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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:10:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Today I learned that banner advertising was still a thing. Thought it had mostly died out except for the occasional political sign. And that's how we know you don't spend time at popular coastal beaches. 
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:14:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Poor taste to poke fun in any way. Don't do stupid suicidal flight activities. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:14:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ram Air out of Raleigh by chance? Nah. I knew some of those guys. But I was at a now long defunct place out of Dallas Love. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:14:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Huh, I’ve been going there every day, and didn’t know.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:17:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Today I learned that banner advertising was still a thing. Thought it had mostly died out except for the occasional political sign. Today Learned (once again) that “Basement Dwelling ArfCommer” is not just a figure of speech. I don’t know why it surprises me each time, but it truly does. We have a fantastic amount of diversity here, between actual James Bond types and actual Hermits. It’s truly amazing. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:19:48 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:21:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Looks like right wing stalled first, putting him into a spin. He attempted recovery properly by inputting left rudder, but he was too low to the ground to recover. If he was a little higher he may have made it.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:25:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Even in dangerous jobs you pretty much still expect to come home at the end of the day. How quickly things can change in a matter of seconds.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:26:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Low altitude flying over a populated area where you have ZERO emergency landing options is an idiotic plan to start with.
No place to land. Not enough altitude to recover from a likely stall. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:35:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like right wing stalled first, putting him into a spin. He attempted recovery properly by inputting left rudder, but he was too low to the ground to recover. If he was a little higher he may have made it. Yeah, fantastic accident analysis, aside from the fact that he got dragged down by that big assed banner.  Why he didn’t release it, we may never know.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:39:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even in dangerous jobs you pretty much still expect to come home at the end of the day. How quickly things can change in a matter of seconds. It’s just regular everyday people, doing regular jobs. For very low pay. (The most dangerous job in the world, becomes routine, in a month or two. It’s just how we are). |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:42:43 PM EDT
[#12]
Looks to me like he was too low, banner got reeeeeal "heavy" due to ground turbulence and maybe a channel of air flowing between the rows of buildings, and he cut loose too late to recover.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:46:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't know about the left coast, but the banner planes flying up and down the beach on the right coast are usually clapped out, stripped down lawnmowers with wings that barely get off the deck under their own power. Always thought those pilots were suicidal. That has not been my experience. Ten years ago I was towing banners in exceptionally looked after aircraft. I did it for 3 seasons out of a small strip in New Jersey. J-3 cubs or a variant of such with at least 150hp and a climb prop. They were an absolute blast to fly. With a light headwind I would be airborne before the throttle hit the forward stop. RIP to the banner pilot who crashed as it is clearly a dangerous way to build time. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 12:57:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Plane crashed nearly across the street from where I used to live, he was a long way from the beach and is not a normal area for towing. He was flying out of North Perry Airport. Banner planes crashing right around Perry isn't too uncommon. He was about 2.5 miles from the beach and 5 miles from North Perry airport.
My guess would be engine issues and he was trying to land on Park Road. Releases banner and is distracted long enough to stall the plane. It ALMOST looks like the banner hits a tower right before the stall spin? |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:00:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I probably took a pic of him a couple of months ago departing Port Everglades https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/177643/Untitled_png-2821835.JPG That airplane was in a news report a few years ago from a bunch of weather damaged airplanes out of North Perry. ETA: Can't be same, maybe, banner guys fly some sketchy stuff. 
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:18:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Poor taste to poke fun in any way. Not really in the right circumstances. It is a very human way of dealing with bad news and tragedy. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:26:40 PM EDT
[#17]
running up and down Misquamicut all summer
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:26:54 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:30:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Air Tractor, square wing tips. oof, maybe I am wrong, round tail for the Piper. All the ag wagon and cessnas seem to have a square rudder and fin profile. I watched the clip, I can kind of see why he didn’t put his nose down to regain airspeed, he didn’t have the altitude,...but even then stick forward may have been more survivablebthat that hellacious 200’ free fall. I couldn’t tell if he was over buildings or not before gaining the street, Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pawnee? Air Tractor, square wing tips. oof, maybe I am wrong, round tail for the Piper. All the ag wagon and cessnas seem to have a square rudder and fin profile. I watched the clip, I can kind of see why he didn’t put his nose down to regain airspeed, he didn’t have the altitude,...but even then stick forward may have been more survivablebthat that hellacious 200’ free fall. I couldn’t tell if he was over buildings or not before gaining the street, There is an extended wingtip mod for the Pawnee. If you are towing banners in a 150hp Pawnee without the extended wings, you apparently have a death wish. The extended wings supposedly bring the safety of towing with a 150hp Pawnee up to about the same level as towing with a 235hp Pawnee that has standard wings, with the lower operating cost of the 150hp engine making that combination desirable to the company. My flight instructor spent some time flying for a banner tow company that had a 150hp Pawnee with extended wings, and a 235hp Pawnee with standard wings. The owner also bought an old Ag Cat with a 300hp Jacobs on the nose, and I heard it made a great tow plane, except for the higher operating cost of it's engine. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:35:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Today Learned (once again) that “Basement Dwelling Arfer” is not just a figure of speech. I don’t know why it surprises me each time, but it truly does. We have a fantastic amount of diversity here, between actual James Bond types and actual Hermits. It’s truly amazing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Today I learned that banner advertising was still a thing. Thought it had mostly died out except for the occasional political sign. Today Learned (once again) that “Basement Dwelling Arfer” is not just a figure of speech. I don’t know why it surprises me each time, but it truly does. We have a fantastic amount of diversity here, between actual James Bond types and actual Hermits. It’s truly amazing. An astounding number of people simply never bother to look up at the sky. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 1:41:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is an extended wingtip mod for the Pawnee. If you are towing banners in a 150hp Pawnee without the extended wings, you apparently have a death wish. The extended wings supposedly bring the safety of towing with a 150hp Pawnee up to about the same level as towing with a 235hp Pawnee that has standard wings, with the lower operating cost of the 150hp engine making that combination desirable to the company. My flight instructor spent some time flying for a banner tow company that had a 150hp Pawnee with extended wings, and a 235hp Pawnee with standard wings. The owner also bought an old Ag Cat with a 300hp Jacobs on the nose, and I heard it made a great tow plane, except for the higher operating cost of it's engine. This was a 235/250hp version, but if you look at the flight path he hardly got above stall speed. WX looks like about 2,000' density altitude. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:06:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve been to a Bank Check flight crash, female pilot, killed, went down immediately after take off, couple miles from the airport, Orlando Executive, full fuel load into a house about two blocks behind mine, Ran as first due to a Banner Plane crash at Merritt Island Airport, poor son of a bitch missed hooking the banner , the rig bounced and wrapped his rudder, he rode it around and almost made the field, cut power to soon and went down in the brush off the side of the runway. Almost survived, caught the one big, solid palm tree in the brush patch, drove the engine right back into him. His Wife was on the runway, laid out the banner…. I had no idea they took off without the banner then came back around to hook it. It makes sense to help them takeoff and keep the banner from getting torn up….I guess I’ve just never thought about it. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:10:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had no idea they took off without the banner then came back around to hook it. It makes sense to help them takeoff and keep the banner from getting torn up….I guess I’ve just never thought about it. Looks like a pretty good crosswind pickup.  How advertising planes pick up banners, Breda Airport And effffffff that.  A DAY IN THE LIFE OF A BANNER TOW PILOT AT PARAMOUNT AIR SERVICE IN 4K |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:25:18 PM EDT
[#24]
There will be a lot more of those come Memorial Day weekend.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:30:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Apparently low time towing from that article
The pilot had less than 20 hours of experience flying banner-tow planes, |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:39:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Most interesting of a well run air show was the banner puller. It was so well timed that there was no lull in action. A F-18 had just finished a high speed pass when a banner plane blasted past. I was down one end in the parking area and he came in banking and going. It was pretty cool.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:39:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apparently low time towing from that article The pilot had less than 20 hours of experience flying banner-tow planes, Another article said about 325hrs TT, not a whole lot. His FB page shows Army vet. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:46:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is an extended wingtip mod for the Pawnee. If you are towing banners in a 150hp Pawnee without the extended wings, you apparently have a death wish. The extended wings supposedly bring the safety of towing with a 150hp Pawnee up to about the same level as towing with a 235hp Pawnee that has standard wings, with the lower operating cost of the 150hp engine making that combination desirable to the company. My flight instructor spent some time flying for a banner tow company that had a 150hp Pawnee with extended wings, and a 235hp Pawnee with standard wings. The owner also bought an old Ag Cat with a 300hp Jacobs on the nose, and I heard it made a great tow plane, except for the higher operating cost of it's engine. Thanks for the real info! |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:48:44 PM EDT
[#29]
It's a waste for sure. if he was lucky he was making $30/hr.
banner towing is highly dangerous you are right on the edge of the stall everytime, in almost every situation. if you value your life, you wont do it. picking up the banner can toss you into a snap roll and or you can smack into the ground too. unable to release the banner could be another problem. you literally sleep in a tent at the airport, and then go out and risk your life for someone elses profits. not worth it. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 2:53:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't know about the left coast, but the banner planes flying up and down the beach on the right coast are usually clapped out, stripped down lawnmowers with wings that barely get off the deck under their own power. Always thought those pilots were suicidal. Agreed I watch them all summer long and I listen to their engines struggling, and I wonder how more aren’t auguring into the ocean |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:04:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An astounding number of people simply never bother to look up at the sky. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Today I learned that banner advertising was still a thing. Thought it had mostly died out except for the occasional political sign. Today Learned (once again) that “Basement Dwelling Arfer” is not just a figure of speech. I don’t know why it surprises me each time, but it truly does. We have a fantastic amount of diversity here, between actual James Bond types and actual Hermits. It’s truly amazing. An astounding number of people simply never bother to look up at the sky. An astounding amount of people here don’t notice anything outside of maybe a 50 mile radius of their home. That isn’t the surprising part. In a weird way, I almost envy them. It’s a simpler life, and maybe a better one. The shocking part is when they Brag about it. That’s the part I just don’t get. Would  Brag about never leaving leaving Mayberry? Yes…. Yes, he probably would. But it’s a lifestyle so far away from my own, that I can’t help but marvel at it. OTOH, we have guys who live in combat conditions in Africa and the M.E., and that’s a level so far beyond mine, that I might as well be living in Mayberry too. There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones Now the sun's gone to hell and The moon's riding high Let me bid you farewell Every man has to die But it's written in the starlight And every line in your palm We're fools to make war On our brothers in arms |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:08:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another article said about 325hrs TT, not a whole lot. His FB page shows Army vet. Damn. Poor guy. It’s been decades but as I recall it’s like 250 or 300 hours to get a commercial ticket. He was barely on the job if that’s the case. And I had given a couple thousand hours of dual before I went to fly night cargo. Things must be different now. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:15:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn. Poor guy. It’s been decades but as I recall it’s like 250 or 300 hours to get a commercial ticket. He was barely on the job if that’s the case. And I had given a couple thousand hours of dual before I went to fly night cargo. Things must be different now. 250 for commercial. New in aviation terms. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:21:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 250 for commercial. New in aviation terms. I flew a skydive plane a few days after my commercial checkride. That group was unsafe as hell and I quit after day one. The next guy spun that plane into the ground. 250 hr pilots are dangerous. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:21:34 PM EDT
[#35]
How soon before drones do this job?
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:21:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Such a small world. I worked with Mitchell's mom 20+ years ago and my wife worked the daycare when Mitchell was a little boy. RIP
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:24:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know its too soon, but what did the banner say? Joe's Smokin' BBQ Pit |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:24:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I flew a skydive plane a few days after my commercial checkride. That group was unsafe as hell and I quit after day one. The next guy spun that plane into the ground. 250 hr pilots are dangerous. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 250 for commercial. New in aviation terms. I flew a skydive plane a few days after my commercial checkride. That group was unsafe as hell and I quit after day one. The next guy spun that plane into the ground. 250 hr pilots are dangerous. Sky dive pilots are different, they are there to make sure people are motivated to jump. 
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:29:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sky dive pilots are different, they are there to make sure people are motivated to jump. Most of the divers bailed out. A teenaged chick and her dad plus the pilot rode it in. But you’re not wrong. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 3:33:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't do stupid suicidal flight activities. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Poor taste to poke fun in any way. Don't do stupid suicidal flight activities. I used to feel sorry for you, but now I don’t. At all. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 4:10:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, fantastic accident analysis, aside from the fact that he got dragged down by that big assed banner. Why he didn’t release it, we may never know.It looks like he did release it, but way too late. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 4:22:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I drove cargo in 401, 402, 404, Aerostar, and a check ride then a couple flights in Mu-2 before I had the time to go corporate and quit. Those planes all smelled like sweat, piss, stress, and tetanus. Never flew a Porter but I have more PC-12 time than should be legal. Fortunately haven’t really flown one in years. Aerostar, MU-2? Those have interesting accident histories! |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:02:18 PM EDT
[#43]
 Florida Banner Tow Stall/Spin WSVN-TV |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:07:13 PM EDT
[#44]
 Video shows deadly plane crash in Broward County  Body cam video shows moments after deadly plane crash in Hollywood |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:32:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to feel sorry for you, but now I don’t. At all. Your viewpoint seems to be like that of cops here who can never be critical of other cops who fuck up. If you don't like me telling my opinion then take the typical approach of using the IGNORE function. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:45:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryI love Juan, but someone should send him this thread as we have more updated information. 
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:47:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Few years back one landed on 95 down there. I was caught in that mess. Took hours & hours to get home.
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:48:20 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 5/19/2023 5:59:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stalled it. It can be tricky towing a banner in a mediocre powered single engine airplane, you need to manage airspeed and angle of bank constantly like you are in the landing pattern. I've never flow a banner plane but I've flown sky jumpers and that can be hairy as well... potential major shifts of the CG as jumper move forward ready to jump and you're slowed down not much above stall speed. That was an Ag plane (crop duster). The tend to be overpowered. But banner tow operators tend to be cheap assed scumbags so… |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 6:02:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your viewpoint seems to be like that of cops here who can never be critical of other cops who fuck up. If you don't like me telling my opinion then take the typical approach of using the IGNORE function. There’s being critical about what happened. Then there what you did.
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