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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:36:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: When we have our Ukbros meetup at Azovstahl (my first location vote), we'll see a lot of people like this, all around.     |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:38:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
US leaders should start every single press conference with the following statements: Luhansk is Ukraine. Donetsk is Ukraine. Zaporozhia is Ukraine. Kherson is Ukraine. Crimea is Ukraine. Russia must return to the borders it guaranteed in treaties it signed with its neighbors. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:39:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flogger23m: Leopard 2A6? That is impressive. I thought it would be old 2A4s. The 2A6 has a longer gun. 2A6: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49178465741_8ed3f6fe06_b.jpg 2A5 with the shorter gun: https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/germany/main_battle_tank/leopard_2a5/Leopard_2A5_MBT_Main_Battle_Tank_Germany_925_001.jpg Norway wants to send some but they only have 2A4s that are upgraded. I think Ukraine will end up with a very mixed fleet. 2A4s, some 2A5s, and some 2A6s. Maybe Poland will send some 2PLs. The gun really isn’t that short - it’s the same as an Abrams M1A1 or A2. It looks short because of the add-on wedge armour kit on the turret front of the 2A5, before the gun was lengthened to 55 caliber on the 2A6/7. According to the tanker 4xGM300 quoted the other day, the BIG differences are between the 2A4 and 2A5. The 2A5 and up are what you want. 2A4 has a vastly less capable gun stabilization package, no thermals, and much weaker overall armour composites. Getting from a 2A4 up is a major tear down/rebuild. All others can upgrade incrementally. I do not get excited about donated 2A4s too much; they are the ones with lots of parts lying all over Syria (Al Bab). The 2A4PL is thorough tear-down/rebuild and should be considered a 2A5 analog effectively; it has been massively upgraded. These are things I learned from that thread 4x linked and I summarized + more reading on the 2A4PL, not personal knowledge. 2A4s for comparison without the applique armour on the turret face (digitally rendered). The Polish 2A4PL also has a front add-on armour kit, but it looks slightly different than the German one on the 2A5 so they are distinguishable. I doubt Ukraine will see them as Poland has only converted about 40 out of 140 over the last 11 years of the project and has 100 still to convert (didn’t really start converting until 2018-ish IIRC).  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:43:38 PM EDT
[#4]
I have learned more about the cost of aid and how it actually getting to Ukraine in the last 4 pages than all the combined news sources since this started.
I also remember a 60 minutes clip of turning those tanks/personnel carriers into reefs and the cost. This savings and expense of keeping up old stock piles needs to be reported on. It would change a lot of minds. Other than this thread, I figured a large majority was cash for Ukraine to purchase what they wanted with it! |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:50:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By reb0957: I have learned more about the cost of aid and how it actually getting to Ukraine in the last 4 pages than all the combined news sources since this started. I also remember a 60 minutes clip of turning those tanks/personnel carriers into reefs and the cost. This savings and expense of keeping up old stock piles needs to be reported on. It would change a lot of minds. Other than this thread, I figured a large majority was cash for Ukraine to purchase what they wanted with it! I didn’t understand it fully until people here explained it well back in the summer (and I was trying to find out). I’ve seen it explained adequately nowhere else. Getting clear analysis of the war, outside of this thread, is not possible IMO and I really appreciate that fact. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:52:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Interesting article on Russia-India relations, no paywall. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/India_JPG-2684043.jpg https://www.foreignaffairs.com/india/will-india-ditch-russia Frankly I don't blame India for taking advantage of the situation to their benefit so long as they aren’t burning bridges. Europe telling India not to buy energy from Russia, while themselves buying energy from Russia, was obviously hypocritical. However I agree that it is in India’s interests to move towards the west for one reason - China. In ten years Russia will be either a Chinese vassal (and thus potentially an enemy of India) or China will be biting off a chunk of Russia and its resources, and become stronger than ever. Maybe the situation is suboptimal for India, but sometimes you don’t get a choice. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:53:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Ugh - I was just in a GD thread about the German Leopard decision. It went about like you'd expect from a GD thread on Ukraine. Remind me more often: never get out of the boat.  But, I think it's good to post level-head rebuttals, and let them stand out in the tarded comments. The F Ukraine bois aren't changing their mind, but maybe a reasonable third party will consider your rebuttals when compared to some of the idiotic takes from the F Ukraine crowd. The reasonable third party people get turned off pretty quickly, when they are called Putin lovers for disagreeing with all the cash being sent over there. Just because we aren't fans of all the tax money the US is blowing over there, doesn't mean we want Russia to win. Some of the shit the Ukraine bois have said and done is flat out 'tarded. Especially, when it turns into purse swinging and name calling. I'll be called a Russian troll in 3, 2, 1.... In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 10:53:46 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: I expect different countries to be setting up repair facilities in Poland. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Originally Posted By Prime: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/LOGOs_JPG-2683861.jpg Months ago, Germany set up a repair depot to service Ukrainian PzH-2000 155mm mobile artillery it donated to Ukraine. I want German Leopards released to the UA army as much as anyone. Scholtz appears to be a commie-fuckwad. But let’s not forget the many good things Germany has done for Ukraine too. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:00:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grambosc: He would have done better to take some of the bastards with him on the way out instead of just hanging himself. Even if he just set their ammo dump on fire with a cigarette. Instead it's just another loss for no purpose, and the kadyrovite orcs who abused him get to laugh over his corpse.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grambosc: Originally Posted By Prime:
Reminder: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnHbwHwWAAEpfsf?format=jpg&name=900x900 He would have done better to take some of the bastards with him on the way out instead of just hanging himself. Even if he just set their ammo dump on fire with a cigarette. Instead it's just another loss for no purpose, and the kadyrovite orcs who abused him get to laugh over his corpse. You always get a vote. That vote may be costly, but you always get one. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:01:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Ugh - I was just in a GD thread about the German Leopard decision. It went about like you'd expect from a GD thread on Ukraine. Remind me more often: never get out of the boat. But, I think it's good to post level-head rebuttals, and let them stand out in the tarded comments. The F Ukraine bois aren't changing their mind, but maybe a reasonable third party will consider your rebuttals when compared to some of the idiotic takes from the F Ukraine crowd. The reasonable third party people get turned off pretty quickly, when they are called Putin lovers for disagreeing with all the cash being sent over there. Just because we aren't fans of all the tax money the US is blowing over there, doesn't mean we want Russia to win. Some of the shit the Ukraine bois have said and done is flat out 'tarded. Especially, when it turns into purse swinging and name calling. I'll be called a Russian troll in 3, 2, 1.... In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. My opinion is that the best way to prevent a broader European war that we'll undoubtedly be dragged into is to arm Ukraine to the teeth. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:03:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryAnyone else see what looked like a suicide around the 1:35 mark? |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:06:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Estonia plans to close the Gulf of Finland for russia, Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Reinsalu says.
If this goes down, which is a big IF.. This will be a RED LINE for RUS.. 20% of everything they export comes through the Gulf of Finland. This would economically destroy Western Russia. Cutting St. Petersburg off from the Baltic is a ballsy move. I would bet Estonia will cave to NATO/EU pressure unfortunately. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:07:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. Given how some of your posts could have been interpreted less than kindly, the video probably should have been captioned as blatantly pro-Russian POV. Nobody is objecting to seeing the Russian POV, however much the Tucker tards call this thread an echo chamber. Hey, see that? I used a pejorative, too.  Once upon a time, it was said that people should have thick skins in GD.
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:08:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: The way R0N was spinning it yesterday was this: it was a few sacrificial calfs, so the mountain of graft underneath would not be touched. E.g. - “It’s just smoke and mirrors and there’s lots more because, - ah, just trust me, because I know all about it.” + border wall. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By reb0957: 100% correct! They will probably spin it as Zelensky is firing people that cut in on his grift! Imagine if we would start doing that here???? We wouldn't have a government! The way R0N was spinning it yesterday was this: it was a few sacrificial calfs, so the mountain of graft underneath would not be touched. E.g. - “It’s just smoke and mirrors and there’s lots more because, - ah, just trust me, because I know all about it.” + border wall. I read that, but some still think that one’s background buys them a pass. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:13:34 PM EDT
[#16]
In this thread, we brag about how the aid to Ukraine is a great deal, and very inexpensive, while simultaneously stating that more and increasingly expensive aid to Ukraine is necessary.
All while calling anyone who thinks that it sucks that we have to pay to stop a tyrant (Putin) is a Putin puffer, along with anyone who dares point out any failings of the Ukrainians. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:16:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: In this thread, we brag about how the aid to Ukraine is a great deal, and very inexpensive, while simultaneously stating that more and increasingly expensive aid to Ukraine is necessary. All while calling anyone who thinks that it sucks that we have to pay to stop a tyrant (Putin) is a Putin puffer, along with anyone who dares point out any failings of the Ukrainians. What failings of the Ukrainians would those be? |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:18:55 PM EDT
[#18]
How long until we get to see a video of a DU sabot round ripping through T series tanks? Maybe we’ll even get to see a T-14 destroyed by one if Russia gets desperate enough to send them to the front.
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:20:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sq40]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jdmdavey: Estonia plans to close the Gulf of Finland for russia, Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Reinsalu says. If this goes down, which is a big IF.. This will be a RED LINE for RUS.. 20% of everything they export comes through the Gulf of Finland. This would economically destroy Western Russia. Cutting St. Petersburg off from the Baltic is a ballsy move. I would bet Estonia will cave to NATO/EU pressure unfortunately. Denmark and Sweden alone could close the Baltic completely couldn’t they? There are only two ways out, no? |
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USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:22:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Given how some of your posts could have been interpreted less than kindly, the video probably should have been captioned as blatantly pro-Russian POV. Nobody is objecting to seeing the Russian POV, however much the Tucker tards call this thread an echo chamber. Hey, see that? I used a pejorative, too. Once upon a time, it was said that people should have thick skins in GD.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By craig19: 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. Given how some of your posts could have been interpreted less than kindly, the video probably should have been captioned as blatantly pro-Russian POV. Nobody is objecting to seeing the Russian POV, however much the Tucker tards call this thread an echo chamber. Hey, see that? I used a pejorative, too. Once upon a time, it was said that people should have thick skins in GD.I think most posts in GD are less than kind. I agree about having thick skin, which is why I'm still here. This infighting is taking away from the point of this thread. So, I'll just say this, I'm sorry for my joke. I'm sorry for not explaining why I posted the Russian video. Let's get back to the war. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:24:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: The gun really isn’t that short - it’s the same as an Abrams M1A1 or A2. It looks short because of the add-on wedge armour kit on the turret front of the 2A5, before the gun was lengthened to 55 caliber on the 2A6/7. According to the tanker 4xGM300 quoted the other day, the BIG differences are between the 2A4 and 2A5. The 2A5 and up are what you want. 2A4 has a vastly less capable gun stabilization package, no thermals, and much weaker overall armour composites. Getting from a 2A4 up is a major tear down/rebuild. All others can upgrade incrementally. I do not get excited about donated 2A4s too much; they are the ones with lots of parts lying all over Syria (Al Bab). The 2A4PL is thorough tear-down/rebuild and should be considered a 2A5 analog effectively; it has been massively upgraded. These are things I learned from that thread 4x linked and I summarized + more reading on the 2A4PL, not personal knowledge. 2A4s for comparison without the applique armour on the turret face (digitally rendered). The Polish 2A4PL also has a front add-on armour kit, but it looks slightly different than the German one on the 2A5 so they are distinguishable. I doubt Ukraine will see them as Poland has only converted about 40 out of 140 over the last 11 years of the project and has 100 still to convert (didn’t really start converting until 2018-ish IIRC). https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/556465/B5CD0456-5C6D-469F-AE0F-7B4398D2DDA4_jpe-2684373.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By Flogger23m: Leopard 2A6? That is impressive. I thought it would be old 2A4s. The 2A6 has a longer gun. 2A6: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49178465741_8ed3f6fe06_b.jpg 2A5 with the shorter gun: https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/germany/main_battle_tank/leopard_2a5/Leopard_2A5_MBT_Main_Battle_Tank_Germany_925_001.jpg Norway wants to send some but they only have 2A4s that are upgraded. I think Ukraine will end up with a very mixed fleet. 2A4s, some 2A5s, and some 2A6s. Maybe Poland will send some 2PLs. The gun really isn’t that short - it’s the same as an Abrams M1A1 or A2. It looks short because of the add-on wedge armour kit on the turret front of the 2A5, before the gun was lengthened to 55 caliber on the 2A6/7. According to the tanker 4xGM300 quoted the other day, the BIG differences are between the 2A4 and 2A5. The 2A5 and up are what you want. 2A4 has a vastly less capable gun stabilization package, no thermals, and much weaker overall armour composites. Getting from a 2A4 up is a major tear down/rebuild. All others can upgrade incrementally. I do not get excited about donated 2A4s too much; they are the ones with lots of parts lying all over Syria (Al Bab). The 2A4PL is thorough tear-down/rebuild and should be considered a 2A5 analog effectively; it has been massively upgraded. These are things I learned from that thread 4x linked and I summarized + more reading on the 2A4PL, not personal knowledge. 2A4s for comparison without the applique armour on the turret face (digitally rendered). The Polish 2A4PL also has a front add-on armour kit, but it looks slightly different than the German one on the 2A5 so they are distinguishable. I doubt Ukraine will see them as Poland has only converted about 40 out of 140 over the last 11 years of the project and has 100 still to convert (didn’t really start converting until 2018-ish IIRC). https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/556465/B5CD0456-5C6D-469F-AE0F-7B4398D2DDA4_jpe-2684373.JPG There are lot of nice upgrade options for the 2A4, but I doubt anything substantial will be done. Norway wants to send some 2A4s and they are upgraded slightly. A fair amount of the 2A4s across Europe are upgraded. Nothing like the newest "Revolution" style kits, but they do have some upgraded things optics and the like. Depends on which vehicle from which country. Every version has some minor or major differences. Singapore has a nice upgrade kit called the SG, you can see how it compared to the regular 2A4.  Turkish NG:  But I assume most of the tanks going will be a few A6, maybe some A5, and a bunch of A4s. I wonder if we'll see them slap on some slat armor. Canada did that with the 2A6s they deployed to Afghanistan. 
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:29:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: In this thread, we brag about how the aid to Ukraine is a great deal, and very inexpensive, while simultaneously stating that more and increasingly expensive aid to Ukraine is necessary. All while calling anyone who thinks that it sucks that we have to pay to stop a tyrant (Putin) is a Putin puffer, along with anyone who dares point out any failings of the Ukrainians. Click |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:32:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Did you buy one of those tickets??  Did buy my blue and yellow mankini 
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:32:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: So many lives changed in these past 11 months. I am starting to see more people with crutches, canes, lost limbs. I really think of the kids that grow up in this mess. I'm sure many will be broken to one degree or another, but the vast majority will become resilient and resourceful adults. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:34:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Seems to me the Ukrainians would be better off with a bunch of those KIA tanks the Poles are buying to replace their Leopards, though delivery date is probably the more urgent problem for the Ukrainians, in which case, you pay market rate for what's available.
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ON, CAN
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:35:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: Schwarzenegger made a personal call for Russia to end the war, several months ago. What's there to apologize for? He's a leftist shit-bag and a hypocrite. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:36:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Capta]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: I can hardly believe we've gone from "WHAT GERMANY DOING?!" and speculating how the Ukrainians are going to do in the next phase of the war, to them getting cleared to receive several Brigade sets worth of equipment. Putin is going to be shitting kittens. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: Originally Posted By Jack67: Yes, that’s all in place/on the way. There was announcement of more Bradleys, Strykers, hummers, etc. to help round out western-type armoured brigades. A substantial amount of sp artillery is in place, etc. They can build it that way if they want; the pieces, training, etc. are in place or flowing. I can hardly believe we've gone from "WHAT GERMANY DOING?!" and speculating how the Ukrainians are going to do in the next phase of the war, to them getting cleared to receive several Brigade sets worth of equipment. Putin is going to be shitting kittens. We just saw their bet and raised. And we are still a long, LONG way from inflicting the pain we can inflict. The public reaction from Russian propagandists will probably be a curious mix of “it doesn't matter” and “we will kill the world with nuclear fire!” The question for Putin, or really the Russian power structure, is what now? Putin himself will never back down. He’ll destroy Russia and Ukraine both to stay in power with a chance of winning. But I think the writing is on the wall now. The west isn't going to back down, and the west dwarfs Russia’s qualitative and even quantitative production capacity. Is there anyone in Russia who can say “enough?” Now is the time. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:38:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Not sure if this has been posted:
Ukraine War: 'This is such a stupid tank': Commander's plea for modern tanks on Bakhmut frontline  Ukraine War: 'This is such a stupid tank': Commander's plea for modern tanks on Bakhmut frontline |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:38:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: trapsh00ter99]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: I read that, but some still think that one's background buys them a pass. I feel I was extra gracious with R0N because a lot of respected posters valued his input, but with some of his arguments that last 24-48 hrs, that's gone. On topic, the pictures of the Leopards on the last two pages, dang those are a beautiful piece of machinery. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:39:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast: What failings of the Ukrainians would those be? Is that a rhetorical question? There have been plenty discussed right here in this thread. Somone just posted a link to a bunch of officials who were sacked for corruption. Russia got away relatively unscathed during the Kharkiv AND Kherson advances. There are ongoing reports of terrible corrupt leadership at the front. There are scores of vids of Ukrainians being less than stellar soldiers. Again, I'm for Ukraine, and I hope they kick Russia completely off every inch of their territory, but it ain't all rainbows and unicorns out there, as you must believe if you need proof of their failings. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:40:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Well he didn’t do it publicly but I hope he spilled the beans to Zelensky exactly who and what sentiments are resulting in the slow rolling. It wouldn’t be right for him to do it publicly, I get it. He’s not the Supreme Court leaker type of person, which I can respect. ETA: I’d love for him, in the cone of silence, to explain what the restraints were that held him back from what he would have liked to have given. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Well he didn’t do it publicly but I hope he spilled the beans to Zelensky exactly who and what sentiments are resulting in the slow rolling. It wouldn’t be right for him to do it publicly, I get it. He’s not the Supreme Court leaker type of person, which I can respect. ETA: I’d love for him, in the cone of silence, to explain what the restraints were that held him back from what he would have liked to have given. I think (no backing facts, just my opinion) that to a large extent the factors are already known. You’d have to be at least somewhat candid to keep the Ukrainian political will solid and to allow them to plan ahead for how NATO was going to make their plays. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:46:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lycurgus]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Is that a rhetorical question? There have been plenty discussed right here in this thread. Somone just posted a link to a bunch of officials who were sacked for corruption. Russia got away relatively unscathed during the Kharkiv AND Kherson advances. There are ongoing reports of terrible corrupt leadership at the front. There are scores of vids of Ukrainians being less than stellar soldiers. Again, I'm for Ukraine, and I hope they kick Russia completely off every inch of their territory, but it ain't all rainbows and unicorns out there, as you must believe if you need proof of their failings. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast: What failings of the Ukrainians would those be? Is that a rhetorical question? There have been plenty discussed right here in this thread. Somone just posted a link to a bunch of officials who were sacked for corruption. Russia got away relatively unscathed during the Kharkiv AND Kherson advances. There are ongoing reports of terrible corrupt leadership at the front. There are scores of vids of Ukrainians being less than stellar soldiers. Again, I'm for Ukraine, and I hope they kick Russia completely off every inch of their territory, but it ain't all rainbows and unicorns out there, as you must believe if you need proof of their failings. All post-Soviet states have some manner of problems; some more and some less. You don't live through 45 - 70 years of cultural and social rot and disease brought about by Marxism/Communism and come out the other side without serious issues. If the CCP ever fell in mainland China and a "democratic" government would arise, China would still deal with serious social and cultural issues for a long time as a result of the CCP rule |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:47:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jdmdavey]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Denmark and Sweden alone could close the Baltic completely couldn’t they? There are only two ways out, no? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By jdmdavey: Estonia plans to close the Gulf of Finland for russia, Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Reinsalu says. If this goes down, which is a big IF.. This will be a RED LINE for RUS.. 20% of everything they export comes through the Gulf of Finland. This would economically destroy Western Russia. Cutting St. Petersburg off from the Baltic is a ballsy move. I would bet Estonia will cave to NATO/EU pressure unfortunately. Denmark and Sweden alone could close the Baltic completely couldn’t they? There are only two ways out, no? Yes. The Denmark straight is only 4KM wide. Once this was announced RUS expelled the Estonian Ambassador, by Feb 7 at least. Estonia alone has a pitiful Navy. But they are a NATO ally. What this does is gives them the legal authority to inspect and thus interdict any RUS craft passing through their waters. If a RUS vessel decides to ignore the inspection, then EST will have the right to deny passage to the vessel. At that point we will see who will blink. Access to the Baltic is key, without it RUS would be in deep trouble, I doubt they would stand for it. This could possibly be one of those small moments in history that we look back on years from now and realize that it was a tipping point. Russia will feel completely trapped, without access to the Baltic or further more the Atlantic, they will lash out if this goes ahead. This could be our Archduke Ferdinand moment or it could be a total bluff.. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:51:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ServusVeritatis]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: In this thread, we brag about how the aid to Ukraine is a great deal, and very inexpensive, while simultaneously stating that more and increasingly expensive aid to Ukraine is necessary. All while calling anyone who thinks that it sucks that we have to pay to stop a tyrant (Putin) is a Putin puffer, along with anyone who dares point out any failings of the Ukrainians. Youre mischaracterizing a lot in that post. Whether accidentally or on purpose I’m not sure. You can brag it’s a great deal and still want to send much more to them and it still be a good deal. You want the job to be done quickly, not long and drawn out, The second part “think it sucks we have to pay…” Most of the people here regurgitate 100% Russian sourced false info, not some 3rd party unbiased measured view. They actively call Ukraine the bad guy. I also think it sucks we have to spend to stop them. The problem is those who attack the US and west for having the gall to stand up to Russia killing its neighbor. It unfortunately has everything to do with who is on the White House right now and all sound judgement has been thrown out the window to oppose anything the govt does when he’s there. Whether it’s him or not making critical decisions (hope to God it isn’t). Trump would be helping kill Russians as well….most just don’t want to believe it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2023 11:58:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: In this thread, we brag about how the aid to Ukraine is a great deal, and very inexpensive, while simultaneously stating that more and increasingly expensive aid to Ukraine is necessary. All while calling anyone who thinks that it sucks that we have to pay to stop a tyrant (Putin) is a Putin puffer, along with anyone who dares point out any failings of the Ukrainians. Another characteristic of the chronic 10%- talking about the talk instead of talking about the war. You're not Seinfeld, and your observations aren’t funny. Bring data next time. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:02:16 AM EDT
[#36]
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VA, USA
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:03:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Denmark and Sweden alone could close the Baltic completely couldn’t they? There are only two ways out, no? Not between St. Petersburg and Kaliningrad. They are not going to close the Baltic. A blockade is an act of war. The thing I saw suggested Estonia would only stop ships for search to enforce sanctions. This would not matter unless Finland also enforced a zone on their side of the Gulf of Finland. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:06:03 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Earlier I posted a tweet and a picture showing a the wounded face of a guy who was sitting at the kitchen table with his wife when a russian missile struck their apartment complex. Just found another tweet that includes a picture of his wife.
https://i.postimg.cc/Z5cYr9xd/Fn-PLvdj-WQAAYm-Mb.jpg Putin needs to burn in hell. I'm sure the gauze is covering the most serious wound on her face. I don't want to seem ghoulish, but I think the gauze should have been removed to show the world how evil Putin and his government are. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:06:27 AM EDT
[#39]
Silver medalist killed in/near Bakhmut
 https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-ato/3658687-pid-bahmutom-zaginuv-sribnij-prizer-cempionatu-ukraini-z-figurnogo-katanna-dmitro-sarpar.html |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:07:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Yes you are correct on Finland having to declare their half as well...but it will be interesting to see if any RUS ships get flagged down, how they respond.
It seems like an Estonian gesture more than anything, but could turn out to be more if Finland goes along. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:08:10 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Imagine this hunting you. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnRDM04aYAEGMeY?format=jpg&name=900x900 Well, at least you'd die laughing! 
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:09:19 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I didn’t understand it fully until people here explained it well back in the summer (and I was trying to find out). I’ve seen it explained adequately nowhere else. Getting clear analysis of the war, outside of this thread, is not possible IMO and I really appreciate that fact. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By reb0957: I have learned more about the cost of aid and how it actually getting to Ukraine in the last 4 pages than all the combined news sources since this started. I also remember a 60 minutes clip of turning those tanks/personnel carriers into reefs and the cost. This savings and expense of keeping up old stock piles needs to be reported on. It would change a lot of minds. Other than this thread, I figured a large majority was cash for Ukraine to purchase what they wanted with it! I didn’t understand it fully until people here explained it well back in the summer (and I was trying to find out). I’ve seen it explained adequately nowhere else. Getting clear analysis of the war, outside of this thread, is not possible IMO and I really appreciate that fact. Your right, this thread has informed me also better than any other source, the combination of contributors from all over the world and here have brought together for me a better understanding of this war and the aid that Ukraine receives. This thread should be turned into a digital book for future generations. Lol |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:12:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#43]
Russian soldier shows off “worthless” first aid kit.
It’s not worthless, there’s a bandage. https://www.tiktok.com/@viktor_z11/video/7192014173553954054 Listened to Rogan go on about TikTok again today, so here’s a pic. 
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:12:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Originally Posted By lycurgus: Not sure if this has been posted: Ukraine War: 'This is such a stupid tank': Commander's plea for modern tanks on Bakhmut frontline  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXT3GEFYxSIThat’s good, solid journalism from Sky News. Have always respected them and they are one of the still useful global news agencies. I trust Al Jazeera more than I trust most all of ours. If we had reputable news agencies showing facts to a reasonable percentage of the population, it would decrease confusion and disinformation so very, very much. Of course, top that with a president who can speak plainly to the nation about why we need to do things, rally and lead - that would be the icing. Originally Posted By Eat_Beef: Is that a rhetorical question? There have been plenty discussed right here in this thread. Somone just posted a link to a bunch of officials who were sacked for corruption. Russia got away relatively unscathed during the Kharkiv AND Kherson advances. There are ongoing reports of terrible corrupt leadership at the front. There are scores of vids of Ukrainians being less than stellar soldiers. Again, I'm for Ukraine, and I hope they kick Russia completely off every inch of their territory, but it ain't all rainbows and unicorns out there, as you must believe if you need proof of their failings. Those are all good points. The failure to exploit after Kharkiv was disheartening to me. Whether a command or capability failure (likely the latter), it still was regrettable. Objectively, it took nine months of the most ferocious national effort any country has mustered in such a short time since - 1942(?) - to get to the end of 2022. It’s going to take some building time to create the army that can finish the war. Weeding corruption civilian and military, building new units with new capabilities, doing all this with very fractured coalition partners - difficult and time consuming. The trends are all in the right direction and the news on replacing people is good IMO; let’s see military changes, too. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:13:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Ugh - I was just in a GD thread about the German Leopard decision. It went about like you'd expect from a GD thread on Ukraine. Remind me more often: never get out of the boat. But, I think it's good to post level-head rebuttals, and let them stand out in the tarded comments. The F Ukraine bois aren't changing their mind, but maybe a reasonable third party will consider your rebuttals when compared to some of the idiotic takes from the F Ukraine crowd. The reasonable third party people get turned off pretty quickly, when they are called Putin lovers for disagreeing with all the cash being sent over there. Just because we aren't fans of all the tax money the US is blowing over there, doesn't mean we want Russia to win. Some of the shit the Ukraine bois have said and done is flat out 'tarded. Especially, when it turns into purse swinging and name calling. I'll be called a Russian troll in 3, 2, 1.... In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. For the future of this country and the country of our allies we better see it through. If any western country ceases to provide aid to Ukraine and Russia wins this, will strengthen Russia to levels we do not want our future generations to see or deal with. If they win, due to the west not helping stop Russia then we might as well lay out the red carpet for Russia to take back all of eastern Europe and let them rebuild the Soviet empire. Then you know what happens after that. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:13:35 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Ugh - I was just in a GD thread about the German Leopard decision. It went about like you'd expect from a GD thread on Ukraine. Remind me more often: never get out of the boat. But, I think it's good to post level-head rebuttals, and let them stand out in the tarded comments. The F Ukraine bois aren't changing their mind, but maybe a reasonable third party will consider your rebuttals when compared to some of the idiotic takes from the F Ukraine crowd. The reasonable third party people get turned off pretty quickly, when they are called Putin lovers for disagreeing with all the cash being sent over there. Just because we aren't fans of all the tax money the US is blowing over there, doesn't mean we want Russia to win. Some of the shit the Ukraine bois have said and done is flat out 'tarded. Especially, when it turns into purse swinging and name calling. I'll be called a Russian troll in 3, 2, 1.... In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. *Added to thee excel log of quality posts* After folks’ responses to the idea and wondering how/if I could handle the 3k+ previous pages… a log for referencing and retrieving posts HAS to start somewhere and really should be done to preserve everyone’s efforts (even Ivan Ivanovich’s minimum Rubel shift-posting). Can’t do it without everyone’s help though! Please treat my inbox as your bookmark method for posts/convos you’d like entered. IM 24/7. I’ll get to them. Include the page number and what you want to be noted. I’ll make an entry with the page #, time stamp for the post or page, and description of what’s of note (probably copy the whole post too). I won’t record who requests what and will log ANYTHING. One-liners, memes, wwii anecdotes…It doesn’t matter-it’s just another row entry. Wish there were a unique identifier for each post. Oh well. If anyone wants to help build this database, we’d be a lot more effective and I’d REALLY appreciate a teammate. Could use Dropbox/google drive/proton drive… Case of pmag bets will be logged separately and notarized, for use in Arfcom small claims court.  |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:16:00 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: In this thread, we brag about how the aid to Ukraine is a great deal, and very inexpensive, while simultaneously stating that more and increasingly expensive aid to Ukraine is necessary. All while calling anyone who thinks that it sucks that we have to pay to stop a tyrant (Putin) is a Putin puffer, along with anyone who dares point out any failings of the Ukrainians. Thank you for your meaningful contribution. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:22:20 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: India and China HATE each other. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By johnh57: Hmm, I thought Russia, China, and India were combining as trade partners to knock off the dollar as the global trading currency. India and China HATE each other. I think they did a little shooting at each other this past week. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:26:03 AM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 1/25/2023 12:28:18 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By craig19: Originally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Ugh - I was just in a GD thread about the German Leopard decision. It went about like you'd expect from a GD thread on Ukraine. Remind me more often: never get out of the boat. But, I think it's good to post level-head rebuttals, and let them stand out in the tarded comments. The F Ukraine bois aren't changing their mind, but maybe a reasonable third party will consider your rebuttals when compared to some of the idiotic takes from the F Ukraine crowd. The reasonable third party people get turned off pretty quickly, when they are called Putin lovers for disagreeing with all the cash being sent over there. Just because we aren't fans of all the tax money the US is blowing over there, doesn't mean we want Russia to win. Some of the shit the Ukraine bois have said and done is flat out 'tarded. Especially, when it turns into purse swinging and name calling. I'll be called a Russian troll in 3, 2, 1.... In one sentence you say that “Ukraine bois are saying and doing flat out retarded stuff” And in another you accuse them (Ukraine bois) of “purse swinging and name-calling.” Doesn’t this seem inconsistent? First, Your posting history on this thread started with your totally un-pertinent comment regarding someone’s M113 model. When someone asked what the bag on the glacis was, you answered “Cash.” That was not a discussion, that was a troll. Second, as with every poster who regurgitates the “pallets of cash/10% for the big guy/Ukraine is corrupt” talking points, you have offered zero specifics. You reference cash being handed over (illicitly). OK, back it up. Let’s see your evidence. Third, it can be very easily shown, and has been shown hundreds of times on this thread, that military and financial aide to Ukraine is minuscule compared to our own domestic and entirely self-inflicted expenditures. Supporting Ukraine has effectively ZERO to do with our national debt, inflation, the dollar, solvency of social security, or anything else that is being attributed to it by persons such as yourself. Fourth, (which I will mention for completeness) many such individuals profess an amazing, new-found spirit of isolationism. After 20 years of non-stop foreign wars (with questionable justification) and throwing trillions of dollars down the ME shithole for people who didn’t care, suddenly the hard right is concerned about the deficit and isolationism? Bullshit. You have previously posted a communist propaganda video. Not a “this is the perspective of the average Russian fighting, what he experiences and what he is being told. An actual, explicit communist propaganda video. Are you, personally, an American communist? Its OK if you are, this is still a free country where you have the right to do that. But I think it’s a fair question to ask. For my part, I’ve been a registered Republican my whole life, although since Bush I’ve leaned more libertarian. 1. I made a joke, it was joke. I'm sorry you got so twisted out of shape over it. 2. I found the video I posted interesting, because it showed what the other side is thinking and how they are spinning things. I thought it was relative and wanted to contribute something to this discussion. Again, sorry you got twisted out of shape over it. No, I'm not a commie. I am an Iraq Vet. I wasted a year of my life over there for nothing. Which is why I am reluctant for the US to get too involved in another war, that we probably won't see through and waste a bunch of lives in the process. I’m not “twisted out of shape.” This is minor. People can disagree and be professional about it. Again, communist propaganda video. Maybe vet your sources a bit, or present them as such. For example, I do a lot of news story aggregating for the thread. If I run across a story which IMO is unverifiable on the face of it, I usually state “per Ukrainian source.” In case you think I’m being too harsh, I’ll rehash some stuff for you at the risk of repeating myself to the regulars. I myself have been where (IMO) you are. I started out all for the GWOT until (eventually) I started to see that our rhetoric wasn’t matching our actions. That caused me to swallow a huge red pill, and I allowed myself to get suckered in by what I now know to be a Russian propaganda mouthpiece - Zerohedge, and a couple of others like RT. From about 2010 to 2015 I drank the Zerohedge coolaid and bought (to a large degree) all the Russian propaganda about the 2014 invasion. I am accountable for that. Ultimately I shook myself loose because I started examining ZH’s editorial slant and their internal inconsistency a LOT more closely, and realized it was a disinfo op. Early in this thread, several posters you’d recognize publicly owned up to having been duped by Putin. Nothing is so hard as admitting error. So when you roll in with Russian talking points about “teh cash!” I get it. That was me 8 years ago about “Russia’s sphere of influence”/Putin is the friend of Christian conservatives/+ other hogwash. |
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