--He was on tenure track, the way I remember hearing it all.

Then, his life blew up after his wife had an affair with the department head at the university, he got "let go", and when he "reacted poorly" to the situation, he got blackballed by the academic community. Ran out of money, no job prospects outside academia, and he got to thinking about what else he could do with his life (after a monumental bender...), and thought of how much he'd enjoyed operating heavy equipment at archaeological dig sites, soooo... Army Recruiting, here I come.

None of this was known to the LT, of course; all he knew, was his favorite professor had disappeared from campus, and he never heard what the details were.

Ya could say things were a bit... Awkward. They kept trying to get Dennis to go to OCS, but he decided that BS wasn't for him, he was done with politics, and he was returning to his blue-collar roots. The officers kept trying to work him in, socially, but he wanted nothing to do with it, remaining steadfastly in the barracks as an enlisted guy.

Which, when you consider the Ph.D, and his former status as a tenure-track Ivy League-level professor, well... It was odd. Had some really out-of-round conversations with him on late-night duties, too, lemme tell you. There's nothing like getting deep-level analysis on Greek Mythology from a guy whose dissertation was on the verified historical facts which we have that line up with the myths...

My take, after all that...? Don't ever underestimate what you're going to find in the ranks, because there are some folks who simply do not conform to stereotype out there, at all.

If a perspective from a foreign military is allowed -

I've known some catastrophically bad officers in my time, many of them with good degrees from Oxbridge schools.
There was always a general sense of 'How did they get this far' - but a certain level of stupidity has always been tolerated at Sandhurst, and it's not so much as a lack of academic ability but a level of self absorption and being unaware of anything outside their previous experience.

There are always a certain number of desk jobs and stores admins needed though.
In my experience, as long as these types are kept away from teeth arms it's a tolerable situation, but they do slip through occasionally.

As a young officer, sergeants and corporals steered me through a minefield of Shiite and gave me a world of unearned knowledge - there were quite a few of my fellows who found it hard to accept good advice.

But more/less intelligent?, educationally there is a gap, at least in the Army I know, but there isn't an intelligence gap.

My Take...
Are they Smarter (officers)… I want them to be... and from my 21 years.. most were... sure the LT's were new and green and did dumb shit, but there suppose to...
Once they had a sharp Plt Sgt to take them in and teach them, they made good Cpt's.
Most Majors and Up I knew were sharp and knew there business...

I like to use Lt Winters from BoB's as a good example of an officer who was technically and tactically proficient.. and applied the 3 M's of leadership... (Mission/Men/Myself)

Sure, were there some Cpt Sobels's and Lt Dykes??? always are, but there were enough Lt Compton's, Welch's and Speir's to offset them.

Not sure how smart they are now a days...

Here's a case study from GD--

Hmmm...



Almost have to wonder if that guy is okay.

My personal experience -
Most low time junior officers and enlisted are dumber than a box of rocks.

You can teach them stuff -
"LTJG, press that button, a light comes on and you'll get a treat."
"Airman Recruit, fill up the container with treats, then flip the switch to test and press it to make sure the light comes on."

I found that the majority of the biggest dumbasses come from the enlisted ranks while the biggest dumbassed mistakes come from the officer ranks.

I have known officers and enlisted who have master degrees and yet they could not troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper sack.

I have known officers who had BA's in underwater basket weaving and enlisted who didn't pass high school and yet they were the smartest people I have known.

I'm enlisted with a degree, some of the kids i went through basic and AIT with also had degrees and ran the gamut on the spectrum of stupidity
i think it more depends on what experiences you have in life, officers generally have more time in the real world to experience things while Joe is in the motor pool