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Posted: Today 12:55:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EXCATM76]
[#1]
Competition shooting drove innovation in the gun industry for years.
Now I think the CCW and tactical markets drive it more. STI is a great example of a company that changed to gain ground with those markets. The sales for competition guns are dwarfed by the sales of concealed carry guns. Cheap guns always outsell expensive ones. Guns carried by cops are always popular. Competition shooting didn’t drive the popularity of the polymer framed striker fired handgun. Glock marketing to cops did. Everyone else saw their success and has tried to emulate it. |
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Posted: Today 12:57:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Coffin-Nail]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jambalaya: I've gamed a stage before where I lined up 2 targets and shot through them both to save time and ammo. This was a local match and the rules were pretty lax. It has no practical real world application. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jambalaya: Originally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Ajek: You're definitely correct, but in defense of the poster you quoted, stage planning/memorization is still a huge factor. Knowing how to game stages - such as running outside the stage (legal shooting area) to get to the next shooting position quicker - makes the difference between two otherwise equally skilled shooters, and doesn't have a real-world application. Being able to shoot while you're moving efficiently and thinking on your feet while shooting at a high level totally doesn't have any kind of real world application and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Or something. Not what I'm talking about. I mean specifically "gaming" stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Originally Posted By SV650Squid: Learning how to solve problems (stage planning) with a gun, even if untimed, is detrimental to real world applications how? Learning how to tie shoe laces has real world applications that will make you a better shooter .  Let's draw the line at a reasonable point. Competitive shooting is extremely valuable, but the shortcomings should be recognized, or it's done a disservice. I've gamed a stage before where I lined up 2 targets and shot through them both to save time and ammo. This was a local match and the rules were pretty lax. It has no practical real world application. See to me that's showing critical thinking ability and outside of the basic fundamentals should be a close second for a self-defense situation. You seem to be looking at this in a critical way instead of how it might help. This next bit may not apply to you but the biggest attackers of "gaming a stage" are the people who seem to lack that critical thinking ability, so they attack the medium. I often RO local matches and in the run throughs I'll often talk about what I would do on various stages trying to help some of the shooters who I know need it and they'll still often vapor lock and shoot it in the worst way possible. Some of the time I'll see someone shoot it in a way I hadn't thought of and decide that's the best way to do it and say as much. I still want to win but I want my squad to do good as well. ETA: Just for clarity I'm not talking about any kind of coaching after the beep. |
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Posted: Today 1:00:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Coffin-Nail: See to me that's showing critical thinking ability and outside of the basic fundamentals should be a close second for a self-defense situation. You seem to be looking at this in a critical way instead of how it might help. This next bit may not apply to you but the biggest attackers of "gaming a stage" are the people who seem to lack that critical thinking ability, so they attack the medium. I often RO local matches and in the run throughs I'll often talk about what I would do on various stages trying to help some of the shooters who I know need it and they'll still often vapor lock and shoot it in the worst way possible. Some of the time I'll see someone shoot it in a way I hadn't thought of and decide that's the best way to do it and say as much. I still want to win but I want my squad to do good as well. Exactly this. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: Today 1:01:45 PM EDT
[#4]
I think there are people that think a carry gun isn’t good if it can’t win a stage or take out an entire gang.
I make sure I always have a gun. Then, I try to carry the most gun I can carry for the given situation. Competition or gamesmanship don’t play a role. |
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Posted: Today 1:06:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scott-S6: The SP01 Shadow was/is issued to special units in a few countries. Ditching the rail would have eliminated the Shadow2 for those customers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scott-S6: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Scott-S6: It's got a rail because it's an issued duty gun for some agencies in Europe. OP's question is rather more interesting if we talk about duty and competition guns, I think. I don’t think anyone is issuing Shadow 2’s. The SP01 Shadow was/is issued to special units in a few countries. Ditching the rail would have eliminated the Shadow2 for those customers. Examples? They deleted the firing pin block so I would think that would eliminate it from being selected as an issued firearm. |
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Posted: Today 1:15:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-180: I think there are people that think a carry gun isn’t good if it can’t win a stage or take out an entire gang. I make sure I always have a gun. Then, I try to carry the most gun I can carry for the given situation. Competition or gamesmanship don’t play a role. What competitive shooting does for myself and others is that it gives you a realistic frame of comparison to judge what level of realistic speed and accuracy a gun is capable of when you’re shooting it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: Today 1:18:22 PM EDT
[#7]
There are so many more CCW options now than when I started getting involved in it 20 plus years ago. It’s crazy to think about.
If competitive shooting “negatively” influenced those options it has a funny way of showing it. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: Today 1:51:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SV650Squid]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Not what I'm talking about. I mean specifically "gaming" stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Learning how to tie shoe laces has real world applications that will make you a better shooter . Let's draw the line at a reasonable point. Competitive shooting is extremely valuable, but the shortcomings should be recognized, or it's done a disservice. Let's draw a parallel. Do you think a high level MMA fighter would fare better or worse than the average person? Why would a competitive fighter and a competitive shooter fare differently? ETA your suppositions expose your lack of training. |
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Posted: Today 6:06:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: What are the shortcoming of learning to shoot faster and more accurately? Let's draw a parallel. Do you think a high level MMA fighter would fare better or worse than the average person? Why would a competitive fighter and a competitive shooter fare differently? ETA your suppositions expose your lack of training. I’m still waiting to hear an explanation of what “gaming” a stage is. This is a common complaint in IDPA that people also can’t define. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: Today 6:15:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: I'm still waiting to hear an explanation of what "gaming" a stage is. This is a common complaint in IDPA that people also can't define. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By SV650Squid: What are the shortcoming of learning to shoot faster and more accurately? Let's draw a parallel. Do you think a high level MMA fighter would fare better or worse than the average person? Why would a competitive fighter and a competitive shooter fare differently? ETA your suppositions expose your lack of training. I'm still waiting to hear an explanation of what "gaming" a stage is. This is a common complaint in IDPA that people also can't define. |
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USA
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Posted: Today 6:35:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: I’m still waiting to hear an explanation of what “gaming” a stage is. This is a common complaint in IDPA that people also can’t define. I think IDPA should let you drop loaded mags |
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Posted: Today 7:06:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Missilegeek]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: They are. We just have to avoid telling the non gun nut gun carrier that he needs to add a RDS, Comp and +5 baseplate to his perfectly suitable carry gun. Otherwise he might do so then leave it in his truck because it’s not so handy and easy to hide anymore. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By ClayHollisterTT: Carry guns are better than ever. They are. We just have to avoid telling the non gun nut gun carrier that he needs to add a RDS, Comp and +5 baseplate to his perfectly suitable carry gun. Otherwise he might do so then leave it in his truck because it’s not so handy and easy to hide anymore. Or just own multiple guns, like most gun owners do. My most carried gun is 13+1, has a flashlight and dot, is light and is extremely easy to conceal. It is about the same size, but much lighter than my snubnose revolver. The shootable and easy to carry P365 and all the derivatives has been a nice addition and is the main reason there are more and better carry options than ever. I have shot this pistol at IDPA and didn't do too terribly.  I also carry the gun I shoot the most in competition. I do shoot this gun much better and should carry it more. But I don't also feel like it. The sub compact is much more convenient.  I'll also carry a 1911, G45, G19, G17, G21 or K6S when I feel like it. What gun is "annoyingly big or heavy" has a lot of factors to it. 1. Personal preference 2. Size and body type 3. Belt/Holster 4. Clothing 5. Overall size and weight of the gun RDS is basically a non factor compared to the rest. |
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Posted: Today 7:25:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ajek]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: What are the shortcoming of learning to shoot faster and more accurately? Let's draw a parallel. Do you think a high level MMA fighter would fare better or worse than the average person? Why would a competitive fighter and a competitive shooter fare differently? ETA your suppositions expose your lack of training. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: Originally Posted By Ajek: Not what I'm talking about. I mean specifically "gaming" stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Learning how to tie shoe laces has real world applications that will make you a better shooter . Let's draw the line at a reasonable point. Competitive shooting is extremely valuable, but the shortcomings should be recognized, or it's done a disservice. Let's draw a parallel. Do you think a high level MMA fighter would fare better or worse than the average person? Why would a competitive fighter and a competitive shooter fare differently? ETA your suppositions expose your lack of training. ETA: I'm rewriting what I wrote. I originally made a snarky reply because I assumed disingenuity from your post. "What are the shortcoming of learning to shoot faster and more accurately?" That's not what I said. Please re-read my post. |
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Posted: Today 7:29:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Missilegeek]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Not what I’m talking about. I mean specifically “gaming” stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Not what I’m talking about. I mean specifically “gaming” stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By SV650Squid: What are the shortcoming of learning to shoot faster and more accurately? Let's draw a parallel. Do you think a high level MMA fighter would fare better or worse than the average person? Why would a competitive fighter and a competitive shooter fare differently? ETA your suppositions expose your lack of training. I’m still waiting to hear an explanation of what “gaming” a stage is. This is a common complaint in IDPA that people also can’t define. I'll chime in here Some stages, a lot of the USPSA qualifiers for example, are very simple and require virtually no planning, and have no way to be "gamed." Stand in the box, draw and shoot targets in front of you as fast as you dare. Other stages are more complex with movement and cover, and benefit from stage plannjng. Stage planning: observe your surroundings, take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to most quickly and effectively shoot the scenario. Self defense shooting: observe your surroundings, either react to an immediate threat, or take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s). I have to admit that when I first started competition, I viewed the stage planning as negative training. But I have come to learn that it isn't. It teaches you some skills valuable in a gun fight. The biggest one is how to formulate a plan. I make it a point to try to ID the targets and figure out a plan as fast as possible. And anyone who has been to a competition can easily see that the guys who stage plan better are also the better shooters. Especially shooting on the move and better at staying on the move. Those are good skills to have in a gun fight. |
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Posted: Today 7:36:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Coffin-Nail: See to me that's showing critical thinking ability and outside of the basic fundamentals should be a close second for a self-defense situation. You seem to be looking at this in a critical way instead of how it might help. This next bit may not apply to you but the biggest attackers of "gaming a stage" are the people who seem to lack that critical thinking ability, so they attack the medium. I often RO local matches and in the run throughs I'll often talk about what I would do on various stages trying to help some of the shooters who I know need it and they'll still often vapor lock and shoot it in the worst way possible. Some of the time I'll see someone shoot it in a way I hadn't thought of and decide that's the best way to do it and say as much. I still want to win but I want my squad to do good as well. ETA: Just for clarity I'm not talking about any kind of coaching after the beep. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Coffin-Nail: Originally Posted By Jambalaya: Originally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Ajek: You're definitely correct, but in defense of the poster you quoted, stage planning/memorization is still a huge factor. Knowing how to game stages - such as running outside the stage (legal shooting area) to get to the next shooting position quicker - makes the difference between two otherwise equally skilled shooters, and doesn't have a real-world application. Being able to shoot while you're moving efficiently and thinking on your feet while shooting at a high level totally doesn't have any kind of real world application and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Or something. Not what I'm talking about. I mean specifically "gaming" stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Originally Posted By SV650Squid: Learning how to solve problems (stage planning) with a gun, even if untimed, is detrimental to real world applications how? Learning how to tie shoe laces has real world applications that will make you a better shooter . Let's draw the line at a reasonable point. Competitive shooting is extremely valuable, but the shortcomings should be recognized, or it's done a disservice. I've gamed a stage before where I lined up 2 targets and shot through them both to save time and ammo. This was a local match and the rules were pretty lax. It has no practical real world application. See to me that's showing critical thinking ability and outside of the basic fundamentals should be a close second for a self-defense situation. You seem to be looking at this in a critical way instead of how it might help. This next bit may not apply to you but the biggest attackers of "gaming a stage" are the people who seem to lack that critical thinking ability, so they attack the medium. I often RO local matches and in the run throughs I'll often talk about what I would do on various stages trying to help some of the shooters who I know need it and they'll still often vapor lock and shoot it in the worst way possible. Some of the time I'll see someone shoot it in a way I hadn't thought of and decide that's the best way to do it and say as much. I still want to win but I want my squad to do good as well. ETA: Just for clarity I'm not talking about any kind of coaching after the beep. Implying I'm not capable of critical thinking is cute, but I have no problem coming up with a plan for a stage - even when that involves gaming it. |
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Posted: Today 7:36:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: I’m still waiting to hear an explanation of what “gaming” a stage is. This is a common complaint in IDPA that people also can’t define. Exactly what I put in my previous post: running outside the stage (legal shooting area) to get to the next shooting position quicker. I didn't even bring up race guns, belts, or other gear. |
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Posted: Today 7:41:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ajek]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I'll chime in here Some stages, a lot of the USPSA qualifiers for example, are very simple and require virtually no planning, and have no way to be "gamed." Stand in the box, draw and shoot targets in front of you as fast as you dare. Other stages are more complex with movement and cover, and benefit from stage plannjng. Stage planning: observe your surroundings, take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to most quickly and effectively shoot the scenario. Self defense shooting: observe your surroundings, either react to an immediate threat, or take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s). I have to admit that when I first started competition, I viewed the stage planning as negative training. But I have come to learn that it isn't. It teaches you some skills valuable in a gun fight. The biggest one is how to formulate a plan. I make it a point to try to ID the targets and figure out a plan as fast as possible. And anyone who has been to a competition can easily see that the guys who stage plan better are also the better shooters. Especially shooting on the move and better at staying on the move. Those are good skills to have in a gun fight. I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. |
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Posted: Today 7:51:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I'll chime in here Some stages, a lot of the USPSA qualifiers for example, are very simple and require virtually no planning, and have no way to be "gamed." Stand in the box, draw and shoot targets in front of you as fast as you dare. Other stages are more complex with movement and cover, and benefit from stage plannjng. Stage planning: observe your surroundings, take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to most quickly and effectively shoot the scenario. Self defense shooting: observe your surroundings, either react to an immediate threat, or take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s). I have to admit that when I first started competition, I viewed the stage planning as negative training. But I have come to learn that it isn't. It teaches you some skills valuable in a gun fight. The biggest one is how to formulate a plan. I make it a point to try to ID the targets and figure out a plan as fast as possible. And anyone who has been to a competition can easily see that the guys who stage plan better are also the better shooters. Especially shooting on the move and better at staying on the move. Those are good skills to have in a gun fight. I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Are you a traveling salesman or something? Are you really in totally unfamiliar settings that often? I don't get out much these days. If I'm ever defending myself, it's likely in a place I know much better than the USPSA stage I just walked up on 5 minutes ago. Will you consider that what you posted about timing is absolutely wrong, and people do in fact often get time to plan during self defense scenarios? Otherwise I can post lots and lots of examples of people waiting for their preferred time and situation to respond to a threat. And as I've already said, there are plenty of competition stages that require zero planning. Stand and shoot. Just as if you were reacting to an imminent threat or threats. |
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Posted: Today 7:56:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Stage planning is just practice before application. Are you suggesting the practice is detrimental to becoming more proficient? |
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Posted: Today 8:04:33 PM EDT
[#20]
It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap
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Posted: Today 8:18:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Are you a traveling salesman or something? Are you really in totally unfamiliar settings that often? I don't get out much these days. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I'll chime in here Some stages, a lot of the USPSA qualifiers for example, are very simple and require virtually no planning, and have no way to be "gamed." Stand in the box, draw and shoot targets in front of you as fast as you dare. Other stages are more complex with movement and cover, and benefit from stage plannjng. Stage planning: observe your surroundings, take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to most quickly and effectively shoot the scenario. Self defense shooting: observe your surroundings, either react to an immediate threat, or take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s). I have to admit that when I first started competition, I viewed the stage planning as negative training. But I have come to learn that it isn't. It teaches you some skills valuable in a gun fight. The biggest one is how to formulate a plan. I make it a point to try to ID the targets and figure out a plan as fast as possible. And anyone who has been to a competition can easily see that the guys who stage plan better are also the better shooters. Especially shooting on the move and better at staying on the move. Those are good skills to have in a gun fight. I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Are you a traveling salesman or something? Are you really in totally unfamiliar settings that often? I don't get out much these days. Truly, not so much these days, but I used to travel extensively for work and was in a new city/town every week for ~48 weeks of the year. However, I did just move to a completely new town in a state I've never been to before, so it's all completely fresh right now. If I'm ever defending myself, it's likely in a place I know much better than the USPSA stage I just walked up on 5 minutes ago. If the people attacking you stand in your pre-planned spot and don't move, I guess you have a point. Will you consider that what you posted about timing is absolutely wrong, and people do in fact often get time to plan during self defense scenarios? Otherwise I can post lots and lots of examples of people waiting for their preferred time and situation to respond to a threat. No, I absolutely disagree. I don't know, though, if you're going to pick circumstances where, for example, an officer came under fire from a suspect, retreated to the rear of his car, waited a few moments, then engaged and killed the bad guy, and use that to prove the officer "had time" to plan. That's not at all in the spirit of the discussion and doesn't relate to the experience of planning a stage at a USPSA match. |
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Posted: Today 8:21:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NorCalRT: Stage planning is just practice before application. Are you suggesting the practice is detrimental to becoming more proficient? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NorCalRT: Originally Posted By Ajek: I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Stage planning is just practice before application. Are you suggesting the practice is detrimental to becoming more proficient? Clearly, that is exactly what I'm suggesting. You got me. Well done. 
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Posted: Today 8:31:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Coffin-Nail]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Implying I'm not capable of critical thinking is cute, but I have no problem coming up with a plan for a stage - even when that involves gaming it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By Coffin-Nail: Originally Posted By Jambalaya: Originally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Ajek: You're definitely correct, but in defense of the poster you quoted, stage planning/memorization is still a huge factor. Knowing how to game stages - such as running outside the stage (legal shooting area) to get to the next shooting position quicker - makes the difference between two otherwise equally skilled shooters, and doesn't have a real-world application. Being able to shoot while you're moving efficiently and thinking on your feet while shooting at a high level totally doesn't have any kind of real world application and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Or something. Not what I'm talking about. I mean specifically "gaming" stages. It has nothing to do with shooting and moving in the real world. Originally Posted By SV650Squid: Learning how to solve problems (stage planning) with a gun, even if untimed, is detrimental to real world applications how? Learning how to tie shoe laces has real world applications that will make you a better shooter . Let's draw the line at a reasonable point. Competitive shooting is extremely valuable, but the shortcomings should be recognized, or it's done a disservice. I've gamed a stage before where I lined up 2 targets and shot through them both to save time and ammo. This was a local match and the rules were pretty lax. It has no practical real world application. See to me that's showing critical thinking ability and outside of the basic fundamentals should be a close second for a self-defense situation. You seem to be looking at this in a critical way instead of how it might help. This next bit may not apply to you but the biggest attackers of "gaming a stage" are the people who seem to lack that critical thinking ability, so they attack the medium. I often RO local matches and in the run throughs I'll often talk about what I would do on various stages trying to help some of the shooters who I know need it and they'll still often vapor lock and shoot it in the worst way possible. Some of the time I'll see someone shoot it in a way I hadn't thought of and decide that's the best way to do it and say as much. I still want to win but I want my squad to do good as well. ETA: Just for clarity I'm not talking about any kind of coaching after the beep. Implying I'm not capable of critical thinking is cute, but I have no problem coming up with a plan for a stage - even when that involves gaming it. It wasn't even your post that I was responding to directly and if you clearly read what I wrote means you're putting yourself in the category of "biggest attackers." I didn't specifically address it towards anyone and worded it in a way that if you took it personally it means you have the issue not me. ETA: Expand the quote for the emphasis in bold. |
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Posted: Today 8:38:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap Oh no you are gonna make them mad.... |
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Posted: Today 8:44:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Coffin-Nail]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RedFox1911: Oh no you are gonna make them mad.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RedFox1911: Originally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap Oh no you are gonna make them mad.... I think duty gun vs CCW are slightly different conversations but a completely fair criticism though I'd say that's more on the side of an engineering failure or just maleficence in marketing for something that's supposed to be a duty gun. I do remember back in the day when series 80 guns suffered failures by being fired in awkward positions where the drop safety wouldn't allow guns to fire. Again another point for CCW guns being much better now than they ever were. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: Today 8:50:14 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RedFox1911: Oh no you are gonna make them mad.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RedFox1911: Originally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap Oh no you are gonna make them mad.... People didn’t crap on 1911s for all these years but now I think it’s just an excuse to crap on a certain brand. |
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Posted: Today 8:50:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Truly, not so much these days, but I used to travel extensively for work and was in a new city/town every week for ~48 weeks of the year. However, I did just move to a completely new town in a state I've never been to before, so it's all completely fresh right now. If the people attacking you stand in your pre-planned spot and don't move, I guess you have a point. No, I absolutely disagree. I don't know, though, if you're going to pick circumstances where, for example, an officer came under fire from a suspect, retreated to the rear of his car, waited a few moments, then engaged and killed the bad guy, and use that to prove the officer "had time" to plan. That's not at all in the spirit of the discussion and doesn't relate to the experience of planning a stage at a USPSA match. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By Ajek: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I'll chime in here Some stages, a lot of the USPSA qualifiers for example, are very simple and require virtually no planning, and have no way to be "gamed." Stand in the box, draw and shoot targets in front of you as fast as you dare. Other stages are more complex with movement and cover, and benefit from stage plannjng. Stage planning: observe your surroundings, take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to most quickly and effectively shoot the scenario. Self defense shooting: observe your surroundings, either react to an immediate threat, or take some of the time available from a few seconds to a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s). I have to admit that when I first started competition, I viewed the stage planning as negative training. But I have come to learn that it isn't. It teaches you some skills valuable in a gun fight. The biggest one is how to formulate a plan. I make it a point to try to ID the targets and figure out a plan as fast as possible. And anyone who has been to a competition can easily see that the guys who stage plan better are also the better shooters. Especially shooting on the move and better at staying on the move. Those are good skills to have in a gun fight. I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Are you a traveling salesman or something? Are you really in totally unfamiliar settings that often? I don't get out much these days. Truly, not so much these days, but I used to travel extensively for work and was in a new city/town every week for ~48 weeks of the year. However, I did just move to a completely new town in a state I've never been to before, so it's all completely fresh right now. If I'm ever defending myself, it's likely in a place I know much better than the USPSA stage I just walked up on 5 minutes ago. If the people attacking you stand in your pre-planned spot and don't move, I guess you have a point. Will you consider that what you posted about timing is absolutely wrong, and people do in fact often get time to plan during self defense scenarios? Otherwise I can post lots and lots of examples of people waiting for their preferred time and situation to respond to a threat. No, I absolutely disagree. I don't know, though, if you're going to pick circumstances where, for example, an officer came under fire from a suspect, retreated to the rear of his car, waited a few moments, then engaged and killed the bad guy, and use that to prove the officer "had time" to plan. That's not at all in the spirit of the discussion and doesn't relate to the experience of planning a stage at a USPSA match. If you pay attention to people, they tend to congregate in same places, and they tend to move through high traffic areas with alarming consistency. So yeah, predicting where the people will be isn't that hard. The only good point you've made here is about movement when the fight is on. This is pretty well simulated in a lot of stages that have far more targets than you would likely face in a realistic scenario. What happens is, you will probably miss a lot and have to re-engage. So a stage with 6+ targets where you and the targets are in different spots, simulates movement in a gun fight somewhat decently. Then there are the actual moving targets and use of virginia count to simulate fleeting opportunities. It's not perfect, but better than eating cheetos. |
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Posted: Today 8:53:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap 
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Posted: Today 8:55:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Missilegeek]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HighPlains1911: People didn’t crap on 1911s for all these years but now I think it’s just an excuse to crap on a certain brand. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HighPlains1911: Originally Posted By RedFox1911: Originally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap Oh no you are gonna make them mad.... People didn’t crap on 1911s for all these years but now I think it’s just an excuse to crap on a certain brand. Oh no I dropped my gun directly onto the muzzle from shoulder height and it put a hole in the ground. Oh noes. The humidity. Since it is such an amazing safety concern, this must be a flaw with some new and unpopular gun only. |
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Posted: Today 9:03:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: I'm not sure either, but if I'm in a real gunfight, I would also want to game every iota of advantage there too. God damn right. |
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Posted: Today 9:04:00 PM EDT
[#31]
@Never_A_Wick
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Posted: Today 9:07:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Exactly what I put in my previous post: running outside the stage (legal shooting area) to get to the next shooting position quicker. I didn't even bring up race guns, belts, or other gear. Moving from one place to another is “gaming”? |
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Posted: Today 9:09:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap Like a 1911? |
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Posted: Today 9:12:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: I didn't even bring up race guns, belts, or other gear. You can shoot whatever class you want, and there's no rules against using your daily carry holster or belt. I regularly see people shooting uspsa with IWB holsters. The majority of IDPA shooters here do that. |
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Posted: Today 9:14:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: I hope if I'm ever in a self-defense shooting that I get "a few minutes to devise a plan to quickly and effectively shoot the threat(s)." Maybe a few walk-throughs, too, just like a stage walk-through. Yes. Training and then putting into practice the ability to work efficiently while under stress and then adapting on the fly has zero application in the real world. Being able to look at conditions and understand the your ability to perform while conducting tasks efficiently simply doesn’t translate unfortunately. |
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Posted: Today 9:16:27 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Like a 1911? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By R_S: It seems that certain foolish people like to use pistols without a firing pin block (drop safety) because they have a lighter trigger. That's bad for competition or carry. Then you have that company advertising their drop safety free pistol as a "duty gun" while charging top dollar for a death trap Like a 1911? Exactamundo. What is probably the most commonly carried gun over the last 120+ years in the US, is now being dubbed unsafe to carry. |
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Posted: Today 9:16:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: You can shoot whatever class you want, and there's no rules against using your daily carry holster or belt. I regularly see people shooting uspsa with IWB holsters. The majority of IDPA shooters here do that. Sometimes I shoot matches with my carry gun and EDC holster. That’s the best way to ensure everything is going to work the way you need it to real-world. |
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Posted: Today 9:17:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: @Never_A_Wick Thanks for the tag, I have been working or I surely would have weighed in by now. Time to crack my knuckles and start at page 1. 
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Posted: Today 9:18:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Exactamundo. What is probably the most commonly carried gun over the last 120+ years in the US, is now being dubbed unsafe to carry. #TopDollarDeathTrap Seriously, @R_S is a treasure of GD. Don’t go change’in. |
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Posted: Today 9:19:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Give me a specific example. Safety is a paramount concern in the shooting sports. I don't get the question either. OP should cite examples. FAR fewer people get shot at matches than outside of matches. (ETA I have not read the thread, just starting at page 1 for the shit show and inevitable ignorance) |
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Posted: Today 9:20:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Thanks for the tag, I have been working or I surely would have weighed in by now. Time to crack my knuckles and start at page 1. You’ll love it. There are some real gems in here. |
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Posted: Today 9:20:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slowkota1: I ain't carrying this brick! Not sure why they even have rails on em  https://i.imgur.com/27Mc7Qm.jpeg Belts a lil different too lmao https://i.imgur.com/SHepvVN.jpeg Just because Optics Ready models are more and more common on carry guns, I don't think thats a result of competition trickle down. Gah, ditch those grips and get some ouchy palm swells from Patriot Defense. Way better, the factory panels are trash. They do add about 8 ounces of weight though, if you think that's a bad thing. |
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USA
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Posted: Today 9:20:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Not really, I don't buy race guns for carry guns and I can shoot a stock trigger.
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Posted: Today 9:20:38 PM EDT
[#44]
No, have advanced it
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Posted: Today 9:27:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jambalaya: Well things like the shift away from some of the DAO and DA/SA actions, for starters. Few competitive shooters are going to want 2 different trigger pulls. The Shadow 2/Tanfoglio is still a very popular option in Carry Optics, and the DA pull is not much of an issue with practice. |
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Posted: Today 9:31:35 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dustinf: Just my opinion, but shooting on the clock makes bad habits. Accuracy becomes less of a factor, and it’s more about stage planning/memorization. My first force on force training class really opened my eyes. Accuracy is less of a factor if you're not trying to win/don't care about winning the match. |
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Posted: Today 9:33:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By deanwormer: better to just embrace the game. you'll learn how to shoot and it will transfer over to even your micro compact. If tactards understood this, there would be no arguing. Nobody who shoots USPSA or IDPA claims that they are training for a real life firefight, however they do assert that the skills gained and honed in competition shooting will be a benefit in said firefight, which is correct. |
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Posted: Today 9:36:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: @merick What game is that? bUlLsEyE sHoOtIng
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Posted: Today 9:37:29 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: You’re definitely correct, but in defense of the poster you quoted, stage planning/memorization is still a huge factor. Knowing how to game stages - such as running outside the stage (legal shooting area) to get to the next shooting position quicker - makes the difference between two otherwise equally skilled shooters, and doesn’t have a real-world application. Running outside of a fault line or shooting box isn't gaming at all. Sometimes it's even required as part of the stage design. |
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Posted: Today 9:37:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Why does every thread that even mentions competitive shooting turn into this bs about haw bad USPSA and IDPA are for training. They aren’t tactical training, but they are way better than how most people practice that aren’t in the shooting sports.
A master class shooter doesn’t equal a gun fighter, but they are a lot closer than guys that just shoot stationary targets from one position. Is good training better than shooting sports, you bet. But even my local club has vehicles to shoot from, moving targets, simulated walls etc.. Most people don’t have access to all of that when they go to the range. Plus matches make you try things you probably don’t practice on your own. You don’t have to shoot to win, if you want to work on your tactics go through the stage slow, shoot a pocket sized gun if you want. I probably haven’t shot 5 matches in the last 18 years, BTW. I don’t like a lot of the rules. I don’t like my local club much. I think mandatory reloads are stupid. But it is way better practice then most get otherwise. I don’t do matches because there is only one close to me and there matches don’t align with my schedule. To the original point of the thread, we have the best carry gun options ever. Competition shooting probably has the least impact on handgun gun design than it has since IPSC was formed. One of the founding ideas of IPSC was to see what guns, gear and techniques worked the best. It’s still doing that. The best info on that comes out of nationals every year. The same can be said for precision rifle and PRS. I have a P365 I can shoot almost as well as an G19. I’ve got a Staccato C2 that I can shoot better than anything else that’s not a steel framed 2011, it’s the size of a G19 and weighs a few ounces more. I can’t imagine guns getting much better for concealed carry than those two and others like them. They still have to be big enough to hold onto after all. Don’t even get me started on handgun mounted optics and why we wouldn’t be anywhere with them if it wasn’t for USPSA and the gear race. |
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