Kel-Tec’s secret is out: The KS7 shotgun and CP33 pistol are here - Page 7

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kel-Tec’s secret is out: The KS7 shotgun and CP33 pistol are here (Page 7 of 9)

Posted: 1/15/2019 7:46:16 PM EDT

[#1]

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With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

IIRC, at one time they also had an aerospace parts machine shop side gig. KT plane parts, what could go wrong!

Posted: 1/15/2019 7:47:41 PM EDT

[#2]

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By the way, not a huge fan of the KSG, but that KS7 looks pretty awesome (size and weight of an MP5A2!) and if KelTec manages to get these on dealers' shelves in quantity and retailing at or under $400.00, they will do very well on them. Think of them as a Shockwave competitor.

I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

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Gives me hope there will be an RDB "arm pistol." It is *JUST* under 13.5" from the trigger shoe to the rear of the receiver when no buttpad is mounted.

Posted: 1/15/2019 7:50:03 PM EDT

[#3]

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Dealers aren't making shit for profit on the sale price of a vehicle. Apples to oranges. All the money in cars is in dealer/manufacturer financing. That's why they'll give you a better price if you agree to finance through them.

Nobody is saying Kel-Tec should be playing follow the leader with neckbeards on GunBroker. We're saying they should do a little research before establishing their MSRP and what their dealer pricing is going to be based on what they're able to supply.

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It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer.

So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products.

Yup just like car manufacturers can't sell to the public and the big profits from hard to get stuff is made by the dealers not the manufacturer.

Dealers aren't making shit for profit on the sale price of a vehicle. Apples to oranges. All the money in cars is in dealer/manufacturer financing. That's why they'll give you a better price if you agree to finance through them.

Nobody is saying Kel-Tec should be playing follow the leader with neckbeards on GunBroker. We're saying they should do a little research before establishing their MSRP and what their dealer pricing is going to be based on what they're able to supply.

So, they shouldn't be selling the RDB for <$700 now? Or they should have fucked over distributors who bought them repeatedly by dropping the price down incrementally from the initial ~$1500 they were going for in the initial run? MSRP is still $1200, btw...

Posted: 1/15/2019 7:52:46 PM EDT

[#4]

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You have a business degree, and you think that kel tec doesn't have a successful business plan?

Laughable.

You clearly do not have a business degree. if you don't understand what side of the economy producers of goods are on.

The wealth side. They create wealth. Kel Tec successfully accomplishes that according to their established, controlled-growth model.

Its so simple that even someone without a business degree can get it, so what is your excuse?

They execute their plan according to their model in accordance with their corporate values.

You don't understand that, Mr. Business Degree?

Sounds like you have a BS in Business, but it isn't a degree.

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I have a BBA from Texas A&M University Mays School of Business

They can do whatever they want. I am also free to point out where they can and should be doing better. If you set a business plan goal of 5% growth when 50% growth was easily attainable with little risk, that would be terrible goal setting. You grow, you create more jobs, and create more wealth for more people. So kind of silly for you to think I don't understand wealth creation. My point is they could have been creating more for more people all the while making more customers. It all goes hand in hand.

Posted: 1/15/2019 7:55:29 PM EDT

[#5]

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What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

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Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

Which gun do they make can't you get ahold of.

What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

So, you'd rather their products be true vapor ware, completely unavailable & not for sale, until they have a full 10,000 unit production run crated up for distributors, likely adding 6mos-1yr to the release timeline? Because that's how the big companies do it. For a company like KT known for teething pains, I should think that scenario would be downright terrifying, and could possibly sink entire product lines (Remington R51, *cough-cough*). Great way to piss off distributors as well, when early guns with problems start sitting on their shelves not moving, unless they go to the trouble of a full-scale recall. User 'beta testing' is arguably a more ethical way of getting product onto market, even if it doesn't lend you a halo of "perfect competent badassness" --if that's a foregone conclusion regardless due to your price point & production choices, it's madness to proceed otherwise.

Posted: 1/15/2019 8:00:42 PM EDT

[#6]

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You were making it out like KelTec was alone in the way they delivered product and they are not. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure either the 42 or 43 was all but unobtanium long after they announced it. While maybe not spread out I as long as KelTec Glock absolutely goes through huge dry spells as well but I don't hear you commenting on their business model.

I forgot one of the best examples from my first list Springfield. I remember having dealers that did their stocking dealer program for 1911's and still didn't have all their product when the promo rolled around the next year. M1As were the same way.

You still haven't answered my question about which gun you weren't or aren't able to get ahold of or was it just a made up premise?

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If I really sat down I could actually make a pretty big list including all the big boys. They have all had similar incidents. One I remember vividly was the Ruger gold labels or just about anything made prior to the last decade
Barrett everything at one point or another
Desert Tech as mentioned
Taurus 500 s&w
Remington 105cti

Like I said I could sit down with a few industry people and make a list a mile long.

And those companies should have received due criticism for fucking up product launches too.

You were making it out like KelTec was alone in the way they delivered product and they are not. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure either the 42 or 43 was all but unobtanium long after they announced it. While maybe not spread out I as long as KelTec Glock absolutely goes through huge dry spells as well but I don't hear you commenting on their business model.

I forgot one of the best examples from my first list Springfield. I remember having dealers that did their stocking dealer program for 1911's and still didn't have all their product when the promo rolled around the next year. M1As were the same way.

You still haven't answered my question about which gun you weren't or aren't able to get ahold of or was it just a made up premise?

Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price.

Posted: 1/15/2019 8:05:07 PM EDT

[#7]

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LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model.

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So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research.

Posted: 1/15/2019 8:16:48 PM EDT

[#8]

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So, you'd rather their products be true vapor ware, completely unavailable & not for sale, until they have a full 10,000 unit production run crated up for distributors, likely adding 6mos-1yr to the release timeline? Because that's how the big companies do it. For a company like KT known for teething pains, I should think that scenario would be downright terrifying, and could possibly sink entire product lines (Remington R51, *cough-cough*). Great way to piss off distributors as well, when early guns with problems start sitting on their shelves not moving, unless they go to the trouble of a full-scale recall. User 'beta testing' is arguably a more ethical way of getting product onto market, even if it doesn't lend you a halo of "perfect competent badassness" --if that's a foregone conclusion regardless due to your price point & production choices, it's madness to proceed otherwise.

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The big boys do it that way because it helps gauge demand and help them produce accordingly. How do you think they got to be the big boys? Kel-Tec's products start as vapor ware and continue to be vapor ware for all intents and purposes for an inordinate amount of time. Had they actually put some effort into some moderate (not over-expansion) they'd be able to scale production much better and get product to market and available to all the people wanting to get their hands on it.

Posted: 1/15/2019 8:18:20 PM EDT

[#9]

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Gives me hope there will be an RDB "arm pistol." It is *JUST* under 13.5" from the trigger shoe to the rear of the receiver when no buttpad is mounted.

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If they make the receiver an item that can be bought separately it's a possibility. I hope they do.

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:56:55 AM EDT

[#10]

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video game bullshit

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Brilliant post. The gun in your profile pic is ancient outdated bullshit.

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:03:19 AM EDT

[#11]

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Gives me hope there will be an RDB "arm pistol." It is *JUST* under 13.5" from the trigger shoe to the rear of the receiver when no buttpad is mounted.

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By the way, not a huge fan of the KSG, but that KS7 looks pretty awesome (size and weight of an MP5A2!) and if KelTec manages to get these on dealers' shelves in quantity and retailing at or under $400.00, they will do very well on them. Think of them as a Shockwave competitor.

I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

Gives me hope there will be an RDB "arm pistol." It is *JUST* under 13.5" from the trigger shoe to the rear of the receiver when no buttpad is mounted.

I'm not sure why you'd want an RDB pistol, when the Survival is barely 26" overall with a stock, and under 6 lbs in weight.

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:07:29 AM EDT

[#12]

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https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif

The guy doesn't really have a great track record.

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Oh please GTFO of here. You better be a John fucking Browning, a Rockefeller or Warren mothefriking Buffet. If it is so easy and obvious why the fuck all these gun companies fail including those backed by large Capital Investments fail? He may not be doing it how YOU want it but don't come here and preach he's a failure.

Posted: 1/16/2019 2:13:07 AM EDT

[#13]

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https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif

So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research.

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LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model.

https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif

So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research.

I took an entrepreneurship class at WSU at one point. They had a bunch of the local guys who have made it big. George Ablah, at least one of the Carney brothers (Pizza Hut), George Ablah and some others IIRC. The one thing I got from most of them was they have almost all crashed and gone bankrupt multiple times. It's part of the game. What sets them apart is starting something new, trying again, and managing the risk to the level they can handle. It sounds to me like Kel-tec has hit that point. Steady consistent growth sounds good to me. We've been seeing a lot of gun companies who were doing "safe" growth as everything was hot who discovered it really wasn't safe.

Posted: 1/16/2019 3:12:02 AM EDT

[#14]

If the KS7 feed mini shells that would be cool

Posted: 1/16/2019 3:31:16 AM EDT

[#15]

Make the KS7 in 20ga and that would be cool too

Posted: 1/16/2019 3:35:21 AM EDT

[#16]

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Make the KS7 in 20ga and that would be cool too

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I think the most interesting variant would be a shorter one like they do w/ the KSG so you can easily make a very short SBS.

Posted: 1/16/2019 3:53:06 AM EDT

[#17]

CP33 looks neat. Too bad this is kel-tec we're talking about.

Posted: 1/16/2019 4:43:49 AM EDT

[#18]

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https://www.alloutdoor.com/2019/01/11/secret-new-keltec-guns/

https://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/KS7_OD_left_DSC9629web-660x253.jpg

https://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/CP33_magazines_vortex_TK_6571web-660x440.jpg

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Posted: 1/16/2019 6:49:41 AM EDT

[#19]

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I would say you'd see all but the major players go kaput. Glock, S&W, Sig, etc. would stick around due to .gov/LEO contracts but they'd still have to cut way back and sell off a lot of assets to downsize.

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My interest is in their long-term success because I'd like to own more of their guns. Some people get their jimmies rustled when you tell it like it is but blowing sunshine up a company's ass doesn't get anyone anywhere.

That could be another side of it. When you are in a business of making things that could be categorically banned, essentially overnight, you don't want to carry a boat load of inventory, and you don't want to have millions in new equipment and tooling that you would then have to re-purpose or sell at a loss.

If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

In an outright ban they're virtually all fucked. Keltec makes enough different stuff they could adapt w/ anything short of an outright ban, and w/o the debt load they have a chance to do that.

I would say you'd see all but the major players go kaput. Glock, S&W, Sig, etc. would stick around due to .gov/LEO contracts but they'd still have to cut way back and sell off a lot of assets to downsize.

So only those who kiss the ring of The Sovereign get to scarf the scraps he sees fit to toss down to them from his table? We are screwed, across the board, if it came that time.

Posted: 1/16/2019 6:54:59 AM EDT

[#20]

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With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

You seem inordinately absorbed with how Mr. Kel-tec runs his private, successful (and increasingly growing) company. You get fired from there or work for a competitor?

Posted: 1/16/2019 7:03:45 AM EDT

[#21]

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Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

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If this pistol/mag combo orove to run reliably, I WILL have the CMR .22 LR rifle version. (I've been a .22 plinking fanatic for almost fifty years) Love me some .22 LR.

Posted: 1/16/2019 7:08:05 AM EDT

[#22]

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It really looks unbalanced as a full length rifle. SBR would be perfect. I wish they would do a pistol with a tailhook mod 1.

ETA pics of SBR (not mine)

https://i.redd.it/ytukka4sv2f11.jpg

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I've got one of those. I'm seriously pondering the idea of cutting it down to 10" or so. Sounds like about 90% of the velocity still and it would look/handle a lot better.

It really looks unbalanced as a full length rifle. SBR would be perfect. I wish they would do a pistol with a tailhook mod 1.

ETA pics of SBR (not mine)

https://i.redd.it/ytukka4sv2f11.jpg

I like it...I like it a lot.jpg

Posted: 1/16/2019 8:14:41 AM EDT

[#23]

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Didn't Glock launch the 42 and 43 within the last couple years? Those were radically different than previous offerings considering they were single stack.

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Lol, single stack "radical".

Posted: 1/16/2019 8:24:23 AM EDT

[#24]

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I'm not sure why you'd want an RDB pistol, when the Survival is barely 26" overall with a stock, and under 6 lbs in weight.

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By the way, not a huge fan of the KSG, but that KS7 looks pretty awesome (size and weight of an MP5A2!) and if KelTec manages to get these on dealers' shelves in quantity and retailing at or under $400.00, they will do very well on them. Think of them as a Shockwave competitor.

I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

Gives me hope there will be an RDB "arm pistol." It is *JUST* under 13.5" from the trigger shoe to the rear of the receiver when no buttpad is mounted.

I'm not sure why you'd want an RDB pistol, when the Survival is barely 26" overall with a stock, and under 6 lbs in weight.

Because you'd be able to shoulder it and cut the barrel about flush to the gas block. Some minor redesign on the receiver & barrel and you can shorten the length another 4-5 inches, for a <20" P90 sized PDW (perhaps in Blackout or another larger bore subsonic cartridge) that requires no stamps or even markings if somebody makes "80%" flats.

Ignore the "angled foregrip" for NFA purposes;

Posted: 1/16/2019 8:27:47 AM EDT

[#25]

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I took an entrepreneurship class at WSU at one point. They had a bunch of the local guys who have made it big. George Ablah, at least one of the Carney brothers (Pizza Hut), George Ablah and some others IIRC. The one thing I got from most of them was they have almost all crashed and gone bankrupt multiple times. It's part of the game. What sets them apart is starting something new, trying again, and managing the risk to the level they can handle. It sounds to me like Kel-tec has hit that point. Steady consistent growth sounds good to me. We've been seeing a lot of gun companies who were doing "safe" growth as everything was hot who discovered it really wasn't safe.

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LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model.

https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif

So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research.

I took an entrepreneurship class at WSU at one point. They had a bunch of the local guys who have made it big. George Ablah, at least one of the Carney brothers (Pizza Hut), George Ablah and some others IIRC. The one thing I got from most of them was they have almost all crashed and gone bankrupt multiple times. It's part of the game. What sets them apart is starting something new, trying again, and managing the risk to the level they can handle. It sounds to me like Kel-tec has hit that point. Steady consistent growth sounds good to me. We've been seeing a lot of gun companies who were doing "safe" growth as everything was hot who discovered it really wasn't safe.

That guy's also forgetting (maybe doesn't even know) that we've been in a firearms Golden Age for over 15 years, unprecedented since perhaps John Browning's time of mass-industrialization in the US. Planning a business model around that, especially after living through the 80s & 90s, is monumentally stupid.

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:24:23 AM EDT

[#26]

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You seem inordinately absorbed with how Mr. Kel-tec runs his private, successful (and increasingly growing) company. You get fired from there or work for a competitor?

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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

You seem inordinately absorbed with how Mr. Kel-tec runs his private, successful (and increasingly growing) company. You get fired from there or work for a competitor?

You got me!

No I've never worked in the firearms industry. Apparently some people can't disengage their fanboydom long enough to understand some healthy criticism. They go into full white knight mode.

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:25:43 AM EDT

[#27]

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Lol, single stack "radical".

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Didn't Glock launch the 42 and 43 within the last couple years? Those were radically different than previous offerings considering they were single stack.

Lol, single stack "radical".

Cherry picking drive-by. Go back and quote the whole tree.

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:30:21 AM EDT

[#28]

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Oh please GTFO of here. You better be a John fucking Browning, a Rockefeller or Warren mothefriking Buffet. If it is so easy and obvious why the fuck all these gun companies fail including those backed by large Capital Investments fail? He may not be doing it how YOU want it but don't come here and preach he's a failure.

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Quoted:
https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif

The guy doesn't really have a great track record.

Oh please GTFO of here. You better be a John fucking Browning, a Rockefeller or Warren mothefriking Buffet. If it is so easy and obvious why the fuck all these gun companies fail including those backed by large Capital Investments fail? He may not be doing it how YOU want it but don't come here and preach he's a failure.

I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions.

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:35:42 AM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions.

View Quote

We get it, you would do it differently.

Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently?

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:47:30 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
That guy's also forgetting (maybe doesn't even know) that we've been in a firearms Golden Age for over 15 years, unprecedented since perhaps John Browning's time of mass-industrialization in the US. Planning a business model around that, especially after living through the 80s & 90s, is monumentally stupid.

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LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model.

https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif

So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research.

I took an entrepreneurship class at WSU at one point. They had a bunch of the local guys who have made it big. George Ablah, at least one of the Carney brothers (Pizza Hut), George Ablah and some others IIRC. The one thing I got from most of them was they have almost all crashed and gone bankrupt multiple times. It's part of the game. What sets them apart is starting something new, trying again, and managing the risk to the level they can handle. It sounds to me like Kel-tec has hit that point. Steady consistent growth sounds good to me. We've been seeing a lot of gun companies who were doing "safe" growth as everything was hot who discovered it really wasn't safe.

That guy's also forgetting (maybe doesn't even know) that we've been in a firearms Golden Age for over 15 years, unprecedented since perhaps John Browning's time of mass-industrialization in the US. Planning a business model around that, especially after living through the 80s & 90s, is monumentally stupid.

Strike while the iron is hot -- which means to take an advantage of an opportunity as soon as it exists. It's monumentally stupid to let that 15 year window pass you by without gettin' while the gettin's good. Nobody has refuted any of the legitimate criticisms I've laid down like their pricing model being out of whack with their supply curve. The only thing they can come up with is "well they have their guns priced where they want them to be priced! Derpty derp!"

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:51:14 AM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Strike while the iron is hot -- which means to take an advantage of an opportunity as soon as it exists. It's monumentally stupid to let that 15 year window pass you by without gettin' while the gettin's good. Nobody has refuted any of the legitimate criticisms I've laid down like their pricing model being out of whack with their supply curve. The only thing they can come up with is "well they have their guns priced where they want them to be priced! Derpty derp!"

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In hindsight, maybe it would have been good. With the way the firearms industry goes hot/cold you're betting your company when you expand to quickly. You also run into more QC issues w/ fast growth. It's been mentioned that one issue w/ playing games w/ prices is dealers getting stuck w/ product they can't move when you drop it. That's a good way to get them to stop selling it. It's obvious you're less worried about risk (with someone else's money/company) than they are.

Posted: 1/16/2019 11:57:09 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
I like Keltec (the company) for it's true innovations and I have always really liked the one Keltec I own, a P3AT, but you about hit the nail square on the head. Cracked up reading what you did there.

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Pretty ugly. But at least they'll only build 4 of them.

Here's the KelTec way:

Introduced at SHOT 2019: Shipping Q3 '19.
Two will go out to YouTubers in July. One of these will end up in Recoil in August.
October 2019: Shipping Q1 '20.
Three examples will go out to internet bloggers December '19.
SHOT 2020: Shipping Q4 2020
Nothing is said until SHOT 2021... Then: Shipping Q2 '21
Seven show up on Gunbroker around November for preorder at twice MSRP. Only one will ever be delivered.
Nothing is mentioned at SHOT 2022.
Press release goes out in May 2022 that they are shipping, finally. Nine will go out to dealers in Twin Falls, Idaho; Reno, Nevada; some place in the panhandle of Florida and there's a rumor one was spotted in Ohio.
SHOT 2023: They're being pimped again with KelTec reps swearing that the "bugs have been worked out and they're ready to ship Q2 of 2023!"
They quietly disappear from the website in September 2023.

I like Keltec (the company) for it's true innovations and I have always really liked the one Keltec I own, a P3AT, but you about hit the nail square on the head. Cracked up reading what you did there.

So much this. And they actually make a nice factory bullpup trigger.

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:16:54 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
In hindsight, maybe it would have been good. With the way the firearms industry goes hot/cold you're betting your company when you expand to quickly. You also run into more QC issues w/ fast growth. It's been mentioned that one issue w/ playing games w/ prices is dealers getting stuck w/ product they can't move when you drop it. That's a good way to get them to stop selling it. It's obvious you're less worried about risk (with someone else's money/company) than they are.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Strike while the iron is hot -- which means to take an advantage of an opportunity as soon as it exists. It's monumentally stupid to let that 15 year window pass you by without gettin' while the gettin's good. Nobody has refuted any of the legitimate criticisms I've laid down like their pricing model being out of whack with their supply curve. The only thing they can come up with is "well they have their guns priced where they want them to be priced! Derpty derp!"

In hindsight, maybe it would have been good. With the way the firearms industry goes hot/cold you're betting your company when you expand to quickly. You also run into more QC issues w/ fast growth. It's been mentioned that one issue w/ playing games w/ prices is dealers getting stuck w/ product they can't move when you drop it. That's a good way to get them to stop selling it. It's obvious you're less worried about risk (with someone else's money/company) than they are.

I'm not suggesting they fuck with prices up and down constantly. I'm saying unless they can produce more units faster, their guns are priced too low at launch. It's that easy if they don't want to expand with debt. Take the extra profit margin per unit sold and put that into the expansion fund. This is basic shit and I'm not hating on them. Some people just get their jimmies rustled.

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:21:39 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
We get it, you would do it differently.

Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions.

We get it, you would do it differently.

Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently?

I second the question.

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:24:00 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
I second the question.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions.

We get it, you would do it differently.

Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently?

I second the question.

Not a fan of the euro style mag release.

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:40:02 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Not a fan of the euro style mag release.

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Quoted:
Not a fan of the euro style mag release.

Dupe

Quoted:
Same stupid Euro heel mag catch...

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:49:44 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price.

View Quote

It must be your local area, because just yesterday I saw a PMR-30, CMR-30, KSG, and two Sub-2000s.

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:54:03 PM EDT

[#38]

I don't give a fuck about the haters.

My sub 2000 has run reliably out of the box since the day I bought it.

One of the coolest guns I own. . . and of course I paid a $100 premium to get it early, but I think it was worth it.

Not into the shotgun, but i'd buy that pistol if the price tag comes in around 500

Posted: 1/16/2019 12:54:49 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
It must be your local area, because just yesterday I saw a PMR-30, CMR-30, KSG, and two Sub-2000s.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price.

It must be your local area, because just yesterday I saw a PMR-30, CMR-30, KSG, and two Sub-2000s.

I've seen PSA selling PMR's and Sub 2000's for extended periods of time.

If someone wanted either of those models in the past year, they could have had them with minimal looking.

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:00:55 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
Here's the KelTec way:

Introduced at SHOT 2019: Shipping Q3 '19.
Two will go out to YouTubers in July. One of these will end up in Recoil in August.
October 2019: Shipping Q1 '20.
Three examples will go out to internet bloggers December '19.
SHOT 2020: Shipping Q4 2020
Nothing is said until SHOT 2021... Then: Shipping Q2 '21
Seven show up on Gunbroker around November for preorder at twice MSRP. Only one will ever be delivered.
Nothing is mentioned at SHOT 2022.
Press release goes out in May 2022 that they are shipping, finally. Nine will go out to dealers in Twin Falls, Idaho; Reno, Nevada; some place in the panhandle of Florida and there's a rumor one was spotted in Ohio.
SHOT 2023: They're being pimped again with KelTec reps swearing that the "bugs have been worked out and they're ready to ship Q2 of 2023!"
They quietly disappear from the website in September 2023.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Pretty ugly. But at least they'll only build 4 of them.

Here's the KelTec way:

Introduced at SHOT 2019: Shipping Q3 '19.
Two will go out to YouTubers in July. One of these will end up in Recoil in August.
October 2019: Shipping Q1 '20.
Three examples will go out to internet bloggers December '19.
SHOT 2020: Shipping Q4 2020
Nothing is said until SHOT 2021... Then: Shipping Q2 '21
Seven show up on Gunbroker around November for preorder at twice MSRP. Only one will ever be delivered.
Nothing is mentioned at SHOT 2022.
Press release goes out in May 2022 that they are shipping, finally. Nine will go out to dealers in Twin Falls, Idaho; Reno, Nevada; some place in the panhandle of Florida and there's a rumor one was spotted in Ohio.
SHOT 2023: They're being pimped again with KelTec reps swearing that the "bugs have been worked out and they're ready to ship Q2 of 2023!"
They quietly disappear from the website in September 2023.

yep... its a "genius" plan if all their goal is to sell the only stock they have...

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:02:25 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Dupe

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Not a fan of the euro style mag release.

Dupe

Quoted:
Same stupid Euro heel mag catch...

Just sayin'!

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:04:20 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
It's .22lr and 30rd mags

It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30

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So what caliber is the CP33?

22LR or 22mag? Didint see it listed.

If 22LR they have my attention.

It's .22lr and 30rd mags

It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30

oh good, thats finally coming out! obamma kinda ruined 22lr for me though.... if ammo was 2.5 cents again... or a bit more (2019 dollars) (it probably is, im just mad bro)

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:05:16 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
Im buying that CP33 as soon as i can get one.

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yep, in 2023

Lyrics
In the year 2525, if man is still alive
If woman can survive, they may find
In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lie
Everything you think, do and say
Is in the pill you took today
In the year 4545
You ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes
You won't find a thing to chew
Nobody's gonna look at you
In the year 5555
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you
In the year 6565
You won't need no husband, won't need no wife
You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
From the bottom of a long glass tube
In the year 7510
If God's a coming, He oughta make it by then
Maybe He'll look around Himself and say
Guess it's time for the judgment day
In the year 8510
God is gonna shake His mighty head
He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
Or tear it down, and start again
In the year 9595
I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
He's taken everything this old earth can give
And he ain't put back nothing
Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what, he never knew, now man's reign is through
But through eternal night, the twinkling of starlight
So very far away, maybe it's only yesterday
In the year 2525, if man is still alive
If woman can survive, they may find

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:06:08 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
oh good, thats finally coming out! obamma kinda ruined 22lr for me though.... if ammo was 2.5 cents again... or a bit more (2019 dollars) (it probably is, im just mad bro)

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Quoted:

Quoted:
So what caliber is the CP33?

22LR or 22mag? Didint see it listed.

If 22LR they have my attention.

It's .22lr and 30rd mags

It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30

oh good, thats finally coming out! obamma kinda ruined 22lr for me though.... if ammo was 2.5 cents again... or a bit more (2019 dollars) (it probably is, im just mad bro)

I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep.

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:23:42 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
This in bold. Anyone remember the ramline, short double stack 30rd 10/22 mags? I do, they didn't feed for shit! Making a quad stack magazine that reliably feeds 22lr will take some voodoo magic that no other manufacture has mastered...

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someone named "salem6" did double or quad sw m and p 22lr mags... dont think they ran good though either.... keltec has more R and D bucks, and bigger rep to sully...

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:25:56 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:

I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
So what caliber is the CP33?

22LR or 22mag? Didint see it listed.

If 22LR they have my attention.

It's .22lr and 30rd mags

It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30

oh good, thats finally coming out! obamma kinda ruined 22lr for me though.... if ammo was 2.5 cents again... or a bit more (2019 dollars) (it probably is, im just mad bro)

I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep.

Yep, now is the time to buy. Here in Illinois I think we are going to get an ammo tax in the next year (minimum with our terrible, terrible new governor and his super majority). The black pack I stocked up on after thanksgiving would have cost $80 more with what I have seen proposed and a case of 5.56 will run and extra $50 (.01 per round rimfire, .05 everything else).

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:33:22 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
I've seen PSA selling PMR's and Sub 2000's for extended periods of time.

If someone wanted either of those models in the past year, they could have had them with minimal looking.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price.

It must be your local area, because just yesterday I saw a PMR-30, CMR-30, KSG, and two Sub-2000s.

I've seen PSA selling PMR's and Sub 2000's for extended periods of time.

If someone wanted either of those models in the past year, they could have had them with minimal looking.

That's when I got my Sub2k. Last year from PSA.

Posted: 1/16/2019 1:41:59 PM EDT

[#48]

The Econ/biz-running debate has made this thread totally suck.

Posted: 1/16/2019 2:27:44 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep.

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Where the hell did you find that? Don’t think I’ve seen it sub 4 cents.

Quoted:
The Econ/biz-running debate has made this thread totally suck.

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It was done till you ran your keyboard

Posted: 1/16/2019 2:48:23 PM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
Where the hell did you find that? Don’t think I’ve seen it sub 4 cents.
It was done till you ran your keyboard

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Quoted:

I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep.

Where the hell did you find that? Don’t think I’ve seen it sub 4 cents.

Quoted:
The Econ/biz-running debate has made this thread totally suck.

It was done till you ran your keyboard

Nah I’m full of shit, it was 4.x cpr, but under .05, which is my “buy now” price. Had to go check it’s been a few months.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kel-Tec’s secret is out: The KS7 shotgun and CP33 pistol are here (Page 7 of 9)

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