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Posted: 9/11/2024 11:32:40 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Triggered-143.gif/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Triggered-143.gif A lot of red lines everywhere and all of them are getting walked all over on a daily basis. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 11:40:54 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Shit decisions for extended periods of time, again not trying to politicize the thread but Team Obama with help from Rand Paul type GOP support for the 2011 BCR cratered defense budgets in Obama’s 2nd term |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 11:48:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: Mal_means_bad]
[#3]
Chinese troops appear to have left mocking graffiti at camp site found 37 miles inside of rugged Indian province Images have surfaced on social media suggesting Chinese troops were active deep inside a contested territory administered by India but claimed by Beijing. The evidence indicates People's Liberation Army troops had penetrated at least 60 kilometers (37 miles) into Arunachal Pradesh, a northeastern Indian state that China calls "South Tibet." The region is one of the most hotly contested areas in the India-China border feud, which traces its roots back to the British colonial era. The 1962 Sino-Indian war, sparked by these border disputes, saw China temporarily advance into Arunachal Pradesh and Aksai Chin, another disputed region further west. The Indian and Chinese Foreign Ministries did not immediately respond to written requests for comment. The recent photos, shared by NewsFy, a news outlet based in Arunachal's capital, Itanagar, show remnants of campfires, discarded cans, and food packaging, along with graffiti in the Kapapu area of Arunachal Pradesh's Anjaw district. The graffiti reportedly included the word "China" in both English and Chinese characters, alongside the year 2024 a clear indication of the incursion's recent occurrence. The images also featured a five-pointed star, a symbol commonly associated with the Chinese Communist Party. Sources cited by the news portal estimated the site had been abandoned about a week before the discovery. Tensions between China and India have remained high since a deadly melee in Galwan Valley in 2020, in India's sparsely populated Ladakh region, which resulted in the deaths of 20 Indian soldiers and an unknown number of Chinese troops. The clash took place along the Line of Actual Control, the de facto border established after the 1962 conflict. Subsequent hand-to-hand clashes took place along the border in 2021 and 2022, though no fatalities were reported. Both countries responded by deploying significant numbers of troops and weapons platforms to border regions and building infrastructure to enhance military mobility. Since the Galwan incident, China and India have held 21 rounds of commander-level talks, aiming to ease tensions and achieve disengagement at hotspots along the border. Despite these efforts, progress has been limited. Since 2021, the U.S. State Department has explicitly supported India's claim over Arunachal Pradesh amid efforts by Washington and New Delhi to strengthen ties to respond to China's growing assertiveness in the Indo-Pacific region. "We strongly oppose any unilateral attempts to advance territorial claims by incursions or encroachments, military or civilian, across the Line of Actual Control," State Department principal deputy spokesperson Vedant Patel said during a press conference earlier this year. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 11:52:35 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: US really can't spare air defense assets, there's some equipment we can provide that might cost money to transfer but wouldn't impact us severely if we became involved in a major war but air defense is certainly not that. But Ukraine needs air defense. This is the pickle amd why Europe better use this window to pick up the pace on production. To me I picture it as needing a pez dispenser scale of production output rather than a 15% increase or even a 50% increase compared to 2022 rates. So when I hear X country is doing X my barometer is how does that compare to a pez dispenser. I'm talking Simpsons Duff brewery mass production. How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Obviously, I'm not in the decision making centers. But I'm thinking much of the Air Defense theory in USAF is things like this:  I mean, we do see jets shooting the shit out of drones and cruise missiles with Israel vs Iran, Red Sea and Ukraine. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 11:55:52 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: US really can't spare air defense assets, there's some equipment we can provide that might cost money to transfer but wouldn't impact us severely if we became involved in a major war but air defense is certainly not that. But Ukraine needs air defense. This is the pickle amd why Europe better use this window to pick up the pace on production. To me I picture it as needing a pez dispenser scale of production output rather than a 15% increase or even a 50% increase compared to 2022 rates. So when I hear X country is doing X my barometer is how does that compare to a pez dispenser. I'm talking Simpsons Duff brewery mass production. How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Because our air defense doctrine primarily relies on fighter jets not surface based air defense systems. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 11:59:44 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: The question of how that intent was implemented, and whether it could have been done differently, is a completely different question. At a certain point, now it is just water under the bridge, because everyone seems to have moved onto this thread. If people like this better, despite the occasional detours into politics, and the few pro-Russian trolls who continually shit in the thread - then that's a fantastic win-win, because now the mods don't have to deal with the onerous and thankless task of trying to keep a thread like this on track and free of distractions. So most people seem to be happier now with this solution, and the mods are definitely happier.  
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:02:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#7]
Corrected report in this tweet.
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:06:49 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Somebody posted a tweet a bunch of pages ago that was alleged to be a Ukrainian diplomat saying they might be forced to develop nuclear weapons. I can't find any substantiation for that tweet whatsoever. Here's some other relevant material, however. https://www.aei.org/op-eds/ukraine-needs-nuclear-weapons-after-the-russia-war-is-over/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/will-putins-invasion-spur-nuclear-proliferation/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/16/ukraine-may-seek-nuclear-weapons-if-left-out-of-nato-diplomat https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/opinion/the-brief-brace-for-nuclear-proliferation/ I would be fine with a nuclear Ukraine as a counter to Russian threats. Russia, China, NK, and soon Iran have nukes, the cat is out of the bag, and the countries threatened by those countries should have the ultimate deterrent and the means to deliver it to their neighbors. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:07:13 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: US really can’t spare air defense assets, there’s some equipment we can provide that might cost money to transfer but wouldn’t impact us severely if we became involved in a major war but air defense is certainly not that. But Ukraine needs air defense. This is the pickle amd why Europe better use this window to pick up the pace on production. To me I picture it as needing a pez dispenser scale of production output rather than a 15% increase or even a 50% increase compared to 2022 rates. So when I hear X country is doing X my barometer is how does that compare to a pez dispenser. I’m talking Simpsons Duff brewery mass production. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Ukraine is probably not soaking up US stockpiles critical for a large war with China based on what we have sent. Although I seriously doubt the US has enough to begin with. Maybe more importantly, Ukraine is soaking up American willingness to get involved in foreign wars and or our limited "give a fuck" bandwidth. China will benefit. In 2022, the US could have gotten the disired outcome (stopping Russia cold, maybe pushing them back, and convincing them to stop trying and negotiate) just by sending our spare M1 Abrams and Bradleys etc rotting in desert storage. In 2023 we needed to send Patriots, HIMARS and eventually ATACMS. Now, in 2024, we need to send all our spare Patriots, PGM's etc. and it is far too little. Next, along the escalation management ladder, we will need to send actual US jets (not Norwegian junk) and then after that US ground troops. or This whole fucking mess is a textbook example for turning a border war into a regional conflict and possibly global war through escalation management. FJB!!! US really can’t spare air defense assets, there’s some equipment we can provide that might cost money to transfer but wouldn’t impact us severely if we became involved in a major war but air defense is certainly not that. But Ukraine needs air defense. This is the pickle amd why Europe better use this window to pick up the pace on production. To me I picture it as needing a pez dispenser scale of production output rather than a 15% increase or even a 50% increase compared to 2022 rates. So when I hear X country is doing X my barometer is how does that compare to a pez dispenser. I’m talking Simpsons Duff brewery mass production. Old AVENGER and HAWK stuff won't hurt us, and may actually save $ since it avoids Demil costs on STINGER and HAWK. The HAWKs still floating around in US inventory were to support foreign users in any case, and there are huge lots of STINGER that were going to have to be demilled anyway. The real issue is with resupplying PATRIOT, as we have likely gone through the stuff that is at/nearing the end of service life and not candidates to upgrade and/or stuff that has non-critical niche capabilities and/or has been superseded by later variants. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:18:32 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: US really can’t spare air defense assets, there’s some equipment we can provide that might cost money to transfer but wouldn’t impact us severely if we became involved in a major war but air defense is certainly not that. But Ukraine needs air defense. This is the pickle amd why Europe better use this window to pick up the pace on production. To me I picture it as needing a pez dispenser scale of production output rather than a 15% increase or even a 50% increase compared to 2022 rates. So when I hear X country is doing X my barometer is how does that compare to a pez dispenser. I’m talking Simpsons Duff brewery mass production. How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Priorities. Air Superiority ain't cheap and until very recently, Defensive Counter-Air (DCA) claimed they could provide 85% of the required Air Defense coverage for the forseeable future. There was pushback, particularly from the Army ADA and Navy AEGIS communities; however, it briefed well and airplanes look cooler! 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:18:39 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Obviously, I'm not in the decision making centers. But I'm thinking much of the Air Defense theory in USAF is things like this: https://media.defense.gov/2007/Jul/30/2000465452/2000/2000/0/070713-F-8820I-124.JPG I mean, we do see jets shooting the shit out of drones and cruise missiles with Israel vs Iran, Red Sea and Ukraine. Different schools of thought are debating that but the problem for US aircraft in the Pacific is air refueling capacity https://warontherocks.com/2023/04/in-defense-of-denial-why-deterring-china-requires-new-airpower-thinking/  
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:20:54 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Old AVENGER and HAWK stuff won't hurt us, and may actually save $ since it avoids Demil costs on STINGER and HAWK. The HAWKs still floating around in US inventory were to support foreign users in any case, and there are huge lots of STINGER that were going to have to be demilled anyway. The real issue is with resupplying PATRIOT, as we have likely gone through the stuff that is at/nearing the end of service life and not candidates to upgrade and/or stuff that has non-critical niche capabilities and/or has been superseded by later variants. Yeah in my mind I’m only counting latest Patriot, THAAD, Aegis kinda stuff not Cold War era stock |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:36:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Different schools of thought are debating that but the problem for US aircraft in the Pacific is air refueling capacity https://warontherocks.com/2023/04/in-defense-of-denial-why-deterring-china-requires-new-airpower-thinking/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_2573-3319373.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_2572-3319374.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Obviously, I'm not in the decision making centers. But I'm thinking much of the Air Defense theory in USAF is things like this: https://media.defense.gov/2007/Jul/30/2000465452/2000/2000/0/070713-F-8820I-124.JPG I mean, we do see jets shooting the shit out of drones and cruise missiles with Israel vs Iran, Red Sea and Ukraine. Different schools of thought are debating that but the problem for US aircraft in the Pacific is air refueling capacity https://warontherocks.com/2023/04/in-defense-of-denial-why-deterring-china-requires-new-airpower-thinking/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_2573-3319373.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_2572-3319374.jpg Yeah, ground air defense platforms are obviously a must, in any war making portfolio. But I don't believe it should be a major part of it. Because it's just a matter of fact that it is much easier, cheaper and faster to produce missiles than it is to produce interceptors. You are NEVER going to win the battle of speed of production and production costs against the attacker. I think in this case the Offense is the best defense. I think you are much better served to spend a lot on ISR, and targeting the other guy's missile platforms versus trying to play the Air defense game to the hilt and pretty quickly run out of interceptors no matter how much effort you put into it. "Shoot archers. Not arrows" |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:37:04 PM EST
[#14]
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:41:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Yeah, ground air defense platforms are obviously a must, in any war making portfolio. But I don't believe it should be a major part of it. Because it's just a matter of fact that it is much easier, cheaper and faster to produce missiles than it is to produce interceptors. You are NEVER going to win the battle of speed of production and production costs against the attacker. I think in this case the Offense is the best defense. I think you are much better served to spend a lot on ISR, and targeting the other guy's missile platforms versus trying to play the Air defense game to the hilt and pretty quickly run out of interceptors no matter how much effort you put into it. "Shoot archers. Not arrows" Well the DOD appears to be opting for ground in the Pacific for now https://www.airandspaceforces.com/guam-missile-defense-control-china/  https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Defense/U.S.-weighs-stationing-Patriot-air-defense-systems-in-Palau  https://www.pacificislandtimes.com/post/thaad-remote-launch-package-headed-to-rota-and-tinian-for-training-exercises   
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:43:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: Saltwater-Hillbilly]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Yeah in my mind I’m only counting latest Patriot, THAAD, Aegis kinda stuff not Cold War era stock Someday, in front of a hot, roaring fire with a adult beverage (preferably Artillery Punch) in hand, I will tell you the (mostly true) story of how the Air Defense Artillery and Field Artillery closely collaborated and managed to save ATACMS from the Air Force on several occasions over a 15-year period. One of the reasons the integration of ADA and FA into the Fires capability went so smoothly was that those two branches had a LOT of back to back time in a LOT of knife fights for over a decade before the formal functional integration! Also leads to how the FA managed to become a major player in both C-RAM and development of a Single Integrated Air Picture!
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:44:56 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Well the DOD appears to be opting for ground in the Pacific for now https://www.airandspaceforces.com/guam-missile-defense-control-china/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_2578-3319400.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Yeah, ground air defense platforms are obviously a must, in any war making portfolio. But I don't believe it should be a major part of it. Because it's just a matter of fact that it is much easier, cheaper and faster to produce missiles than it is to produce interceptors. You are NEVER going to win the battle of speed of production and production costs against the attacker. I think in this case the Offense is the best defense. I think you are much better served to spend a lot on ISR, and targeting the other guy's missile platforms versus trying to play the Air defense game to the hilt and pretty quickly run out of interceptors no matter how much effort you put into it. "Shoot archers. Not arrows" Well the DOD appears to be opting for ground in the Pacific for now https://www.airandspaceforces.com/guam-missile-defense-control-china/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_2578-3319400.jpg The answer isn't OR, the answer is "Yes to all of the above" |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:55:05 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Someday, in front of a hot, roaring fire with a adult beverage (preferably Artillery Punch) in hand, I will tell you the (mostly true) story of how the Air Defense Artillery and Field Artillery closely collaborated and managed to save ATACMS from the Air Force on several occasions over a 15-year period. One of the reasons the integration of ADA and FA into the Fires capability went so smoothly was that those two branches had a LOT of back to back time in a LOT of knife fights for over a decade before the formal functional integration! Also leads to how the FA managed to become a major player in both C-RAM and development of a Single Integrated Air Picture! I’ve actually wondered about that |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 12:59:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: The answer isn't OR, the answer is "Yes to all of the above" Correct, it’s every swinging dick and every damn thing you got, which unfortunately means we need a bunch of ground based ADA it’s not something that can be written off or ignored This all goes back to my often repeated - lax attitude post Cold War then Obama’s perpetual “combat is over shrink the military to the point it’s not viable and therefore war is prevented because it can’t be conducted” policy on top of GWOT and cemented by Biden’s at best flat but actually shrinking budgets after inflation. This is decades of domestic politics inflicting itself upon national defense and deterrence. It’s basically a fuck you and the horse you rode in on Ron Reagan mentality 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:29:04 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Obviously, I'm not in the decision making centers. But I'm thinking much of the Air Defense theory in USAF is things like this: https://media.defense.gov/2007/Jul/30/2000465452/2000/2000/0/070713-F-8820I-124.JPG I mean, we do see jets shooting the shit out of drones and cruise missiles with Israel vs Iran, Red Sea and Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By NEXT23: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: US really can't spare air defense assets, there's some equipment we can provide that might cost money to transfer but wouldn't impact us severely if we became involved in a major war but air defense is certainly not that. But Ukraine needs air defense. This is the pickle amd why Europe better use this window to pick up the pace on production. To me I picture it as needing a pez dispenser scale of production output rather than a 15% increase or even a 50% increase compared to 2022 rates. So when I hear X country is doing X my barometer is how does that compare to a pez dispenser. I'm talking Simpsons Duff brewery mass production. How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Obviously, I'm not in the decision making centers. But I'm thinking much of the Air Defense theory in USAF is things like this: https://media.defense.gov/2007/Jul/30/2000465452/2000/2000/0/070713-F-8820I-124.JPG I mean, we do see jets shooting the shit out of drones and cruise missiles with Israel vs Iran, Red Sea and Ukraine. The Air Force uses aircraft for air defense because ground-based ADA is the Army's role in our separation of responsibilities. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:29:17 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By klinc: A lot of red lines everywhere and all of them are getting walked all over on a daily basis. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By klinc: Originally Posted By HIPPO: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Triggered-143.gif/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Triggered-143.gif A lot of red lines everywhere and all of them are getting walked all over on a daily basis. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:31:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: Saltwater-Hillbilly]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: I’ve actually wondered about that Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Someday, in front of a hot, roaring fire with a adult beverage (preferably Artillery Punch) in hand, I will tell you the (mostly true) story of how the Air Defense Artillery and Field Artillery closely collaborated and managed to save ATACMS from the Air Force on several occasions over a 15-year period. One of the reasons the integration of ADA and FA into the Fires capability went so smoothly was that those two branches had a LOT of back to back time in a LOT of knife fights for over a decade before the formal functional integration! Also leads to how the FA managed to become a major player in both C-RAM and development of a Single Integrated Air Picture! I’ve actually wondered about that Without TOO much thread drift: 1) If you are in the business of shooting down incoming missiles, having a counterfire capability both saves interceptor missiles reduces engagement windows, as the enemy can't really launch missiles in multiple waves if their launcher systems are quickly turned into debris and wreckage scattered around a really big crater (or a whole bunch of smaller craters if they are closer) after the first shot. Digitally sending a 10-digit grid to the to the appropriate FA leadership/operators has a much faster "flash to bang" than sending it to the Air Force, as proven conclusively during the Desert Storm "SCUD hunts". Artillery interdiction of TBMs requires the FA have something with the legs to get there fast; plus, with the exception of a few VT fuze variants, FA counterfire really doesn't have major issues overcoming weather, camouflage, concealment, or poor visibility. 2) FA and ADA have a lot of radars and other detection high-resolution capabilities that tend to be looking into the sky, with engagement-level (Greater than 400 millisecond) update rates. If you link them, the coverage is awesome for both air detection/tracking and counterfire capability. FA also requires an Air Picture for S/A and digital airspace clearance only takes about 10 seconds, as opposed to 45 seconds to over a minute for current airspace clearance. AFATADS (the FA system) and FAADC2I (the ADA system) were always integrated, and are both embedded in the Fires Functional Network. Also, the ADA bubbas made sure that the FA (as well as Army Aviation) had a "seat at the table" relatively early in the process of developing both the Joint and Army Integrated Air Pictures, as meetings/negotiations tend to go better when you show up with an entourage that includes a few stray O6's with broad and varied experiences instead of just you and a wing dude/dudette.
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:34:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... We nuked SHORAD because the AF said they could manage short and medium range air defense. Missile technology has developed to the point where that is no longer a capability the air force was remotely postured to support, especially in a decentralized and dispersed environment like INDOPACOM. Once UAS became a significant part of that air defense picture the game was officially over. Group 2/3 UAS and the sheer saturation they are able to bring to the fight made SHORAD/CUAS, which functionally doesn't exist for us, one of the most important warfighting functions in MDO. Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Old AVENGER and HAWK stuff won't hurt us, and may actually save $ since it avoids Demil costs on STINGER and HAWK. The HAWKs still floating around in US inventory were to support foreign users in any case, and there are huge lots of STINGER that were going to have to be demilled anyway. The real issue is with resupplying PATRIOT, as we have likely gone through the stuff that is at/nearing the end of service life and not candidates to upgrade and/or stuff that has non-critical niche capabilities and/or has been superseded by later variants. Stingers started getting refurbed around 2016 when the push for SHORAD finally materialized. I had one my first trip to Syria in 2017. Avengers were pulled out of mothballs around 2021 and put all over CENTCOM once we realized we had no other kinetic options for the group 3 drones that were pretty consistently nailing us. Now, in 2024, we still have zero MANPAD or short range program of record outside of a handful of FS-LIDS/Coyote that were hastily slapped together and...well....marginally terrible. Stinger is the MTOE weapon for the already stood up SHORAD battalions as a surrogate for the M-SHORAD's Stinger Block II, which doesn't exist yet and keeps getting punted right. They run Avengers in it's place. Every Stinger we had in storage, which was all of them since we hadn't bought a new missile in at least 20 years, is on deck and going through life cycle extensions. I go to FCoE periodically and there are some real unhappy people there on a regular basis, exponentially more so than usual.  Attached FileOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Without TOO much thread drift: 1) If you are in the business of shooting down incoming missiles, having a counterfire capability both saves interceptor missiles reduces engagement windows, as the enemy can't really launch missiles in multiple waves if their launcher systems are quickly turned into debris and wreckage scattered around a really big crater (or a whole bunch of smaller craters if they are closer) after the first shot. Digitally sending a 10-digit grid to the to the appropriate FA leadership/operators has a much faster "flash to bang" than sending it to the Air Force, as proven conclusively during the Desert Storm "SCUD hunts". Artillery interdiction of TBMs requires the FA have something with the legs to get there fast; plus, with the exception of a few VT fuze variants, FA counterfire really doesn't have major issues overcoming weather, camouflage, concealment, or poor visibility. This is a large part of the concept of the MDTF, another reason why we need things like HIMARS and can't simply burn them wholesale. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:44:08 PM EST
[#24]
The U.S. is demanding a clear strategy from Zelensky regarding strikes against Russia before lifting restrictions, according to Bloomberg. During their visit to Kyiv, U.S. Secretary of State Blinken and UK Foreign Secretary Lammy sought a long-term plan from Zelensky for the coming year to better understand Ukraine's objectives. https://bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-11/us-wants-ukraine-to-detail-plan-before-allowing-russia-strikes |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:48:09 PM EST
[#25]
The State Duma is preparing an initiative to ban migrant workers from bringing their families
Volodin: ban on migrants to bring families will be supported by the majority of deputies MOSCOW, September 11 - RIA Novosti. The State Duma is preparing an initiative to ban labor migrants from bringing their families to Russia, most deputies will support it, State Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said in an interview with the TV channel "Russia 24". "We are preparing a legislative initiative, and there is an understanding that the majority of deputies will definitely support it, regardless of factional affiliation. This year, around July, we adopted quite strict norms, according to which all violators are expelled and then they are banned from entering the territory of our country. We believe that employers should be held more strictly responsible in this regard. At the same time, a person, having come to work himself, cannot still carry family members with him," Volodin said. https://ria.ru/20240911/gosduma-1972175024.html |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 1:52:38 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Stingers started getting refurbed around 2016 when the push for SHORAD finally materialized. I had one my first trip to Syria in 2017. Avengers were pulled out of mothballs around 2021 and put all over CENTCOM once we realized we had no other kinetic options for the group 3 drones that were pretty consistently nailing us. Now, in 2024, we still have zero MANPAD or short range program of record outside of a handful of FS-LIDS/Coyote that were hastily slapped together and...well....marginally terrible. Stinger is the MTOE weapon for the already stood up SHORAD battalions as a surrogate for the M-SHORAD's Stinger Block II, which doesn't exist yet and keeps getting punted right. Every Stinger we had in storage, which was all of them since we hadn't bought a new missile in at least 20 years, is on deck and going through life cycle extensions. I go to FCoE periodically and there are some real unhappy people there on a regular basis. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/45449/P_20180413_184058_jpg-3319450.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Old AVENGER and HAWK stuff won't hurt us, and may actually save $ since it avoids Demil costs on STINGER and HAWK. The HAWKs still floating around in US inventory were to support foreign users in any case, and there are huge lots of STINGER that were going to have to be demilled anyway. The real issue is with resupplying PATRIOT, as we have likely gone through the stuff that is at/nearing the end of service life and not candidates to upgrade and/or stuff that has non-critical niche capabilities and/or has been superseded by later variants. Stingers started getting refurbed around 2016 when the push for SHORAD finally materialized. I had one my first trip to Syria in 2017. Avengers were pulled out of mothballs around 2021 and put all over CENTCOM once we realized we had no other kinetic options for the group 3 drones that were pretty consistently nailing us. Now, in 2024, we still have zero MANPAD or short range program of record outside of a handful of FS-LIDS/Coyote that were hastily slapped together and...well....marginally terrible. Stinger is the MTOE weapon for the already stood up SHORAD battalions as a surrogate for the M-SHORAD's Stinger Block II, which doesn't exist yet and keeps getting punted right. Every Stinger we had in storage, which was all of them since we hadn't bought a new missile in at least 20 years, is on deck and going through life cycle extensions. I go to FCoE periodically and there are some real unhappy people there on a regular basis. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/45449/P_20180413_184058_jpg-3319450.JPG Having worked in Knox Hall for a while (prior to 2016), All I can say regarding this is "it's not like DoD wasn't warned in no uncertain terms by the whole of FCoE leadership (and not just the SHORAD ADA community) that this sort of shit was going to happen". Knowing the total numbers, unless there was a MAJOR demil program for the fully-expired lots that got funded after I left, that is a metric shitton of missiles being rebuilt. Let us not even mention how short-sighted the off-ramping of SLAMRAAM just prior to LRIP or the massive reduction in SENTINEL acquisition during that period was in the grand scheme of things. 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:00:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#27]
  British government sources indicated that a decision had already been made to allow Ukraine to use Storm Shadow cruise missiles on targets inside Russia, although it is not expected to be publicly announced on Friday when Keir Starmer meets Joe Biden in Washington DC. No official statements have been released yet. https://theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/11/blinken-hints-us-will-lift-restrictions-on-ukraine-using-long-range-arms-in-russia |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:08:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#28]
More on this one.
That’s a very young VKS pilot. 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:09:29 PM EST
[#29]
Really nice of the Brits and Americans to advertise future strategy.
Idiots. CMOS 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:15:41 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO: More on this one. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN3rDEWcAAWkN2?format=jpg&name=medium
That’s a very young VKS pilot. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN5Ov5WsAA2erL?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN4Nd_XwAACy5v?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN5gdzWYAAbm9R?format=jpg&name=900x900 Sure enough. https://t.me/fighter_bomber/18072 |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:25:14 PM EST
[#31]
 🇷🇺🇺🇦 On the enemy's attempt to land on platforms in the Black Sea Last night, the enemy attempted to land on the Crimea-2 platform at the Golitsyn gas field. According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the enemy used 14 Willard Sea Force boats with members of the special operations forces of the so-called Ukrainian Navy. ▪️The goal of the operation was to seize the drilling rig. According to official data, the Russian Armed Forces managed to destroy eight watercraft, and six more retreated. ▪️The Ukrainian forces that participated in the raid actively used FPV drones, launching them directly from high-speed boats. Thus, the Russian Armed Forces servicemen counted at least 26 hits by drones of this type. ▪️In addition, the enemy actively launched MANPADS at Russian Aerospace Forces aircraft, which were targeting Ukrainian watercraft with cannons and other weapons. Despite the fact that another action in the Black Sea ended unsuccessfully for Ukrainian forces, the Kiev regime will clearly make a new attempt to seize this or another drilling rig in the near future. 📌 It is characteristic that almost exactly a year ago, the enemy tried again and again to land troops on platforms at sea, despite losses and the lack of practical results. https://t.me/rybar/63432 |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:25:46 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Having worked in Knox Hall for a while I can tell you with some authority that carrying a Shahed 131 into Knox Hall is a pretty stressful endeavor. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:31:41 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Really nice of the Brits and Americans to advertise future strategy. Idiots. CMOS My guess is every time they contemplate an escalation step, they hope Russia will finally see the light. They still believe there is a diplomatic way out of this. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:31:46 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I can tell you with some authority that carrying a Shahed 131 into Knox Hall is a pretty stressful endeavor. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Having worked in Knox Hall for a while I can tell you with some authority that carrying a Shahed 131 into Knox Hall is a pretty stressful endeavor. I bet it was!
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:48:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: doc540]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voyager3: My guess is every time they contemplate an escalation step, they hope Russia will finally see the light. They still believe there is a diplomatic way out of this. Some are unwilling, some unable, and currently MANY are both Escalation policy strategy and decisions should have been in place years ago. The phrase "United States foreign policy" has as much credence now as as "United States border security policy". 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:56:57 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: We nuked SHORAD because the AF said they could manage short and medium range air defense. Missile technology has developed to the point where that is no longer a capability the air force was remotely postured to support, especially in a decentralized and dispersed environment like INDOPACOM. Once UAS became a significant part of that air defense picture the game was officially over. Group 2/3 UAS and the sheer saturation they are able to bring to the fight made SHORAD/CUAS, which functionally doesn't exist for us, one of the most important warfighting functions in MDO. Stingers started getting refurbed around 2016 when the push for SHORAD finally materialized. I had one my first trip to Syria in 2017. Avengers were pulled out of mothballs around 2021 and put all over CENTCOM once we realized we had no other kinetic options for the group 3 drones that were pretty consistently nailing us. Now, in 2024, we still have zero MANPAD or short range program of record outside of a handful of FS-LIDS/Coyote that were hastily slapped together and...well....marginally terrible. Stinger is the MTOE weapon for the already stood up SHORAD battalions as a surrogate for the M-SHORAD's Stinger Block II, which doesn't exist yet and keeps getting punted right. They run Avengers in it's place. Every Stinger we had in storage, which was all of them since we hadn't bought a new missile in at least 20 years, is on deck and going through life cycle extensions. I go to FCoE periodically and there are some real unhappy people there on a regular basis, exponentially more so than usual. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/45449/P_20180413_184058_jpg-3319450.JPG This is a large part of the concept of the MDTF, another reason why we need things like HIMARS and can't simply burn them wholesale. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... We nuked SHORAD because the AF said they could manage short and medium range air defense. Missile technology has developed to the point where that is no longer a capability the air force was remotely postured to support, especially in a decentralized and dispersed environment like INDOPACOM. Once UAS became a significant part of that air defense picture the game was officially over. Group 2/3 UAS and the sheer saturation they are able to bring to the fight made SHORAD/CUAS, which functionally doesn't exist for us, one of the most important warfighting functions in MDO. Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Old AVENGER and HAWK stuff won't hurt us, and may actually save $ since it avoids Demil costs on STINGER and HAWK. The HAWKs still floating around in US inventory were to support foreign users in any case, and there are huge lots of STINGER that were going to have to be demilled anyway. The real issue is with resupplying PATRIOT, as we have likely gone through the stuff that is at/nearing the end of service life and not candidates to upgrade and/or stuff that has non-critical niche capabilities and/or has been superseded by later variants. Stingers started getting refurbed around 2016 when the push for SHORAD finally materialized. I had one my first trip to Syria in 2017. Avengers were pulled out of mothballs around 2021 and put all over CENTCOM once we realized we had no other kinetic options for the group 3 drones that were pretty consistently nailing us. Now, in 2024, we still have zero MANPAD or short range program of record outside of a handful of FS-LIDS/Coyote that were hastily slapped together and...well....marginally terrible. Stinger is the MTOE weapon for the already stood up SHORAD battalions as a surrogate for the M-SHORAD's Stinger Block II, which doesn't exist yet and keeps getting punted right. They run Avengers in it's place. Every Stinger we had in storage, which was all of them since we hadn't bought a new missile in at least 20 years, is on deck and going through life cycle extensions. I go to FCoE periodically and there are some real unhappy people there on a regular basis, exponentially more so than usual. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/45449/P_20180413_184058_jpg-3319450.JPG Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Without TOO much thread drift: 1) If you are in the business of shooting down incoming missiles, having a counterfire capability both saves interceptor missiles reduces engagement windows, as the enemy can't really launch missiles in multiple waves if their launcher systems are quickly turned into debris and wreckage scattered around a really big crater (or a whole bunch of smaller craters if they are closer) after the first shot. Digitally sending a 10-digit grid to the to the appropriate FA leadership/operators has a much faster "flash to bang" than sending it to the Air Force, as proven conclusively during the Desert Storm "SCUD hunts". Artillery interdiction of TBMs requires the FA have something with the legs to get there fast; plus, with the exception of a few VT fuze variants, FA counterfire really doesn't have major issues overcoming weather, camouflage, concealment, or poor visibility. This is a large part of the concept of the MDTF, another reason why we need things like HIMARS and can't simply burn them wholesale. That STINGER has seen some shit; a little worried you only had one BCU; like most things in combat, two is one and one is likely none, since Murphy always gets a vote. Good on you for having earplugs though, safety first!
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Posted: 9/11/2024 2:58:19 PM EST
[#37]
Croatia announced an aid package for Ukraine in the amount of €5 million
This was announced by the Prime Minister of Croatia Andrej Plenkovich during his visit to Kyiv. The money will be used to restore the energy sector. In total, this is the 11th aid package from Croatia since the start of the full-scale invasion. The country has already allocated €300 million in aid to Ukraine. https://t.me/UkraineNow/58709 |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:10:26 PM EST
[#38]
Energy
@Attaqa2 Russian oil exports threaten Denmark with an environmental disaster.. Shadow tankers are unsupervised Details indicate that the increase in what was described as a “pile of dilapidated scrap” represents the European Union’s inability to prevent any potential environmental threat.. We read together what is meant 👇 Details: https://attaqa.net/?p=421583 #Russia #Oil 
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:11:33 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chronium76: Didn't we pull them when Soesterberg was closed down? What actually US bases are left in NL? Coeverden is long gone. Is there anything left? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chronium76: Originally Posted By iggy1337: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Europe is pretty squeamish on nukes, I doubt they’d be okay with that. Plus the European public would probably have a meltdown if Israel used nukes.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SbNC3fK7Ig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47xjob-IL8oThat’s why you make that agreement early when everyone can say it wasn’t considered possible then that we would actually have to do it. It was just a threat. Then they backed us into a corner. Now they only idiots and true believers pretend that Iran isn’t seeking the bomb it’s too late. There's a issue that's often left out in GD. For instance NL cannot just start making it's own nukes due to agreements with America, America controls the nukes that are (not confirmed or denied, nudge nudge wink wink) stationed here. Didn't we pull them when Soesterberg was closed down? What actually US bases are left in NL? Coeverden is long gone. Is there anything left? According to press reports in 2019 the US keeps B61s at Volkel airbase. The Dutch.gov doesn't confirm or deny. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:12:10 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Really nice of the Brits and Americans to advertise future strategy. Idiots. CMOS My thoughts exactly. Everything is being broadcast these days by our own side. No wonder the Kursk Operation was kept a secret from the west. I wouldn't trust those fuckers (us) either. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:22:55 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: How in the blue fu($ can a country, that bases everything off air superiority, be lacking in air defense..... Causing we invested trillions of dollars into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nation building is expensive. We need to get back to the military wins wars and that’s its job. Plus nation building made a lot of people lots of money. Building a stock pile of ads makes them only a little bit of money. Politicians are greedy evil bastards. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:28:44 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GoldenMead: Causing we invested trillions of dollars into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nation building is expensive. We need to get back to the military wins wars and that’s its job. Plus nation building made a lot of people lots of money. Building a stock pile of ads makes them only a little bit of money. Politicians are greedy evil bastards. Those MRAPs weren’t free. We spent billions and billions on MRAPS, only years later to destroy a shit ton of them instead of parking them in the desert |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:35:00 PM EST
[#43]
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-launches-major-counter-attack-184441974.html
Russia has launched a major counter-offensive in an attempt to dislodge Ukrainian forces from its Kursk region. Both Ukrainian and Russian sources said that Kyiv’s troops had started losing some of the ground they seized in the audacious incursion that began on Aug 6. On Wednesday, Maj Gen Apti Alaudinov, who commands Chechen special forces fighting in Kursk, said Russian troops had gone on the offensive. “The situation is good for us,” he said, according to Russian state news agency Tass. “A total of about 10 settlements in the Kursk region have been liberated.” Mash, a pro-Kremlin channel on the Telegram messaging app, reported that Moscow’s forces had advanced up to 150 square kilometres into the Ukrainian-held salient in a “local counter-offensive in the region”. Other prominent Russian military bloggers said their country’s troops had seized control of Snagost, a village south of Korenevo on the Ukrainian left flank. Battlefield footage shared on social media appeared to show at least eight armoured vehicles and tanks operated by Russia’s 51st Guards Airborne Regiment advancing on Snagost. “It appears Russia was able to get the armoured force across the Seym River, despite Ukrainian strikes on the bridges,” Rob Lee, a senior fellow at the foreign policy research institute, a US think tank, said. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:41:27 PM EST
[#44]
47 minutes ago.
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:41:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: GoldenMead]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KELBEAST: Those MRAPs weren’t free. We spent billions and billions on MRAPS, only years later to destroy a shit ton of them instead of parking them in the desert Don’t forget the ones we left for the taliban! |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:45:30 PM EST
[#46]
17 minutes ago.
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USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 3:55:19 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: Really nice of the Brits and Americans to advertise future strategy. Idiots. CMOS They do not want any sort of Ukrainian victory, much less a decisive one. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 4:06:54 PM EST
[#48]
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Posted: 9/11/2024 4:09:23 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By HIPPO: More on this one. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN3rDEWcAAWkN2?format=jpg&name=medium
That’s a very young VKS pilot. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN5Ov5WsAA2erL?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN4Nd_XwAACy5v?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXN5gdzWYAAbm9R?format=jpg&name=900x900 Sure enough. https://t.me/fighter_bomber/18072 The loss of a Su-30SM fighter jet in the Black Sea has been reported. According to available information, the pilots were killed. https://t.me/milinfolive/130343 |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 4:40:42 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: The goal of Israel is to end the nuclear program, at best that delays it, if Israel was able to conduct that kind of operation and believed that juice was worth the squeeze they would have already done it Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By jwnc: Not a geologist, but would Israel need to get all the way to the nuclear bunker? Would an attack on the entrances or even a penetrating bomb halfway to the bunker be enough shockwave to collapse the tunnels? The goal of Israel is to end the nuclear program, at best that delays it, if Israel was able to conduct that kind of operation and believed that juice was worth the squeeze they would have already done it I could imagine a scenario where Israel would until Iran has expended billions more of money that they don't have before burying the nukes underground. Stuxnet didn't end their nuke program either, but it did set it back years. |
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