I meant that those cars are not being sold over MSRP. If I was not clear than I apologize. Other than that what is sad?

Yet I am expected to invest millions on other businesses with state law dictating my competition or providing me protection from competition.

Dealers are all for capitalism-
Well, the kind that gives them a monopoly on the product anyway.
Not the kind that would let other models compete with them.

I'm done talking with you.  You said there are plenty of dealers doing this and have repeatedly struggled to name more than one.  Your intentional ignorance is a disruption to this site and at this point considered trolling.

Strictly speaking there is ZERO free market capitalism.  The government regulates EVERYTHING!  There is nothing in this country that doesn't have at least one ingredient that the government hasn't fucked up the production of in one way or the other.

But that is the world we live in.  I don't like government-protected monopolies, but we have them.  You can yell at the clouds all you want, but that won't change anything.

Getting back to buying stuff.....no one owes you any product you want at your desired price unless you have a contract stating otherwise.

You aren't entitled.  They aren't obligated.  

Lol. Wut?

I understand you have a vested interest in keeping consumers in the dark. Again, please tell me how dealer allocation affects order through Ford’s Customer Order Verification Program?

I am not a liar and have called you out. I’m sorry your feelings are hurt.

There are about 15 million new light vehicles sold annually in the US.  Let's assume that each purchase involves 5 conversations with the buyer.

No sane person would expect the manufacturers to have call centers for the 75 million phone calls they would likely get each year.  Who are they going to hire to run these.

Where is the warrantee work going to be one.  Joe's Local Garage and Smokehouse.  Do you think all of his wrench turners will be auto industry certified?

If only you could decentralize the sales process and allow the consumer to look at the product as part of the shopping experience.  And what if they also had service departments with people trained to work on those specific vehicles.  And what if they had a part's department.......all under one roof!

We could call them DEALERSHIPS.

But that would entail work.  We would much rather sit in our internet high chairs and squall until we get exactly what we want now.  Other people ought to work for free for us.

You’re really just proving my point.  You’re buying all of those things from retailers that are all competing for your business.

Yeah I’m sure that felt like a great answer in his head but in reality it’s totally different.

You can shop around.  You can negotiate.  In many cases a lifestyle change can reduce or eliminate the need for certain products or services.

You can go out of the country.  You can except quality of service equal to what it was 20 or so years ago.

You can have anything you want fast, cheap, and perfect.....but you are limited to only two of those.

Why do you have to be so… factual?

Seriously, no dealership has anything remotely close to a monopoly.

If you are willing to buy directly from the manufacturer, are you willing to forego any warrantee protections?

I’ve got to go on a tangent…

Health insurance, by definition, is for catastrophic medical events. Not medical maintenance.

If everyone was expected to cover their own medical care, but insurance for catastrophic events (broken bones, cancer, etc.), care costs could be dictated by the market. And folks would be more inclined to not stuff their faces with fried pork, cigarettes, and beer. Maybe exercise a little.

Instead they demand a fixed cheap cost for “medical care” while they do whatever they feel like at the moment to their bodies.

I browsed a few a few weeks ago in person and then online to see if I could find a deal that didn't look like robbery. No bueno, I took my cash and bought repair parts and maintenance items instead and left the rest in the bank.

I only managed about 20 seconds worth of listening to those two fellows.

I wonder sometimes just how many people here ever bought a car before the internet played a part in the marketplace. When instead of using your cheeto stained fingers to surf the internet and lowball every dealership in your state via email, you actually had to get up, load the wife and kids in the car, and go physically out and look.

If you think dealerships are out of control now, you should have been around for the good old days. You don't know how good you have it.

You heard him.  Fragment.

Shop around.

I just bought a Jeep Gladiator Mojave. One dealership wanted $2500 over sticker.

a short drive more I found the same truck (exact same truck) discounted $5800.

I got about the same off a 2021 rubicon I ordered. If you are not buying one of those rare vehicles that sell used over MSRP than you don’t have to worry. Which kinda makes this thread worthless and me an idiot for posting in it.

*fist bump* bought the same thing, LOVE it!

Car dealerships are a den of thieves. Always has been, always will be.

I bought a new diesel wrangler back in may….was able to pay a few grand below sticker.

Would not be the case anymore.  

I was actually looking at buying used like I always do but used was more than new.  

Nutso world we live in today.

Yeah. I love mine, the wife drives it more then I do, but I love it.

+1

I have bought a handful of new cars- and have paid below invoice for all of them until this most recent one. Just paid MSRP last week for a new Toyota. That hurts a bit on the ego but it was better than paying used prices that are inflated 30% and sure to correct within the length of the loan.

also for @68Ford

Yes....a fragment.

People imagine all kinds of shit....this is just one small piece of their delirium.

Bronco is a want, not a need in this “emergency”.
Dealers can charge what they want

Click bait.

But to address the title, they are fully in control.  Just high prices because of low supply.

Exactly.  When I went in to order my new car I went to a dealership I have done business with for 20 years, with multiple deals(yes I have a car buying problem).    The dealer wanted $5,000 over MSRP.   I walked out.  He followed me out to the parking lot and said he'd come down to MSRP, all within 60 seconds of telling me $5k over.  I just left and found another dealer.  I may have been wrong, but I felt insulted.  Anyhow I received a much better deal at another dealership, and will be going there first from now on.

It started when people were stupid enough to pay $60K plus for one of the most depreciated assets one can purchase and be OK with it. And be OK with 96 month loans.

Americans are dumb.

Credit became very easy to get.
Interest rates got much lower.
The public, be it cars, guns, watches, TVs, computers, etc. began to tolerate less middleman markup.
They government/economy was beat into needing everyone to carry debt.
Longer term loans became available.
It became easier to get credit.
The overall costs of many luxury items topped off.

So - a lot of things made it easier/more attractive to go whole hog.

However,
Not once have I ever seen someone that makes 500K a year go out and buy a 500K car.
Occasionally, especially if single, or married no kids, I will see then drop 100-125 on one.
A little more frequently in the 85-100K range like an LX or something.
But 9 times out of ten they have a GX, Sequoia, Armada, X5, MDX, etc.

I see people that make 120-150K drop 100K on a car more often.
And most common of all, I see guys say making 80K with overtime dropping 80K on a truck.

Yet the guys making 250K a year seem way more likely to spend 50K on a truck or 4Runner or something

The amount of repos I saw in 2010 to 2013ish is gonna pale in comparison to what's coming to those that financed.

Price will probably not be much better but he should have more of a selection to choose from. Acura just raised MSRP. I can see this happening ever year we have this level of inflation.

All these "direct sales" advocates are completely ignoring the after-sale support that will be needed for the product.   In doing so, they are willfully ignorant (or full of wishful thinking) of how a customer will resolve a vehicle failure successfully post-purchase.

I'm shopping for an f150...
Just like to know why two provinces over from where I live the exact same truck I'm seeing here is $10,000 less.

The service centers at dealerships are profitable.  They could still sell new cars, and would have a brisk trade in/used car section as well.  Some portion of the market is only going to want to buy the exact car they have test driven, will only impulsively buy something they see direct, will need whatever crack deal credit they can only get at the dealership, will need their hand held getting registration, etc.  Others would rather just pick up the phone or go online and order exactly what they want direct.  Without the hassle of a dealership- and - quite likely- just like every other product we have gone to being able to order direct vs having to buy at a local brick and mortar, would save money.

There seem to be a decent amount of people in this thread who I suspect are somehow involved in making a living at a dealership.

If letting individual consumers, private companies, local governments, etc. place orders directly to makers is something no maker wants anything to do with, if it would not save the buyer money, if we truly are getting a massive benefit from only being able to order through dealers, if it’s such a hassle for companies and buyers not to have a dealership in the middle, etc. let the market sort it out.

Don’t have laws in place forcing it.

There are - both active and retired. I'm retired, so take what I say with a grain of salt.  

Simply put, auto manufacturers do NOT want to sell directly to the American consumer. They want to sell them in bulk to the dealership, and let the dealership deal with YOU - the consumer. Overall, they are happy with the dealership model. These laws you keep referring to are in place to protect the dealers from the manufacturers.

I never watch youtube videos of grown ass men making stupid faces for the intro.

I have no problem with what some would call price gouging. If someone wants to charge $1m for a 20 foot garden hose have it. I won’t buy it, but it’s all free market. In mid-2021 I sold my truck, a fairly basic 2014 Nissan Frontier, 2WD. I put it up for auction expecting something between $9k and $10k, I for just over $14k!  Yeah, it only had 94,000 miles on it, in my opinion that’s too much to pay, but that’s what someone was willing to pay. BTW, I started the bidding at $5k, no reserve.

What if you could not buy the hose from Amazon, the We Made The Hose Company, at Costco, at Walmart, from an independent hose dealer, etc.?

What if there were laws in place that said you could only buy the hose from a factory authorized We Made The Hose Company dealer.
The RRP/MSRP/sticker price on the hose is 87K with an invoice of 80K.  
There are 12 factory authorized dealers in your state.
They have applied dealer adjusted markups, or put 100$ worth of sparkles on the hose as a custom package,
And the only available hoses are marked between 100K to 120K.

Unless I have access to the We Made The Hose Company Dealer - and have a chance to offer them 82K instead of the 80K invoice, it is not a free market.

(Granted, if they had to sell at sticker price an affluent flipper could just buy them from the dealer and mark them up-
I’m just trying to make the point that if I don’t have the opportunity to compete with the price the dealer is paying, it’s not a free market.)

The dealerships probably do need some franchise protection laws preventing too many franchises, being forced to take unrealistic amounts of product, etc.
And they claim makers want zero to do with direct sales.

However, let’s say only 5% of buyers have a perfect credit score, are paying cash, and want to call or get on the computer and order a single vehicle, or a dozen for their fleet or whatever.  And can handle their registration, etc. without a big doc fee and an extra hour trying to be sold bullshit.  And opt in or out of a direct extended warranty at a discount.  Basically some pre-screening for a small percentage of optimal buyers.

5% of Toyota/Lexus sales annual US sales would would be about 100,000 vehicles.  If they averaged 1000 dollars more per vehicle, that’s another 100 million in revenue direct to the maker.
The guys that actually develop the 8-speed instead of 5-speed transmission that saves you 100 gallons of gasoline a year, designs an engine that makes more HP and Tq for the same mpg as a precious model, and does it with regular, not premium.  And lots of other things.
Even if it cost them 10 million to staff the program, they still come out 90 million ahead.

And the dealerships are completely free to compete with the direct sales price.

You don't have to over-pay.  

It does appear you have to be ok with blatantly lying sometimes to make a buck in the car business.

But I don’t sell cars, and have never sold cars, so maybe I have no place to judge fleet managers of large volume Ford dealerships posting lies on this very thread.

There are some still selling at MSRP. Did you get a higher than normal payout from insurance? If so, it should even out.

Majority of the vehicle sales people I've bought from over the years were lying scum, rare to find one that seems half honest. Of course sales people probably say the same about customers.


BTW, the snakes in finance are the real thieves.

Bro…

Yeah… Bro got a case of the ass mixed liberally with schadenfreude… big swing and a miss honestly.

You can walk...

Attached File


Actually need VS want.

At this point in time it doesn't seem to be wise to buy unless absolutely necessary.

The way new cars are sold in the US can be considered bloated, but let us consider the following.

You buy a new rig directly from Chevy.  You get it home and everything is fine until it isn't.  You call Chevy with your problem and they tell you to go on their website and find an authorized repair shop that will do the work.  

You call a shop and they tell you that you'll have to wait three weeks because they are busy.  But like health insurance, they really don't want the work because the pay from Chevy sucks.

You sue Chevy.  Chevy never wanted this relationship, but it was forced upon them by class action lawyers.  They do what you want and when you don't like it, you sue Chevy.

Under what situation that that work for anyone other than the lawyers.  

You want to get rid of the dealers.  Great.  But be careful, you may not like what you get instead.

Oh, this entire country operates in fear of law suits.  The most unproductive and overpriced commodity in this country is a class action law suit lawyer.