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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:45:51 PM EST
[#1]
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:47:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: Oiparhon]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By centex_SR-15: I was wondering why I see so many passably Latina appearing women from there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By centex_SR-15: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: There is actually an Iranian/Persian DNA connection to Ukrainians. A large nomadic Iranian tribe settled in many parts of Ukraine called the Sythians. More info here: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CS%5CC%5CScythians.htm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians I was wondering why I see so many passably Latina appearing women from there. If we hold with the ancients, the scythians of those days did not look like today's Iranians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Physical_appearance In Histories, the 5th century BC Greek historian Halicarnassus of Halicarnassus describes the Budini of Scythia as red-haired and grey-eyed. In the 5th century BC, Greek physician Hippocrates argued that the Scythians were light skinned as well as having a particularly high rate of hypermobility, to a point of affecting warfare. In the 3rd century BC, the Greek poet Callimachus described the Arismapes (of Scythia as fair-haired. The 2nd-century BC Han Chinese envoy Zhang Qian described the Sai (Saka), an eastern people closely related to the Scythians, as having yellow (probably meaning hazel or green) and blue eyes. In Natural History, the 1st century CE Roman author Pliny the Elder characterises the Seres, sometimes identified as Saka or Tocharians, as red-haired, blue-eyed and unusually tall. In the late 2nd century AD, the Christian theologian Clement of Alexandria says that the Scythians and the Celts have long auburn hair. The 2nd century Greek philosopher Polemon includes the Scythians among the northern peoples characterised by red hair and blue-grey eyes. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:48:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: You're right about that. It would probably be easier to get a hasty SDZ approved to fire into an occupied training area than to get approval to dig fighting positions in a fucking field.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By CharlieR: In the Big Army up to about 2005, it was informally considered one of those ways you could tell a good unit from the bad. Im talking out in the field, training. Good units roadmarched everywhere, got in little triangle shaped perimeters about 1800, dug little hasty prone positions about 18 inches down, and did stand to, where 1/2 hour before sunrise you are at 100% security, ruck packed, pulling security. Bad units rode in trucks, slept in, and their patrol bases looked like gypsy camps, hootched up 24/7. Bad units were about twice as good as the Russians. You can tell some of these Ukrainians have excellent field discipline. Hunter or hunted types of indicators. The Brits, when I worked with them, had outstanding field discipline. The USMC did as well. These were all the sorts of little useless things that we all incorporated as to "field discipline." There was a period of time when young guys had no combat experience and old guys were Vietnam vets, and to be honest there was a strong crossover between Ranger school, things guys did in Vietnam, and the sorts of things a CSM might be looking for when he eyeballs your perimeter. A lot of leaders were light on garrison discipline, like spitshining boots and barracks inspection, but a good trooper dug in and pulled security, and was up at stand to. A good LT took his turn on radio watch and trooped the lines between 0100 and 0400. Everyone dug their own holes. I would hope it makes a comeback, along with the other sorts of things. In my experience noone really likes discipline, but troopers took pride and would show ownership of field discipline if there was a point to it. Sometimes one unit would ruck by another and there would be eyeballing and sizing each other up. Noone really cared about drill, spit and polish. Stuff like that soldiers complain about that non-sexy Army stuff, but it pays off in the end. There was probably an environmental issue involved, I remember late in my military career, if you wanted to build fighting positions or entrench you had to plan it way in advance and get the base environmental people involved at most bases. You're right about that. It would probably be easier to get a hasty SDZ approved to fire into an occupied training area than to get approval to dig fighting positions in a fucking field. Aberdeen proving ground is all a wetland wildlife preserve… if you want to do ANY new disruption of the soil or building of any kind, be it a parking lot or a shed, you have to move prohibitive mountains of paperwork… |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:48:50 PM EST
[#4]
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:52:57 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jungatheart: I think you did just fine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jungatheart: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fe-SttSX0AA18la?format=jpg&name=900x900 Man few things are as telling about a society and people as how they treat their pets… pets are at our mercy. If you’re cruel to them… well we all know if you love them you stand a much better chance at being civilized. Someone better than me can explain the high level analysis I think you did just fine. Yep, how a society treats the helpless be it the infirm, children, or animals is a great barometer on the health of that society. As I posted in regards to the video of the folks helping evacuate and shelter the dogs and cats a few pages ago... Proverbs 12:10: A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:54:22 PM EST
[#6]
This will ruffle some feathers https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202210130011
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ME, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:58:44 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryMmm Ukrainian tractor will really be hunting those. They would be great for installing field drainage 
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:03:39 PM EST
[#8]
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:04:23 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th:
 Assuming there's still a bridge by then. Yeah that bridge got jacked up. I bet they'll have to remove those supports and put in whole new ones. But of course Russia has to downplay it as "tis but a scratch" |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:05:30 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: lol, they were an interesting source of info at times.  |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:06:09 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: Well, there go the last of the semi-accurate Russian sources. Semi-accurate may be generous, but you know what I mean. Maybe "somewhat self aware" is better? |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:08:24 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: The MT-LB does not seem to get much respect on Arfcom. OTOH, Ukraine’s “mud season” approaches and anything with tracks will probably help the Ukrainians get around, even if the MT-LB is not a great fighting vehicle: sure - it’s old: it’s roots lie in the 1950s. http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2/2705_108351059_mtlb1.jpeg This is the Wiki history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-LB Here is an AA version: https://everipedia-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/NewlinkFiles/11754145/30758463.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By Prime: They’re either learning or too lazy to get those weird flat boxes out of the way before they set stuff down.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fe9OrtfWIAE8GKs?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fe9l90FXwAIOtVn?format=jpg&name=small The MT-LB does not seem to get much respect on Arfcom. OTOH, Ukraine’s “mud season” approaches and anything with tracks will probably help the Ukrainians get around, even if the MT-LB is not a great fighting vehicle: sure - it’s old: it’s roots lie in the 1950s. http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2/2705_108351059_mtlb1.jpeg This is the Wiki history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-LB Here is an AA version: https://everipedia-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/NewlinkFiles/11754145/30758463.JPG Okay, I'll admit the AA version is cool as shit in a post apocalyptic Road Warrior kind of way... I'll take two!
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:08:58 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: lol, they were an interesting source of info at times. Girkin was a funny mixture of patriotic optimism and sarcastic self deprecating analysis of ongoing Russian screwups and ineptitude. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:10:04 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Ukranians are nailing their power supply in order to disrupt the russian logistics? Is that probably it? Or was that one of the Russian outbound missiles intended for Ukraine but wanted no part of UA ADA like the RU air force. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:14:50 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Was that some kind of airburst? It looked like they got hit with a shotgun from above. I think it was just arty hitting to the left of the camera guy. That small impact to his front was frag from the detonation further to his left, mostly off camera, I believe. And he took some to his leg also since he was down after. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:16:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#16]
Interesting, this is related to US chip manufacturing and new export regulations affecting China.
The US government's new export controls are wreaking havoc on China's chip industry. New rules around "US persons" are driving an "industry-wide decapitation." https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1580889341265469440.html |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:19:09 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Is that a female? He/she runs like a female. Who/whatever they are they are freaking out in total panic. Also has no gun or "gear" but nice running shoes. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:22:33 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Oiparhon: If we hold with the ancients, the scythians of those days did not look like today's Iranians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Physical_appearance In Histories, the 5th century BC Greek historian Halicarnassus of Halicarnassus describes the Budini of Scythia as red-haired and grey-eyed. In the 5th century BC, Greek physician Hippocrates argued that the Scythians were light skinned as well as having a particularly high rate of hypermobility, to a point of affecting warfare. In the 3rd century BC, the Greek poet Callimachus described the Arismapes (of Scythia as fair-haired. The 2nd-century BC Han Chinese envoy Zhang Qian described the Sai (Saka), an eastern people closely related to the Scythians, as having yellow (probably meaning hazel or green) and blue eyes. In Natural History, the 1st century CE Roman author Pliny the Elder characterises the Seres, sometimes identified as Saka or Tocharians, as red-haired, blue-eyed and unusually tall. In the late 2nd century AD, the Christian theologian Clement of Alexandria says that the Scythians and the Celts have long auburn hair. The 2nd century Greek philosopher Polemon includes the Scythians among the northern peoples characterised by red hair and blue-grey eyes. Interesting. My daughter is a Scythian with bright curly flaming red hair. Most likely from her mother's side (Russian Jew). |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:24:41 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Interesting, this is related to US chip manufacturing and new export regulations affecting China. People don't think software-based control and royalty systems be like they is, but they do. China can make copies of chips for which we provide them designs. Their chip design programs and fabs don't run without some phone-home action. I'm not saying the chinese couldn't bypass those systems and run on their own, but they'd do so at considerable outright expense, delay and cost compared to using developed, western-based systems. The chicoms can domestically roll low-yield 7nm on equipment they control, but they can't scale it, at least not yet. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:25:45 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: The MT-LB does not seem to get much respect on Arfcom. OTOH, Ukraine’s “mud season” approaches and anything with tracks will probably help the Ukrainians get around, even if the MT-LB is not a great fighting vehicle: sure - it’s old: it’s roots lie in the 1950s. http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2/2705_108351059_mtlb1.jpeg This is the Wiki history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-LB It's a very versatile vehicle I would love to own Here is an AA version: https://everipedia-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/NewlinkFiles/11754145/30758463.JPG |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:26:01 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: Do the Koreans have a long range variant like our ATACMS? I would love to see Russian bases and rail yards hit far behind the lines. They are making their own version of the Atacms |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:28:07 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Yeah that bridge got jacked up. I bet they'll have to remove those supports and put in whole new ones. But of course Russia has to downplay it as "tis but a scratch" Russia rolls the heavies to do reconstruction... [ HIMARS has entered the chat ] |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:33:03 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: I just don't get the soviet/russian culture. If I came to the understanding that they were going to send my young adult son into this meat grinder just to die I would be angry. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By HIPPO: Attention mobik shoppers!
I just don't get the soviet/russian culture. If I came to the understanding that they were going to send my young adult son into this meat grinder just to die I would be angry. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:36:03 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Is that a female? He/she runs like a female. Who/whatever they are they are freaking out in total panic. Also has no gun or "gear" but nice running shoes. It looked to me like they had an injury to the right hips or legs. I think I saw a bunch of blood and they were dragging that leg. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:40:59 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: Mmm Ukrainian tractor will really be hunting those. They would be great for installing field drainage |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:42:40 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryDoes the US have something similar to this? Just curious |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:46:29 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OBird: Does the US have something similar to this? Just curious |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:55:12 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By torstin: How does Poland pay for their defense? I may be out of touch with Eastern Europe but I can't name a single Polish company, or product produced in Poland or even a resource they might export. Duh, Polski Wyrobi pickles of course. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 1:59:38 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Interesting, this is related to US chip manufacturing and new export regulations affecting China. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1580889341265469440.html That is something I had a misconception on. A few months ago I thought China were the ones dominating chip making and holding us all by the balls. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:02:35 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Would explain the looks of a few Ukrainian women I see. I’ve noticed not all Ukrainian women look exactly the same. Big country of course. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: There is actually an Iranian/Persian DNA connection to Ukrainians. A large nomadic Iranian tribe settled in many parts of Ukraine called the Sythians. More info here: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CS%5CC%5CScythians.htm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians Would explain the looks of a few Ukrainian women I see. I’ve noticed not all Ukrainian women look exactly the same. Big country of course. I wondered that as well. I have noticed quite a few Ukrainian women with dark hair and eyes and was curious where that came from. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:02:51 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Star_Scream: Like others have mentioned his actions are very much Pro-Ukraine. I bet when this is over Starlink will be credited as a major factor. Russia is completely failing at comms and Ukraine isn't. But to come out and say "Give Russia everything they want, ignore all the damages and losses you've taken and be left vulnerable" doesn't seem to match what he's done. The whole problem with people on both ends of the Musk spectrum is that he is not some perfect hero or villain. He is a wicked smart and driven aspy dude, with a shit load of money and a penchant for speaking his mind openly on the internet. For me, his sincerity is evident from there inconsistencies in his messaging and beliefs. He speaks of goals and aspirations and falls short of the often. He will cross some lines if he believes that it will advance one of his critical goals. One of his main goals seems to be to get the human race to a point where we can avoid our own extinction. While supporting Ukraine makes sense to him, there is a logical limit to most people. He is okay with spending $100M of his companies money to provide a communication system for Ukraine to fight a conventional war, but it stops short of a full scale nuclear exchange. Hence, his willingness to propose a plan that would let Russia keep some of its stolen land. Our thirst for heros and villains drives us to irrationality and is ultimately ripping our country apart |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:08:47 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BerettaGuy: Putin is dreaming of Russian human wave victories - those went out the window many decades ago. He is buying time until his Mussolini moment. Does Lukoil use gas station canopies that are as sturdy as the ones Esso had in Italy? Maybe we'll find out soon. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:16:43 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cpermd: Duh, Polski Wyrobi pickles of course. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cpermd: Originally Posted By torstin: How does Poland pay for their defense? I may be out of touch with Eastern Europe but I can't name a single Polish company, or product produced in Poland or even a resource they might export. Duh, Polski Wyrobi pickles of course. Can't forget Poland Spring water. See it everywhere |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:16:56 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: That is something I had a misconception on. A few months ago I thought China were the ones dominating chip making and holding us all by the balls. China has a lot of physical plant, but they don't run the show. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:20:13 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: CAP with Harpoons on Modified Mig 29s and SU27s for grain shipments. Sink the Russian ships bold enough to come play. They don’t have any way to counter the Russian diesel subs. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:20:45 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Yeah that bridge got jacked up. I bet they'll have to remove those supports and put in whole new ones. But of course Russia has to downplay it as "tis but a scratch" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By Zam18th:
Assuming there's still a bridge by then. Yeah that bridge got jacked up. I bet they'll have to remove those supports and put in whole new ones. But of course Russia has to downplay it as "tis but a scratch" It would go faster if they didn't have to go through all the environmental impact studies. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:27:21 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagger41: Russia has broken all but one law when it comes to warfare. It's unconscionable what that country is doing, they are the dirtiest and the sickest bastards that the World has seen since WWII nazi's. Even worse, they will never show remorse or accept atonement. The must be stopped. With extreme prejudice. If China goes to war, they'll make Russia look like choir Boys. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:28:13 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Interesting, this is related to US chip manufacturing and new export regulations affecting China. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1580889341265469440.html Holy shit. Is this legit? |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:28:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: Erno86]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Aberdeen proving ground is all a wetland wildlife preserve… if you want to do ANY new disruption of the soil or building of any kind, be it a parking lot or a shed, you have to move prohibitive mountains of paperwork… About 15 years ago...my survey party chief, dug up a buried, live hand grenade with a shovel; that he located with an electronic metal pipe finder at Aberdeen Proving Ground. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:30:41 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
They are now eating their own. Let the consumption become prolific... |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:35:22 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Ukranians are nailing their power supply in order to disrupt the russian logistics? Is that probably it? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Ukranians are nailing their power supply in order to disrupt the russian logistics? Is that probably it? tit for tat. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:38:00 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: This will ruffle some feathers https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202210130011 Eat shit Russia and china |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:44:43 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: This will ruffle some feathers https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202210130011 Damned if this doesn't look like it's coming down as a battle of good vs. evil. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:45:17 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Erno86: About 15 years ago...my survey party chief, dug up a buried, live hand grenade with a shovel; that he located with an electronic metal pipe finder at Aberdeen Proving Ground. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:46:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: Erno86]
[#45]
"The Battle For Bakhmut: Ukrainian Troops Hold On Amid Hail Of Russian Artillery"  The Battle For Bakhmut: Ukrainian Troops Hold On Amid Hail Of Russian Artillery |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:48:09 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VooDoo3dfx: If China goes to war, they'll make Russia look like choir Boys. Probably a big amount of fuck up. It is still a centralize command, with zero combat experience or war fighting culture. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:48:21 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Circuits: China has a lot of physical plant, but they don't run the show. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Circuits: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: That is something I had a misconception on. A few months ago I thought China were the ones dominating chip making and holding us all by the balls. China has a lot of physical plant, but they don't run the show. I don't think we should underestimate them though.... |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:48:54 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VooDoo3dfx: If China goes to war, they'll make Russia look like choir Boys. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VooDoo3dfx: Originally Posted By Dagger41: Russia has broken all but one law when it comes to warfare. It's unconscionable what that country is doing, they are the dirtiest and the sickest bastards that the World has seen since WWII nazi's. Even worse, they will never show remorse or accept atonement. The must be stopped. With extreme prejudice. If China goes to war, they'll make Russia look like choir Boys. Could lend them some p3's |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:51:26 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grambosc: Does Lukoil use gas station canopies that are as sturdy as the ones Esso had in Italy? Maybe we'll find out soon. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grambosc: Originally Posted By BerettaGuy: Putin is dreaming of Russian human wave victories - those went out the window many decades ago. He is buying time until his Mussolini moment. Does Lukoil use gas station canopies that are as sturdy as the ones Esso had in Italy? Maybe we'll find out soon. Funny! (Creative too.) |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:56:56 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns: The whole problem with people on both ends of the Musk spectrum is that he is not some perfect hero or villain. He is a wicked smart and driven aspy dude, with a shit load of money and a penchant for speaking his mind openly on the internet. For me, his sincerity is evident from there inconsistencies in his messaging and beliefs. He speaks of goals and aspirations and falls short of the often. He will cross some lines if he believes that it will advance one of his critical goals. One of his main goals seems to be to get the human race to a point where we can avoid our own extinction. While supporting Ukraine makes sense to him, there is a logical limit to most people. He is okay with spending $100M of his companies money to provide a communication system for Ukraine to fight a conventional war, but it stops short of a full scale nuclear exchange. Hence, his willingness to propose a plan that would let Russia keep some of its stolen land. Our thirst for heros and villains drives us to irrationality and is ultimately ripping our country apart In today's America, you are one or the other with no middle ground. Everyone is forming up into sides and someone like Musk is confounding...both teams want to own him but only when he is 100%. I think Trump was a little like this...non-ideological and yet very pragmatic. |
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