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Posted: 12/6/2023 10:53:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: FPV attacks on Russian forces.
Haven’t watched all of this, but 47th put this out this morning, may explain all the clips from them we’re seeing.  ??????? ????????: ???????? ??? Surroundings of Avdiyivka, Donetsk region, Sela Steppove district The result of another Russian assault Video from soldiers of the 47th OMBr "Magura"
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Posted: 12/6/2023 10:57:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Please explain. CMOS Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Originally Posted By ServusVeritatis: If it was a Patriot shoot down there is no crew. The Patriot attacks the cockpit. Please explain. CMOS I can explain, the Patriot missiles are steered to an aircraft target in such a way that they attempt to hit the cockpit area of the plane, rather than the rear, or center sections. If the Patriot round connects well enough, it will shear the cockpit section off from the rest of the aircraft. The PAC-3 round has some very high resoluton fidelity because of it's role as anti-missile defense, so it's very good at biasing toward a certain part of an aircraft for best effect. You end up with a multi million dollar aircraft that will not make it back for repairs, and there will be a dead pilot that cannot go get another aircraft to fly missions. This site has ads, but some insight on what happened to an F-18 that was shot down by the system. https://web.archive.org/web/20231026023919/https://theaviationgeekclub.com/blue-blue-story-u-s-navy-f-18-shot-u-s-army-pac-3-patriot-missile-battery-oif/amp/ Habitual Linecrosser that Patriot instructor mentions this as well in his funny comments here: [youtube]shorts/eJNw1BN5kcI[/youtube] Older system, but same idea, watch the target drone getting hit.  Lockheed's $3.4B Missile System in Action |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 10:57:53 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: I didn't look closely before. Those boxes are exactly the right size for bodies.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By SoCalExile: Looks like the Russians have figured out the wunderwaffen called pallets: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAgMmAXWgAAJSH_?format=jpg&name=900x900
I think those are 200s - zinc coffins in their outer wooden case. I didn't look closely before. Those boxes are exactly the right size for bodies. From July 2022- 
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:03:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 20 minutes ago.
Donetsk Beautiful
Consequences of the shelling of the Voroshilovsky district of Donetsk   https://t.me/itsdonetsk/119712 Donetsk now, everything is in smoke According to preliminary data, an oil depot is on fire in the Budennovsky district.
#AGS_Summary 17.32 - Air defense is operating in the skies of the DPR again. Be careful. https://t.me/Ags_Donbass/228318 #AGS_Summary 17.34 - Kalininsky, Voroshilovsky, Budennovsky and Proletarsky districts of Donetsk are still at risk. Arrivals are reported again. We are updating the information. https://t.me/Ags_Donbass/228319 |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:08:39 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: The Russians haven't quite figured that out just yet. https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/06/02/Lethality-enhancer-PAC-3-patriot.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1200 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Why would they bother looking? No one ever survives PATRIOT hitting their aircraft. Never. The Russians haven't quite figured that out just yet. https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/06/02/Lethality-enhancer-PAC-3-patriot.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1200  
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:10:42 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:13:58 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Why would they bother looking? No one ever survives PATRIOT hitting their aircraft. Never. The Russians haven't quite figured that out just yet. https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2023/06/02/Lethality-enhancer-PAC-3-patriot.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1200 https://i.imgur.com/s2RWKSi.jpg lol, but seriously, from the Russian reports this morning that both Su-24 crew are dead make me pretty sure a Patriot class system is in the area. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:14:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: GAW DANG. That's brutal. Happened in Stepove. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: WOW! GAW DANG. That's brutal. Happened in Stepove. So, Avdiivka area? I was wondering where. The view of the cover of the truck just completely full of holes... damn!!! |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:15:56 AM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:18:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#10]
41 fortifications and 26 firing positions ▪️ 2 ammunition depots |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:22:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_5074-3049110.jpg
I don’t know if the F-16s Europe is sending are quite a peer to Russian fighter radar and missile range, but Ukrainian pilots will likely find ways to knock some down. They will definitely clear out the Ka-52 and Mi-28 helos! I’m wondering if Ukraine can “Westernize” a sector (100 miles?) rather than wait for enough for the entire line. Dig defensive trenches etc in other sectors to allow relocation of resources to the target sector. Use a layered AD starting with a Patriot umbrella, NASAMS, and down to numerous MANPADs. Concentrate EW, armor, HIMARS, artillery. All the best. Then have air cover from F16 and whatever else they can throw in. It would have to be able to suppress and wipe out Russian artillery and Lancet, FPV and Stugna so that engineers have the weeks needed to clear paths through minefields. This would be risky for the other sectors and a powerful reserve force would be needed to plug any assault breeches. It would be difficult without a quantity of long range fires but perhaps when the GLSDB is finally sent? And it wouldn’t make sense unless a strategic objective could be reached and held. Objective, Offensive, Mass. You have the last two figured out, and I think you're really on to something. But, what objective? I say, liberate Crimea. We know they can (probably) destroy the Kerch bridge without too much difficulty IF they commit to it in tandem with a mass assault down into the peninsula. An alliance with a seafaring power (::cough:: US ::cough::) to fight off Russian Naval and air assets transiting the sea would be a huge benefit in that kind of campaign. Suffice to say, I would love to see the complete and successful liberation of Crimea as part of a spring 2024 offensive. It could very well break the back of Russia's forces and will to prolong the war. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:22:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Get Ukraine the second system or get their system back? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By 4xGM300m: I wonder if Germany will get back the second system in Spring 2024.  Get Ukraine the second system or get their system back? As far as I understand the first system is now property of Ukraine (including the additional launchers and radars delivered in Summer), but the second system is only borrowed for the Winter attacks on infrastructure. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:22:40 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryYou needed this system in 2021, not 2023. How did this happen |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:28:32 AM EDT
[#14]
Letter to Mrs. Strelkov
“On Friday evening (according to tradition) I received letters and reports from you. Sorry for answering in pencil - I haven’t been able to get either warm boots or 2 ballpoint pens from the warehouse for over a week now. I use too much ink to write and all my other pens have run out (and even the ones I borrowed from the investigator and the lawyer have run out)… ... For now I say goodbye, (pencil ends), kiss. 24.11.23." Today it is -15 degrees outside, Igor goes for a walk every day in autumn clothes according to the schedule. Two months ago, he wrote an application for warm clothes, but the pre-trial detention center employees are in no hurry to respond, although they are obliged to do this within a reasonable time. It is unknown when they will be issued. https://t.me/i_strelkov_2023/558 |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:29:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#15]
This is why you have to run these outside of the range of helicopters by day, and move them in at night. Large wakes are easily visible by day. I'm not sure by the end of the video that they actually have hit the target.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:31:39 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:34:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#17]
They get the mice, but the idiots finish them off completely.
Nowadays, in the trenches and dugouts, talk about “biological sabotage” with mice, or at least the “conscious inaction” of those who were supposed to poison mice in the fields, has become popular. I don’t believe in the first at all, and the second - I don’t believe in “consciousness.” But I believe in mice - everything goes disastrously here with them. Corroded materiel and personal belongings of fighters are the beginning of trouble. Someone ends up in the hospital because of mouse bites - and this is no time for jokes, given the whole bouquet of surprises from the bites of these creatures. And then come the idiots. And I'm afraid of them myself. Taking a soldier's peacoat into which mice have crawled - and "shooting" him with an anti-drone gun at point-blank range right in the dugout - completed (-1 phone and -1 working laptop as a bonus) Get rat poison and scatter it everywhere, including a food warehouse, then get a broken jaw after talking with annoyed officers - completed Spraying a dugout with dichlorvos without calculating the consequences - completed Throw the bag with the collected exterminated rodents behind the potbelly stove (you should brag to others), change your position yourself and forget about the bag - done (they stink worse than a corpse) Not checking the supplies one more time (and here every extra one is not superfluous, but a spare one), losing as much mice in a day as we lose from shelling - accomplished Telling soldiers' tales about the terrible biological consequences of bites from special CIA mice does not count; soldiers' tales are eternal and cannot be punished Order “powerful mice repellents” to volunteers, get 10 mousetraps on 2.5 km of systems, several injured and one broken finger among the l/s arguing that the mousetrap “just hurts, but won’t break anything / will cut off a finger for the hell of it” " - done And this is just a side issue that distracts from the actual fighting. And nothing more. One of the definite advantages is that you can feel the replenishment of your l/s for the first time in a long time. We have reached the stage of dominance of manpower, now may God grant us the strength, intelligence and ability to manage this wisely. https://t.me/shouvalov/164 |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:36:13 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/234577/plate_JPG-3051054.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/234577/plate1_JPG-3051055.JPG These dudes came from Siberia to die from a tungsten hail. Nice catch. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:37:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Peskov: The Kremlin is ready for negotiations with Ukraine “Vladimir Putin has repeatedly said that the main thing for us is to achieve our goals. And, of course, we would prefer to do this primarily through political and diplomatic means,” explained the press secretary of the President of the Russian Federation on the RTVI television channel. At the same time, he recalled that Kiev recognized the fact that “they themselves abandoned the negotiations at the behest of Great Britain.” Peskov did not say anything new; Putin announced his readiness for negotiations at the recent G20 online summit. ZHIVOVZ https://t.me/zhivoff/11948 Does Peskov take questions from reporters? I'd like to see video of someone asking him if Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Because 'negotiation' means two sovereign parties, and the Moscow establishment consistently says Ukraine is not sovereign and there is nobody in Kyiv to negotiate with, because Zelensky is completely illegitimate. Before even entertaining "negotiation," Moscow has to say that Zelensky's government is the sovereign authority over the independent nation of Ukraine. That's a big hurdle, even before we get to my 10-point peace plan.  Putin does a big annual press conference in December, scheduled for 12/14. There is always a big audience, and he takes question. I would love to see some foreign press officer pose these questions: will you affirm that Ukraine is a sovereign nation and any negotiation would have to be with the popularly elected president Zelensky? We've seen their talking heads and government officials say that the only negotiations possible are with US & Western leaders, because Ukraine is not an independent nation. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:48:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: Russia … go home Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: Originally Posted By SoCalExile:
Russia … go home As a kid that grew up during the Vietnam War reading about our Airmen and Aviators shot down by Russian made, supplied and manned missile systems this is very satisfying. FUCK Russia & Russians! I only wish I could hate them more. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:49:52 AM EDT
[#21]
 
  
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:55:15 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Please explain. CMOS Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Originally Posted By ServusVeritatis: If it was a Patriot shoot down there is no crew. The Patriot attacks the cockpit. Please explain. CMOS Habitual Line Crosser on YouTube had an explanation for this. The Patriot missile attacks on a bias toward the cockpit of the airplane it’s targeting. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:56:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#23]
Holy cannoli
Avdiyiv direction, Stepove village district, Donetsk region The FPV drone of the 47th brigade hits the TM-62, which was spotted by the operator on board the Russian BTR-82A
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Posted: 12/6/2023 11:58:45 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: They get the mice, but the idiots finish them off completely. Nowadays, in the trenches and dugouts, talk about “biological sabotage” with mice, or at least the “conscious inaction” of those who were supposed to poison mice in the fields, has become popular. I don’t believe in the first at all, and the second - I don’t believe in “consciousness.” But I believe in mice - everything goes disastrously here with them. Corroded materiel and personal belongings of fighters are the beginning of trouble. Someone ends up in the hospital because of mouse bites - and this is no time for jokes, given the whole bouquet of surprises from the bites of these creatures. And then come the idiots. And I'm afraid of them myself. Taking a soldier's peacoat into which mice have crawled - and "shooting" him with an anti-drone gun at point-blank range right in the dugout - completed (-1 phone and -1 working laptop as a bonus) Get rat poison and scatter it everywhere, including a food warehouse, then get a broken jaw after talking with annoyed officers - completed Spraying a dugout with dichlorvos without calculating the consequences - completed Throw the bag with the collected exterminated rodents behind the potbelly stove (you should brag to others), change your position yourself and forget about the bag - done (they stink worse than a corpse) Not checking the supplies one more time (and here every extra one is not superfluous, but a spare one), losing as much mice in a day as we lose from shelling - accomplished Telling soldiers' tales about the terrible biological consequences of bites from special CIA mice does not count; soldiers' tales are eternal and cannot be punished Order “powerful mice repellents” to volunteers, get 10 mousetraps on 2.5 km of systems, several injured and one broken finger among the l/s arguing that the mousetrap “just hurts, but won’t break anything / will cut off a finger for the hell of it” " - done And this is just a side issue that distracts from the actual fighting. And nothing more. One of the definite advantages is that you can feel the replenishment of your l/s for the first time in a long time. We have reached the stage of dominance of manpower, now may God grant us the strength, intelligence and ability to manage this wisely. https://t.me/shouvalov/164 Nothing quite like microwaving yourself to get rid of mice from your clothing while you are wearing it.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:01:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#25]
Close drone drops nsfw.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:05:09 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:06:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Regarding the captured Bradley ODS captured the other day. I like the overlay panel in the Ukrainian language over the English.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:11:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: BIG NUMBERS ALL AROUND !!! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_5088-3050913.jpg I'm largely ignorant about the sizes of combat groups but wouldn't these numbers be like the equivalent of a really big combat group being wiped out of existence? Just schwacking that may logistics vehicles is a lot of convoys of food, fuel, ammo, troops, etc. being taken off the board. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:11:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqKc68aEAA_XUl?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqjecWagAAfVlx?format=jpg&name=small If you want to survive a PATRIOT hit, you have to bail out long before the missile arrives. Sadly, (or happily, depending...) if that was a PAC-2 variant, that crew was likely widely dispersed fish food diced into convenient bite-sized chunks before the debris ever hit the water.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:20:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: The Will Russian oil price cap has largely failed, new report finds An analysis shared with POLITICO reveals that sanctions cheats, gaping loopholes and widespread circumvention mean oil revenues are still filling Moscow’s war chest. https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-oil-price-cap-ukraine-war-centre-research-energy-clean-air/ It’s not that the price limit has had no effect. Over the last year, the scheme has cost the Kremlin €34 billion in export revenues, the equivalent of around two months of earnings this year, according to the new analysis from the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA) think tank shared with POLITICO. But that's far less than those who designed the rules had hoped; moreover, the impact was felt most intensely in the first half of 2023 before beginning to fade. Russian oil now consistently sells for more than the $60 limit. "The impact of the price cap has been limited due to inadequate monitoring and enforcement," said Isaac Levi, who leads CREA's work on Europe and Russia, with Western nations failing to crack down on sanctions loopholes. The shortfall is partly due to traders simply ignoring the price ceiling, the report states, and Russian oil is selling for roughly $70 a barrel. Around 48 percent of Russian oil cargoes were carried on tankers owned or insured in G7 and EU countries, the researchers found; in theory, the price cap should apply to these vessels, which comprise the vast majority of the global fleet — but in practice, few operators have been targeted. A “refining loophole” has also undermined Western efforts. Countries like India are buying huge volumes of Russian crude on the cheap, processing it and then selling it to anyone who wants it, without restrictions. That means European consumers could unknowingly be using petrol, diesel and jet fuel produced from Russian crude, bankrolling Moscow's armed forces at the same time. Only a handful of individuals have been charged by Western governments for failing to adhere to the rules, and investigations into alleged wrongdoing are rare. Meanwhile, Russia has openly flouted the ban, while a shadow fleet of aging tankers contrives to obscure the true origin of its supplies. Changing the rules to ban these practices, and ensuring that sanctions violations draw consequences, would make it harder for the Kremlin to pay for the weapons and military salaries that sustain the conflict in Ukraine, the report states. "The sanctions have not reduced the Kremlin’s resolve for war." "At current prices, and even if Russia earns these $60 dollars in the price cap … this will not affect revenue enough to force any change of strategy or to limit Russia's resources enough to make a difference on the battlefield," he said. Enforcement of the sanctions needs to happen along with tightening the screws some more. ChinaIsAsshoe may end up being the one that drives Russian revenue into the toilet by demanding bigger and bigger discounts. India is probably thinking the same way. Neither of them care one iota about Russia's economic woes, they just want cheap oil. |
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WLF
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:22:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Shoot the SAR aircraft down too. Make it hurt  I like the way you think! "Hell Yea Brother - Office Space Neighbor meme.jpg!!!!" |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:24:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Looked to me like the 2nd FPV drone had already been dispatched and found the target had already been kaboomed. And, why was that thing all by itself out in the open? |
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WLF
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:29:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: As a kid that grew up during the Vietnam War reading about our Airmen and Aviators shot down by Russian made, supplied and manned missile systems this is very satisfying. FUCK Russia & Russians! I only wish I could hate them more. Don't for get them being responsible for the deaths of American soldiers in Korea too. I wish the Putin puffers would get this into their head that Russia is the enemy, responsible for killing Americans since the 1950's. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:30:09 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: As a kid that grew up during the Vietnam War reading about our Airmen and Aviators shot down by Russian made, supplied and manned missile systems this is very satisfying. FUCK Russia & Russians! I only wish I could hate them more. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: Originally Posted By thehun06: Originally Posted By SoCalExile:
Russia … go home As a kid that grew up during the Vietnam War reading about our Airmen and Aviators shot down by Russian made, supplied and manned missile systems this is very satisfying. FUCK Russia & Russians! I only wish I could hate them more. Sadly, I've read reports that it wasn't all Russian There was East Germans, Czechs, Poles, and many other Warsaw Pact forces that went to 'Nam and using those SAM systems and maintaining them. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:31:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryHoly shit. There is another video above that one. "Where the fuck are my legs!" That was not pretty 
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:32:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Not the best written article, but some insights on how bad Russian air defense systems are, from Russian source that tested the units against drones. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/12/06/russian-report-explains-why-air-defenses-cannot-shoot-down-drones/?sh=6516ae237a50 Thankfully, we aren't in the same boat as the Russians.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqs1FxWwAEi7VY?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqs2OWWUAAazlF?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqs4BhXwAAQzpn?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqtJwGWwAAWtAX?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAq2RhRXsAAyc_K?format=jpg&name=large Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Not the best written article, but some insights on how bad Russian air defense systems are, from Russian source that tested the units against drones. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/12/06/russian-report-explains-why-air-defenses-cannot-shoot-down-drones/?sh=6516ae237a50 “The results of field tests showed that the target detection radar of the Tor air defense system provides detection of small UAVs at ranges of only 3-4 km,” writes Makarenko. This explains why drones are able to get so close and take video of these systems: the Russians are unable to spot a drone unless it is practically on top of them. When the drones are spotted, Makarenko says Tor has trouble shooting them down. “The practical experience of experimental firing at small targets [with Tor] … indicates the low efficiency of their destruction. The main reasons for this are the imperfection of the SAM warhead detonation control system, as well as large errors in target tracking and SAM guidance on small-sized UAVs.“ This has been borne out in Ukraine, for example by this video of a Tor missile hurtling past a Ukrainian quadcopter without exploding. This is exactly what Makarenko means by a failure of detonation control. The Pantsir has a similar problem. “The results of field tests of the Pantsir-S1 air defense missile systems show that firing missile weapons at small-sized UAVs is practically impossible.” (My emphasis) Makaranko says that the detection range is close to the minimum range for the missiles: by the time Pantsir detects a drone, it is already too close to hir. Exactly the same applies to the Tunguska. “The results of assessing the possibility of firing the Tunguska anti-aircraft missile system at a mini-UAV show that firing missiles at this type of target is practically impossible,” (my emphasis) says Makarenko. Both Pantsir and Tunguska have backups though, in the form of twin rapid-fire cannon which ought to be able to annihilate small drones with ease. If only they could hit them. “The use of cannon armament of these 3PKs against small-sized UAVs is fundamentally possible, but due to the small size of the UAVs, the probability of their defeat is low,” says Makarenko. In a test in 2020, a battery of four Pantsirs opened fire on a slow-moving drone, but failed to destroy it with multiple salvoes. Again, Tunguska has the same problem. It needs a ton of ammo to have any chance of hitting. And that is not an exaggeration. “When firing at a mini-UAV of the Akila type with cannon weapons at a distance of 3 km, in order to achieve a value of the conditional probability of hitting a target equal to 0.5, it is necessary to expend from 4 to 13 thousand shells,” says Makarenko. The Tunguska fires an impressive five thousand rounds per minute from its two cannon, but only carries 1,904 rounds in total. The above calculation suggests that a drone would have to hover within range for long enough for the defenders to empty their guns, reload, then empty them again just to have a 50% chance of a hit. In fact, that's not just a ton of ammo, it's something over three tons. This may be why we see a video apparently showing a Pantsir crew baling out of their vehicle before it gets hits by an incoming FPV drone they were unable to stop. Heat seeking missiles lije those fired by Strela do not work well either, because they are designed to home in on the hot exhaust of a jet engine. Small drones simply do not emit enough infra-red to show up against the background of the sky. “Target acquisition via the IR channel is generally impossible due to its extremely weak thermal radiation,” (my emphasis) says Makarenko. He notes that in the cases where it is possible – bigger drones with liquid-fueled engines which generate more heat – the missiles can usually only lock on when the drone is flying away. He adds that most Russian surface-to-air heat-seeking missiles are fitted with impact fuses. These work well with big targets like aircraft, but unless the missile scores a direct hit on a small drone they just fly right past. Some missile now have proximity fuses, but even then Makarenko notes that the performance is not great against small drones. To destroy an aircraft, a small number of large pieces of shrapnel is best, but these may miss a small drone altogether. What they need is a warhead which throws out a dense cloud of smaller fragments and which does not yet exist. In a historical section Makarenko details the results of encounters between Russian air defense systems and drones in Libya, Syria and Nagorno-Karabakh, none of which worked out well for the defenders, and traces the problems back to the type of technical issue described above. Looking ahead, he becomes even gloomier when looking at how existing systems are highly vulnerable to attacks by multiple drones coming from different directions. “The number of simultaneously fired targets is limited to 3 for the Pantsir-S2 air defense missile system and 4 for the Tor-M2 air defense system. In this case, the targets being fired at the same time must be in the viewing area of the guidance radar. As a result, it is impossible to simultaneously work on targets attacking from different directions.” (My emphasis) The proliferation of small, cheap drones will make the situation worse. He goes through an exercise showing which calculates that a standard air defense systems will run out of ammunition without managing to stop a swarm of 15 attacking drones. “Light and relatively cheap UAVs can paralyze any air defense,” says Makarenko. Ukraine aims to acquire some 200,000 drones by the end of the year. Makarenko has many suggestions for improved defence against drones. These include new types of radar combined with optical and acoustic detection system to reliably detect drones at longer ranges. He discusses radio-frequency jamming at length, likely an important technology but one which has signally failed to stop drones in Ukraine. He mentions other technologies familiar from counter-drone discussions in the West: new types of anti-drone shells with proximity fuzes, and microwaves and lasers. But these will all take some years to develop, and Russia is in the middle of an intense drone war right now. Matters are not helped by a Russian media which insists that there is no problem. "The myth that domestic air defense systems are able to cope with any challenges in the field of countering drones continues to be supported by most official experts and the media, but this is a dangerous delusion," notes a 2022 article on Russian defense site Topwar discussing Makarenko's report. It would be interesting to know if Putin’s military commanders have been brave enough to mention the problem. The problem is acute. Ukraine’s Army of Drones claimed to have destroyed 132 targets including 30 armored vehicles in one week in November. Plenty of videos suggest these numbers are fairly accurate if not understated. Many other Ukrainian drone teams operate independently of the Army of Drones. Other nations, including the U.S. which is still working on its drone defenses, should take note. The challenge of small drones will not go away, and existing air defence provides little protection. Thankfully, we aren't in the same boat as the Russians.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqs1FxWwAEi7VY?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqs2OWWUAAazlF?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqs4BhXwAAQzpn?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAqtJwGWwAAWtAX?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAq2RhRXsAAyc_K?format=jpg&name=large I haven't been impressed with Echodyne's radars so far. Maybe this one will be different. Finding small, stationary drones is really, really hard. Finding mostly foam fixed-wings is equally hard. It's good to see we're taking the sUAS threat/potential seriously (finally). |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:35:03 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Looked to me like the 2nd FPV drone had already been dispatched and found the target had already been kaboomed. And, why was that thing all by itself out in the open? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Looked to me like the 2nd FPV drone had already been dispatched and found the target had already been kaboomed. And, why was that thing all by itself out in the open? There's definitely more to this than what we see. It may not be an S-350, but part of an S-300 system. Either way an interesting development that an FPV was able to get such a target. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:36:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Do you want to see some Russian cringe? I mean a LOT of cringe. Bringing back "Pioneer camps" for adult Russians, most of whom probably attended the originals during the Soviet era.
 Russian pioneer camp "Ahead to the USSR" Now for the regular news talk show with Skabeeva featuring a dean from Moscow State University. First he talks about the need to punish Ukrainians after they inevitably defeat Ukraine in battle, punish them the old Russian way (whatever that is, it typically was pretty bad). Milley wants to slit all our throats. Then he talks about America being racist to everyone else, but gets hung up on the fact that SecDef Austin is a Negro.   Vitaly Tretyakov wants to punish Ukrainians after Russia wins |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:39:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Donetsk Beautiful
Consequences of the shelling of the Voroshilovsky district of Donetsk https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3952-3051032.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3953-3051031.jpg https://t.me/itsdonetsk/119712 Donetsk now, everything is in smoke According to preliminary data, an oil depot is on fire in the Budennovsky district.
#AGS_Summary 17.32 - Air defense is operating in the skies of the DPR again. Be careful. https://t.me/Ags_Donbass/228318 #AGS_Summary 17.34 - Kalininsky, Voroshilovsky, Budennovsky and Proletarsky districts of Donetsk are still at risk. Arrivals are reported again. We are updating the information. https://t.me/Ags_Donbass/228319 Look! Those Ukronazis are shelling civilian targets in peaceful Donetsk again! The poor, innocent people of Donetsk just want to live in peace, free from the Nazi regime in Kiev, and look what those Nazis do! Attacking innocent civilians!
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:40:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Four Russia-Affiliated Military Personnel Charged with War Crimes in Connection with Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine
War crimes charges against four Russia-affiliated military personnel were unsealed today in the Eastern District of Virginia. The charges include torture, inhuman treatment, and unlawful confinement of a U.S. national in Ukraine following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Suren Seiranovich Mkrtchyan, 45, Dmitry Budnik, Valerii LNU (last name unknown), and Nazar LNU were each charged in connection with their unlawful detainment of a U.S. national in the context of the armed conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The defendants are alleged to have interrogated, severely beaten, and tortured the victim. They also allegedly threatened to kill the victim and conducted a mock execution. “As the world has witnessed the horrors of Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine, so has the United States Department of Justice,” said Attorney General Merrick B. Garland. “That is why the Justice Department has filed the first ever charges under the U.S. war crimes statute against four Russia- affiliated military personnel for heinous crimes against an American citizen. The Justice Department will work for as long as it takes to pursue accountability and justice for Russia’s war of aggression.” “Thanks to the tireless and unprecedented work of federal law enforcement agents from Homeland Security Investigations and the Justice Department, four Russian soldiers, accused of unthinkable, unacceptable human rights violations against an American citizen, have been charged with war crimes and will be brought to justice,” said Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro N. Mayorkas. “The indictments unsealed today send a clear message to Russia – our government will spare no effort and spare no resource to hold accountable those who violate the fundamental human rights of an American.” “Since the start of their unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, Russia has weaponized human rights abuses to wreak unimaginable tragedy,” said FBI Director Christopher Wray. “Today’s indictment – the first ever under the U.S. war crimes statute – makes clear that the FBI will work with the full cooperation of international law enforcement to bring justice to the victims of these atrocities. The human toll of the conflict in Ukraine weighs heavily on the hearts of the FBI, and we’re resolved to hold war criminals accountable no matter where they are or how long it takes.” “Torturing and unlawfully confining a protected person are serious human rights abuses that must not go unpunished,” said Acting Assistant Attorney General Nicole M. Argentieri of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division. “These historic criminal charges – the first ever brought under the U.S. war crimes statute – are an important step in the Justice Department’s continuing efforts to pursue every avenue of accountability for those who commit war crimes and other atrocities in Ukraine.” According to allegations in the indictment, Mkrtchyan and Budnik were commanding officers of military units of the Russian Armed Forces and/or the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, and Valerii and Nazar were lower-ranking military personnel. The defendants are alleged to have been fighting on behalf of Russia in Ukraine when they allegedly committed war crimes. In April 2022, Mkrtchyan and soldiers under his command allegedly abducted the victim, a U.S. national, from his home in the village of Mylove in the Kherson Oblast region in southern Ukraine and unlawfully confined him for at least 10 days. During the abduction, Mkrtchyan, Valerii, Nazar, and others allegedly threw the victim face down to the ground while he was naked, tied his hands behind his back, pointed a gun at his head, and severely beat him, including with the stocks of their guns. Mkrtchyan, Valerii, Nazar, and others then allegedly transported the victim to an improvised military compound in Mylove. “These charges reflect that the defendants’ alleged actions are not only grave breaches of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, but also violations of U.S. law,” said U.S. Attorney Jessica D. Aber for the Eastern District of Virginia. “We are proud to be at the forefront of the Justice Department’s effort to hold perpetrators of war crimes violations accountable in Ukraine and will continue to pursue them. We thank our investigative partners on this case, the War Crimes Accountability Team, the FBI Washington Field Office, and Homeland Security Investigations for their outstanding efforts to gather evidence required for these charges.” The indictment also alleges that Mkrtchyan and Budnik led and participated in at least two interrogation sessions during which the four defendants and others tortured the victim. During one interrogation, Mkrtchyan, Valerii, and Nazar allegedly stripped off the victim’s clothes and photographed him. The defendants and others then allegedly severely beat the victim, pointed guns at the back of his head, and threatened to shoot him. Budnik allegedly threatened the victim with death and asked for his last words. Shortly thereafter, Nazar and others allegedly conducted a mock execution. They allegedly forced the victim to the ground, put a gun to the back of his head, then moved the gun slightly and shot a bullet just past the victim’s head. “These historic charges are the culmination of a complex investigation by the FBI and our partners that spans the globe,” said Assistant Director in Charge David Sundberg of the FBI Washington Field Office. “The FBI will continue to work alongside our domestic and international partners to pursue justice and hold those accountable who commit such atrocities against others.” “Acting on behalf of the Russian Armed Forces and the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, these four individuals allegedly violated the human rights of an American citizen,” said Executive Associate Director Katrina W. Berger of Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). “According to the charges, they unlawfully detained and tortured the American citizen, and even went so far as to carry out a mock execution. The unsealing of these charges for war crimes is an important step in bringing the responsible parties to justice. HSI will continue to aggressively pursue anyone who violates the human rights of our American citizens – at home or overseas.” The defendants are charged with three war crimes – unlawful confinement, torture, and inhuman treatment – and one count of conspiracy to commit war crimes. If convicted, the defendants each face a maximum penalty of life in prison. The FBI Washington Field Office and HSI Washington, D.C., Field Office, with assistance from the FBI’s International Human Rights Unit and HSI’s Human Rights Violators and War Crimes Center, investigated the war crimes allegations in partnership with the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Virginia and the Justice Department’s War Crimes Accountability Team, which is based in the Human Rights and Special Prosecutions Section (HRSP) of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division. HRSP Trial Attorney and Lead Prosecutor for the War Crimes Accountability Team Christian Levesque, HRSP Trial Attorney Patrick Jasperse, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Alexander E. Blanchard for the Eastern District of Virginia are prosecuting the case, with significant assistance from Former Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas W. Traxler for the Eastern District of Virginia. HRSP historians and other staff provided substantial assistance in the investigation and prosecution. The Criminal Division’s Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section, Appellate Section, Office of Enforcement Operations, and Office of International Affairs, as well as the National Security Division, also provided valuable assistance. The Justice Department is grateful for the substantial assistance the Office of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine has provided in furthering the investigation. An indictment is merely an allegation. All defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. Updated December 6, 2023 https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-russia-affiliated-military-personnel-charged-war-crimes-connection-russias-invasion |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:44:28 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: Objective, Offensive, Mass. You have the last two figured out, and I think you're really on to something. But, what objective? I say, liberate Crimea. We know they can (probably) destroy the Kerch bridge without too much difficulty IF they commit to it in tandem with a mass assault down into the peninsula. An alliance with a seafaring power (::cough:: US ::cough::) to fight off Russian Naval and air assets transiting the sea would be a huge benefit in that kind of campaign. Suffice to say, I would love to see the complete and successful liberation of Crimea as part of a spring 2024 offensive. It could very well break the back of Russia's forces and will to prolong the war. I suspect that if Ukraine could successfully take Crimea, it might also have serious political implications back in Moscow. Shoigu & Gerasimov would be gone, and the token, controlled opposition in the Duma might even publicly question the Supreme Leader. Solovyov's meltdown would be epic. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:47:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Please explain. CMOS When the initial PATRIOT version was fielded, it was primarily designed for Air-Breathing Threats (with some capability against MRBMs). To greatly simplify things, since Air Breathers were the primary initial target set, the explosion was optimized to focus on the main body of the target, since on a jet that is where the engines, wing structure, fuel, and a large amount of other good 'splodey stuff is located. Gulf War I, with the target set changed to primarily Ballistic Missiles, taught us that even if you blow up the airframe of a missile, the payload often survived. That means that, say PATRIOT is defending an area target (such as an airbase, city, industrial area, seaport, etc), there was a good chance that the payload was still going to land and go Boom! somewhere where it was going to cause damage. Therefore, PAC II was optimized to destroy the forward portion of a target, where the payload is located on a missile. This had the unintended (but very welcome) consequence of making PAC II even MORE effective against air breathing threats, as shredding the cockpit to the point of structural collapse and converting the crew into diced long pork tends to stop the aircraft from flying RFN. Therefore, when PAC III, which is a "Kinetic" (hit-to-kill) round came along, PAC II was retained as well and was upgraded, since transonic/supersonic cruise missiles were becoming a thing, as besides PAC-2's sterling capability to convert the front third of most existing aircraft into falling debris, it also does really "Old Testament" things to cruise missiles. Therefore, the OP was stating that there was a high likelihood that you would need a state-of-the-art forensics lab to identify what ever was left of the crew once the missile went off. 
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:51:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/234577/plate_JPG-3051054.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/234577/plate1_JPG-3051055.JPG These dudes came from Siberia to die from a tungsten hail.  I love how this thread brings in people to identify every detail.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 12:52:07 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: They get the mice, but the idiots finish them off completely. Nowadays, in the trenches and dugouts, talk about “biological sabotage” with mice, or at least the “conscious inaction” of those who were supposed to poison mice in the fields, has become popular. I don’t believe in the first at all, and the second - I don’t believe in “consciousness.” But I believe in mice - everything goes disastrously here with them. Corroded materiel and personal belongings of fighters are the beginning of trouble. Someone ends up in the hospital because of mouse bites - and this is no time for jokes, given the whole bouquet of surprises from the bites of these creatures. And then come the idiots. And I'm afraid of them myself. Taking a soldier's peacoat into which mice have crawled - and "shooting" him with an anti-drone gun at point-blank range right in the dugout - completed (-1 phone and -1 working laptop as a bonus) Get rat poison and scatter it everywhere, including a food warehouse, then get a broken jaw after talking with annoyed officers - completed Spraying a dugout with dichlorvos without calculating the consequences - completed Throw the bag with the collected exterminated rodents behind the potbelly stove (you should brag to others), change your position yourself and forget about the bag - done (they stink worse than a corpse) Not checking the supplies one more time (and here every extra one is not superfluous, but a spare one), losing as much mice in a day as we lose from shelling - accomplished Telling soldiers' tales about the terrible biological consequences of bites from special CIA mice does not count; soldiers' tales are eternal and cannot be punished Order “powerful mice repellents” to volunteers, get 10 mousetraps on 2.5 km of systems, several injured and one broken finger among the l/s arguing that the mousetrap “just hurts, but won’t break anything / will cut off a finger for the hell of it” " - done And this is just a side issue that distracts from the actual fighting. And nothing more. One of the definite advantages is that you can feel the replenishment of your l/s for the first time in a long time. We have reached the stage of dominance of manpower, now may God grant us the strength, intelligence and ability to manage this wisely. https://t.me/shouvalov/164  "special CIA mice" 
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Posted: 12/6/2023 1:05:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#45]
Putin’s reception in UAE.
 UAE. Arrival of the Supreme Commander at the Presidential Palace Qasr Al-Watan Looks epic. They will discuss the oil issue and Russia's role in OPEC+. The topic of Israel's war will be touched upon. Two majors https://t.me/dva_majors/30308 |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 1:08:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Regarding the captured Bradley ODS captured the other day. I like the overlay panel in the Ukrainian language over the English.
They get a medal for a trophy armor piece? Never mind that the design & electronics are, what, 40 years old? I bet that even today Russia lacks the fine production capability to match our metallurgical output; I bet their steels can't meet US spec. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 1:10:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: When the initial PATRIOT version was fielded, it was primarily designed for Air-Breathing Threats (with some capability against MRBMs). To greatly simplify things, since Air Breathers were the primary initial target set, the explosion was optimized to focus on the main body of the target, since on a jet that is where the engines, wing structure, fuel, and a large amount of other good 'splodey stuff is located. Gulf War I, with the target set changed to primarily Ballistic Missiles, taught us that even if you blow up the airframe of a missile, the payload often survived. That means that, say PATRIOT is defending an area target (such as an airbase, city, industrial area, seaport, etc), there was a good chance that the payload was still going to land and go Boom! somewhere where it was going to cause damage. Therefore, PAC II was optimized to destroy the forward portion of a target, where the payload is located on a missile. This had the unintended (but very welcome) consequence of making PAC II even MORE effective against air breathing threats, as shredding the cockpit to the point of structural collapse and converting the crew into diced long pork tends to stop the aircraft from flying RFN. Therefore, when PAC III, which is a "Kinetic" (hit-to-kill) round came along, PAC II was retained as well and was upgraded, since transonic/supersonic cruise missiles were becoming a thing, as besides PAC-2's sterling capability to convert the front third of most existing aircraft into falling debris, it also does really "Old Testament" things to cruise missiles. Therefore, the OP was stating that there was a high likelihood that you would need a state-of-the-art forensics lab to identify what ever was left of the crew once the missile went off. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Originally Posted By CMOS: Please explain. CMOS When the initial PATRIOT version was fielded, it was primarily designed for Air-Breathing Threats (with some capability against MRBMs). To greatly simplify things, since Air Breathers were the primary initial target set, the explosion was optimized to focus on the main body of the target, since on a jet that is where the engines, wing structure, fuel, and a large amount of other good 'splodey stuff is located. Gulf War I, with the target set changed to primarily Ballistic Missiles, taught us that even if you blow up the airframe of a missile, the payload often survived. That means that, say PATRIOT is defending an area target (such as an airbase, city, industrial area, seaport, etc), there was a good chance that the payload was still going to land and go Boom! somewhere where it was going to cause damage. Therefore, PAC II was optimized to destroy the forward portion of a target, where the payload is located on a missile. This had the unintended (but very welcome) consequence of making PAC II even MORE effective against air breathing threats, as shredding the cockpit to the point of structural collapse and converting the crew into diced long pork tends to stop the aircraft from flying RFN. Therefore, when PAC III, which is a "Kinetic" (hit-to-kill) round came along, PAC II was retained as well and was upgraded, since transonic/supersonic cruise missiles were becoming a thing, as besides PAC-2's sterling capability to convert the front third of most existing aircraft into falling debris, it also does really "Old Testament" things to cruise missiles. Therefore, the OP was stating that there was a high likelihood that you would need a state-of-the-art forensics lab to identify what ever was left of the crew once the missile went off. Awesome explanation, "does really Old Testament things to cruise missiles." should be sig line material.
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Posted: 12/6/2023 1:16:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: They get a medal for a trophy armor piece? Never mind that the design & electronics are, what, 40 years old? I bet that even today Russia lacks the fine production capability to match our metallurgical output; I bet their steels can't meet US spec. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Regarding the captured Bradley ODS captured the other day. I like the overlay panel in the Ukrainian language over the English.
They get a medal for a trophy armor piece? Never mind that the design & electronics are, what, 40 years old? I bet that even today Russia lacks the fine production capability to match our metallurgical output; I bet their steels can't meet US spec. I don't think their steel ever did meet U.S. spec, even in WWII with their tanks vs. ours. |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 1:18:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#49]
 
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Posted: 12/6/2023 1:28:40 PM EDT
[#50]
come on man
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