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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:44:30 PM EDT
[#1]
This is an interesting perspective.
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:47:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FrankyRay: This is an interesting perspective.
Oh geez. Leave it to a lawyer.” It depends on what the definition of invade is” |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:48:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: The more I think about this, the more I realize that Russia can't militarily conquer Ukraine. They could certainly invade and take the entire country most likely. But they would never be able to hold it. A nationwide insurgency that lasted for years would bleed Russia dry, both in lives and money. And you know the west would make sure they had a constant flow of weapons and support. The other option would be to overrun the country, install a pro-Russian government, then leave. But that would not work either. As soon as Russia left the Ukrainians would throw out such a puppet government faster and much more violently than they did in 2014. The majority of Ukraine's citizenry is now an organized militia. Over 50% of residents in a recent poll stated they would actively take up arms against Russia if they invaded. Russia may have a big army, but not anywhere big enough to control a country the size of Texas with with over 22 million of its citizens ready to fight. I'm really not sure what Putin's end game is here. The guy isn't regarded as a fruitcake. He is supposedly a rational player. He has to be able to look at this picture and reach the same conclusions everybody else is. So what is he trying to accomplish? Does he hope these tactics will scare someone in the west so badly that they block Ukraine from a NATO membership? Does he think the weak Biden admin will cave and offer him some major concession for basically free? The thought would have to occur to him after watching how Obama/Biden has dealt with Iran and the signing of that shitty nuclear deal that Trump threw in the trash. It just seems like he is trying to scare someone into giving him something. But I'm just not sure he is really prepared for or in any realistic position to take what we wants by force. This is pretty much the same conclusion I have come to. I still think smaller parts of Eastern Ukraine are in play and Putin would have a better chance of holding, but I just can't war game out a scenario where going for Kiev or all of Ukraine would make sense. Russia does not have the military might or economic power it did in the 60s and 70s. Putin has surely watched the US fuck up Iraq and Afghanistan and spend trillions. He most certainly knows of the USSR and Afghanistan in the 80s. I just can't see him trying to take much of Ukraine knowing this. Then again, it is 2022 and fucking nothing makes sense anymore. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:49:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 07Commander]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Greyswandir: Oh geez. Leave it to a lawyer.” It depends on what the definition of invade is” Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Greyswandir: Originally Posted By FrankyRay: This is an interesting perspective.
Oh geez. Leave it to a lawyer.” It depends on what the definition of invade is” “We aren’t going to ‘invade-invade’. We’re just going to invade.” |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:50:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: The more I think about this, the more I realize that Russia can't militarily conquer Ukraine. They could certainly invade and take the entire country most likely. But they would never be able to hold it. A nationwide insurgency that lasted for years would bleed Russia dry, both in lives and money. And you know the west would make sure they had a constant flow of weapons and support. The other option would be to overrun the country, install a pro-Russian government, then leave. But that would not work either. As soon as Russia left the Ukrainians would throw out such a puppet government faster and much more violently than they did in 2014. The majority of Ukraine's citizenry is now an organized militia. Over 50% of residents in a recent poll stated they would actively take up arms against Russia if they invaded. Russia may have a big army, but not anywhere big enough to control a country the size of Texas with with over 22 million of its citizens ready to fight. I'm really not sure what Putin's end game is here. The guy isn't regarded as a fruitcake. He is supposedly a rational player. He has to be able to look at this picture and reach the same conclusions everybody else is. So what is he trying to accomplish? Does he hope these tactics will scare someone in the west so badly that they block Ukraine from a NATO membership? Does he think the weak Biden admin will cave and offer him some major concession for basically free? The thought would have to occur to him after watching how Obama/Biden has dealt with Iran and the signing of that shitty nuclear deal that Trump threw in the trash. It just seems like he is trying to scare someone into giving him something. But I'm just not sure he is really prepared for or in any realistic position to take what we wants by force. I’ve been thinking about the same thing. Is he possibly sick or terminally ill and trying to make one last move to attempt to reform the Soviet Union? Or is this a move to shore up his domestic image to give Russians something to rally around and support him? Invading Ukraine just seems like a huge risk that isn’t worth the reward. I’ve heard all the of the strategic points that he’s supposedly trying to gain from this but none of them seem to be worth the risk. As history shows, wars rarely (or ever) go the way the initial aggressor plans, and rarely turn out in anything more than a bad situation in the best case, and absolute tragedy in the worst case. I just can’t figure out what his end game is. Throughout history it seems that dictator type strongmen like Putin always seem to end up getting into a war though. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:50:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -daddy]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 07Commander: “We aren’t going to ‘invade-invade’. We’re just going to invade.” Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 07Commander: Originally Posted By Greyswandir: Originally Posted By FrankyRay: This is an interesting perspective.
Oh geez. Leave it to a lawyer.” It depends on what the definition of invade is” “We aren’t going to ‘invade-invade’. We’re just going to invade.” Whoopi Goldberg approves of your wordplay. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:51:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Greyswandir: Oh geez. Leave it to a lawyer.” It depends on what the definition of invade is” Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Greyswandir: Originally Posted By FrankyRay: This is an interesting perspective.
Oh geez. Leave it to a lawyer.” It depends on what the definition of invade is” I kind of agree with him though. Russia invaded in 2014 and “separatists” have been occupying parts of Ukraine ever since. Using wording that reminds us of this is good. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:51:26 PM EDT
[#8]
In addition to the "undisclosed" number of F-35s that have already arrived at Spangdahlem AB, Germany (from Hill AFB, UT), 8 F-15E Strike Eagles have also been deployed there. Perhaps some of those numerous EAM's we heard today could have been related to this activity.
https://warriormaven.com/global-security/f-35-russia-ukraine We also have a number of F-35s now in the UK at RAF Lakenheath. But they have only started to recently arrive there. I'm not sure that squadron is fully mission capable yet. But it is nice to see we have some our best assets starting to arrive in Europe, just in case. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:52:23 PM EDT
[#9]
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:54:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Drakich]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Walleyeguy24: This is pretty much the same conclusion I have come to. I still think smaller parts of Eastern Ukraine are in play and Putin would have a better chance of holding, but I just can't war game out a scenario where going for Kiev or all of Ukraine would make sense. Russia does not have the military might or economic power it did in the 60s and 70s. Putin has surely watched the US fuck up Iraq and Afghanistan and spend trillions. He most certainly knows of the USSR and Afghanistan in the 80s. I just can't see him trying to take much of Ukraine knowing this. Then again, it is 2022 and fucking nothing makes sense anymore. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Walleyeguy24: Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: The more I think about this, the more I realize that Russia can't militarily conquer Ukraine. They could certainly invade and take the entire country most likely. But they would never be able to hold it. A nationwide insurgency that lasted for years would bleed Russia dry, both in lives and money. And you know the west would make sure they had a constant flow of weapons and support. The other option would be to overrun the country, install a pro-Russian government, then leave. But that would not work either. As soon as Russia left the Ukrainians would throw out such a puppet government faster and much more violently than they did in 2014. The majority of Ukraine's citizenry is now an organized militia. Over 50% of residents in a recent poll stated they would actively take up arms against Russia if they invaded. Russia may have a big army, but not anywhere big enough to control a country the size of Texas with with over 22 million of its citizens ready to fight. I'm really not sure what Putin's end game is here. The guy isn't regarded as a fruitcake. He is supposedly a rational player. He has to be able to look at this picture and reach the same conclusions everybody else is. So what is he trying to accomplish? Does he hope these tactics will scare someone in the west so badly that they block Ukraine from a NATO membership? Does he think the weak Biden admin will cave and offer him some major concession for basically free? The thought would have to occur to him after watching how Obama/Biden has dealt with Iran and the signing of that shitty nuclear deal that Trump threw in the trash. It just seems like he is trying to scare someone into giving him something. But I'm just not sure he is really prepared for or in any realistic position to take what we wants by force. This is pretty much the same conclusion I have come to. I still think smaller parts of Eastern Ukraine are in play and Putin would have a better chance of holding, but I just can't war game out a scenario where going for Kiev or all of Ukraine would make sense. Russia does not have the military might or economic power it did in the 60s and 70s. Putin has surely watched the US fuck up Iraq and Afghanistan and spend trillions. He most certainly knows of the USSR and Afghanistan in the 80s. I just can't see him trying to take much of Ukraine knowing this. Then again, it is 2022 and fucking nothing makes sense anymore. National Review thinks the game is this: Ukraine wants political independence from Russia and is willing to lose territory - and the Russian loyalists as part of the bargain. Russia wants an intact Ukraine because the Russian population will keep Ukraine politically divided and thus subservient to Russia and not the West. Thus if Russia invades it won’t be to annex part it all of Ukraine it will be for regime change and to get Ukraine back to implementing the Minsk agreement. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:54:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 07Commander: “We aren’t going to ‘invade-invade’. We’re just going to invade.” 
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:55:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
Tonight would be a good time to FO and screw up that meeting |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:58:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FrankyRay: This is an interesting perspective.
I wonder if their dudes get similar uniform flair for pooping in Europe...  |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:05:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: The more I think about this, the more I realize that Russia can't militarily conquer Ukraine. They could certainly invade and take the entire country most likely. But they would never be able to hold it. A nationwide insurgency that lasted for years would bleed Russia dry, both in lives and money. And you know the west would make sure they had a constant flow of weapons and support. The other option would be to overrun the country, install a pro-Russian government, then leave. But that would not work either. As soon as Russia left the Ukrainians would throw out such a puppet government faster and much more violently than they did in 2014. The majority of Ukraine's citizenry is now an organized militia. Over 50% of residents in a recent poll stated they would actively take up arms against Russia if they invaded. Russia may have a big army, but not anywhere big enough to control a country the size of Texas with with over 22 million of its citizens ready to fight. I'm really not sure what Putin's end game is here. The guy isn't regarded as a fruitcake. He is supposedly a rational player. He has to be able to look at this picture and reach the same conclusions everybody else is. So what is he trying to accomplish? Does he hope these tactics will scare someone in the west so badly that they block Ukraine from a NATO membership? Does he think the weak Biden admin will cave and offer him some major concession for basically free? The thought would have to occur to him after watching how Obama/Biden has dealt with Iran and the signing of that shitty nuclear deal that Trump threw in the trash. It just seems like he is trying to scare someone into giving him something. But I'm just not sure he is really prepared for or in any realistic position to take what we wants by force. The big lesson learned four times since Vietnam. You can’t do successful counterinsurgency if the enemy has a sanctuary, and can wait you out. There are a lot of nations on the western border that serve that role. The Russians can’t defeat a Ukrainian insurgency, given the neighbors that hate their guts. Chickens come home to roost. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:15:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Now we're fucking talking! About damn time we sent something into theater that has the capability for a dominating presence. Sending 6 F-16's to Romania and 6 worn out F-15's that were preparing to be handed over to the ANG to Estonia or Poland wasn't very reassuring. The F-35 OTOH, is a game changer. Even a few of those being present completely changes the dynamic. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any if we sent over some Raptors as well, along with more armor and self propelled artillery. A few more conventional capable B-52s or B-1Bs going to RAF Fairford to join the 4 already there and a good supply of JASSMs would also seem a prudent move. Bring in some stuff that can seriously fuck shit up if needed. That is how you deter an adversary. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
Now we're fucking talking! About damn time we sent something into theater that has the capability for a dominating presence. Sending 6 F-16's to Romania and 6 worn out F-15's that were preparing to be handed over to the ANG to Estonia or Poland wasn't very reassuring. The F-35 OTOH, is a game changer. Even a few of those being present completely changes the dynamic. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any if we sent over some Raptors as well, along with more armor and self propelled artillery. A few more conventional capable B-52s or B-1Bs going to RAF Fairford to join the 4 already there and a good supply of JASSMs would also seem a prudent move. Bring in some stuff that can seriously fuck shit up if needed. That is how you deter an adversary. Sounds like you have a real hard on to get it on. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:15:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ERNURSE]
[#16]
the Ukrainians have never forgot the Holodomor!
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:20:22 PM EDT
[#17]
The spiciness needs to stop.
But, alas |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:28:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Now we're fucking talking! About damn time we sent something into theater that has the capability for a dominating presence. Sending 6 F-16's to Romania and 6 worn out F-15's that were preparing to be handed over to the ANG to Estonia or Poland wasn't very reassuring. The F-35 OTOH, is a game changer. Even a few of those being present completely changes the dynamic. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any if we sent over some Raptors as well, along with more armor and self propelled artillery. A few more conventional capable B-52s or B-1Bs going to RAF Fairford to join the 4 already there and a good supply of JASSMs would also seem a prudent move. Bring in some stuff that can seriously fuck shit up if needed. That is how you deter an adversary. Why are you so excited about this and why does the US need to be involved? |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:28:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
POTATUS to the rescue. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:30:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Finslayer83]
[#20]
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:30:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: POTATUS to the rescue. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: Originally Posted By Chokey:
POTATUS to the rescue. 
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:32:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feetpiece: I wonder if their dudes get similar uniform flair for pooping in Europe... https://media.defense.gov/2016/Dec/19/2001680858/-1/-1/0/161215-F-YG475-546.JPG Hey, I have one of those! |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:33:15 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:34:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOW: Sounds like you have a real hard on to get it on. Take a look at Washington, it's always the arm-chair quarterbacks that have never been to war, are always the first ones that want to send off others. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:37:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Charging_Handle]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Why are you so excited about this and why does the US need to be involved? I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:43:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Is anyone else underwhelmed that it's been over a week since the last S2 Underground video?
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:43:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:44:45 PM EDT
[#28]
If the shelling has started, how is this not massive news?
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GA, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:46:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. This right here. We should give zero fucks. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:46:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Hey, I have one of those! I'm still trying to wrap my mind around KFOR still being a thing 23 years later. 
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:49:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trash_Panda: If the shelling has started, how is this not massive news? Back & forth shelling in the Russian occupied part of Ukraine has been going on (& off) since 2014. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:51:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. We are becoming involved so that we don't have to become even more involved and in a much more dire situation later. We aren't sending the F-35 to fight in Ukraine. We are sending them to make sure Russia stays the fuck out of eastern European nations that are a part of NATO. If their presence changes Russia's calculus about invading Ukraine, then all the better. I believe Biden should have kept his mouth shut and been a little more ambivalent about what we might do if Russia invaded Ukraine as opposed to giving them a free pass. Doing so would have given Russia additional pause when it comes to launching any attacks. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:51:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feetpiece: I'm still trying to wrap my mind around KFOR still being a thing 23 years later. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-yxqcm6k9o4/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/9135/14099/10217-kosovo-veteran-ribbon-hat__81885.1614443878.jpg Fuck if I know. I froze my dick off there from 10/2001 - 5/2002 |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:53:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. Its bad for America but good for Globohomo (America must die to be remade) and the defense industry. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:55:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By evo7011: Why are you so excited about this and why does the US need to be involved? I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. What we should be sending metric tons of weapons and ammo not just ATGM but artillery Anti air etc. Some GLONASS jamming equipment would be useful as well. Throw in a boat load of IED's and small arms for an insurgency as well. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:55:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: We are becoming involved so that we don't have to become even more involved and in a much more dire situation later. We aren't sending the F-35 to fight in Ukraine. We are sending them to make sure Russia stays the fuck out of eastern European nations that are a part of NATO. If their presence changes Russia's calculus about invading Ukraine, then all the better. I believe Biden should have kept his mouth shut and been a little more ambivalent about what we might do if Russia invaded Ukraine as opposed to giving them a free pass. Doing so would have given Russia additional pause when it comes to launching any attacks. Dick Cheney, is that you? Since when is Eastern Europe part of the US? Oh its not, then I give fuckall about. Wake me up when Russia is attacking a US State or Territory, until then, I could care less what Putin does. If he wants to expand the Empire, that is not our problem. If he wants to cut of NG to Europe, oh well. Europe needs to take care of their own backyard problems, and clap cheeks if need be. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:56:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By evo7011: Why are you so excited about this and why does the US need to be involved? I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. We should not be involved at all beyond sending shit for the Ukrainians to defend themselves with. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:00:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Charging_Handle]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Dick Cheney, is that you? Since when is Eastern Europe part of the US? Oh its not, then I give fuckall about. Wake me up when Russia is attacking a US State or Territory, until then, I could care less what Putin does. If he wants to expand the Empire, that is not our problem. If he wants to cut of NG to Europe, oh well. Europe needs to take care of their own backyard problems, and clap cheeks if need be. If you are unwilling to uphold our NATO commitments, then I could really give less than a fuck about you or any of your opinions. You are just as useless as the Germans. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:02:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: If you are unwilling to uphold our NATO commitments, then I could really give less than a fuck about you or any of your opinions. You are just as useless as the Germans. hmmm is Ukraine a NATO member? Have you been to war? |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:02:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. Tell me why we need to be involved at all. Is Russia attacking/invading an ally? Are they attacking the US? Is Russia actively undermining US policy? Please, feel free to debate all you, I'm all ears. I've been to the ME and the Balkans. Russia is always undermining US policy. They have never not. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:05:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DOW]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Have you been to war? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: If you are unwilling to uphold our NATO commitments, then I could really give less than a fuck about you or any of your opinions. You are just as useless as the Germans. Have you been to war? I'd love to hear an answer to this simple question. Maybe he wants your son to go. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:06:18 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Dick Cheney, is that you? Since when is Eastern Europe part of the US? Oh its not, then I give fuckall about. Wake me up when Russia is attacking a US State or Territory, until then, I could care less what Putin does. If he wants to expand the Empire, that is not our problem. If he wants to cut of NG to Europe, oh well. Europe needs to take care of their own backyard problems, and clap cheeks if need be. It’s not part of the US, but it’s better to project strength to prevent conflict than project weakness. By your mindset, why waste the money on our large military to begin with? No one has directly threatened to attack the US since what, 1812? Why not scale back everything but our nukes and a large enough air and ground force to protect our homeland and save the money and trouble? |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:06:58 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:07:03 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: In addition to the "undisclosed" number of F-35s that have already arrived at Spangdahlem AB, Germany (from Hill AFB, UT), 8 F-15E Strike Eagles have also been deployed there. Perhaps some of those numerous EAM's we heard today could have been related to this activity. https://warriormaven.com/global-security/f-35-russia-ukraine We also have a number of F-35s now in the UK at RAF Lakenheath. But they have only started to recently arrive there. I'm not sure that squadron is fully mission capable yet. But it is nice to see we have some our best assets starting to arrive in Europe, just in case. Sure would be nice to have F-16's at Hahn Ab, and F-15's at Bitburg Ab. Oh yeah we gave those bases back to Germany. I lived on Hahn in 1987-88. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:08:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ChicagoFoodie]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bunn19: It’s not part of the US, but it’s better to project strength to prevent conflict than project weakness. By your mindset, why waste the money on our large military to begin with? No one has directly threatened to attack the US since what, 1812? Why not scale back everything but our nukes and a large enough air and ground force to protect our homeland and save the money and trouble? I agree 100%. Cut the budget by 50% and pull back our troops. Current defense budget is $770bn, that's way too much. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:12:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: I am happy we are sending hardware to the region that can kick some ass if it comes to that instead of a bunch of clapped out F-15C models that should be in the damn boneyard. We already have thousands of folks committed in the region. If we are committed, then we need to send our most capable equipment. This is the first sign our leadership is finally willing to do this. Doing less is how you get people killed. On a related topic, I was surprised to see F-15Cs being sent over there. The MO Air National Guard had an F-15C fail and crash about 15 years ago (the pilot got away with a broken arm). |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:13:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: Fuck if I know. I froze my dick off there from 10/2001 - 5/2002 I rotated through Bondsteel off and on ~ 99-00 and the threats of war smells like the same bullshit that kicked off Task Force Hawk. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:14:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MochaJava]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bunn19: By your mindset, why waste the money on our large military to begin with? No one has directly threatened to attack the US since what, 1812?  |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:17:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOW: I'd love to hear an answer to this simple question. Maybe he wants your son to go. Jokes on him, I have no sons.  Attached File |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 10:18:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By evo7011: hmmm is Ukraine a NATO member? Have you been to war? Hold on there a minute partner. We aren't talking about Ukraine. We're talking about Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, and Bulgaria. They are indeed NATO members. In the post you quoted me on, you specifically said if it didn't involve U.S. territory specifically, then you didn't think we should be involved. That means you don't think we should do our part to defend NATO member nations. That is the part I have a major problem with. I don't think we should go to war over Ukraine either. But I do believe in our country doing its part to uphold its commitments. And I loathe any nation who doesn't. And to answer your question, no, I have never been to war. But in regards to this discussion, I don't think that matters one way or another. Even if someone had served in every war from WWII to present and wore 4 stars on their collar, they would still be wrong if they were unwilling to uphold our end of the bargain as being a NATO member. Of course we should help defend eastern European NATO member states. I'd argue they are more worthy of and deserving of our support than many of the long time western European NATO members. At least they are making an effort to hold up their end of the deal and meeting spending goals, all while being much poorer than western Europe. If we are unwilling to do our part, then we should leave NATO entirely. But if we are to remain, we have to take a leading role being the most powerful NATO member nation. We would be absolute dogshit as a nation to not do so. |
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