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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:46:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be ‘6.5mm.’ Chris Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 6.5cm is for pussies that want to shoot shit in the middle of a hurricane at 3.2 miles away. In a real word scenario .308 will do just fine. It has worked for years with no issues. That would be ‘6.5mm.’ Chris But with 6.5cm you get more HE n the projectile! |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:47:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Screw 6.8 mm lets go 7 mm!
If you look at any reloading book you can find loads for all kinds of rounds from .22 magnum to .50 BMG. Whats the best round fro X? Depends on who you ask but 5.56 mm works so why change? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:47:25 PM EDT
[#3]
The new round isn't 6.8 spc.
Hopefully whatever they develope and ultimately adopt brings new capabilities. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:50:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The new round isn't 6.8 spc. Why spend time doing basic researching, when we can make a split decisions and proclaim the idea stupid. Im not sure the rifles are worth the squeeze but either of the belt feds seem like a vast improvement for the saw and 240 in dismounted platoons. If they could eliminate 7.62 and .50 completely from the system would be great. Dismounted 6.8, mounted or coax .338 /40mm |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:50:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah. Mags and bolts are still an issue. Mag reliability is the most common issues in the grendel forums So fix that? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:52:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These threads are always amazing to see spectacular displays of ignorance It’s what we do best! |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:54:20 PM EDT
[#7]
They hopefully aren't going to replace 556 with another basic tech round like grendel. It needs to be a leap in technology.
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:55:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They hopefully aren't going to replace 556 with another basic tech round like grendel. It needs to be a leap in technology. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:57:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you are talking about "replacing" with 6.5 you are talking about your barrel... You are mixing up Creedmore and Grendel. Creedmore is the barrel burner. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 3:59:37 PM EDT
[#10]
I agree with OP. The 556 is a fine carbine cartridge, for its intended purpose. It is NOT a proper rifle cartridge and wasn't intended to be one. For proper rifles we have the .308, .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua, and .50 BMG. Those cover all possible contingencies with plenty of overlap.
Leave the 556 alone. This is the same disease I saw in the corporate world. Managers coming in feeling like they just had to put their personal stamp on something to pad their resume. I wonder how much money is wasted by this egomania. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:07:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They hopefully aren't going to replace 556 with another basic tech round like grendel. It needs to be a leap in technology. The ammo tech will trickle down, SIG is already selling it as the 277 Fury.  
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:08:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Agreed. Joglee disagrees however
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:09:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 Grendel could replace 5.56 and 7.62. One and done  If they used the technology to create this new cartridge in a standard 5.56 case. I think you could sling 6.5/6 projectiles at or near creedmoor velocity. Problem is that still wouldn't solve their "problem" |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:11:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they used the technology to create this new cartridge in a standard 5.56 case. I think you could sling 6.5/6 projectiles at or near creedmoor velocity. Problem is that still wouldn't solve their "problem" True. The "problem" will never be solved 
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:11:12 PM EDT
[#15]
IIRC I bought my first 6.8 upper in 2006ish. I rebarreled it in 2012ish. It is still, in my mind, the perfect eastern deer cartridge for the AR platform and/or for younger shooters. That was true in 2012 and it is true now and while I have nothing against other calibers, I am 100% content with my choice of 6.8 for the specific role it plays for me.
I have no idea how/if that has any bearing on what the military does with rifles. My 6.8 is my deer gun. It isn't my HD rifle. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:19:15 PM EDT
[#16]
I'm holding out for 45-70 ammunition with a shaped-charge bullet to defeat level 4 body armor.
Hey, I'm reading all these fantasies. Mine are just as good! John |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:21:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love 6.8 specific threads. Never fails to bring out the Grendel and Creedmore cheerleaders. Now we just need to wait on a certain someone to trot out the 5 paragraph copy pasta. never fails |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:23:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 Grendel could replace 5.56 and 7.62. One and done Too slow for armor. You put in a smaller bullet for speed, now you lose its legs. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:29:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Use of newer technology to overcome lack of ability... Or perhaps it doesn’t have to do with ability but rather capability of the equipment; .308 is suboptimal compared to 6.5 cm at that distance. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:34:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too slow for armor. You put in a smaller bullet for speed, now you lose its legs. Can't make a 6.5G AP round? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:36:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't make a 6.5G AP round? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Too slow for armor. You put in a smaller bullet for speed, now you lose its legs. Can't make a 6.5G AP round? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:37:42 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: to do what the 6.8 already does? Seems like if it had a AP round it would do it all, no? |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:43:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with OP. The 556 is a fine carbine cartridge, for its intended purpose. It is NOT a proper rifle cartridge and wasn't intended to be one. For proper rifles we have the .308, .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua, and .50 BMG. Those cover all possible contingencies with plenty of overlap. Leave the 556 alone. This is the same disease I saw in the corporate world. Managers coming in feeling like they just had to put their personal stamp on something to pad their resume. I wonder how much money is wasted by this egomania. How about we dump .308 and .50. replace the 5.56 and 7.62 belt feds in dismounted applications with the a common machine gun round that can defeat modern armor. Replace the coax and mounted with 338 norma or a mk19 which both have superior performance to the .50 Whatever for the sniper rounds. There is opportunity to upgrade small arms ammunition across the board increasing lethality and providing a smaller logistical tail.  Warfare doesn't stay static, just because something worked doesn't mean it always will.
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:50:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: All our branches of armed services were well served with 5.56 and there is no need for replacement for 6.8 rifles. This is all political and based on churning out more money for unnecessary changes. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 4:52:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because all 556 is stopped by Chinese plates. Body armor is becoming ubiquitous. This is the Army trying to find a solution to this threat. The 6.8 bullet supplied by the Army is a scaled up 855A2 projectile, they told the industry we want this to x velocity we dont care how you do it. We got 3 new rifle and machine guns using 3 different technologies, I fail to see the bad in this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why don't they just switch ammo? Keep the rifles but use 69 or 77 grain bullets instead of 62. If 62 grain bullets are better that 55 grain bullets, wouldn't this make more sense? Because all 556 is stopped by Chinese plates. Body armor is becoming ubiquitous. This is the Army trying to find a solution to this threat. The 6.8 bullet supplied by the Army is a scaled up 855A2 projectile, they told the industry we want this to x velocity we dont care how you do it. We got 3 new rifle and machine guns using 3 different technologies, I fail to see the bad in this. Are we going to blow billion changing guns again when they issue a new plate for $150 each? The obsession with this shit is retarded |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 5:06:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are we going to blow billion changing guns again when they issue a new plate for $150 each? The obsession with this shit is retarded Are you going to stack on a door with a rifle that has a low probability chance of penetrating armor of the person behind it? They are small arms, this isnt the big deal you are making it out to be. Threats change, you adapt the tools to meet the need. Soldiers will need to know if they hit center has with mutiple rounds that the threat will be incapacitated. There is also the possibility to get beltfed machine guns thst weigh.less than the current issued guns that have much better performance. Everyone focuses on the fucking rifles for some asinine reason. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 5:12:30 PM EDT
[#27]
The biggest issue I see with this change is the added weight to both the new rifles and ammo that will have smaller load outs than 5.56
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Posted: 10/3/2020 7:38:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The biggest issue I see with this change is the added weight to both the new rifles and ammo that will have smaller load outs than 5.56 |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 7:53:25 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if 5.56 should be replaced, the correct answer is 6.5 Grendel. Not gonna happen. I have 4 grendels and they are great, but broken bolts are a real thing. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 7:56:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love 6.8 specific threads. Never fails to bring out the Grendel and Creedmore cheerleaders. Now we just need to wait on a certain someone to trot out the 5 paragraph copy pasta. Truth. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 7:58:52 AM EDT
[#31]
Don't we have some obligation for NATO standardization?
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Posted: 10/3/2020 8:42:49 AM EDT
[#32]
30-06 and 45 acp
Biggerhole |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:07:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Army is trying something hopefully they come to their senses and scrap it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 6.8 isn't replacing shit. Army is trying something hopefully they come to their senses and scrap it. Army is'nt replacing anything. They are constantly "evaluating" and "looking into". People constantly write press releases and make buzzy announcements and youtube videos based on standard stuff. It's the Army's job to invest a couple million (ie nothing) into new trials and evaluations. Often with specs written by a child, just to see if it can happen. The 6.8 ZOMG THIS TIME THEY ARE SERIOUS a couple years ago was an obvious absurdity. With rediculous specs of like 5000 fps ceaseless 200 gr bullet with no recoil, or something along those lines. Obviously it never happened. Army knows better than anyone that changing from 5.56 is a bad idea. Especially since all those offerings, including Grendel, have fatter cases, which means 30 rnd mags become 24 round mags. More likely .308 might get replaced with something more modern that delivers better perfomance in thte same sized case like .260 or CM. but even then, I doubt it. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:27:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Until they fix the bolt/mag issues with 6.5g it will never be suited for serious use.
I would imagine the fix for this would be a lot easier than completely starting from scratch, but I would think it would still mean you'd have to use an AR10 type platform which will add a fair amount of weight. I could be completely off base with this though. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:38:05 AM EDT
[#35]
WTF this is America rifles are cheep in the grand scheme of things, supply chains are the bigger issue, but hardly insurmountable.
Each unit of fighters can be issued two rifles. One for unarmored punks or when resupply may harder to come (Or humping long distances) by carry the 5.56 and when expected to go up against the body armored peer adversaries carry the new super duper 6.8’s. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:38:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryNever have I seen a more frightening vision of craven evil than this hag, cackling at the loss of some American's rights. She should be, oh well, forget I thought that. We must not say mean true things about our new, Alinskyite overlords. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:38:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Until they fix the bolt/mag issues with 6.5g it will never be suited for serious use. I would imagine the fix for this would be a lot easier than completely starting from scratch, but I would think it would still mean you'd have to use an AR10 type platform which will add a fair amount of weight. I could be completely off base with this though. I shied right away from the grendel in the AR platform strictly due to hogging out the bolt face to fit that fat case head. Marginalizes the strength there. I built a hunting upper in 6.8 spec 2. It is ok and for three hundred and in it will be everything I could need for my purpose. I would have been happy with a 6.5 something as I already have two guns using 6.5mm bullets. A 6.5mm-6.8 Rem would have worked but it is too wildcatty for me. I was already extending myself with the nonstandardishness of the 6.8.  |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:41:57 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5cm is for pussies that want to shoot shit in the middle of a hurricane at 3.2 miles away. In a real word scenario .308 will do just fine. It has worked for years with no issues. 6.5cm kicks like a mule. 6.5mm is more reasonable. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:43:54 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whenever I see this I think, did Aliens copy the "phased plasma pulse rifle" thing, or did Terminator take it from Aliens? ... apparently Terminator came first, so I guess Aliens ripped it off.  You need to fix up your '80s knowledge, mister. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:44:12 AM EDT
[#40]
Meh IMO until there are lasers or rail guns or some sort of shit , there isn't any real reason to spend the money on different calibers. Putting the money into advanced projectiles seems a bigger bang for your buck to me anyway
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:48:00 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is - .50 BMG AP - but it won't penetrate all plates. IIRC there were .50 proof plates in Vietnam and Ireland. There are now Chinese level 4 plates that stop .338 AP at a few hundred meters. NGSW is obsolete. High pressure technology isn't, it can reduce weight and increase velocity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Disagree, there needs to be a cartridge that can easily defeat level 4 body armor. There is - .50 BMG AP - but it won't penetrate all plates. IIRC there were .50 proof plates in Vietnam and Ireland. There are now Chinese level 4 plates that stop .338 AP at a few hundred meters. NGSW is obsolete. High pressure technology isn't, it can reduce weight and increase velocity. Lol mall security were issued those 338 proof plates YEARS ago!!! |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:48:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Im ready to sell all of my 5.56 and 7.62x51 boom sticks, the marketing is just too strong for me to resist.
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:48:46 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And just so this thread doesn't totally suck here's a rifle in 6.5 Jesusmoor: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/167780/IMG-4770_jpg-1616573.JPG That rifle looks badass. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:51:53 AM EDT
[#44]
1. The 6.8mm round the Army had been looking recently is not 6.8 SPC. It's a whole new kind of ammunition, as others have pointed out.
2. In addition to the barrel, switching to 6.5 Grendel requires a new bolt and magazines. 3. The Army does use 77 grain 5.56 ammo. The Army uses several different 5.56 loadings. The best it has, M855A1 weighs 62 grains. There's more to terminal performance than weight. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:52:40 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't we have some obligation for NATO standardization? If nato adopts something as standard then you must manufacture to the standard to mark it. No obligation to produce or use anything. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:53:30 AM EDT
[#46]
The 6mm ARC is already in testing and has been issued to some troops. This will be the next caliber if they replace the 5.56 platform. It falls just short of 308 and does better than 6.5 Grendel. Very accurate round out past 1000 yards and stays supersonic out past 1400 yards. The DoD wanted a round that was accurate past 1000. I shoot 105gn. bullets with a BC of .571 in mine. Wind has virtually no effect on the bullet.
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:55:08 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. 1. The 6.8mm round the Army had been looking recently is not 6.8 SPC. It's a whole new kind of ammunition, as others have pointed out. 2. In addition to the barrel, switching to 6.5 Grendel requires a new bolt and magazines. 3. The Army does use 77 grain 5.56 ammo. The Army uses several different 5.56 loadings. The best it has, M855A1 weighs 62 grains. There's more to terminal performance than weight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: These threads are always amazing to see spectacular displays of ignorance Yes. 1. The 6.8mm round the Army had been looking recently is not 6.8 SPC. It's a whole new kind of ammunition, as others have pointed out. 2. In addition to the barrel, switching to 6.5 Grendel requires a new bolt and magazines. 3. The Army does use 77 grain 5.56 ammo. The Army uses several different 5.56 loadings. The best it has, M855A1 weighs 62 grains. There's more to terminal performance than weight. They are also working on lightweight barrels, chambers, and bolts for 80ksi. And bore liners that won’t plasma-erode at those pressures and temps. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:57:27 AM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 10/3/2020 9:57:52 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back in the day in the delta I would loved to have had a suppressed 12.5" 6.8 SPC II + XM68GD ammo along with reliable mags. Lt Wt reliable thermal and an Aimpoint micro would have also been nice. And a G20 sidearm with Underwood ammo.
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Posted: 10/3/2020 10:01:28 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They should absolutely be trying new products and calibers to see if they can find something that's better. Yep. The Minnie Ball round has proven highly effective and there is no need for change. |
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