I have repeated this story several times in GD.

And I will tell it again here.

This is Lt. Gen. Chuck Horner :



He was the air forces commander during Desert Shield/Desert Storm .

He came to speak to us cadets at USAFA in late ‘91 or '92 .

At some point he opened up the floor to cadets to ask questions.  One cadet asked a question along the lines "Don’t you think it is great that the A-10's were able to take so much damage, and limp home, and return the pilot back to base?"

His response was along the lines of "You want a cheap, disposable aircraft to be able to do CAS."

It still has me scratching my head almost 30 years later.

My only guess is that he meant it was cheaper just to buy a new jet than to fix and buy parts for a 20 year old plane That had basketball size holes In its wings or tail.

The thought for many of us cadets especially those who had done SERE training already was "What about the pilot of said disposable aircraft?  Won't he be captured and taken as a POW."  But we didn't get a chance to ask that question.

In the early 90's, the AF did try to spin up a CAS variant of the F-16.  They called it the A-16.  It had a FLIR. “Eye “ mounted just ahead of the front cockpit glass, but just behind the radar.

As you can see that A-16 program didn't go anywhere.

And it is almost 30 years after Desert Storm and we still have A-10's flying.

And yet, USAF kicks and screams and refuses to field LAAR airframes, instead choosing years and years of studies and analysis of alternatives and "system of systems" and whatever other bullshit they can imagine to delay past the election or death of whomever in congress forces them to take action to maintain a CAS aircraft.

Because heaven forbid they fly a low cost turboprop in the same environment that we've been burning up high performance airframes as bomb trucks for the last 20 years.  They could "system of systems" their way into getting the whole CAS role defunded by Congress if they play their cards right.  

I don't think you read what I wrote.

I said that the Hog was going to be slaughtered in *any* denied environment, so the "it isn't stealth" argument is a strawman.

I also said that the *real* problem with the Hog, and why the AF is drawing it down, is because of airframe life.

Bingo

If you think that "USAF kicks and screams and refuses to field LAAR airframes", you are strawmanning the debate at HAF, as well as making the mistake of being more concerned with delivery vehicles than weapons effects.

Seems like you've decided what the only acceptable path would be, so I'm not sure you're actually interested in the discussion.

Primarily because the "A-16" tests were a disaster.

The pod-mounted gun couldn't maintain zero.

Quick math that is 150m/plane.

Memory could be wrong but...

Wasnt that the approximate unit cost at the end of the f22 program (ex R&D)

So Err..

Well.  At least they got the decals on the tail.  

I friend of mine (former USAF pilot) and I were discussing it this morning.

Basically, we're not getting F-35s fast enough to replace airframes going out of service or at limited capacity due to age.

https://warontherocks.com/2019/06/f-15ex-the-strategic-blind-spot-in-the-air-forces-fighter-debate/?fbclid=IwAR2anIhkcRppzZY6U6TK05EL4g8MQOeCp_vmzoK_-9Qv4A6EIMjIPooPMhA

Mentioned the F-15 "Silent Eagle". Now THAT is an interesting sounding bird.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/boeing-f15se-silent-eagle/

New F-15s aren't going to help in a war with China when 55% of Americans are on China's side. Your cultural and social issues are far bigger problems than defense.

Yes, there was no actual long-run "cost savings" of stopping F-22 production, shifting the then-year budget over to producing ISR assets to support Afghanistan and Iraq, and then buying "cheaper" F-35s later. Turns out the F-15Cs, F-16s, and A-10s that were supposed to be replaced by a full fleet of F-22s and F-35s just never materialized.

Take it up with Secretary Gates.

That is less than half of china's population.  It's almost 1.4 billion.

I think an acceptable path would be to have a CAS capable airframe in inventory before the A10s crumble apart due to age, and every time I read about an effort to actually field an airframe for the purpose, USAF brass always deflect to "interoperability", "system of systems", and "lower echelon partner training".

I don't see how any of those put a bird in the air, but I do see repeated efforts to not field an A10 replacement and eliminate the A10.  I don't see how utilizing a stealthy, high cost per flight hour F35 to bomb mud huts and motorcycles in the desert from 35,000 feet solves the problem that were in now, where a bunch of airframes are worn past their service lives due to doing that exact thing.  Doing the same thing we've been doing (burning up high performance airframes with high per/hour costs to perform low-intensity missions) seems to have cratered availability rates across all of the fleets.

Even if the USAF solution was to turn the T-7A into the AT-7A, that would at least indicate that there is a plan for a path forward post-A10, rather than just eliminating that path or continuing to burn high performance airframes that result in us buying the EX.

My layman's understanding is that "weapon effects" only matter if there's an effective delivery vehicle to get them on target.  An "interoperable" "system of systems" with "low echelon partner training" doesn't seem to solve the delivery vehicle problem, if the delivery vehicles are all aging out. Unless the plan is "death by PowerPoint".

I'm all ears on this one; my apologies if listening to in person frustrations of wounded vets I know, coupled with copious following of procurement developments (or lack thereof) for the last 11 years sounds like I'm not interested in the discussion; these are the discussions I try to actively follow, hopefully for some new information that proves me wrong.

ETA:  to keep this post somewhat on track, the EX does sound like an awesome way to recapitalize part of the fleet, rather than slap halfhearted upgrades into a tired airframe.  The fact that it encourages some degree of effort by someone other than Lockheed is just a bonus.

One important factor is they are saying this will be a 20,000 hour airframe which is huge.  These things could be flying for a long, long time.   Despite the age of the original design, it's a very capable and very well proven design and there are plenty of jobs that don't call for a top tier stealth aircraft.    These things alone could outmatch the airforces of the vast majority of countries in the world with only a few exceptions.   With all the modern electronics they should outclass the legacy stuff in inventory.

Also with all that rack space they have to be capable of using external fuel tanks for some insane range .  

The AF could do a lot worse than procure a few dozen of these.

The F-15EX is just the Air Force spending it's budget on what it wants to have not on the missions it is being tasked to accomplish.  AF criteria is "Will it look cool in the next IRON EAGLE movie?".

The solution is simple:
Air Force = Interceptor/Air Superiority, Strategic Bombing, EW/ELINT, Transport, Tanking
Army = Close Air Support, SEAD/WW, Tactical Recon, SAR, Forward Air Control/Spotter
Nobody = ICBM.  Retire this leg of the Strategic Triad.  This force is crumbling due to neglect and poor morale since anybody getting assigned here has no advancement opportunities in the AF.

The problem is that the Air Force won't let these missions go to the Army, which wants to actually do them, because the AF wants to keep the budget.  To spend on cool looking go fast jets that don't do the mission.  We need to stop promoting the "Fighter Mafia" into senior positions.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17162/document-offers-new-details-about-those-ov-10-broncos-that-went-to-fight-isis
They know the answer, they just don't like it.

How depressing.  I'm going to really miss that shark toothy grin in our airspace when they are gone.

What a lifespan.

Wow, 16 missiles!

I thought the Cs had structural issues? Not a fault just worn out type issues.  Flying the wings off them is a euphemism, is it not the actual wings?

I didn't mean high/low as much as I meant 5th gen/4th gen.  4th being the missile trucks with all the hard points and 5th gen with the stealth and sensors/links to coordinate.  

Do I have all of that wrong?

16 missiles taking tasking orders from the superior DAS system from an accompanying F35.

Together they are a force multiplier and a stronger unit vs the individual stats.

I know, they fly over my house everyday. I miss seeing the F-15's we use to have.

I for one expect Boeing 2020 to fuck this up and have planes randomly fall out of the air.

this.

a flying missile warehouse distribution center waiting for the next order.

Capable of two aviators, but USAF plans on only using one?  Does that mean the second seat and weight will be removed, allowing for more fuel and missiles?

Also....it's sad that the F35 and most of our combat aircraft seem so short legged these days.  I know they can get aerial refueling, but 400 miles is 400 miles.

Reading that sales pitch for manned prop aircraft, I'm struggling to see what capabilities they provide that a current generation armed UAS doesn't? It carried the same equipment as a drone, only its bigger and manned and at greater risk. I'm not seeing the gap they're referring to.

Another problem which no one likes to discuss is the overreliance of the Army on CAS instead of using organic FS systems like artillery or rockets. Many Maneuver commanders see CAS as their primary fire support tool when that isn't the case.

What you did there, I seent it!

$150 million per plane on the first eight. Is lube for each tax payer included in that price.

So it happened?  Last I heard all the experts on ARF said the AF would never buy them.

I'm going to stick with my assertion that Stealth isn't the advantage it used to be.  The Advanced avionics and networking are the real advantage of the 5th gen fighters.  So to me an F-15 with all the new tech toys makes sense.

I know someone will be along to tell me I'm full of shit...

5th gen electrodoodads and tech in a chassis that flys significantly higher/faster/further than our current production stealthy thigamajigs...

How is this a bad thing?

I mean, think about all the avionics/electronics space that needed dedicated to only do what they could do in the 80’s versus how compact/efficient/capable electronics and sensor systems are in 2020... I’m willing to bet an iPhone 12 could outcompete an old F15, lol.

This is going to be badass.

There isn't much that operates comfortably faster and higher than a 22.

Yep, that's why Navy fighters have to rely on land based Air Force tankers

Are F22s our current production stealth thingamajigs?

Boeing is building these. There is a deep and insistent culture of corporate incompetence derived from the Jack Welch "bean counter' way of doing business that is drowning the entire company in a Stygian darkness.

If these first two are delivered and AF quality control says. "We aren't accepting these. They are full of construction flaws." Well, that won't be good for anyone but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Theres also the fact that it should be classified as the F model. And the fact that there has been so many generations of improvement and changes in the airframe that Boeing could have reconfigured the internals to create a variant with bigger engines without... too much more effort. A... Super Eagle to go along with the Super Hornet.

But a more conservative approach was taken for various reasons. Honestly, a few squadrons of these birds with competent pilots and a full quiver of AMRAAM's and sidewinders will be more than enough to stomp the fuck out of 80% of this planets Air Forces.

And yet I have a bad feeling about this project. Like its a signpost pointing to something. But I have no idea what.

Sorry i saw thingamajigS...as in plural.  I assumed you meant both the 22 and 35.

With the GE engines will the EX super cruise?  That seems like it could be handy in the pacific region where distances are longer

Very cool!  Hopefully they don't offshore the flight systems code where they pay by the line!

Not to mention ordinance compatibility, repair depots, mechanics and support staff already aplenty for f-15.

I've heard boeing wouldn't even share it with Lockmart for the 15SA simulator.

If these things can't directly talk to F-35s, they are wrong.

Then why are they using an older model number. Shouldn't they be using a higher model like a 17 or 18?

They can.

There would be no point to their construction otherwise.

Because those numbers are already taken...?

The F-15EX is years from hitting the ramp.  The picture is of a F-15QA (Qatar A/C) with a F-15EX logo.  Globo-Boeing has to finish building all the F-15QA jets before they get to the F-15s for the USAF.

Boeing also probably has to finish up delivery of the F-15SAs for the Saudis...I wonder if the jets that were rotting on the ramp with thousands of non-conformances were ever made airworthy.

Unfortunately, the AF F-15s will probably be as full of non-conformances, defects, untested components, and unqualified parts as their export planes are.

At least the wings aren't being built by Koreans.

These planes will wind up as stateside test A/C and be queens at Eglin, Edwards, and other test sites.  Unfortunately it will be 2030 before they get there.  I'm sure the mental midgets at the F-15 SPO have a 15K test point test plan they will have to do.

These F-15 buys are just a bridge to keep the lights on at St Louis until they attempt to build the robo-tanker for the Navy and the new trainer for the AF.

I really think that we need a Lot of Cheap Air to Air fighters to defend CONUS rather than a few Expensive Air to Air planes that can't cover a lot of territory.

Stealth isn't the end-all it is made out to be, but anything that gives an enemy less time to react to your presence is a good thing.  Shoot first kill first is still a thing.

but you are right, that is it is all the sensors and fused data that is rapidly becoming the force multiplier.

It kind of looks like a counter to Chinese Human shit tier flying things wave attacks.