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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:21:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain Modern problems require modem solutions. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:26:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no putting out the fire, the only thing you can do is contain until it depletes itself. My team was at an air show practice and our tent was right beside an Israeli outfit. It was drizzling in the morning and the Izzy's were charging their lithium batteries in a metal ammo can with the lid slightly open. Of course, there was a short and a fire started. The Navy guys came over and used a chemical powder extinguisher that pretty much filled the ammo can. Of course, it was still drizzling and they left the lid open so about half an hour later when the drizzle had washed away enough of the chemical to expose the cells, the fire started up again. Depending on the exact type of lithium battery, depriving the fire of oxygen can put out the fire *temporarily*. But then you have the problem of how to dispose of a large chunk of useless stuff that can still burn very, very hot. As far as I can tell, there's no easy solution to the problem. At least not yet anyway. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:26:46 PM EDT
[#3]
I would think that battery fires in a EV are more or less metal oxide fires at their core. I say this not only because of the lithium, but also the possibility of titanium shielding or aluminum for weight savings plus heat from the damaged battery stored energy. Add in some rust to help kick the whole thing off.
Seems like they should try using a class D fire retardant. Water might actually contribute to the fire to some degree. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:28:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of the 1,085,800 fire risk recalls to gas cars only 2,800 were due to the fuel system(leak). Everything else was electrical. All EV fires risk recalls were due to the battery. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: EV Thread Luckily EV's are less likely to catch on fire than ICE....just harder to put out. Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? Here is an article based on NTSB data. https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/ All EV fires risk recalls were due to the battery. Recalls yes....but this thread is about actual vehicle fires. Yes EV fires are harder to put out but they also catch on fire less than ICE vehicles....which was what I originally stated. 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:29:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly what I was wondering. SOL really if there is an oxidizer onboard. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I believe lithium batteries provide fuel and oxidizer. Not sure you can stop that. Exactly what I was wondering. SOL really if there is an oxidizer onboard. Typically there isn't an oxidizer on board. In a thermal runaway, the containment can burst/melt and expose the elemental lithium compound layers to oxygen which then proceeds to burn extremely hot. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:35:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: molten sand. fuck  No, you mean, "Molten sand. FUCK YES!". |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:36:53 PM EDT
[#7]
EVs are stupid and pointless.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:42:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain You'll get glass. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 6:55:25 PM EDT
[#9]
<---FF on a rescue/extrication truck that has spent hundreds of hours of training on EV's, all I can say is:
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Posted: 2/1/2023 7:04:54 PM EDT
[#10]
you drive three dump trucks full of sand with an excavator and dump on said fire
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Posted: 2/1/2023 7:08:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's almost like EVs were rushed to the market without knowing all the pitfalls. Batteries are not new. We've known, it's just that no one that matters cares. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 7:18:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: JFC If you hate EVs that much, maybe just don’t buy one? But nope, we have to have brand new anti-EV threads every single day. for a hell of a lot of people, gas engines are literally part of their identity |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 7:31:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: you drive three dump trucks full of sand with an excavator and dump on said fire And what happens then? Pour cement on top to seal it? |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 7:34:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Would a dump truck bed full of dirt dumped on an EV fire smother it out?
Should have read the whole thread. I see the dump truck idea has already been suggested. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 8:07:34 PM EDT
[#15]
I install fire sprinkler systems and when we do data centers that have lithium batteries it's ridiculous how much water we have to get on the fire. I be said it a few times just wait till a parking garage full of EVs catches fire.
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Posted: 2/2/2023 1:10:46 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe lithium batteries provide fuel and oxidizer. Not sure you can stop that. Correct. It will burn even underwater. All you can do is lower the temp while burning and wait for everything combustible to combust. |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 1:30:23 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’ve had this talk around the firehouse table numerous times. EV fire are challenging to say the least. My worst case scenario is we burn down an entire block of houses in a neighborhood because a car fire in a garage (that we can’t put out easily) will quickly spread to houses that were already built way to close to each other. How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? With a few EV's all parked next to each other at the charging stations. |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 1:54:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe lithium batteries provide fuel and oxidizer. Not sure you can stop that. This. I don’t know why anyone is hurrr durrin about how to extinguish an EV battery when they can sustain themselves even when oxygen is removed. And for the hurr durrers saying “well, it’s just a new situation for firefighters. They’ll figure it out!”. Just stop, firefighters know all about fires of this type and how to handle them. Magnesium wheels anyone? |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 2:17:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Honest question. EV fire on a city street and the FD has to use however many thousands of gallons of water to put it out. What terrible chemicals etc. are going into storm drains and lakes to eventually be in our drinking water.
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Posted: 2/2/2023 2:45:48 AM EDT
[#20]
A lot of utter nonsense in this thread just like every thread about Lithium-ion battery fires.
Not that it matters other than it might cost you your life or a loved ones, or cost you your house if you have a cell phone catch fire. It's a thermal runaway chemical reaction that spews hot chemicals into the air which then combust. The battery of course has a lot of stored electrical energy which is what powers the reaction. You have to cool off the battery cells to stop the thermal runaway to stop the production of hot chemicals. Unless you have a tank of liquid nitrogen handy, that probably means a lot of water. "Putting out the fire" isn't going to solve the problem. Dry chemical fire extinguishers won't solve the problem. Piling a bunch of sand, or Class D powder, or even ice, on top won't solve the problem. Automotive Lithium-ion batteries are usually so well contained that it's almost impossible to get water into them to cool them off. The smoke produced is very toxic. Water Mist fire extinguisher is what you want for your home or office to deal with small battery fires, if you can get on it very quickly before a lot of toxic chemicals are produced. Evacuate quickly either way. |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 3:50:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? Sounds like a nightmare scenario. |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 4:09:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's almost like EVs were rushed to the market without knowing all the pitfalls. Lithium fires have been a known hazard for 20 plus years. And now not only are the fireman at hazard with putting out or waiting for reaction to stop but anyone within toxic radius is at hazard also. As hazardous and the liability issues involving the metal the feds have knowingly slowed the use as the toxic burning metal had no practical way of putting out the fire. Now the feds will make the metal a non liability issue and make it so no-one can sue the makers of the metal. |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 4:15:04 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 2/2/2023 5:00:01 AM EDT
[#24]
We need the cone of silence.
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Posted: 2/2/2023 5:21:22 AM EDT
[#25]
so you will need special junk yards for electric vehicles?
if one of those catches on fire the whole yard will go (you would have to allow 10 yard separation between ev cars.) or what if they end up in a dump.. the entire dump will catch fire and nothing will put it out. this is not green.. |
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Posted: 2/2/2023 9:12:12 AM EDT
[#26]
I saw a small-scale variation of the "can't-put-out-the-fire" scenario. I occasionally do torch work at a scrapyard. Working on cutting the body loose from the frame on a couple of GM full-size vans, the wiring harness caught fire. No big deal, dump some water on it. But the flames got into the dash area where there was apparently some magnesium casting and once that got ignited there was no stopping it. We emptied all of the fire extinguishers, sprayed water from a garden hose, dumped dirt on it and, as others have said here, managed to just contain the fire until it burned out. It was like a bigger version of a road flare.
My thought at the time was "if this happened during a bad crash, the driver would burn to death if they were trapped in the wreck. |
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