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Link Posted: 9/10/2024 5:58:27 PM EST
[#1]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:
Russia only has 4000 updated SAMs? The US has more PAC-2/3 than that (estimated) and it’s not nearly enough…
View Quote


They also have the option of updating the fuel on tens of thousands of others.  With that said the US has effectively zero short and medium range systems so being able to spend 10-20x more per kill with significantly lower production rates isn't necessarily a feature.  Were watching why that is right now in multiple theaters.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:00:39 PM EST
[#2]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


I keep getting told Russia is flying them off the rails the second they leave the factory, so that would be different.  Either way, the people assessing those low production rates have been wrong if Russia has been able to stockpile missiles and OWAs as deep as being shown now...so both some column A and some column B are in play here.

Russia is obviously expending significantly more munitions due to the Kursk offensive. That is not in question.  However that has little to nothing to do with the overall trends shown the past 2-3 quarters.

With that said whatever they are doing in Kursk seems to be working as of late without impacting momentum on the lines elsewhere, so these misconceptions about production capacity and stockpiles are indeed a problem.
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Since you're here, am I correct in my assumption that the west's actions to limit Ukrainian long range strike capability are at least partially motivated by concerns about Russia achieving more assistance from Iran and China? I also suspect part of it is has been to maintain some escalatory tools in response to Russian action elsewhere, such as arming the Houthis or Hezbollah. Is there at least some truth to that, that you can disclose on an open forum?
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:07:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734] [#3]
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Originally Posted By Jaehaerys:

Since you're here, am I correct in my assumption that the west's actions to limit Ukrainian long range strike capability are at least partially motivated by concerns about Russia achieving more assistance from Iran and China? I also suspect part of it is has been to maintain some escalatory tools in response to Russian action elsewhere, such as arming the Houthis or Hezbollah. Is there at least some truth to that, that you can disclose on an open forum?
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I've said since the start I believe that the escalatory prohibitions were exactly that. We can barely keep up with they active players we have right now, we're absolutely fucked if missiles start showing up from elsewhere.  These SRBM's in my mind are just a sample of that, the transfers started around the time we toyed with letting UKR strike Russian targets. At that same time China started publicly showing pictures of thousands of OWAs they were about to ship straight to Russia. That mysteriously disappeared once the permissions for deep strikes on Russia ended.

At the end of the day we started talking tough recently about letting Ukraine strike Russia again, right after we told them we were going to stop providing GMLRS due to stockpile concerns.  I believe it's just a political shell game trying to appear strong without the consequences.  We're blade running just like Russia is.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:08:31 PM EST
[#4]
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Originally Posted By Prime:
The UN cannot make Russia adhere to international law.

Yesterday in New York, there was a press conference with UN General Assembly President Dennis Francis, where a question was raised about the crimes committed by Russia, the cessation of the war, and how to make the Russians comply with international law.

The response was quite amusing:

"The UN does not operate through coercion; we act according to our values and beliefs. We hope and expect that all UN members will respect and implement the commitments they have made upon joining the UN. One of these commitments, of course, is respect for the territorial integrity of other countries. We continue to hope and expect that the Russians will honor their obligations. But we do not have the capacity or mandate to force the Russians. Russians, like Ukraine and all other member states, are sovereign. They make their own decisions, and they make them independently, and we must respect the fact that they do so."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXHtsDGXcAA_-Mo?format=jpg&name=large
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Admission that the UN is completely useless.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:14:47 PM EST
[#5]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


I've said since the start I believe that the escalatory prohibitions were exactly that. We can barely keep up with they active players we have right now, we're absolutely fucked if missiles start showing up from elsewhere.  These SRBM's in my mind are just a sample of that, the transfers started around the time we toyed with letting UKR strike Russian targets. At that same time China started publicly showing pictures of thousands of OWAs they were about to ship straight to Russia. That mysteriously disappeared once the permissions for deep strikes on Russia ended.

At the end of the day we started talking tough recently about letting Ukraine strike Russia again, right after we told them we were going to stop providing GMLRS due to stockpile concerns.  I believe it's just a political shell game trying to appear strong without the consequences.
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Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By Jaehaerys:

Since you're here, am I correct in my assumption that the west's actions to limit Ukrainian long range strike capability are at least partially motivated by concerns about Russia achieving more assistance from Iran and China? I also suspect part of it is has been to maintain some escalatory tools in response to Russian action elsewhere, such as arming the Houthis or Hezbollah. Is there at least some truth to that, that you can disclose on an open forum?


I've said since the start I believe that the escalatory prohibitions were exactly that. We can barely keep up with they active players we have right now, we're absolutely fucked if missiles start showing up from elsewhere.  These SRBM's in my mind are just a sample of that, the transfers started around the time we toyed with letting UKR strike Russian targets. At that same time China started publicly showing pictures of thousands of OWAs they were about to ship straight to Russia. That mysteriously disappeared once the permissions for deep strikes on Russia ended.

At the end of the day we started talking tough recently about letting Ukraine strike Russia again, right after we told them we were going to stop providing GMLRS due to stockpile concerns.  I believe it's just a political shell game trying to appear strong without the consequences.

Thanks. Follow-up question: You mentioned above that we could hypothetically conduct a technology transfer to significantly increase the effectiveness of Ukrainian long range strike drones. Personally, I've thought for a while that the west should be doing as much as possible to help Ukraine get domestic Sapsan/HRIM-2 production online. Do you think actions like these would carry the same escalatory risk? To my mind, there might be some room for plausible deniability there, and also of course doing so doesn't drain US stocks of GMLRS and ATACMS.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:15:42 PM EST
[#6]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
NSFW.

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Damn!
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:22:32 PM EST
[#7]
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Originally Posted By Jaehaerys:

Thanks. Follow-up question: You mentioned above that we could hypothetically conduct a technology transfer to significantly increase the effectiveness of Ukrainian long range strike drones. Personally, I've thought for a while that the west should be doing as much as possible to help Ukraine get domestic Sapsan/HRIM-2 production online. Do you think actions like these would carry the same escalatory risk? To my mind, there might be some room for plausible deniability there, and also of course doing so doesn't drain US stocks of GMLRS and ATACMS.
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It's no different than what we have been doing this entire time except it has the added benefit of actually being more successful, but I could definitely see the political handwringing over support building deep strike capability....as absurd as it sounds.

While I can't really quantify it, I believe a lot of Ukrainian production capacity has been limited by things like power availability and deep attacks on facilities.  Pretty much everything they make needs to be optimized as much as possible, I don't think there is much more ability to grow.  Our hands off approach to their long range OWA production shows that we seem to be unwilling to do so, it's mostly privately sourced.  Iran and Russia have an extremely small potential for GPS jamming against their OWAs, and I think most of what's attributed to jamming really isn't. We could very easily enable that capability for Ukraine as well but for some reason we haven't.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:28:19 PM EST
[#8]
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol:


This makes perfect sense if you are afraid Trump will be elected and withdraw/reduce American support for Ukraine. By (finally) taking the gloves off, it makes it harder for Trump to step it back.
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Or...Russia had enough warning and time to move their shit out of range. We are being "led" by cowards and traitors. All Trump has to do is NOT play both sides of the conflict.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:31:06 PM EST
[#9]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


They also have the option of updating the fuel on tens of thousands of others.  With that said the US has effectively zero short and medium range systems so being able to spend 10-20x more per kill with significantly lower production rates isn't necessarily a feature.  Were watching why that is right now in multiple theaters.
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Originally Posted By daemon734:
Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:
Russia only has 4000 updated SAMs? The US has more PAC-2/3 than that (estimated) and it’s not nearly enough…


They also have the option of updating the fuel on tens of thousands of others.  With that said the US has effectively zero short and medium range systems so being able to spend 10-20x more per kill with significantly lower production rates isn't necessarily a feature.  Were watching why that is right now in multiple theaters.


The fuel isn’t their major problem, the fact that they can safely fire them at ground targets shows that. The bigger issue is a lot of their stuff isn’t particularly good and has a low Pk against most targets but particularly ballistic targets. Patriot is now certified for single round engagements and S-400 is getting smoked by ALCMs fired from inside their claimed maximum engagement range. They are going to need a deeper stockpile.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:39:47 PM EST
[#10]
❗️An extremely successful counterattack has been reported in the Kursk region, which allowed the recapture of the villages of Gordeyevka, Vnezapnoye, Viktorovka and Byakhovo, as well as part of the villages of Apanasovka and Snagost in the Korenevsky district.

The settlements are located in the northwestern part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces control zone, and it was there that the enemy had previously tried to break through along the road to Glushkovo in order to finally force the Russian Armed Forces to leave the Glushkovsky district, but was stopped.

There have been no objective confirmations from the ground so far.

Military Informant

https://t.me/milinfolive/130291




A column of armor from the 51st Airborne Regiment breaks into the village of Snagost in the Kursk region. The tank is the first, followed by a BMD with anti-drone visors.

Judging by the footage, the enemy did not have serious defenses or cover with FPV drones in the village, which allowed the paratroopers to break right into the village without suffering any losses in armored vehicles.

Today it was reported that the Marines, together with the paratroopers, carried out an extremely successful offensive in the border area of ​​the Kursk region, which resulted in several villages being liberated in the Korenevsky district.

Military Informant

https://t.me/milinfolive/130301



The result of today's offensive by the 51st and 56th Airborne Regiments, as well as the 155th Marine Brigade, on populated areas of the Kursk region that were under enemy control. Map @z_arhiv

Vishnevka and Krasnooktyabrskoye will probably also soon return to our control.

Informant

https://t.me/infomil_live/9984

Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:40:53 PM EST
[#11]
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Originally Posted By Jaehaerys:

I think it's more likely the inverse. I've long suspected that the reason why the US has restricted Ukraine's ability to strike within Russian territory with PGMs is due a desire to maintain a step on the escalation ladder to punish Russia with. That might've (and likely was, IMO) been part of an attempt to get Russia to not do things like buy SRBMs from Iran, buy drones from China, arm the Houthis, etc. Now that Russia has at least partially done so, we've taken a step up on the escalation ladder in return.
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It failed.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:42:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734] [#12]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:


The fuel isn’t their major problem, the fact that they can safely fire them at ground targets shows that. The bigger issue is a lot of their stuff isn’t particularly good and has a low Pk against most targets but particularly ballistic targets. Patriot is now certified for single round engagements and S-400 is getting smoked by ALCMs fired from inside their claimed maximum engagement range. They are going to need a deeper stockpile.
View Quote


The S300s used against ground targets have expired fuel, as the Russians prioritize new production over refurbishing old stock. That doesn't mean they can't start refurbing, they havent really had to.

They also don't that bigger stockpile if Ukraine doesn't have the depth of planes or missiles to affect it, which they don't.  ATACMS strikes are cool but a handful of launchers and a few missiles isn't going to move the needle long term, and it absolutely hasnt. Those missiles are absolutely slowing down. Patriot will start to slow as well, I'm surprised we've clung on this long.

Russia also doesn't have to waste their large systems on small targets, which they forced Ukraine to do and to a degree still are. Russia has multiple options on the table.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:44:25 PM EST
[#13]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

Damn!
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
NSFW.


Damn!


Every time I see shit like that I hear the dude saying "Welcome to Ukraine!"

That was at least five Russians that won't have to shoot themselves to do the needful.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:46:38 PM EST
[#14]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


I've said since the start I believe that the escalatory prohibitions were exactly that. We can barely keep up with they active players we have right now, we're absolutely fucked if missiles start showing up from elsewhere.  These SRBM's in my mind are just a sample of that, the transfers started around the time we toyed with letting UKR strike Russian targets. At that same time China started publicly showing pictures of thousands of OWAs they were about to ship straight to Russia. That mysteriously disappeared once the permissions for deep strikes on Russia ended.

At the end of the day we started talking tough recently about letting Ukraine strike Russia again, right after we told them we were going to stop providing GMLRS due to stockpile concerns.  I believe it's just a political shell game trying to appear strong without the consequences.  We're blade running just like Russia is.
View Quote

Why is the current situation preferable to Russia's allies having to step up their assistance? And what's there to prevent them from stepping up anytime they want besides it not being necessary right now?
It's hard for me to follow the logic of "if we help Ukraine more/ remove restrictions then the Axis will help the orcs more, then Ukraine will be toast". The corollary seems to be that the Western lackluster support is what prevents Ukraine defeat which seems to be self-contradictory.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:48:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: HIPPO] [#15]
Here is a little slice right from the source…
Russian state TV claims that Americans demonize Russia
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:51:41 PM EST
[#16]
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Originally Posted By fadedsun:


What they want to do with their old f16s?


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Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Egypt to purchase J-10 from China, to replace older F-16s.

https://nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/styles/desktop__1260_/public/main_images/J-10%20Fighter%20China.jpg?itok=ty64DEy5

Bad trend. In recent years China has been increasing its exports. They're pitching the FC-31 to a number of middle eastern countries as well, as those countries are prohibited from F-35 exports for the time being.


What they want to do with their old f16s?




Considering their ties with Russia and China, and how they want to balance things out between everyone I doubt they would give anything to Ukraine even if paid for.

While I also doubt it, Indonesia is buying Rafales and F-15EX. They have a fleet of 16 Su-27/Su-30s and 30 something F-16As that have been upgraded. Maybe the Europeans can work something out and purchase those if they retire some early.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 6:54:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734] [#17]
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Originally Posted By voyager3:

Why is the current situation preferable to Russia's allies having to step up their assistance? And what's there to prevent them from stepping up anytime they want besides it not being necessary right now?
It's hard for me to follow the logic of "if we help Ukraine more/ remove restrictions then the Axis will help the orcs more, then Ukraine will be toast". The corollary seems to be that the Western lackluster support is what prevents Ukraine defeat which seems to be self-contradictory.
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My opinion is that the time for stepping up was two years ago. Any meaningful increase in our ability will take several years once it starts, which for the most part it hasn't. That ship has mostly sailed outside of playing a war of attrition against China, Iran, and Russia that we would absolutely lose. We may still have a lot of patriots and PGM's, but when overlayed against our global commitments and threat OPLANs we are starting to crack. Europe was toast in any meaningful way a long time ago.

We can barely keep up with Ukraines air defense as is, and unfortunately the reality is they are on the defense and their success or failure hinges on that. All three adversaries have invested heavily in exploiting that exact gap of ours.

Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:06:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: GoldenMead] [#18]
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Originally Posted By voyager3:

Why is the current situation preferable to Russia's allies having to step up their assistance? And what's there to prevent them from stepping up anytime they want besides it not being necessary right now?
It's hard for me to follow the logic of "if we help Ukraine more/ remove restrictions then the Axis will help the orcs more, then Ukraine will be toast". The corollary seems to be that the Western lackluster support is what prevents Ukraine defeat which seems to be self-contradictory.
View Quote


I shared this option two years ago in the original Ukraine thread and it was not well received.

Think of Russia as Chinas proxy. China is the puppet master. Russia is soaking up the west’s inventory of munitions and equipment.  Russia with the help of China Iran and others is causing the west to burn up its ads such as the patriot interceptor.  Through Russia the west has burned through most of its stockpiles.  Russia is the perfect country to use in this endeavor. Its population can handle huge loses and Russia had a huge stockpile of munitions and equipment to throw into this.

Every time the West supplies Ukraine more at this point Russia’s allies just help more which they easily can do and it causes the west to burn through more munitions.  In 2022 the west should have went all in on helping Ukraine.

Now you throw in October 7th and the Houthis, the US is expending even more munitions.  This is all a wet dream for China and they had a hand in all of this.

Next up full scale war in the Middle East, then China makes it move in the West Pacific.

Edit:  India has also decided to ignore the west and is doing business with Russia.  They are even working with Russia to set up factories in India.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:07:30 PM EST
[#19]
🇷🇺🇺🇦 Chronicle of a special military operation
for September 10, 2024

Russian troops launched a series of UAV and missile strikes on various targets in enemy-controlled territory. The targets were military facilities and repair facilities of Ukrainian formations.

The enemy again launched about one hundred and fifty UAVs at Russian territory. Air defense systems intercepted 144 UAVs in eight regions, in Ramenskoye one civilian was killed and three were injured.

In the Kursk region, Russian troops launched a local counteroffensive in the Korenevsky district, engaging several settlements and, according to preliminary information, liberating Gordeyevka and Vnezapnoye.

In the Artemovsky direction, the Russian Armed Forces advanced west of Zheleznodorozhny (Zaliznyansky), dislodging the enemy from several forest belts east of the M-03 (E40) highway.

In the Aleksandro-Kalinovsky direction, Russian attack aircraft liberated another part of Kirovo (Pivnichnoye) and advanced on the eastern outskirts of Dzerzhinsk (Toretsk).

In the Yuzhnodonets direction, the Russian Armed Forces are also making progress. In the Georgievka-Pobeda area, several forest belts and at least one stronghold in a dried-up reservoir came under the control of Russian troops.


https://t.me/rybar/63413



🇷🇺🇺🇦 Kursk direction
situation by the end of September 10, 2024

In the Kursk direction, the Russian Armed Forces launched a counterattack in one of the front sections, liberating two settlements in less than a day and engaging in fighting in at least two more. Part of the AFU units on the section was threatened with encirclement, while the advanced groups of Russian troops continue their offensive both to the south and east.

🔻On the border of Glushkovsky and Korenevsky districts, units of the 155th Marine Brigade and the 51st Guards Parachute and Airborne Regiment have launched a counteroffensive at the Gordeevka-Snagost line.  

▪️ To the north of the latter, Russian paratroopers made a significant advance, taking control of the approaches to the village and entering its territory.

According to reports from the ground, Ukrainian formations have withdrawn some units from the village, but its current status is still unknown.

❗️ As a result of the successful actions of the AFU, there is a threat of encirclement of the enemy units located in the Krasnooktyabrskyi area and the nearby forest.

Already now the AFU command is facing a choice - to transfer reserves from another direction to hold positions in the Korenevsky district or to withdraw troops in order to avoid encirclement.

▪️ To the south, Russian attack aircraft knocked the AFU out of part of its positions in Apanasivka and its vicinity. Our sources do not confirm the complete liberation of the settlement, but in the light of successes in other areas, the situation of the Ukrainian formations defending there may become much more difficult in the near future.

▪️ In the vicinity of the tract on October 10, units of the Russian Armed Forces conducted a successful attack, knocking the AFU out of several positions in the vicinity of the settlement. It is not possible to assess the scale of the advance due to the lack of footage from the field.

▪️ Also, Russian troops in the course of a series of attacks knocked out the enemy from several positions to the north and south of Byakhovo, taking the enemy units there in a semi-envelopment.

At the moment, the village is rather in the “gray zone” and it is not possible to confirm information about its liberation.

▪️ Russian Armed Forces units liberated Vnezapnoye and Gordeevka, and also started fighting for Viktorovka. In the latter, according to local information, Ukrainian formations may still be present.

Nevertheless, they are also under the threat of semi-envelopment, which makes it likely that the village will soon come under the control of the Russian Armed Forces.

🔻The situation in Sujan district has not changed significantly. Ukrainian formations made several attacks in the area of Cherkasskaya Konopelka, Kamyshevka, Maryevka and Borok, but did not succeed.






🇷🇺🇺🇦 Massive Ukrainian drone raid
situation by 12pm, September 10, 2024

Last night, Ukrainian forces carried out a massive attack on Russian regions. Air defense forces intercepted 144 enemy drones in eight regions of the country, with no casualties.

▪️ The largest number of targets was destroyed in the airspace of the Bryansk Region - air defense forces shot down 72 drones. According to available data, no destruction or casualties were reported in the region.

▪️ In the Moscow region, AFU drones damaged two residential buildings in Ramenskoye. As a result of the explosion a civilian was killed and three more people were wounded.

The second strike hit the house on Vysokovoltnaya Street, where UAVs damaged several balconies on the ninth floor. Part of the wreckage of the drones fell near the building, the emergency services carried out demining.

More than 40 residents of the city are now staying in temporary accommodation centers, they are being provided with all the necessary assistance.

❗️The local authorities are assessing the damage and, according to the regional governor, have pledged to help restore all the facilities damaged in the raid.  

▪️ Thirteen enemy UAVs were intercepted in the airspace of the Tula region, some of the debris fell on the territory of one of the local fuel and energy facilities.

According to information from local authorities, the facility did not suffer serious damage and the technological process was not disrupted. No injuries were reported in the region as a result of the raid.

▪️ Drones were also intercepted over the territories of Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh, Lipetsk, Kaluga and Orel regions. Temporary flight restrictions were imposed at Domodedovo, Vnukovo, Zhukovsky and Kazan airports. Damage and casualties were reportedly avoided in the above regions.






🇷🇺🌗 The news of the capture of a native of Uzbekistan who was taking photos of military facilities in the interests of the Kyiv regime is not at all surprising. Their use by enemy intelligence was a matter of time, as we mentioned a year and a half ago.

With the uncontrolled influx of migrants in the country, a whole layer of alien and extremely disloyal elements has actually formed, creating parallel structures to the state. This has opened up huge opportunities for the enemy to recruit and subsequently create entire networks of agents.

So far, everything is mostly reduced to fixing the results of strikes and surveying strategic sites on assignment. But who's to say that Kiev won't want to try to repeat what happened in Crocus in the spring or organize migrant riots and demonstrations?

Tightening migration policy today and rethinking outdated Soviet narratives is not a whim. It is a question of the country's security and, in the long term, the survival of the state in principle.

Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:20:27 PM EST
[#20]
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Originally Posted By GoldenMead:
Think of Russia as Chinas proxy. China is the puppet master. Russia is soaking up the west’s inventory of munitions and equipment.  Russia with the help of China Iran and others is causing the west to burn up its ads such as the patriot interceptor.  Through Russia the west has burned through most of its stockpiles.  Russia is the perfect country to use in this endeavor. Its population can handle huge loses and Russia had a huge stockpile of munitions and equipment to throw into this.
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I don’t think there’s any broad category where we’ve used “most” of our stockpile. If you narrow it to DPICM, perhaps.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:21:45 PM EST
[#21]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:


I don’t think there’s any broad category where we’ve used “most” of our stockpile. If you narrow it to DPICM, perhaps.
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I think “majority” would of been a better word.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:22:17 PM EST
[#22]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


The S300s used against ground targets have expired fuel, as the Russians prioritize new production over refurbishing old stock. That doesn't mean they can't start refurbing, they havent really had to.
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


The S300s used against ground targets have expired fuel, as the Russians prioritize new production over refurbishing old stock. That doesn't mean they can't start refurbing, they havent really had to.

Refurbishing 30-40 year old missiles isn’t going to matter in a conflict with NATO as older missiles are poorly suited to engaging modern aircraft. And in particular those older missiles are basically useless for missile defense.

They also don't that bigger stockpile if Ukraine doesn't have the depth of planes or missiles to affect it, which they don't.  ATACMS strikes are cool but a handful of launchers and a few missiles isn't going to move the needle long term, and it absolutely hasnt. Those missiles are absolutely slowing down. Patriot will start to slow as well, I'm surprised we've clung on this long.

Russia has probably fired hundreds of long range SAMs and lost hundreds on the ground. They’ve lost a single digit percentage of SAM batteries. Not great, not meaningless either.

Russia also doesn't have to waste their large systems on small targets, which they forced Ukraine to do and to a degree still are. Russia has multiple options on the table.

If the US was a party this would have been mitigated through air strikes on industry, depots and ADA units in the field.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:23:51 PM EST
[#23]
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Originally Posted By GoldenMead:


I think “majority” would have been a better word.
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I think that’s an overstatement also. A “meaningful quantity” would be very accurate.

Had the administration secured funding to substantially grow production and moved aggressively to create favorable conditions for a settlement two years ago we would be in a much stronger place.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:24:06 PM EST
[#24]
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:24:36 PM EST
[#25]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:


I don’t think there’s any broad category where we’ve used “most” of our stockpile. If you narrow it to DPICM, perhaps.
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You imply our stockpile is committed in it's entirety to Ukraine, it is not by any large percentage. The reality is that we have it for a lot of reasons and Ukraine is just one of them.  The stockpile we are depleting is the available munitions that don't put us in a critical risk assumption dilemma with regard to our other threats and commitments.  In some areas we are already there.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:27:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734] [#26]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:

Refurbishing 30-40 year old missiles isn’t going to matter in a conflict with NATO as older missiles are poorly suited to engaging modern aircraft. And in particular those older missiles are basically useless for missile defense.


Russia has probably fired hundreds of long range SAMs and lost hundreds on the ground. They’ve lost a single digit percentage of SAM batteries. Not great, not meaningless either.


If the US was a party this would have been mitigated through air strikes on industry, depots and ADA units in the field.
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:

Refurbishing 30-40 year old missiles isn’t going to matter in a conflict with NATO as older missiles are poorly suited to engaging modern aircraft. And in particular those older missiles are basically useless for missile defense.


Russia has probably fired hundreds of long range SAMs and lost hundreds on the ground. They’ve lost a single digit percentage of SAM batteries. Not great, not meaningless either.


If the US was a party this would have been mitigated through air strikes on industry, depots and ADA units in the field.


All of that is irrelevant  as Russia is in a conflict with Ukraine, not NATO.

A larger direct conflict brings Iran and China to the table, not just Russia, and those issues would be resolved.


Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:

I think that’s an overstatement also. A “meaningful quantity” would be very accurate.

Had the administration secured funding to substantially grow production and moved aggressively to create favorable conditions for a settlement two years ago we would be in a much stronger place.


Maybe so, except they didn't. So we aren't.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:30:38 PM EST
[#27]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


You imply our stockpile is committed in it's entirety to Ukraine, it is not by any large percentage. The reality is that we have it for a lot of reasons and Ukraine is just one of them.  The stockpile we are depleting is the available munitions that don't put us in a critical risk assumption dilemma with regard to our other threats and commitments.  In some areas we are already there.
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I did not imply that. I stated that I don’t think (or we don’t have reason to believe) that our stockpile of anything has been halved or more.

I agree that we’ve reduced our ability to defend ourselves. The slow speed with which the administration has taken action on production is unforgivable. From the invasion of Ukraine (the demand signal) to now has been 60% of the length of the Second World War (US perspective).
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:31:54 PM EST
[#28]
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:32:04 PM EST
[#29]
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


All of that is irrelevant  as Russia is in a conflict with Ukraine, not NATO.

A larger direct conflict brings Iran and China to the table, not just Russia, and those issues would be resolved.
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Originally Posted By daemon734:


All of that is irrelevant  as Russia is in a conflict with Ukraine, not NATO.

A larger direct conflict brings Iran and China to the table, not just Russia, and those issues would be resolved.

I’m not talking about their viability against Ukraine but about the weakness of Russia relative to NATO at present.



Maybe so, except they didn't. So we aren't.

Don’t blame me I voted for the other guy.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:37:33 PM EST
[#30]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:

I’m not talking about their viability against Ukraine but about the weakness of Russia relative to NATO at present.

Don’t blame me I voted for the other guy.
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So the NATO alliance is grouped together,  but we will just ignore the obvious military collective Russia has built? If it were just Russia then your point would be worth something, but it's not.

Russia by itself was weak against NATO from day 1, so I'm not sure how any of that matters. They aren't rolling on NATO alone.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:40:54 PM EST
[#31]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:
I suspect Blinken is the hawk, Sullivan and Austin are biting pillows.
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I grudgingly admit that I haven't had much of a problem with Blinken. At times I've liked him.  Sullivan seems to be a product of the swamp -- he was phi beta kappa, summa cum laude, Rhodes scholar, Trumann scholarship (overeducated?) and then he went and got involved in the Hillary campaign.

Austin seems to follow orders. Makes sense.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:44:04 PM EST
[#32]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



I agree, I was thinking of using the ATACMS to hit a large storage site for these missiles as a worthy target, not individual launchers.  They are like a poor man's HIMARS, so I would be interested in how effective these would be if a few hundred missiles were supplied.
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Originally Posted By GoldenMead:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:





I hope that changes, because they are within range.


The Fath-360 missile has a short range like 80 miles tops.

Also what's objective with them? Are they going to use them to hit individual military pieces of equipment and are they even accurate enough for that? They are very mobile. I wonder if Iran sent enough trucks to launch many at a time. Are they going to have a 50% failure rate like Irans missiles it sent at Israel?

New phase of the war and plenty for us all to learn.

Edit: Last week the White House and pentagon made comments that Ukraine was just going to get a limited ATACMS going forward. I believe an article was posted here on it.  It seems to me hitting these missiles with a ATACM would be a waste of resources. Better to hit strategic sites with them imo.



I agree, I was thinking of using the ATACMS to hit a large storage site for these missiles as a worthy target, not individual launchers.  They are like a poor man's HIMARS, so I would be interested in how effective these would be if a few hundred missiles were supplied.

I've said this for years now but hitting SA-21/23 radars and fighter-bomber airfields should be the priority for ATACMS. Taking out their long range SAMs will make those Rooskies beyond nervous of losing this war. Their doctrine practically revolves around those range rings.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:53:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: theskuh] [#33]
Great, informative and non shit flinging posts here guys. Thanks
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 7:54:15 PM EST
[#34]
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:03:38 PM EST
[#35]
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:08:55 PM EST
[#36]
🤙Situation at Chasov Yar

At Chasov Yar, the paratroopers' further advance in the urban area is hampered by the high level of destruction of the city and the activity of enemy UAVs.

FPV operators destroyed several enemy dome cameras.

+ the enemy is driving in fresh forces.

+ the enemy is using aviation, bombing Bakhmut (Artemovsk)..


https://t.me/rusich_army/17053

Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:18:06 PM EST
[#37]
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:18:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: Capta] [#38]
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:



The old (LoBrau) thread was aggressively moderated by the mods in order to try to keep it on track because lots of people complained about people trolling or trying to derail the thread.  The moderation essentially took two forms.  One was to boot people who were just posting pro-Russian stuff.  The other was to avoid the thread being derailed by constant arguments about Trump, politics, etc.

Eventually, the new thread was created because too many people were unhappy with the strict moderation of the old thread.

Since then, the OP (LoBrau) of the old thread requested that aggressive moderation of the old thread ends, which we have been happy to implement.  Ultimately, nobody WANTED strict moderation to keep trolls out and to keep the thread from being derailed.  The mods HATE having to spent tons of time babysitting threads like this, and would much rather NOT have to deal with it.  The mods and staff are thrilled to NOT have to deal with it.

Unfortunately, by the time that word got out that mods were no longer aggressively moderating the old thread, I think most people had become accustomed to the new thread, and people never really returned to it.  It's a shame, and I would love to see it return to prominence.

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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By walkinginadangerzone:
Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:
Originally Posted By fervid_dryfire:
If my posting rights were reinstated I'd go back to that thread.  I still have a tab of it open, right next to this one.  Hope abounds for some unlocking to happen and activity there again- it's a 5,000-page thread!...it shouldn't go to waste.

Go see the thread now; it's mostly a ghost town.  

It was wrong to moderate that great thread into the ground- apparently some mods clearly don't appreciate the consequences when they make huge thread-wrecking decisions by taking things too far.  

Moderation powers should be wielded like a scalpel, not a freaking broadsword, or claymore.    

That's my rant; no poll incoming.  

Mods don't act without approval of staff, that's been stated on a number of occasions. I don't know why that thread was allowed to be literally moderated to death, but that's what happened. Keeping election talk out along with trolls was a good thing. But there was much more than that going on. The weird thing is that it wasn't always like that. The first 15-18 months of that thread went just fine with an occasional troll getting booted. Then something happened and it completely changed. Oh well.

I still think that thread stands as an excellent comprehensive resource for the first 18 months of the 2022 invasion. It's too bad it can't be catalogued and indexed with a table of contents. I wonder if Subnet or Goatboy could extract the entire thread and make an archive of it. It would be great to do topical searches of it. Heck, I'd like to find one of the songs that got posted in early 2022.



You'll asked for it to be moderated more heavily. You'll got what you'll wanted, even if it was unknowingly asking for a safe space.



The old (LoBrau) thread was aggressively moderated by the mods in order to try to keep it on track because lots of people complained about people trolling or trying to derail the thread.  The moderation essentially took two forms.  One was to boot people who were just posting pro-Russian stuff.  The other was to avoid the thread being derailed by constant arguments about Trump, politics, etc.

Eventually, the new thread was created because too many people were unhappy with the strict moderation of the old thread.

Since then, the OP (LoBrau) of the old thread requested that aggressive moderation of the old thread ends, which we have been happy to implement.  Ultimately, nobody WANTED strict moderation to keep trolls out and to keep the thread from being derailed.  The mods HATE having to spent tons of time babysitting threads like this, and would much rather NOT have to deal with it.  The mods and staff are thrilled to NOT have to deal with it.

Unfortunately, by the time that word got out that mods were no longer aggressively moderating the old thread, I think most people had become accustomed to the new thread, and people never really returned to it.  It's a shame, and I would love to see it return to prominence.


Unfortunately this is not an accurate representation of events.  As the issue is now in public discussion by members and staff, I take it we can be candid.  This is the full story about what happened and why:

This all started because at the time, progress of the US Congressional aid bill was under discussion, with a relative handful of Republicans obstructing aid.  Obviously, if the outcome of the US aid bill is likely to determine the outcome of the war, it is pertinent to the thread.  I feel confident in saying that the large majority of posters, even Trump supporters, were in favor of discussing the issue and even holding Republican politicians accountable for their positions on this matter.  Then on about page 5380, a moderator posted the following:

”The topic, from the beginning of this thread,  has been current events of the War in Ukraine. It has been moderated that way from the beginning.  It will continue to be.  Please keep your posts on topic.”

This was not true.  The thread had never been moderated like that; aid topics and aid politics were discussed from the very beginning - Javelin, NLAW, tanks, F-16s Patriots, money, and so on.

The moderator then immediately started deleting posts left and right, and issuing account warnings.  As to the actual reason this started happening, soon after his initial redefinition of what could be discussed, he posted the following:

“This thread from the beginning has been about the Ukraine/Russia War, and in-theater events…
Now, because many want the congressional bill passed, it's what some want to argue about.   There have been a bunch of anti-republican, anti-trump, domestic border, comments posted around this issue.”

The real reason behind the new policy is in large font above.

Any discussion or even mention of the aid bill, even to the extent of linking an article where the aid bill was mentioned tangentially, resulted in posts deleted, warnings, and bans.  The moderator even edited posts to remove mentions of the aid bill from within larger articles posted which were not about the aid bill.  He claimed that “any mention of aid is off topic.”  HOWEVER:

At precisely the same time he started this campaign, three well-known “fuck Ukrainers” came in and engaged in a multi-day, multi-page thread slide about how aid was too expensive, the Ukrainians were misusing/stealing it anyway, it was all wasted, and on and on.  This was apparently “on topic”.  None of those posts were deleted, no one was warned or banned, and it continued to be treated by the moderator as “on topic” to criticize the idea of US/Western aid to Ukraine.

Another issue which was (and still is) discussed frequently is the Biden administration’s opposition to/slow-walking of aid deemed “escalatory”, his cowardice and incompetence regarding the inadequate level of support - just enough to keep Ukraine alive, and so on.  This was mentioned so often that it’s a truism.  And that was also “on topic” and was not deleted or warnings or bans issued.

There was a clear double standard of which aid topics could be discussed.  Argued against giving any aid at all - on topic.  Reflected poorly on the Biden administration - on topic.  Reflected poorly on the Republican House/Trump - off-topic, under penalty of deletion, account-warning, and thread-banning.

By the effective end of the Ukraine thread, at least a couple dozen members had been thread-banned “for off-topic posts about aid”, and who knows how many account warnings had been issued.  Some people were thread-banned with no warning issued, and 1 or 2 members (M35Ben) were actually site-banned for calling out the moderator on this policy.

Myself and other contributors like Prime and Almighty Tallest tried to save the thread to the very end, over the course of many weeks.  The first time I wrote staff about the issues (which staff member that is I will not name, however, you would know him) I was flat-out ignored.  No answer.  The second time (after I was thread-banned) I at least got an answer.  Unfortunately, the long and short of that answer was “the moderator is doing what we want him to do.”  Again, staff was made *well aware* of how the thread was being moderated, and that it was destroying the thread.  Yet it continued.

It wasn’t frank and open discussion on a tough topic that destroyed the Ukraine thread - it was mod/staff effort to prevent and slant that discussion that destroyed the thread.

I even spoke to the thread OP, who was unaware that the thread was being moderated in that manner, did not support it, and didn’t want his thread to end.  The staff told him “he didn’t have a say in how the thread was moderated.”  The OP told me this personally.  Only after the thread was gutted and abandoned to trolls did any alleged change in moderation occur - which would hard to gauge since posting had fallen to nearly zero and a large number of regular posters were already banned.

From talking to several people who shall be nameless (including both posters and some mods and/or staff) who had gotten various pieces of information from mods/staff, I was able to get some more insight into the situation.  Basically, mods and/or staff took the opinion that, because for two years they had “protected” the thread against the GD “fuck Ukraine” trolls, that they had a say over what could be talked about, and if they didn’t like what was said, then they had the right to censor it and issue warnings and bans against members.

The 5500-page epic Ukraine thread was intentionally killed by mods/staff 100% in an attempt to shield Trump and a handful of Republicans from discussion/criticism over the aid issue.

This is why the OP is written with an extensive and explicit list of “what is on topic” and “what the thread is/is not rules.”  We did not want to give mods/staff any reason to claim they had a say over the discussion because they were “protecting” the thread from trolls, and we did not want staff to be able to claim that something was “off topic” because they didn’t like it politically.

This is why I will not allow ON TOPIC criticism of Trump, Biden, or anyone else to be driven out of the thread because someone - anyone - doesn’t like it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:22:46 PM EST
[#39]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
ISW assessment for September 10th.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-10-2024
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I feel like shit tonight, will check it out tomorrow
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:24:09 PM EST
[#40]
I agree with Truzman--I don't see Sinwar taking the deal.  He already rejected it once about 6 months ago.

Israel proposed giving Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar safe passage out of Gaza in exchange for the group freeing the hostages it holds and giving up control of the strip.

"I'm ready to provide safe passage to Sinwar, his family, whoever wants to join him," Israel hostage envoy Gal Hirsch said in an interview Tuesday in the Bloomberg News Washington bureau.

"We want the hostages back. We want demilitarization, de-radicalization of course - a new system that will manage Gaza."

He reiterated that Israel would also be willing to release prisoners it holds as part of any deal.
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Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:25:30 PM EST
[#41]
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:

I feel like shit tonight, will check it out tomorrow
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Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
ISW assessment for September 10th.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-10-2024

I feel like shit tonight, will check it out tomorrow



It's one of those days, some bad news and such that crops up until more positive news arrives at some other point so it can wait for tomorrow.  Hope you feel better soon man.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:29:26 PM EST
[#42]
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 8:35:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea] [#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



It's one of those days, some bad news and such that crops up until more positive news arrives at some other point so it can wait for tomorrow.  Hope you feel better soon man.
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Appreciate that gonna order a pizza 🍕

Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:13:38 PM EST
[#44]
I’m wishing I hadn’t turned on the debate.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:17:23 PM EST
[#45]

Twitter link
The commander of Hamas's Tel Sultan Battalion in the Rafah Brigade was killed in an Israeli drone strike several weeks ago.

Mahmoud Hamdan was killed alongside three company commanders in the Tel Sultan Battalion, the IDF says.

Additional strikes killed several more top commanders in the battalion, along with dozens of operatives.

The IDF says Hamdan took a "significant part" in planning the October 7 onslaught, and was involved in other attacks amid the ongoing war.
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Attachment Attached File

Attachment Attached File

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:19:43 PM EST
[#46]
Daily Ukraine map thread for Tuesday 10th September 2024

Highlights: One of the busiest days we've had in a long time with no good news for Ukraine, numerous Russian advances on many sections marked today:  

Firstly, Kursk - Russian mechanized forces counter attacked from the Koronevo direction and reached Snagost, with rumoured attacks elsewhere in the area. We have changed a lot on the west flank to 'disputed' until it clears up over the next few days.

In the Vuhledar direction, Russian forces raised the flag over Vodiane and advanced through the town. It is expected Pivdennodonbaska mine 3 will be captured any day now.

In the Krasnohorivka direction, Russian forces advanced 4 kilometers and raised a flag at the end of the settlement

In the Selydove direction, Russian forces advanced west of Marynivka and into west Mykhailivka. There are reported advances into Ukrainsk, but we have seen no geolocations from the area as yet.

In the Pokrovsk direction, Russian forces raised a flag near the center of Hrodivka, showing a small advance there.

In the Bakhmut direction, Russian forces are shelled on west side of the canal near Kalinina, and a flag is raised in west Klishchiivka - which we had marked as Russian controlled anyway.

In the Spirne direction, Russian forces raised a flag - this area has gone back and forth  a few times recently, so it's difficult to tell if it's recent or one of those times.
Map: https://uacontrolmap.com






































































































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1/2
While a very small world tirelessly exposes its heterogeneous and daily superpositions of language or other "supposed" depth of mind which will remain to be decided (!) , I have been working on another real subject for two days.




2/2
In order to do a more serious geographical historical follow-up on the subject of the units (primarily Ukrainian) by respective allocation number, I undertook to make the correlation between the DATA of @Militarylandnet and those of @UAControlMap.
The thing remains arduous, I admit.

Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:32:39 PM EST
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By theskuh:
Great, informative and non shit flinging posts here guys. Thanks
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Me, too.  I learn a lot here, and that’s highly valued.  



Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:35:53 PM EST
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GoldenMead:
I bet none of them want to allow ukraine to strike deeper into Russia.  I bet someone in the Pentagon or Intel community said we need to allow Ukraine to end this and that the US does not an infinite supply of arms to give away.  Reality is starting to hit hopefully.
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We know that the administration doesn't want to see Russia defeated. But they can't be seen as hanging Ukraine out for the vultures. Feeding them enough to keep from losing is costing a LOT of stuff, especially expensive and hard to replace stuff like PAC interceptors. Even the dumb stuff like artillery is adversely affecting our readiness, which compounds over time as training keeps getting deferred and deferred. The administration is really in between a rock and a hard place with no good options. And Putin put them there.
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:41:59 PM EST
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By planemaker:

My read on Blinken is he's a moron. I don't think anyone in this (mal)adiministration has a clue and they seem focused on our foreign policy should be that which is least likely to disrupt the status quo until after the election. Disgusting.
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Originally Posted By planemaker:
Originally Posted By HIPPO:
Originally Posted By Ike838:
" I'm  totally  into  bloody prolonged  warfare, but not into actually trying to win the war  Seems icky"  Sec Blinken's Match dot Com profile.
I suspect Blinken is the hawk, Sullivan and Austin are biting pillows.

My read on Blinken is he's a moron. I don't think anyone in this (mal)adiministration has a clue and they seem focused on our foreign policy should be that which is least likely to disrupt the status quo until after the election. Disgusting.

What if Blinken is a moron, but also the smartest one in the room?
Link Posted: 9/10/2024 9:55:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu] [#50]
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

It failed.
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Originally Posted By Jaehaerys:
I think it's more likely the inverse. I've long suspected that the reason why the US has restricted Ukraine's ability to strike within Russian territory with PGMs is due a desire to maintain a step on the escalation ladder to punish Russia with. That might've (and likely was, IMO) been part of an attempt to get Russia to not do things like buy SRBMs from Iran, buy drones from China, arm the Houthis, etc. Now that Russia has at least partially done so, we've taken a step up on the escalation ladder in return.

It failed.

But it hasn't. China is providing aid, but limited. We're providing aid, but limited. Either China on the US could decisively end this war for our preferred proxy with large, direct involvement.

I hadn't really gelled on the idea that this isn't a proxy war against Russia, Russia is just a proxy themselves. Others already posted it long ago in other words. I had said Russia ends as a Chinese vassal, but they're already there.

Russia gets (most of) Ukraine and the Baltics, China gets Taiwan, the axis of evil is happy and the era of US hegemony is 100% over.
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