User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:35:15 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CountyWorker: You want us to fire on Russia? "they fire one, we fire one" "Fire One!" (Bedford Incident) |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:44:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today.  How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:44:14 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: Oh..... well that's different if it's just the president talking about it  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Aside from the incoherent ramblings of the potatus, nobody is advocating US military involvement as far as I know. A bunch of us want to provide Ukraine with all the supplies they want, but THEY'RE the ones to do the fighting. Sending military supplies and equipment to proxy wars is a time-honored tradition for bqth sides. Oh..... well that's different if it's just the president talking about it  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:48:28 AM EDT
[#4]
Does this make sense to do? Thought they got along better than this due to drone love. Could russia have staged it too? The maps don’t show them occupying that region but suppose that’s possible
“🇺🇦🇹🇷⚡️Turkish ship MV Rahmi Yağcı was raided and crew reportedly held by Ukrainian militias in Chornomorsk. Some sources quote Captain Hakan Çal that they demand the load, 5900 tons of manganese. https://t.me/OSINTUKRAINE” Telegram-in English for a change  Attached File |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:49:42 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: If we don't stop Putin today there could be a broken down Russian tank in your front yard tomorrow  Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:54:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Timeflies:  Some much needed levity Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Timeflies: Originally Posted By Glock63: Originally Posted By ISEEYOU2: What stolen election ??? 2016 when Putin helped Trump !!! This site needs an iq test for membership. Id wager your shoe size is larger. Some much needed levity i thought that's what the Captcha was for? |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:59:25 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast IMO, that's just completely unrealistic. Japan and Germany were completely defeated along with the ideologies that destroyed them. Russia merely lost control of the countries they were occupying. They remained an independent state. The government was re-formed, the same personnel recycled, and the expansionist russocentric ideology remained. Without a purge of the ruling class, all we would have achieved was funding the creation of a massively more powerful enemy. I would love if we were friendly, working together. Bush tried to be friends and Putin made him look like a fool. It seems deeply ingrained in their strategic culture to oppose us in every way possible. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:00:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: x248716x]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FrankyRay:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO6GChuaAAQUQTO?format=jpg&name=medium is that the Russian equivalent of Born To Kill, the duality of man thing? the Jungian thing?  Full Metal Jacket Born to Kill/Peace Button Duality of Man |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:01:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? ETA I remember saying basically this in the 90's and people rolling their eyes. 
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:02:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: norseman1]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Fighting daddys war all over again to make sure daddy loves us best was a wonderful use of resources. The rest of your post was too pooty-poo... Russia is not our friend and the idea that it could be changed through some policy magic is silly. Some people just want to see the world burn. Alcoholic generals kinda got that going for them. That, and hookers... |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:12:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Boris Nemtsov Tailed by FSB Squad Prior to 2015 Murder
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/03/28/boris-nemtsov-tailed-by-fsb-squad-prior-to-2015-murder/ |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:21:10 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattyCR: Biden was the VP for nearly everything on your list, you tell me if he had anything to do with US response to it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:21:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? None ... in fact many took off with the communist party funds.....which if you add all of the warsaw pact , the party membership funds is into the hundreds of billions... that money is good seed to wait it out and hopefully resurrect communism 2.0. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:45:32 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattyCR: Marshall Plan, look it up. Ukraine is a strategic point of interest for the west and are more than likely to rebuild for them in return for super friendly trade deals. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattyCR: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Balu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
If that first clip is from a pro Putin talk show, then I guess what he is saying is that it must either be total victory over Ukraine, or the end of Russia. Am I understanding that correctly? He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. The perception of power *is* power . . . and the world's perception of Russia is that they couldn't knock over a lemonade stand run by a troop of girl scouts at this point. If they don't win definitively - total surrender without conditions - then they lose. Period. They are setting the stage for escalation. What other choice do they have? Serious question. Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. That's a completely untenable end state for Ukraine. Why would they even consider a "deal" like that? They would be fools to agree to anything less than the restoration of Ukraine's Budapest Accord borders. Uggh, unless the US/NATO somehow put boots on the ground in Ukraine, or Putin 'dies from covid', that peace deal is the single best outcome Ukraine can hope for. Russia is a bunch of brutish, drunken oafs weilding ancient weapons built by commies... but they have an authoritarian regime, 140 million people, and a bottomless stockpile of dumb bombs and artillery. Collectively, Russia can institute a draft, zombie horde this out, taking insane casualties but steadily scouring ukrainian cities from the earth. Every day this war goes on, more of Ukraine is smashed to rubble. Already Mariupol looks like downtown Syria. Once this happens to every city, Ukraine (a poor country pre-invasion) will be effectively destroyed, destined to poverty and misery for decades barring a complete $100+ Billion rebuilding fund from the west. So, by comparison, that peace deal is pretty sweet; its essentially a status quo antebellum, recognizing the facts on the ground that existed pre-invasion. Sucks but thats reality. Marshall Plan, look it up. Ukraine is a strategic point of interest for the west and are more than likely to rebuild for them in return for super friendly trade deals. The only strategic point of interest the US had in Ukraine was keeping Russia from having it, and then later this was shifted to turning Ukraine into a meat grinder for Russia. That later objective has been achieved. Pre and post invasion, the US had/has little if any economic, cultural, or military association with Ukraine. Its a pretty useless country for the US; had Russia not taken Crimea in 2014 it would hold similar US interest to Romania or North Macedonia. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:52:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkNH: That's your reality. What actually sucks is you trying to justify UA quitting when they're currently winning the war. Russia is losing lots of people, most units in combat are becoming ineffective, Russia has lost they're just trying to figure out how to end it with the least embarrassment. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkNH: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Sucks but thats reality. That's your reality. What actually sucks is you trying to justify UA quitting when they're currently winning the war. Russia is losing lots of people, most units in combat are becoming ineffective, Russia has lost they're just trying to figure out how to end it with the least embarrassment. I'm not advocating that they quit at all; they should stack as many russian bodies as they can until they can strike a tolerable peace deal. Killing as many russians as they can is their chief negotiating chip; its also the only strategic point to the killing - they more they kill, the better deal they can strike. But ending the war in a peace deal - where concessions are made to Russia as thats how peace deals are done - is their best realistic outcome. The idea that Ukraine, weilding tractors and javelins, is going to roll back russia and retake crimea, or that russia is just going to retreat in shame back to their original borders, is a fantasy barring Putin being deposed and replaced by a western puppet. If some deal is not made, Russia is going to systematically shell and destroy every city and piece of critical infrastructure they can reach, casualties be damned. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 2:56:58 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? Russia would have been de-communized had we undertaken a Marshall Plan 2.0, and systematically changed their economy and political system from a commie command economy into a democratic capitalist society. Thats the whole point. Instead we just let them collapse, did nothing to really re-integrate them or rebuild them in our image, and allowed it to turn into a mafia state run by a mix of oligarchs and fsb operatives. At which point we then spent years kicking sand in their faces, treating them like a has been bitch, and then acted surprised when the old enmities returned. It was tremendously short sighted policy. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:01:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lycurgus]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Russia would have been de-communized had we undertaken a Marshall Plan 2.0, and systematically changed their economy and political system from a commie command economy into a democratic capitalist society. Thats the whole point. Instead we just let them collapse, did nothing to really re-integrate them or rebuild them in our image, and allowed it to turn into a mafia state run by a mix of oligarchs and fsb operatives. At which point we then spent years kicking sand in their faces, treating them like a has been bitch, and then acted surprised when the old enmities returned. It was tremendously short sighted policy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? Russia would have been de-communized had we undertaken a Marshall Plan 2.0, and systematically changed their economy and political system from a commie command economy into a democratic capitalist society. Thats the whole point. Instead we just let them collapse, did nothing to really re-integrate them or rebuild them in our image, and allowed it to turn into a mafia state run by a mix of oligarchs and fsb operatives. At which point we then spent years kicking sand in their faces, treating them like a has been bitch, and then acted surprised when the old enmities returned. It was tremendously short sighted policy. The most important step post Soviet Union would have been for the Russians to have undergone a national introspection similar to what Germany underwent post WWII (Vergangenheitsbewältigung): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergangenheitsbew%C3%A4ltigung Unfortunately, there was no impetus for that to happen (though there were some aborted steps taken in that direction) and I don't see it happening any time in the near future. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:09:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast America did pour money into Russia during the Yeltsin era. All it did was result in a lot of Russians expecting middleclass lives and instead lost much of what little they had while a few became incredibly rich without one speck of creating anything. America was setup and got the blame for the giant robbery and we were robbed to. What America should of done us simply stated all that democracy and capitalist stuff America was talking about, that is not what Yeltsin and Yeltsin appointed successor Putin brought you |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:15:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: spydercomonkey]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ligore: America did pour money into Russia during the Yeltsin era. All it did was result in a lot of Russians expecting middleclass lives and instead lost much of what little they had while a few became incredibly rich without one speck of creating anything. America was setup and got the blame for the giant robbery and we were robbed to. What America should of done us simply stated all that democracy and capitalist stuff America was talking about, that is not what Yeltsin and Yeltsin appointed successor Putin brought you Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ligore: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast America did pour money into Russia during the Yeltsin era. All it did was result in a lot of Russians expecting middleclass lives and instead lost much of what little they had while a few became incredibly rich without one speck of creating anything. America was setup and got the blame for the giant robbery and we were robbed to. What America should of done us simply stated all that democracy and capitalist stuff America was talking about, that is not what Yeltsin and Yeltsin appointed successor Putin brought you It wasn't done in a systemic, organized fashion, spanning a decade, which is what would have been required. This was something that needed and required being the main foreign policy focus of the 90's; given the low stakes at the time we certainly had the time and the resources to do it. That also would have prevented Putin from coming to power in 2000... We didn't just dump some cash in Germany and Japan and then bounce, hoping for the best. Like I said, theres a parallel universe (probably one where Ross Perot didnt run, and Bush 1 got a 2nd term...) where this happened. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:19:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: spydercomonkey]
[#20]
Pretty epic photo from Mariupol:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpq2a5/photos_from_mariupol/ And well equipped Ukranian SF  https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpwfz8/ukrainian_special_forces_in_irpin_kyiv_region/ |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:23:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: It wasn't done in a systemic, organized fashion, spanning a decade, which is what would have been required. This was something that needed and required being the main foreign policy focus of the 90's; given the low stakes at the time we certainly had the time and the resources to do it. That also would have prevented Putin from coming to power in 2000... We didn't just dump some cash in Germany and Japan and then bounce, hoping for the best. Like I said, theres a parallel universe (probably one where Ross Perot didnt run, and Bush 1 got a 2nd term...) where this happened. Well that sounds very politician like without being specific on anything. Yeltsin chose Putin. He didn't stand at the head of a angry mob, stormed Moscow and throw out Yeltsin. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:30:23 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ligore: Well that sounds very politician like without being specific on anything. Yeltsin chose Putin. He didn't stand at the head of a angry mob, stormed Moscow and throw out Yeltsin. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ligore: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: It wasn't done in a systemic, organized fashion, spanning a decade, which is what would have been required. This was something that needed and required being the main foreign policy focus of the 90's; given the low stakes at the time we certainly had the time and the resources to do it. That also would have prevented Putin from coming to power in 2000... We didn't just dump some cash in Germany and Japan and then bounce, hoping for the best. Like I said, theres a parallel universe (probably one where Ross Perot didnt run, and Bush 1 got a 2nd term...) where this happened. Well that sounds very politician like without being specific on anything. Yeltsin chose Putin. He didn't stand at the head of a angry mob, stormed Moscow and throw out Yeltsin. He got chosen in 1999-2000...which wouldnt have happened had the US/EU had an army of economists and political advisors in Russia from 1991-1999 working to turn them into a capitalist democracy in exchange for massive investment and economic integration. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 3:45:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Germany was (legitimately) de-Nazified post-WW2. War crimes trials were held and Nazis Party members were executed en masse for the millions murdered. In fact, Nazis are still hunted down and brought to justice today. When exactly was Russia "de-Communized"? How many trials and executions for those Communist Party members that oversaw the deaths of, easily, +5x as many as the Nazis killed? That's right, they all just traded their Soviet uniforms in for business suits... A Communist Party apparatchik, sans the drab apparel, runs Russia today. How exactly were they "recreated" as an enemy when nothing actually fundamentally changed except their economic system? Facts. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 4:19:49 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Pretty epic photo from Mariupol: https://preview.redd.it/26nvvhrozyp81.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db12d904e198a4d302b8b63adaf5de0dc337bf56 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpq2a5/photos_from_mariupol/ And well equipped Ukranian SF https://preview.redd.it/m7nyzthvk0q81.jpg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d412b739922acb8e18dcdf283b8570ff4b800707 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpwfz8/ukrainian_special_forces_in_irpin_kyiv_region/ That’s terrible- you’ve got to download the Reddit ap to see those links and photos. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 4:38:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HiramRanger: There is a Ukrainian movie called Cyborgs on YouTube about the 2014 siege of the Donbas Airport. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HiramRanger: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: Originally Posted By glockluv: Originally Posted By Auto5guy: "Orc" is about the most brilliant propaganda label I've seen in my lifetime. While derogatory labels like "Lobsterback", and "Kraut" have been applied in the past I would say they depersonalize more than dehumanize the enemy. "Orc" is on an entirely new level. An entire generation has grown up with the understanding that an orc isn't just not a human being, it's evil in it's very existence. The entire trilogy of films featuring these creatures builds to a climax that brings the audience to cheers when the orcs are not just defeated... But exterminated from the face of the earth! This is why I miss Liveleaks. "Orc" and "Cyborg" were common phrases used to scream at each other over the internet circa 2015 on Russia/Ukraine combat videos. Not really regarding the Cyborg name. Here is an article to read: https://content.osgnetworks.tv/firearmsnews/content/photos/ukrainian-cyborg-interview-001-1200x800.jpg Dispatches From the Ukrainian Front: The reality of war in Ukraine: An interview with a Ukrainian cyborg There is a Ukrainian movie called Cyborgs on YouTube about the 2014 siege of the Donbas Airport.  '5 Cyborgs': Watch the inside story of the Battle for Donetsk Airport on Ukraine Today Debaltseve. Interviews with 5 survivors who were there, with some combat footage. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 5:50:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 6SJ7GT: Biden was awful quick to offer Zelenski a ride. How deep was he involved? That was not only what biden wanted, its what he would have done in that situation. It was the easiest answer for biden. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:23:41 AM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:24:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: You're obviously upset and not picking up what I'm laying down. I could care less what they do with Russian prisoners but they shouldn't do it on camera. It's not about morality and I doubt I am a moral person by your standards. It is simple arithmetic. The better it seems they are treating Russian prisoners the more likely they are to surrender. The more of them surrender the quicker the war will be over and the less Ukrainian civilians will be killed. This seems like a good thing to me but I suppose this thread isn't really about that is it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: Originally Posted By HiramRanger: You have the luxury of opining that way because you’re sitting in the cheap seats. You can moralize all you want because it’s not your ass on the line or your people suffering. Russians will invent the propaganda to that effect whether it happens or not. Their idiot citizenry believes the Nazi narrative. I have no problem with them greasing collaborators. You're obviously upset and not picking up what I'm laying down. I could care less what they do with Russian prisoners but they shouldn't do it on camera. It's not about morality and I doubt I am a moral person by your standards. It is simple arithmetic. The better it seems they are treating Russian prisoners the more likely they are to surrender. The more of them surrender the quicker the war will be over and the less Ukrainian civilians will be killed. This seems like a good thing to me but I suppose this thread isn't really about that is it. You're missing the pount, comrade. Is Rooskie instructional weedio about how treat Rooskie epw. For big medals. Now get back on your feet. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:35:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MNGearhead: The clip in the first tweet, Holy Shit. Putin's people are pushing him "either you win this, or you start the final countdown".  Europe - The Final Countdown (Official Video) I couldn't resist. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:52:24 AM EDT
[#30]
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:52:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: heavily_armed]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: That’s terrible- you’ve got to download the Reddit ap to see those links and photos. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Pretty epic photo from Mariupol: https://preview.redd.it/26nvvhrozyp81.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db12d904e198a4d302b8b63adaf5de0dc337bf56 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpq2a5/photos_from_mariupol/ And well equipped Ukranian SF https://preview.redd.it/m7nyzthvk0q81.jpg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d412b739922acb8e18dcdf283b8570ff4b800707 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpwfz8/ukrainian_special_forces_in_irpin_kyiv_region/ That’s terrible- you’ve got to download the Reddit ap to see those links and photos. Most reddit links you can replace the www in the url with old (to get their old user interface). Their new UI uses the distraction-based content presentation model and sucks a bag of dicks. https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpq2a5/photos_from_mariupol/ |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:53:01 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 3/28/2022 6:55:43 AM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:08:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. They had that about a month ago. Then, they fired up the time machine, brought down the oligarchy, or should we say bourgeois, and sent the proletariat to die on the fields of Ukraine pursuing an invisible Nazi which they think they're liberating Ukraine from. Dude, those people are about as sane as the milkshake protestors who think that cats are actually the reincarnated Hitler. Sleepy Joe finally blurts out in front of the whole world what we're all really thinking, and his own people try to walk it back. Face it, they've gone insane. They trashed their own economy, imprisoned their own people, and are sending thousands more to the meat grinder in order to get back to the glory days of the USSR? The simple truth is that Putin has lost his mind. They had it all, and freedom, and their oil business was booming. All that stands to be destroyed, aling with a lot of other countries that were only too happy to do business with them, and would never have let Americans call the shots there. This entire situation defies logic to the extreme. It's not rational. In their present state a war will not be sustainable. In our present state, due to the shutdown of our oil and gas production, we are not far behind. Mostly because we've been listening to known tards who think they know better. We're going to end up blowing the entire planet to smithereens and accomplish nothing. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:14:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. Thanks to all who responded to my question. Here's to hoping that they are saying that just to rally the country around dear leader Putin, and that it isn't going to actually drive their decision making going forward. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:16:48 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By aeroworksxp: I was looking at the Ukrainian presidential advisers twitter and noticed this red and black flag mixed with the Ukrainian flag on his cover photo. What does the red and black mean? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/327887/20220327_225749_jpg-2328811.JPG Red Sector. Mariopol nationalist. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:17:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: Someone tag Ben |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:24:31 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattyCR: Biden was the VP for nearly everything on your list, you tell me if he had anything to do with US response to it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattyCR: Originally Posted By SpaceGuy: Originally Posted By SmilinEd: Biden caused Russia to attack Georgia in 2008? Biden caused Russia to annex Crimea in 2014? Biden caused Russia to provide arms and protect the LPR and DPR in 2015? Biden caused Russia to add dozens of BTGs on its Ukrainian border during Trump's administration? Wow. Joe Biden must be the most Machiavellian politician in world history! The whole world's diplomatic choices revolve around Biden pulling troops from Afghanistan which Trump was the one that signed off on! How did Biden make Trump make that choice!?!? Biden was the VP for nearly everything on your list, you tell me if he had anything to do with US response to it.   Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:36:05 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fat_McNasty: Oh god I hope so, I need a project to keep me busy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fat_McNasty: Originally Posted By GreenMushroom: If we don't stop Putin today there could be a broken down Russian tank in your front yard tomorrow Oh god I hope so, I need a project to keep me busy. Agreed. Not seeing a problem with that scenario.  |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:41:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MNGearhead: Agreed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MNGearhead: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Chokey, your posts in this thread are gold. Don't let the commentariat drag you down.  Agreed. Ditto. Chokey always posts quality updates in news threads like this. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:43:08 AM EDT
[#41]
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:52:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
Looks like they deserted it. Another Mosin in the wild. https://twitter.com/RT_russian/status/1508382822175850497 ETA more https://twitter.com/b_misteryo/status/1508362355465461760 https://twitter.com/M_Simonyan/status/1508368294155210753 https://twitter.com/tinso_ww/status/1508384145558413320 |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:57:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
If that first clip is from a pro Putin talk show, then I guess what he is saying is that it must either be total victory over Ukraine, or the end of Russia. Am I understanding that correctly? He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. The perception of power *is* power . . . and the world's perception of Russia is that they couldn't knock over a lemonade stand run by a troop of girl scouts at this point. If they don't win definitively - total surrender without conditions - then they lose. Period. They are setting the stage for escalation. What other choice do they have? Serious question. Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. Your three points are the exact ones I made before the invasion, though I added the restoration of water flow through the Crimean canal. I'm convinced that if they had been offered before that he wouldn't have invaded. That is NOT to say that I think he should get those things, or that Ukraine should agree to such demands. Sanctions are going to be a political problem for the west regardless. If Russian wells, pipelines, and refineries are permanently damaged (see Zeihan), the oil shock will be politically untenable. If images of starving people hit the news because Russian grain isn't arriving, yet another politically untenable situation will develop. Like it or not, Russia is an important world supplier of both commodities. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:07:29 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheAlmightyYak: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/386370/6548640F-5508-4F65-BEA4-1EF8C4B1A96D_jpe-2328561.JPG  |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:15:35 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast 1) Agreed. I have posted here many times what a colossal mistake it was listening to Kissinger and backing the CCP rather than looking forward to Eastern Europe as a far,far,far better place to invest for countless reasons. 2) Impossible. Russia has never had any interest in being a friend and Putin chose his course freely. Nobody made him an enemy,he could have guided Russia to being an open society with a free market had he chosen to not simply be boss of a criminal enterprise. 3) America wanted blood after 9/11 and it wasn’t sufficiently spilled in Afghanistan with Bin Laden being given shelter by the true perpetrators. The post about “America doesn’t have an interest in Ukraine” is myopic because it should have. Ukraine had,and certainly has,a great deal to offer the EU and US. It is American and Western European chauvinism that looks down upon it rather than seeing potential for energy,agriculture and technology. The same people who built Antonovs can build anything to a higher quality than Chinese and it is shameful that investments weren’t made rather than having this view of “they’re just corrupt sort of Russians that need to be in Russian sphere of influence because I heard that and think it sounds knowledgeable to repeat”. It would take far less effort to move goods from Odessa to US and EU markets than from Shenzhen. It doesn’t matter because this didn’t happen,America wanted to stick with China and Germany was too in love with the idea of cheap Russian gas. It isn’t just Germany being so wrong about Putin https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-merkel-germany-scholz-foreign-policy-ukraine-war-invasion-nord-stream-2/ It is America being absolutely wrong about China. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:20:55 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: That’s terrible- you’ve got to download the Reddit ap to see those links and photos. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Pretty epic photo from Mariupol: https://preview.redd.it/26nvvhrozyp81.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db12d904e198a4d302b8b63adaf5de0dc337bf56 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpq2a5/photos_from_mariupol/ And well equipped Ukranian SF https://preview.redd.it/m7nyzthvk0q81.jpg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d412b739922acb8e18dcdf283b8570ff4b800707 https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tpwfz8/ukrainian_special_forces_in_irpin_kyiv_region/ That’s terrible- you’ve got to download the Reddit ap to see those links and photos.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:24:45 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: Your three points are the exact ones I made before the invasion, though I added the restoration of water flow through the Crimean canal. I'm convinced that if they had been offered before that he wouldn't have invaded. That is NOT to say that I think he should get those things, or that Ukraine should agree to such demands. Sanctions are going to be a political problem for the west regardless. If Russian wells, pipelines, and refineries are permanently damaged (see Zeihan), the oil shock will be politically untenable. If images of starving people hit the news because Russian grain isn't arriving, yet another politically untenable situation will develop. Like it or not, Russia is an important world supplier of both commodities. There is no imaginable condition short of installation of another Russian puppet that would have stopped an invasion,you and many others just need to stop with this fantasy. Do you understand why it was so important to destroy Mariupol? It wasn’t because it was a den of Nazis oppressing the Russian speaking population,it was because Ukraine had invested in it the past 8 years and it looking like this was an embarrassment to Putin  Attached FileIt is the same as why he loathes us: disgust at seeing what people who aren’t under Russia’s thumb can accomplish. Russia is a bully jock who detests that the poor kid who worked hard in school became successful. It’s simply that there has to be a period where the kid who worked hard in school is mocked for having a couple shitty jobs before moving forward while the bully gets to live in past meathead glory. It really is this simple to understand Russian actions: Putin detests seeing democracy,rule of law and economic and social freedom because he could not rule with these things. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:24:54 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpaceGuy: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO58-DrXsAAsrGQ?format=jpg&name=small If you've watched the oscars and just heard the news... |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:27:28 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: IMO, that's just completely unrealistic. Japan and Germany were completely defeated along with the ideologies that destroyed them. Russia merely lost control of the countries they were occupying. They remained an independent state. The government was re-formed, the same personnel recycled, and the expansionist russocentric ideology remained. Without a purge of the ruling class, all we would have achieved was funding the creation of a massively more powerful enemy. I would love if we were friendly, working together. Bush tried to be friends and Putin made him look like a fool. It seems deeply ingrained in their strategic culture to oppose us in every way possible. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast IMO, that's just completely unrealistic. Japan and Germany were completely defeated along with the ideologies that destroyed them. Russia merely lost control of the countries they were occupying. They remained an independent state. The government was re-formed, the same personnel recycled, and the expansionist russocentric ideology remained. Without a purge of the ruling class, all we would have achieved was funding the creation of a massively more powerful enemy. I would love if we were friendly, working together. Bush tried to be friends and Putin made him look like a fool. It seems deeply ingrained in their strategic culture to oppose us in every way possible. I didn’t forget when the iron curtain fell. Everyone and his dog was all excited to make Russia our best new pal. I don’t know this talk of “we should’ve helped them but didn’t” is coming from. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:40:15 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Russia would have been de-communized had we undertaken a Marshall Plan 2.0, and systematically changed their economy and political system from a commie command economy into a democratic capitalist society. Thats the whole point. Instead we just let them collapse, did nothing to really re-integrate them or rebuild them in our image, and allowed it to turn into a mafia state run by a mix of oligarchs and fsb operatives. At which point we then spent years kicking sand in their faces, treating them like a has been bitch, and then acted surprised when the old enmities returned. It was tremendously short sighted policy. You miss the obvious; the US goobermint NEEDED Russia as an enemy. |
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