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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:25:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Its sad or whatever, but these were shit boxes built as fast as possible back when phillips head screws were new technology. Nobody else should die in one.
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:25:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just read that too. Makes way more sense. I imagine the original was scrapped not long after it got tore up by AA. I think they fixed it and scrapped it in 45 if I remember. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:28:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ground 'em and preserve them. We're not building any more B-17s. A ship is safe in harbor, but that’s not what ships are for. A plane is safe in a museum, but that’s not what they’re for either. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:35:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So glad I got a ride on Aluminum Overcast when I had the chance.  Glad I did the same, in Nine-O-Nine. Of course we know how she ended up. It's hard to believe, but we're now as far removed in time from WWII as WWII was from the Civil War. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:36:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its sad or whatever, but these were shit boxes built as fast as possible back when phillips head screws were new technology. Nobody else should die in one. I've done far more dangerous things than fly in a B17. I'll handle my own risk management. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:37:37 PM EDT
[#6]
So wanted to ride the nine-o-nine when it was in town. Just couldn't splurge the $500 for the seat at the time. A couple months later it crashed. Looks like the sentimental journey will be around next week, 2 seats left. Damn not sure I can swing it so soon. I really want to ride before they get grounded. Mad at myself for putting it off the past few years.
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:45:42 PM EDT
[#7]
I have two hours of right seat time on the Sentimental Journey from 24 years ago.
I believe it's still flying. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 12:00:49 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have two hours of right seat time on the Sentimental Journey from 24 years ago. I believe it's still flying. Right up the road from me in Arizona. And it is still flying. I may need to grab a ride while I still can. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 12:05:35 AM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 4/18/2023 12:23:05 AM EDT
[#10]
The country they fought to keep free is dead, so may as well put them in a hangar as keep pretending this country actually stands for liberty. Fitting, actually when we have a senile Marxist Chinese agent as front man for the Deep State globalists.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 6:02:01 AM EDT
[#11]
I didn't know Ye Olde Pub was still flying, that's awesome.
https://youtu.be/dslO-3GgenY |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 6:06:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So glad I got a ride on Aluminum Overcast when I had the chance. Wife bought me a ride in Aluminum Overcast about 20 years or so ago. I'll remember it always. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 6:09:13 AM EDT
[#13]
 Attached File Attached FileI had the pleasure of flying "FiFi" last year. Honestly was on the bucket list |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 6:32:40 AM EDT
[#14]
The greater loss is the men that flew them are mostly gone.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 6:50:44 AM EDT
[#15]
I got a chance to tour Nine Oh Nine a couple years before she crashed, along with Witchcraft, the B24. I have pics of my oldest son who was 3 at the time, in the top turret of old Witchcraft.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:10:36 AM EDT
[#16]
When the Collings Foundation came around, we won a ride on their B-17(the one that crashed).
The B-17 was full, so we went up on 'Witchcraft' instead. I was satisfied. 
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:13:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Texas Raiders used to be housed at the airport right behind my house. I got to see her doing touch and go's almost every weekend during the spring and summer.
I miss seeing her. It's sad knowing she's gone. ETA: I never took a ride, although I had several opportunities. I did crawl through her a few times, though. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:30:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That plane came apart because it got hit by another plane. It didn't just break up on it's own. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's all just different now https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Dallas-Air-Crash-scaled-1200x900.jpg And you will note that the spar is still intact. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:32:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My dad and I flew on one a decade ago. It was the liberty belle. It ended up crashing. Glad we went as I guess it won't be possible anymore. Liberty Belle made an emergency landing in a field and was destroyed by the fire on the ground. Nobody injured. It might not have been destroyed, but the fire trucks couldn't get to where she was. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:45:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are plenty in museums. I say keep the airworthy ones flying as long as it can be done in reasonable safety. This. I have seen several B-17s over the years in museums and even done a few walk through's but it took a flight on Nine-O-Nine a few years ago for me to truly appreciate what those brave young men did during the war. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:48:15 AM EDT
[#21]
My dad is in a group that rebuilt an A-26. Luckily they were able to acquire a freshly made wing spar so it should be flying for years.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:55:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I flew on Sentimental Journey the last time it was out here. I think its coming back out soon. Will have to take another ride on it and the B-25.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u69YfO3aRLc |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:04:15 AM EDT
[#23]
I re-enlisted in the cockpit of the Memphis Belle when she was at Mud Island in Memphis
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:07:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My dad is in a group that rebuilt an A-26. Luckily they were able to acquire a freshly made wing spar so it should be flying for years. There’s a museum in Colorado Springs that does warbird restorations. They told me they could make the aluminum components for a complete P-51 in about a year. Their problem is no young blood coming in to learn those skills. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:10:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Museums have been under attack for a long time. Exhibits removed to make room for more "inclusive" displays, not as many private donations, not as many volunteers and 2020 shut the doors on many museums that are still closed or only open a day a week.
I rather see exhibits out and about for more people to see and appreciate. The Durango Steam train in Colorado is a great template for how to keep something old up and running and potentially profitable. The same company is currently trying to keep Tuscon studios going. Get those planes featured in a video game and a whole new generation will fall in love with them. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:29:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There’s a museum in Colorado Springs that does warbird restorations. They told me they could make the aluminum components for a complete P-51 in about a year. Their problem is no young blood coming in to learn those skills. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My dad is in a group that rebuilt an A-26. Luckily they were able to acquire a freshly made wing spar so it should be flying for years. There’s a museum in Colorado Springs that does warbird restorations. They told me they could make the aluminum components for a complete P-51 in about a year. Their problem is no young blood coming in to learn those skills. Maybe I'm way off the mark, but would you want to live in colorado springs and probably make 1/4 or less of the $$$ you could make in more gainful employment in the same type of industry? I don't know dick about the aviation restoration scene, but fixing old stuff increasingly becomes more of a passion project for the right type of person interested in the subject matter rather than lucrative careers for any random person with the required skill set. In my limited experience, anyway. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:33:39 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all just different now https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Dallas-Air-Crash-scaled-1200x900.jpg |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:38:46 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Museums have been under attack for a long time. Exhibits removed to make room for more "inclusive" displays, not as many private donations, not as many volunteers and 2020 shut the doors on many museums that are still closed or only open a day a week. I rather see exhibits out and about for more people to see and appreciate. The Durango Steam train in Colorado is a great template for how to keep something old up and running and potentially profitable. The same company is currently trying to keep Tuscon studios going. Get those planes featured in a video game and a whole new generation will fall in love with them. Already plenty of popular video games with old planes, tanks, etc. I don't think the problem is lack of interest. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:53:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Crank up the speakers.
The Nine-O-Nine flying over my house. 21 seconds.  Nine-O-Nine B-17 Flyover |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:53:20 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the EAA can keep their Ford Tri-Motor flying, the Forts will be in the air a bit longer. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1670/Ford_trimotor_220_jpg-2786936.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1670/Ford_trimotor_219_jpg-2786938.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1670/Ford_trimotor_206_jpg-2786941.JPG @Gopher I'm flying aboard the Tri-Motor next Thursday while it's in Tullahoma, TN. I can't wait. I flew aboard Texas Raiders a couple years ago. It was a true bucket list item for me, as my grandfather was a B-17 pilot in the 381st Bomb Group's 534th Bomb Squadron during early 45. (TR was painted to resemble a 534th plane.) I've also flown aboard a PT-13 Stearman, which is similar to the PT-17 my grandfather learned to fly during his primary pilot training. (PT-13's and PT-17's differ in the type of engine they have.) At the end of April, my girlfriend and I are going on a military museum tour of Georgia. First stop is the National Infantry Museum at Fort Benning, followed by a stop at Andersonville Prison. Then, we are visiting the WWII Flight Training Museum in Douglas, GA, where my grandfather attended primary pilot training. They're hosting a Wings & Things Festival and Fly-In, which will have a number of WW2 warbirds (Douglas is also home to The Liberty Foundation, which owns and is restoring a new Liberty Belle B-17). Then, we're driving over to Pooler to visit the 8th Air Force Museum. On the way home, we're stopping in Warner-Robins to visit their Museum of Aviation. We'll get to see at least 3 B-17's that weekend-The Liberty Belle in Douglas, the City of Savannah in Pooler, and 44-83690 in Warner-Robins. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:06:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So glad I got a ride on Aluminum Overcast when I had the chance. I did too. My wife got me the ~45 for my birthday. Fantastic ride. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:11:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's crazy to think the B-17 flew only 26 years after the 1909 Wright Military Flyer, the world's first military airplane. Even more impressive is the B-52 flying it's first flight in 1952, just 43 years after the Wright 1909, and is still in service today. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:18:52 AM EDT
[#33]
How long is 100LL gonna be around? That's the real kicker.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:26:10 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sentimental Journey has had its wing spars replaced before. Full on machine shop that keeps that bird flying. There is a shop somewhere in California that made brand new spars for a Helldiver. Alcoa Aluminum in Alcoa, TN made a one off wing spars for a Spitfire a guy was building up. Lead time was around a year and set the guy back $1,000,000. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:31:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its sad or whatever, but these were shit boxes built as fast as possible back when phillips head screws were new technology. Nobody else should die in one. And during my time as an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, 26 countries and 6 of 7 continents, you know what the overwhelmingly most common fastener was and probably still is? Yup, the mighty Phillips head screw. From nose to tail, wing leading edges, all over. Screws. Don't knock 'em, especially when most of the high removal panels were quarter turn Zeus fastenters. 
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:57:33 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s not THE Ye Olde Pub, just a mock-up. Was Madras Maiden before with a chin turret, and I think some other name before that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Cool to see Ye Old Pub is still flying for now. Interesting history behind that plane, and the crew. It’s not THE Ye Olde Pub, just a mock-up. Was Madras Maiden before with a chin turret, and I think some other name before that. Chuckie, if it's the one I'm thinking about. It was a crop duster based out of Dothan, AL back in the late 60's and early 70's. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:21:58 AM EDT
[#37]
I would like to see the remaining original warbirds preserved for the historical value.
I would also like to see the speculators from the Barrett-Jackson crowd that hijacked the collector-car market from the car-enthusiasts sink their money into building warbird replicas with modernized safety, engineering, and materials to replace the original warbirds on the airshow circuits. Essentially, create an aviation version of Year One. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:26:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A ship is safe in harbor, but that’s not what ships are for. A plane is safe in a museum, but that’s not what they’re for either. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ground 'em and preserve them. We're not building any more B-17s. A ship is safe in harbor, but that’s not what ships are for. A plane is safe in a museum, but that’s not what they’re for either. Best that can be done. It's hard showing future generations a pile of wreckage and explaining what it used to be. 
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:27:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The greater loss is the men that flew them are mostly gone. This. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:38:16 AM EDT
[#40]
I flew in Sentimental Journey about 20 years ago. It was $500 well spent. I made a video and sent it to my father who was just thrilled I was able to experience it.
Go if you still can |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:53:22 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And during my time as an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, 26 countries and 6 of 7 continents, you know what the overwhelmingly most common fastener was and probably still is? Yup, the mighty Phillips head screw. From nose to tail, wing leading edges, all over. Screws. Don't knock 'em, especially when most of the high removal panels were quarter turn Zeus fastenters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Its sad or whatever, but these were shit boxes built as fast as possible back when phillips head screws were new technology. Nobody else should die in one. And during my time as an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, 26 countries and 6 of 7 continents, you know what the overwhelmingly most common fastener was and probably still is? Yup, the mighty Phillips head screw. From nose to tail, wing leading edges, all over. Screws. Don't knock 'em, especially when most of the high removal panels were quarter turn Zeus fastenters. When you peel back the veneer of an airliner or a private jet, they don't look all that different from the inside of a WWII era aircraft. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:00:08 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Museums have been under attack for a long time. Exhibits removed to make room for more "inclusive" displays, not as many private donations, not as many volunteers and 2020 shut the doors on many museums that are still closed or only open a day a week. I rather see exhibits out and about for more people to see and appreciate. The Durango Steam train in Colorado is a great template for how to keep something old up and running and potentially profitable. The same company is currently trying to keep Tuscon studios going. Get those planes featured in a video game and a whole new generation will fall in love with them. It would be nice to see multiplayer games where you could man different positions in the planes. Imagine being a turret gunner on a european raid or a navigator in the pacific theater. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:32:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Texas Raiders used to be housed at the airport right behind my house. I got to see her doing touch and go's almost every weekend during the spring and summer. I miss seeing her. It's sad knowing she's gone. ETA: I never took a ride, although I had several opportunities. I did crawl through her a few times, though. She flew over my house a few times during air shows, I did the static tour twice but for lack of cash I never got to fly. They were not doing rides last time and I came prepared to pay. Really regret that now, it’s been a bucket list item. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 12:36:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Send me the drawing numbers (hell, the drawings are probably still in some repository somewhere) and a charge line. We'll get you some spars. They might be composite... But they'll work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I suppose it will just be a question of money. You can engineer yourself out of [almost] every situation with enough money. They'll fly again. Send me the drawing numbers (hell, the drawings are probably still in some repository somewhere) and a charge line. We'll get you some spars. They might be composite... But they'll work. https://airandspace.si.edu/collections/archival-collections/technical-reference-files They should have all the technical drawings that Boeing provided to the military for the B-17, but I'm not familiar with the current process of getting copies. I will warn that, three decades ago, the archives staff seemed to be burned out on getting requests from people that had decided they wanted to build a scaled down replica of some fighter and sent in a request for "everything you have on (insert model of plane)", because they were required to reply with a detailed list of 'everything they have on' and the estimate for the cost of copies, when the guy would only need a few drawings that show various dimensions. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My dad is in a group that rebuilt an A-26. Luckily they were able to acquire a freshly made wing spar so it should be flying for years. There’s a museum in Colorado Springs that does warbird restorations. They told me they could make the aluminum components for a complete P-51 in about a year. Their problem is no young blood coming in to learn those skills. Maybe I'm way off the mark, but would you want to live in colorado springs and probably make 1/4 or less of the $$$ you could make in more gainful employment in the same type of industry? I don't know dick about the aviation restoration scene, but fixing old stuff increasingly becomes more of a passion project for the right type of person interested in the subject matter rather than lucrative careers for any random person with the required skill set. In my limited experience, anyway. You might be slightly off the mark, but definitely not way off the mark. Management wants me to train younger guys to do structural work. First problem (from my end) is finding younger guys with the correct mindset to be trained to do the work, and since management doesn't have years of experience doing structural work, their opinions on who would be good candidates to train don't always match up with my opinion. From there, you move on to the issue of whether or not the candidate will stay, or move on to a job with better pay and benefits (working on jets). |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 12:48:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How long is 100LL gonna be around? That's the real kicker. WW2 military planes were not built to run on 100LL. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 1:01:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck that... There are plenty of dust collectors out there. There are a few in the process of being built. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ground 'em and preserve them. We're not building any more B-17s. Fuck that... There are plenty of dust collectors out there. There are a few in the process of being built. A friend from HS/classmate is one of the principals in Champaign Gal. I'm going to check it out when I'm visiting my Brother later this year. They should be getting close... |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 1:17:46 PM EDT
[#47]
I have been in that one.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 1:22:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sentimental Journey has had its wing spars replaced before. Full on machine shop that keeps that bird flying. There is a shop somewhere in California that made brand new spars for a Helldiver. Last time it was in town, they canceled all flights - engine issues. I hope to have another chance as my grandfather helped design the bomb bay doors, and it would be awesome to fly in something he worked on. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 1:37:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chuckie, if it's the one I'm thinking about. It was a crop duster based out of Dothan, AL back in the late 60's and early 70's. Yep that’s the one! |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 1:47:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Gopher I'm flying aboard the Tri-Motor next Thursday while it's in Tullahoma, TN. I can't wait. I flew aboard Texas Raiders a couple years ago. It was a true bucket list item for me, as my grandfather was a B-17 pilot in the 381st Bomb Group's 534th Bomb Squadron during early 45. (TR was painted to resemble a 534th plane.) I've also flown aboard a PT-13 Stearman, which is similar to the PT-17 my grandfather learned to fly during his primary pilot training. (PT-13's and PT-17's differ in the type of engine they have.) At the end of April, my girlfriend and I are going on a military museum tour of Georgia. First stop is the National Infantry Museum at Fort Benning, followed by a stop at Andersonville Prison. Then, we are visiting the WWII Flight Training Museum in Douglas, GA, where my grandfather attended primary pilot training. They're hosting a Wings & Things Festival and Fly-In, which will have a number of WW2 warbirds (Douglas is also home to The Liberty Foundation, which owns and is restoring a new Liberty Belle B-17). Then, we're driving over to Pooler to visit the 8th Air Force Museum. On the way home, we're stopping in Warner-Robins to visit their Museum of Aviation. We'll get to see at least 3 B-17's that weekend-The Liberty Belle in Douglas, the City of Savannah in Pooler, and 44-83690 in Warner-Robins. Cool. If you get a chance sit in the last seat on the left side of the cabin. Sitting there watching the door have a half inch gap at the top when is makes a left had turn will make you go.  It's cool to ride in something covered with barn tin.  Attached File |
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