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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:26:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Possibly could have had a Zinc Diecast frame with steel inserts? In the 1930s Colt experimented with a diecast M1911A1 frame. While not adopted, the experiment was successful on a cost/longevity basis. It wasn't the conventional Zamak alloy. I don't think it had steel inserts. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:30:59 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the 1930s Colt experimented with a diecast M1911A1 frame. While not adopted, the experiment was successful on a cost/longevity basis. It wasn't the conventional Zamak alloy. I don't think it had steel inserts. The aussies had the 'austen' that had a die cast magwell. The mkII was virtually all die cast save for the barrel, bolt, mag etc |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:32:05 AM EDT
[#3]
I think you'd have found the machining capabilities are not there yet(considering mold construction), and the cost per unit in the 1930's would have greatly exceeded that of a traditional unit making it not viable as a service weapon.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:35:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:37:32 AM EDT
[#5]
With what?
Bakelite? No |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:48:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Yes if you want a Glock made out of bakelite.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:54:29 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes if you want a Glock made out of steel, with bakelite grips . Fify |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 9:16:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They might have been able to make a glass reinforced nylon frame that would work, but if would not have been anywhere near as good as modern polymers. Any idea when they invented glass filled plastic? |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 9:18:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Not even close to appropriate materials. I think it was not until 1950 that Colt contracted with ALCOA to forge aluminum frames for the Commander series. At 27 Ounces empty, the gun was revolutionary for it's time. There was no plastic available at the time capable of substitution for an aluminum framed pistol. Yeah, heck even an aluminum frame pistol would have been stretch during WW2. Never mind that aluminum was a strategic material, the early aluminum frame guns seemed to be a bit on the delicate side |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 9:32:32 AM EDT
[#10]
The answer to this question is two parts. Could a polymer framed pistol have been produced in WWII to near current standards? The answer to that one is no. Would they have even tried? No, look at how many years it took for Glocks to become accepted in real life.
Some things just take a while to become accepted. Look at sub-machine guns for example. No production reason why the trenches in WWI couldn't have been filled with sub-machine guns, which would have performed well. But the mindset wouldn't permit it. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 9:35:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Thanks for the question OP. I learned a lot I never knew reading this thread.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:50:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Every aluminum gum wrapper was turned in for aircraft production war effort
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:56:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Steel and the ability to machine it was one of our strengths. I don't think we were ever short of small arms.
1930s plastics were suitable for figurines and light switch plates. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:02:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe a bakelite type material with metal rail inserts molded into it. Didn't really matter. There were a ton of available machinists and raw steel to be had. This is what I was thinking. But bakelite is quite brittle. I don't know what other synthetics more suitable would have been readily and widely available for actual production. Polyethylene was around but not in high volumes. Guns could be made, yes. Production would have been unlikely, IMO. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:22:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes if you want a Glock made out of bakelite. Yes please! 
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:26:29 PM EDT
[#16]
The Germans pioneered Bakelite, and Bayer even patented the name. One of the reasons it's called by different names. Bakelite is very durable, and might even last longer than current polymer frames.
Erma MP-40 w Bakelite lower that sold at auction last year.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:39:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Someone mentioned the micarta (mikarta?) process for laying up fabric; anyone have any thoughts on that? Couldn't you imbed metal inserts in that?
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:40:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Germans pioneered Bakelite, and Bayer even patented the name. One of the reasons it's called by different names. Bakelite is very durable, and might even last longer than current polymer frames. Erma MP-40 w Bakelite lower that sold at auction last year.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/110810/IMG_1347_jpeg-3082881.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/110810/IMG_1348_jpeg-3082882.JPG There's a *lot* of steel under that. Bakelite is way less durable than modern plastics. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:43:44 PM EDT
[#19]
The Firestone composite/polymer material worked very well in the BAR, I imagine some one could have made a polymer pistol with similar materials.
 It didn't matter, pistols don't win wars, they put their efforts into the guns that did. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:46:16 PM EDT
[#20]
People Don't Think Materials science and technology be like it is, but it do
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:46:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nylon 60 was one of the first really viable platforms, and that was blowback .22. Zero chance you would have ANYTHING like we have today. Heck, take a look at a 1980 era Gen 1 Glock 17 and think about how far we've come since then. I could see blowback .25ACP and .32ACP being fielded on bakelight, plexiglass, or nylon frames for the Axis, as the Germans were chronically short of handguns, which were largely badges of rank for them, and the officers were constantly whining for smaller, lighter carry pistols. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:51:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the 1930s Colt experimented with a diecast M1911A1 frame. While not adopted, the experiment was successful on a cost/longevity basis. It wasn't the conventional Zamak alloy. I don't think it had steel inserts. Alloy was called "brastil" - was an experiment by Springfield Armory - (the governemnt one) back in the 1930s. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/ |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:53:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone mentioned the micarta (mikarta?) process for laying up fabric; anyone have any thoughts on that? Couldn't you imbed metal inserts in that? If we are talking WWII hanguns, somehting involving laminations of paper or thin wood impregnated with resin and plaaced under heat and pressure might make a suitable "war expediant" hangun frame. Something like the DuraMold process Hughes used on aircraft. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 6:00:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Firestone composite/polymer material worked very well in the BAR, I imagine some one could have made a polymer pistol with similar materials. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9fa82b_f8f119483575407c8da4ee37d63f0b99~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_576,h_182,al_c,lg_1,q_80,enc_auto/9fa82b_f8f119483575407c8da4ee37d63f0b99~mv2.jpg It didn't matter, pistols don't win wars, they put their efforts into the guns that did. It'd be thicc as hell.  Attached FileAnd thats just a stock. There's no actual stress from firing being placed on it |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:49:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alloy was called "brastil" - was an experiment by Springfield Armory - (the governemnt one) back in the 1930s. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In the 1930s Colt experimented with a diecast M1911A1 frame. While not adopted, the experiment was successful on a cost/longevity basis. It wasn't the conventional Zamak alloy. I don't think it had steel inserts. Alloy was called "brastil" - was an experiment by Springfield Armory - (the governemnt one) back in the 1930s. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/ Desire for Bronze Glock intensifies. But overall if we're going WW2 Alt History, I think just machined steel Glock frame + metal mags seems the most plausible given the nature of US production methods in WW2. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 10:26:18 PM EDT
[#26]
For some reason I have images of Planet of the apes carbines in my head now.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 10:42:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Who made injection molding machines in 1941?
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Posted: 1/5/2024 11:52:20 PM EDT
[#28]
No.
Bakelite off the top of my head was the first true, non natural polymer. It had to be set with heat and pressure and what you got was what you got. Like other early natural based and synthetic based products, it was good to replace more scare natural materials. It would have been used in some components in WWI. In WWII there were plenty of synthetic rubber, Bakelite, and other polymers used. But they were not really ready to replace most metal components in firearms, and would not have been cost effective compared to wood stocks, etc. Later on, there were still issues with developing brittleness, runny ness, UV exposure, chemical exposure, etc. Do any of you own cars from the 60s and early 70s? Did you own them in when they were ten, twenty years old? Let alone now. Stuff gets brittle and cracks. Stuff gets soft, mushy, and sticky. There were some developments that came about by the 80s and 90s that simply were not there |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 11:56:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Okay. Kinda want a beaver barf Glock, now.
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Posted: 1/6/2024 12:21:06 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay. Kinda want a beaver barf Glock, now. Thats phenolic resin, not bakelite. No idea how that'd hold up |
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Posted: 1/6/2024 12:31:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Steel frame Glock would have been possible, and would have still been a major improvement in production time / cost over the 1911 or High Power. https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/92649/916943867/wm_8344562.jpg https://ccfraceframes.com/images/c_gripstrap3.jpg Possibly could have had a Zinc Diecast frame with steel inserts? I was just thinking recently about mass production of steel frame Glocks. They sure do seem easier to "get right" than something like a High Power which demands a certain level of craftsmanship. As others have said, handguns are not war winning weapons. The industrial might of all major powers seemed to have little trouble cranking out enough handguns except perhaps the Japanese and Germans. Whole libraries of books have been written about this sort of thing. If it were up to me I would have had my people standardize on a CZ-75 variant and pour as much research effort as possible into semiconductors and fission. There was a show on NBC about time travel that was really poorly done. In the very first episode there's a scene where a cop in 1930s New Jersey is doing a full detail strip of a time travellers G-19. Naturally because the writers were more obsessed with racism than anything else. Nothing ever came of Officer Friendly's finger fucking of future pistol technology. |
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Posted: 1/6/2024 6:55:44 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Germans pioneered Bakelite, and Bayer even patented the name. One of the reasons it's called by different names. Bakelite is very durable, and might even last longer than current polymer frames. Erma MP-40 w Bakelite lower that sold at auction last year.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/110810/IMG_1347_jpeg-3082881.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/110810/IMG_1348_jpeg-3082882.JPG Those guns look great. All the bakelite boxes I've pulled out of wall decayed to shit and they were only about 40 years old. |
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