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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:18:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pops worked on the F4 fantom in the Marines. Had a ton of great stories. Just never heard of leaking fluid being normal, and yes I know jack shit myself about aircraft maintenance. Learn something new everyday. The F-8 Crusader was a naval aircraft used principally during Vietnam. It had a variable wing that lifted for takeoff for increased lift Ground crew knew to look for a liberal amount of hydraulic fluid leaked on the AFT fuselage, which was normal. @xFOXHOUNDx |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:18:42 PM EDT
[#2]
RIP to the flyers. One (or both) of them wasn't where he was supposed to be, and I'm sure none of them expected to die today.
Tragic. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:20:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know shits fucked up when the infantry have better odds of survival. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was in one once. For those who never have, here is the WWII scenario. It is a large soup can. No more protection than that. Just about anything could go right through it. Take you up to 30,000 feet where it is colder than you have ever been, with an open window and a hurricane wind. Then there are a whole bunch of other planes flying around shooting at you, trying their best to kill you. Nope. Nope. Nope. Ain't a lot of people with the balls for that. You know shits fucked up when the infantry have better odds of survival. It really was an entire extra front opened up in the ETO, long before 6/6/44. Lot of casualties. (Nothing compared to the Eastern Front of course, or the China/Japan component of WW2, but a lot all the same.) Very brave people all around. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:23:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryGo ruin your state some more and please stay out of this thread. This is beyond painful for multiple people here . |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:23:36 PM EDT
[#5]
From the WSJ
 Attached FileNo other new information that I noticed in the article https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-world-war-ii-era-planes-collide-at-texas-airshow-11668289019 |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:24:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Looking at all the flight tracks, there was no consistent altitude for either the larger or smaller planes each pass. The smaller planes were consistently running tighter turns between passes. The pass prior to the one with the crash the small planes were higher.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:24:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know emotions are high right now but he just commented about an oil leak. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Auto mechanic? 21+years of Military aircraft maintenance plus 14 years as an Aircrewman. 45+ years in aviation related fields. Now it's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS you know jack shit about aircraft, aircraft mechanics or have a sense of humor. Exactly. Stow the fangs and breathe before hitting submit. Redirected anger and aggression like that doesn’t reflect well on anyone. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:26:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go ruin your state some more and please stay out of this thread. This is beyond painful for multiple people here . Please accept my apology for my posts. If I could edit the quotes I would. As per your request I am out. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:27:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Kind of reminds me of those highways that meet not at 90 degree angles and people can approach in each others blind spot.
It looked like the B17 was turning more abruptly than the 63 but he could not see it. And the 63 lost the 17 as he was banking and it was under his cowl. Terrible. Feel sorry for all involved and who witnessed it. 
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:28:40 PM EDT
[#10]
  
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:29:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Shit
Terrible loss of life and history I don't think I've met any of the current Texas Raiders aircrew or support. Growing up I got to climb all through the Raiders B17. (Never got to go up, though) My Great Aunt Netha was a fixture in that bomber's support volunteers for decades. Wearing her flight suit into her 80s and sitting on hot tarmacs educating kids about the aircraft. My son is named after her husband. This model was next to my desk in the corner of my eye when I first heard about this.  Sad, terrible day. Praying for the families and crew. Rest in peace. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:31:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking at all the flight tracks, there was no consistent altitude for either the larger or smaller planes each pass. The smaller planes were consistently running tighter turns between passes. The pass prior to the one with the crash the small planes were higher. Even if the de-confliction plan is to use altitude, the air boss can "audible" allowing the fighters to come down into the bomber track for passes if it looks clear. Again, I don't know what the de-confliction plan was, so it is impossible to know right now who was out of position. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:33:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Utterly devastating. I feel so awful for the victims, including the pilot of the P-63. He fucked up, but he didn’t head out there to do this recklessly or anything. It’s just an awful, awful (and unfortunately foreseeable) mistake. I doubt those on the B-17 even had enough time to comprehend what had happened, aside from an “oh shit” and frantic attempts to right the aircraft.
I’m really sad for CAF too. They’ve had the B-17 since like the 70s, iirc. I know I’ve seen the plane before myself, and those guys just loved it. Not only did they lose friends and maybe family in this, but they lost the aircraft. My grandfather flew 35 missions in the European theater as PIC on a B-17. He loved the airplane. I miss him all the time, but I’m glad he wasn’t alive to see this. It would have made him really, really sad for any number of reasons, and I’m sure it would have triggered flashbacks. I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if the owners of most of the surviving airworthy examples of both planes decide to ground them after this. Certainly seeing a P-63 take flight was already incredibly rare, but I bet that seeing a B-17 in the air from this point on is going to get comparably rare as well. Between this and the one a few years ago with the paying passengers on board, I’m not sure how you keep them in the air any longer realistically. Just a really, really sad day all around. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:34:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was the earlier youtube video that went private, guess they bought the rights. poor kids. That or Channel 8 in Dallas put a copyright strike on them. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:34:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Damn… such sorrow for the families and for OP the others who witnessed such a tragedy.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:35:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone tell me thats not a red helmet to the left of the traffic cone? It looks like it might be.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:36:29 PM EDT
[#17]
The Texas Raiders accrued 3,257 hours of flying time over the Pacific before the aircraft was retired. It would be repeatedly sold before landing in the hands of the Commemorative Air Force, who bought it for $50,000.
  B-17s were most commonly used in daytime raids over Germany in WWII as well as causing havoc on enemy shipping in the Pacific. The most popular of the B-17 bombers, the famed B-17F Memphis Belle, was the first heavy bomber to return to the US after flying 25 missions over Europe. The Memphis Belle became one of the most iconic symbols of WWII and was portrayed in the 1990s film of the same name, which is a fictionalized account of its last mission in 1943. Memphis Belle gunners were credited with shooting down eight German fighters - and another five probable kills. Paul Martin, a member of the Army Air Forces Historical Association, described the B-17 as a 'tractor-trailer truck,' large enough to carry a crew of 10 or 11 people. According to US records, there are about 40 surviving B-17 bombers in the nation, with only five deemed 'airworthy.' The Texas Raiders plane involved in Saturday's crash was among the five. The rest of the B-17 bombers are either on display across the country or are in storage or undergoing restoration. THE BELL P-63 KINGCOBRA The Bell P-63 Kingcobra was an American fighter aircraft developed by the Bell Aircraft company during World War II. About 3,305 P-63s were built by Bell, but it was not accepted for combat use by the US Air Force, who instead gave about two-thirds of the planes away to the Soviet Air Force. The plane type saw success in the Soviet Union due to its excellent performance at low altitudes, which was where most aerial battles in Eastern Europe were taking place. The planes have a maximum speed of 410 mph at 25,000 ft. The P-63 planes are rare, with only 14 aircraft known to have survived around the world. Four are located in the US, including the one owned by the Commemorative Air Force used in Saturday's incident. Link |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:37:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: including the pilot of the P-63. He fucked up, but he didn’t head out there to do this recklessly or anything. . I don't think there is enough information yet to know who erred. Yes, it is always the responsibility of all pilots to clear their flight paths, but we don't know anything other than that. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:46:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holey moley. that's bad when you can't see a big ol' bomber. fuck... Angle, ground clutter and lighting. We have people struggle to get heavies that are way bigger in sight. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:49:06 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holey moley. that's bad when you can't see a big ol' bomber. fuck... When it is under your aircraft, it is really tough to see it...especially if you're not expecting one to be there. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:49:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this something they would rehearse before the show or is it just a “know where you’re supposed to be” thing? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: the p-63's flight track makes me think as a fast mover he jumped in the pattern on final while descending. in video he's cutting it short a bit. Is this something they would rehearse before the show or is it just a “know where you’re supposed to be” thing? Not rehearse per se, but you brief and are assigned a block of altitude. There is a hard deck, then each group is assigned an altitude. We always zeroed our altimeters to avoid math mistakes. Then you briefed flight order. Each pilot usually wrote all this down. Pilots kept the order until cleared to land. The most I flew always 5 aircraft per altitude assignment. I’ve thrown away all my briefing notes. Would be interesting to reread. I would also write the info on my window in Wax pencil just like the FACs did. Radio freqs, altimeter assignments, emergency info. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:50:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Angle, ground clutter and lighting. We have people struggle to get heavies that are way bigger in sight. You're not lying. I've occasionally had trouble spotting RJs and slightly larger aircraft even when their position is called out by ATC, if they are below the horizon. Now paint it a somewhat camouflaged color. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:52:50 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:54:19 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:58:06 PM EDT
[#25]
 
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:58:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Very sad
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:59:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Such a heartbreaking loss on so many levels. These guys absolutely love what they do and, regardless of mistakes, people like me and others in this forum aren't qualified to shine their boots.
For all the idiots on this forum that are so desperate to make it about you. Just stop. Heartbreaking for the organization as well. They work so hard to keep history tangible for so many others. They have to balance out the loss of their friends as well as the loss of history. I can't imagine how the other surviving pilots of that flight felt or what was going through their heads as they had to continue on and safely land their aircraft. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:01:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/11/13/01/64484913-11420933-While_one_plane_completely_erupted_on_fire_the_piece_of_another_-a-32_1668303587061.jpg https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/11/13/01/64484907-11420933-Pictured_The_fiery_explosion_that_followed_the_devastating_crash-a-38_1668303587496.jpg https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/11/13/01/64485313-11420933-Black_smoke_from_the_crash_bellowed_upwards_as_spectators_looked-a-33_1668303587073.jpg Imagine being one of the other performers and trying to focus on checklists and safely landing knowing a bunch of your friends you had coffee with that morning are dead.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:02:59 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go ruin your state some more and please stay out of this thread. This is beyond painful for multiple people here . Quote HistoryQuoted: Go ruin your state some more and please stay out of this thread. This is beyond painful for multiple people here . In Russia? |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:03:07 AM EDT
[#30]
Fucking sucks for everyone involved from the guys who died to the people who like the shows
Maybe from this they can implement some god damn procedures to stop this in the future |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:05:08 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe from this they can implement some god damn procedures to stop this in the future There is already a lot of well-thought our procedure that prevents this stuff. It only works if it is properly implemented and flown by the people participating. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:11:22 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Texas Raiders was based very close to me in Conroe. I am thankful I had the privilege to crawl all through her at an open house there a few years ago. I am deeply saddened by the news and mourn for her, her crew, and any possible passengers. Ironically, I put on a Texas Raiders t-shirt this morning before anything happened. I will miss the sound of her flying over the house, and the occasional glimps of history. All of those that perished are are more important than machines, and will be in my prayers. I do believe it was the Texas Raiders that I crawled around in as a little boy many years ago. That plane, along with the USS Lexington and others is what inspired my history fascination. God rest their souls. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:12:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is already a lot of well-thought our procedure that prevents this stuff. It only works if it is properly implemented and flown by the people participating. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Maybe from this they can implement some god damn procedures to stop this in the future There is already a lot of well-thought our procedure that prevents this stuff. It only works if it is properly implemented and flown by the people participating. Finding people who can follow procedure is part of the procedure |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:13:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Angle, ground clutter and lighting. We have people struggle to get heavies that are way bigger in sight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Holey moley. that's bad when you can't see a big ol' bomber. fuck... Angle, ground clutter and lighting. We have people struggle to get heavies that are way bigger in sight. Kinda had a real general idea it's hard to see anything that's not directly in front of you with that big engine in front of you and I'm shocked that they weren't lost in those big dogfights with frequency from colliding. Damn. Then moving fast... sucks to be moving too fast to fix it when you see the problem |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:14:27 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOMG
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:15:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Edited Damn thats rough to watch |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:17:50 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When it is under your aircraft, it is really tough to see it...especially if you're not expecting one to be there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Holey moley. that's bad when you can't see a big ol' bomber. fuck... When it is under your aircraft, it is really tough to see it...especially if you're not expecting one to be there. yeah, from the second or third clip you can see him approaching fast a bit above. Field of view must suck for everything not at eye level and above not to catch a glimpse of it shortly before impact. Kewl planes but what a fucking complication |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:18:26 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Finding people who can follow procedure is part of the procedure I think you're going to find out there were other human errors going on here related to bad judgment calls, and not anyone intentionally not following a procedure. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:19:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you're going to find out there were other human errors going on here related to bad judgment calls, and not anyone intentionally not following a procedure. Flying an aircraft known for 80 years to have bad visibility in close proximity to other aircraft is probably on that list. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:21:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Sick to my stomach thinking about it.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:22:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Finding people who can follow procedure is part of the procedure Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe from this they can implement some god damn procedures to stop this in the future There is already a lot of well-thought our procedure that prevents this stuff. It only works if it is properly implemented and flown by the people participating. Finding people who can follow procedure is part of the procedure People can follow procedures but a position miscalculation and/or timing/speed error can land you in a bad spot. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:25:15 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think there is enough information yet to know who erred. Yes, it is always the responsibility of all pilots to clear their flight paths, but we don't know anything other than that. You’re right of course. At the same time, I didn’t see any evidence of malfunction, like a jammed elevator or anything. It’s pretty obvious to me that he never saw the bomber. The trouble is that while maybe it wasn’t rehearsed, it is a coordinated event. The pilots are told in the briefings what to expect, ie. where the other planes are supposed to be. Before the left hand turn was made, the pilot of the P-63 should have eye-balled the B-17. He knew it was supposed to be there and I know he was above it, but you’ve gotta make sure that you’re not cutting it off. It would have been right in front of him, or off to his right side if he checked. Eye-ball it, then coordinate the turn appropriately. Even if you can’t see what’s underneath you when banking, you ensure that you maintain separation by not putting yourself in the position of cutting off or cutting too close to an airplane on a converging flight path. Lord knows, I know there’s a LOT going on during these events. Lots of moving parts + concentration required to fly the old plane + airspeed + distractions…that can all lead to error. But he didn’t hit a little silver fighter, which might be easy to miss against the sky when scanning before the turn. He missed a fairly large bomber painted in army green that should have stuck out like a sore thumb from a mile away. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he fucked up. I’m not pinning it all on him as though to condemn him, but it’s not unfair to say he made a catastrophic, unintentional mistake that cost lives. People do that all the time, unfortunately. Doesn’t me they aren’t competent or are bad people or should be crucified over it. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:26:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Flying an aircraft known for 80 years to have bad visibility in close proximity to other aircraft is probably on that list. C'mon, the guys in these airplanes aren't newbies. These are airplanes they have a lot of time in and plenty of experience flying them in airshows. That being said, experience is not an inoculation to error. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:28:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s pretty obvious to me that he never saw the bomber. The trouble is that while maybe it wasn’t rehearsed, it is a coordinated event. The pilots are told in the briefings what to expect, ie. where the other planes are supposed to be. Yes, and that's why it is too early to say who screwed up. None of us were at the air boss briefing, and none of us can say who exactly was supposed to be where. it is entirely possible the P-63 was where he was allowed to be, and the B-17 wasn't. Don't forget that there is an airboss who is quarterbacking the entire show, and clearing guys to be places....and we don't know what he may or may not have directed. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:29:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, and that's why it is too early to say who screwed up. None of us were at the air boss briefing, and none of us can say who exactly was supposed to be where. it is entirely possible the P-63 was where he was allowed to be, and the B-17 wasn't. Don't forget that there is an airboss who is quarterbacking the entire show, and clearing guys to be places....and we don't know what he may or may not have directed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s pretty obvious to me that he never saw the bomber. The trouble is that while maybe it wasn’t rehearsed, it is a coordinated event. The pilots are told in the briefings what to expect, ie. where the other planes are supposed to be. Yes, and that's why it is too early to say who screwed up. None of us were at the air boss briefing, and none of us can say who exactly was supposed to be where. it is entirely possible the P-63 was where he was allowed to be, and the B-17 wasn't. Don't forget that there is an airboss who is quarterbacking the entire show, and clearing guys to be places....and we don't know what he may or may not have directed. VFR? |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:29:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, and that's why it is too early to say who screwed up. None of us were at the air boss briefing, and none of us can say who exactly was supposed to be where. it is entirely possible the P-63 was where he was allowed to be, and the B-17 wasn't. Don't forget that there is an airboss who is quarterbacking the entire show, and clearing guys to be places....and we don't know what he may or may not have directed. Fair enough, point taken The comms could be pretty revealing. Probably a good thing they haven’t been disseminated though. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:29:42 AM EDT
[#47]
@MudEagle, after the mid-air collision and crash, what is normally the plan for the other aircraft in the sky?
Are there designated nearby airports to which they divert and land? |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:30:02 AM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:30:53 AM EDT
[#49]
just watched the history of all of the flight paths for this afternoon on ADSPExchange, it was a mess of spaghetti, no set flight paths. I'm not sure if that is the way CAF do their shows, but it just seemed unorganized.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:31:44 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: VFR? No. In FAA-waivered airspace under FAA order 8900 vol 3 chapter 6. |
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