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Posted: 10/15/2022 4:39:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Ancient outdated tanks combined with an extremely corrupt Russian military industrial complex and poorly trained conscript crews sounds like a recipe for disaster for the Russians.
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Posted: 10/15/2022 4:44:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ancient outdated tanks combined with an extremely corrupt Russian military industrial complex and poorly trained conscript crews sounds like a recipe for disaster for the Russians. They're not even assigning the mobilized guys with former military experience to their old jobs. Cooks are assigned as armor gunners. Infantry assigned as cooks. Tankers assigned as engineers. Just incredibly fucked up. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 4:53:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's hard to estimate the value of something that's 50 years old. Certainly they were the equivalent of several million dollars when new. I don't think many of the tanks they are rebuilding have much digital anything on them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I wonder if the T-72 refurbishment/modernization requires more chips and such that are suddenly in much shorter supply, making refurbishment of T-62s more attractive on a "tanks per chip" ratio. They are both just going straight to the grave, so a T-62 will explode just as easily as a T-72, and the "marginal costs" are less. Hell, they've been paid for so long ago that it might cost more to send the anti tank weapon than the Russians have into the T-62! It's hard to estimate the value of something that's 50 years old. Certainly they were the equivalent of several million dollars when new. I don't think many of the tanks they are rebuilding have much digital anything on them. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 5:08:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn. Wonder if an AT-4 will penetrate a T-62? The only AT-4 training I ever had was in basic, they said to aim for a track on a tank. But a T-62 is old enough, maybe you could punch through? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Somewhere in the big thread is a claim that 15% of recent tank kills are T-62 Damn. Wonder if an AT-4 will penetrate a T-62? The only AT-4 training I ever had was in basic, they said to aim for a track on a tank. But a T-62 is old enough, maybe you could punch through? All you need is a mobility kill. Even an M72 LAW can do that. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 5:10:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's my point, maybe that is why T-62s suddenly have value, is due to fewer microchips being required to get them running. Might make a difference if you're cut off from the supply of chips, but your armor demand is only increasing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if the T-72 refurbishment/modernization requires more chips and such that are suddenly in much shorter supply, making refurbishment of T-62s more attractive on a "tanks per chip" ratio. They are both just going straight to the grave, so a T-62 will explode just as easily as a T-72, and the "marginal costs" are less. Hell, they've been paid for so long ago that it might cost more to send the anti tank weapon than the Russians have into the T-62! It's hard to estimate the value of something that's 50 years old. Certainly they were the equivalent of several million dollars when new. I don't think many of the tanks they are rebuilding have much digital anything on them. Lack of chips is indeed a good point, simple is better for the Russians right now. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 6:15:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vassal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Several issues might be in play. The economies of the Soviet Union and vessel countries is vastly different than the US. Our goverment needs pork to spread. We needed to keep producing, so we did not maintain our antiques. A communistic country would not work that way. They needed to be able to arm there vessel states, but probably did not feel the need to manufacture new shit for them. So their antiques probably went into storage. Likewise, the ammo for those antiques probably went into storage. Even if they have plenty of modern equipment - right now they may be running low on ammo. Easier to dust off the old equipment that has not been given to other countries and use old surplus ammo than figure out a way to increase ammo production for the new stuff. Vassal. It's wessel. Like "We found the nuclear wessel." |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 7:01:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is broke and it's cheaper than a T80 or 72. They still come with a pop-up turret. I saw one of those videos with the pop-up turret. The guy in the tank went up with it. I felt bad for him as he obviously didn't survive. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 7:04:05 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its really hard to say. If you look at wars like the Boer War, Russo-Japanese War, which preceded WWI, or the Spanish Civil War, which preceded WWII, or the Armenian-NK fighting...there are definite indications that the new weapon systems are changing the balance. How much...really really hard to say. I think high intensity conflict between peer competitors is absolutely more of a crap shoot with much more uncertainty. And a world power that invests in UAVs has more of an advantage. Besides that...the old status quo is out and the future is uncertain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have read reports that Russia has lost over 90% of its combat armor vehicles in this. It’s certainly makes the case for the obsolescence of tanks. Anti tank weapons have far outpaced the development of armor. Its really hard to say. If you look at wars like the Boer War, Russo-Japanese War, which preceded WWI, or the Spanish Civil War, which preceded WWII, or the Armenian-NK fighting...there are definite indications that the new weapon systems are changing the balance. How much...really really hard to say. I think high intensity conflict between peer competitors is absolutely more of a crap shoot with much more uncertainty. And a world power that invests in UAVs has more of an advantage. Besides that...the old status quo is out and the future is uncertain. That last part about the status quo being out with the future uncertain scares me. I pray nothing awful happens to us. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 7:09:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: East Germany was allowed to leave the USSR so long as the UN does not enter their border states...that was the agreement.  East Germany was not part of the USSR (You probably mean the Warsaw Pact/ComBloc). The USSR was in the UN. You probably meant NATO. As to the "No advancing NATO to the Russian Frontier".....that's a He Said/She Said story, and the Russians have nothing in writing (and, when the Rules in post-1991 Europe were being written, EVERYTHING was being put into writing, just look at the hijinks surrounded the CFE treaty). |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 7:40:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's wessel. Like "We found the nuclear wessel." Ok Chekov... |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:05:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If this is actually a picture of vehicles being prepared for combat and not restored for a museum or parade I can’t imagine what the troops who get them will be thinking Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was taught by an Air Force pilot, on either end it’s a metric shit ton or an RCH, those are the extreme measures on each end. Recent picture of UVZ’s factory floor. Even getting the SU-122’s ready for use. This stuff is nuts. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/556465/1AF99C3F-37A9-46EC-B9B0-9ADF1A470724_jpe-2562381.JPG If this is actually a picture of vehicles being prepared for combat and not restored for a museum or parade I can’t imagine what the troops who get them will be thinking Pretty sure I have seen this foto long before the war of russian aggression started. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:27:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Were you part of 1985 NATO? I was. M1s and Bradleys were just starting to be deployed. The vast majority of NATO would have been M60 (and equivalent) and the 11 series would be in 113s and varients. Warsaw Pact was not a paper tiger and NATO was not as advanced as it is today. Last time I saw an M60, of any flavor, in the BRD, was early '84. Some rotgut reserve unit during Reforger trainup exercises, which were all put in a contonement area, then sent to Graf, Hohenfels and Wildflechen. Lots of units got free/new shit to take home. By '85 everything was Abrams and Bradleys. Marne division was a great unit. Yeah, we still had M113s and M151s, but they got the job done. Quite a bit was sent to DS/DS and kicked ass. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 8:58:27 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Soviet Union believed quantity has a quality of it's own. Maybe the Kremlin leaders didn't know the condition and maybe theft of equipment until they went into Ukraine. More suspicious is the awful performance of 1GTA (2nd Guards MRD and 4th Guards TD) when they were committed to battle. They were the cream of the conventional (non-SOF/VDV/Naval Infantry) troops, with the best equipment (modern T-90M and T-80+ tanks, BMP-3s, Ratnik, etc), and were garrisoned a short drive away from the Kremlin. The Ukrainians (mostly Light Infantry forces) handed them their asses. If the Kremlin didn't know....it's not because it was well-hidden from them out in Siberia. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:04:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LMFAO!!!! Whats next ? . . . Panzershrecks and Maxims ?     https://i2.wp.com/militaryhistorynow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/0f731bde.jpg http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/b/b4/BitvaZaMoskvu-Maxim.jpg/600px-BitvaZaMoskvu-Maxim.jpg Maxim will fuck you up from a fixed position. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 9:20:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are scraping just to come up with troops as well. They are technically not scraping the bottom of the barrel. In the 1940 invasion of Finland, when they got their asses kicked in the beginning, they kept pressing and won, but lost 180K KIA and another 200K WIA. We arent even close to that. And that was to take down a country 1/10 the size of Ukraine. However we aren't really seeing any innovation, training, new tactics, new ideas. They are actually getting worse. So that's a problem. if you're fighting a conglomeration of the most technically advanced stuff there is, a strategy of banzai charges and human wave attacks isn't going to get you there. The willingness to, say, trade six Russian KIA for one Ukrainian KIA MIGHT work if there is a magic number where you could say, "If I sacrifice five million Russians to kill 900 thousand Ukrainians, that will grind their army down and they will surrender." But the Russian colonialism was so oppressive that the Ukrainians wont surrender. They will fight to extreme ends. Its total war. There just doesnt seem to be a strategy. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:20:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are technically not scraping the bottom of the barrel. In the 1940 invasion of Finland, when they got their asses kicked in the beginning, they kept pressing and won, but lost 180K KIA and another 200K WIA. We arent even close to that. And that was to take down a country 1/10 the size of Ukraine. However we aren't really seeing any innovation, training, new tactics, new ideas. They are actually getting worse. So that's a problem. if you're fighting a conglomeration of the most technically advanced stuff there is, a strategy of banzai charges and human wave attacks isn't going to get you there. The willingness to, say, trade six Russian KIA for one Ukrainian KIA MIGHT work if there is a magic number where you could say, "If I sacrifice five million Russians to kill 900 thousand Ukrainians, that will grind their army down and they will surrender." But the Russian colonialism was so oppressive that the Ukrainians wont surrender. They will fight to extreme ends. Its total war. There just doesnt seem to be a strategy. 21st century Russia isn't the Soviet Union. They have less than half the population of the U.S. and the demographics were in a death spiral BEFORE they decided to kill off more of their youth in a pointless war and cause all their innovators to flee the country. Czar Nicholas tactics aren't going to get it done here because they don't have that kind of manpower. Though, they are certainly sending a lot of non-ethnic Russians to do the dying. On the plus side, this likely means that Russia will continue to export it's second biggest export after oil & gas... hot Russian women. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:25:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same thing an MTLB, bmp1/2, bmd would do with less crew? Yeah, North Korea does make it. Mission is different for those vehicles. BMPs can dragoon the infantry, anti-tank team, anti-air team, or whoever is riding in them to help with those tasks. Most MT-LB vehicles aren't at the front of combat (there are exceptions) so for what they do, they usually can wait for a rec0overy/repair crew to arrive. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:27:50 PM EDT
[#18]
I believe these will work fine on the post EMP battlefield.
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:34:26 PM EDT
[#19]
Bulgarianmilitary.com is a real credible source, ehh?
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:34:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe these will work fine on the post EMP battlefield. Russia is having plenty of movement problems with minimal enemy air on a normal battlefield. EMP or radiation is way beyond what they can manage. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:36:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The T-80s are the jet engines and they are expensive thirsty beasts. They like them for the arctic though because turbines start easily in low temps compared to piston engines. T-64 is also turbine, & there are a handful of diesel T-80s. In terms of counting generations of Post-war soviet tanks, Zero would be T-34, & the updated heavy tanks, One would be T-54/T-55/T62, Two-A would be T-64/T-80. Two-B would be T-72/T-90. Three would be T-95/Black Eagle/Snow Leopard/T-14 Armata, and there aren't enough of any of those to matter. |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:37:25 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:38:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I saw one of those videos with the pop-up turret. The guy in the tank went up with it. I felt bad for him as he obviously didn't survive. Gonna fly now ... gonna fly now ... |
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Posted: 10/15/2022 10:55:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: T-64 is also turbine, & there are a handful of diesel T-80s. In terms of counting generations of Post-war soviet tanks, Zero would be T-34, & the updated heavy tanks, One would be T-54/T-55/T62, Two-A would be T-64/T-80. Two-B would be T-72/T-90. Three would be T-95/Black Eagle/Snow Leopard/T-14 Armata, and there aren't enough of any of those to matter. T-64 uses a five cylinder ten piston opposed piston diesel. T-80 is more advanced than T-72. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 4:36:15 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All you need is a mobility kill. Even an M72 LAW can do that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Somewhere in the big thread is a claim that 15% of recent tank kills are T-62 Damn. Wonder if an AT-4 will penetrate a T-62? The only AT-4 training I ever had was in basic, they said to aim for a track on a tank. But a T-62 is old enough, maybe you could punch through? All you need is a mobility kill. Even an M72 LAW can do that. The AT4 can penetrate the T62 from any angle. I bet the M72 can too. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 10:27:51 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The AT4 can penetrate the T62 from any angle. I bet the M72 can too. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 10:34:28 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Perhaps you missed the video of a German captured T-34 that they ran into a swamp when they were done with it. It was pulled out of the swamp after 50 years of being underwater, dried out, fresh fuel and oil put in it, a charged battery, and it fired up and drove. I can't picture Russian depot storage/maintenance being QUITE that bad ... Watched this ISU 152 that had been outside for a long time fire up and run.  ISU-152 - Back in action |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 10:42:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Sorry for a slight derail but do not want to start a whole new Ukraine thread !
I am seeing much fewer videos of fixed wing Russian aircraft in action. And NONE of helicopters. Has Ukraine achieved air superiority ? |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 11:30:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry for a slight derail but do not want to start a whole new Ukraine thread ! I am seeing much fewer videos of fixed wing Russian aircraft in action. And NONE of helicopters. Has Ukraine achieved air superiority ? |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 12:32:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If there is functional ERA that may not be the case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The AT4 can penetrate the T62 from any angle. I bet the M72 can too. From what we've seen from the russians, that's a big if. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 1:05:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what we've seen from the russians, that's a big if. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 1:13:55 PM EDT
[#32]
The BDD appliqué armor on the turret cheeks of a T-62 are rated at about the same armor as the penetration level of a normal AT4 or the best LAW. I wouldn’t want to be on either side of that match up.
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Posted: 10/16/2022 1:23:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No not at all. Russia is still using aircraft though rather limitedly. Neither side has air superiority. It’s actually quite astonishing that Russia hasn’t achieved air superiority this far in to the conflict. They’re fucked |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 1:29:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither side has air superiority. It’s actually quite astonishing that Russia hasn’t achieved air superiority this far in to the conflict. They’re fucked The Russian/Soviet doctrine doesn't include Air Superiority. Their aircraft and maintenance aren't setup for quick turnaround to provide for constant availability. ADA (Air Defense Artillery) and SAMs (Surface-to-Air Missiles) are used to cover their own forces. Aircraft are used like long range artillery to strike high value static targets behind the lines. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 8:29:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russians are not fighting Ukraine they are fighting the western world arming them on their doorstep. The US has sent more money in arms to Ukraine than than Russia has spent on all its military in the past 5 years or more. So it's time for them to play the wild card. East Germany was allowed to leave the USSR so long as the UN does not enter their border states...that was the agreement. No one wants to tell the truth on this in the fake news media in the west. That said the US threatened nuclear war if the soviets put bases in Cuba on the US doorstep. Also keep in mind the US intentionally bombed the shit out of civilian targets in both Germany and Japan killing millions of eldery and women and children along with using the atomic bomb twice to win a war to lessen its losses in a ground war. Time for Russia to follow the same plan. Believe me when I say they are thinking this. Thus Russia should use nukes to win in Ukraine due to the west funding and supplying them and if the west tries to attack them then full nuclear war is on with all countries in both Europe and the US. Make the US blink this time as to what they hold dear. Ukraine stays Russian as it has since the 13th century or the West looses all they hold dear and a billion people die and everything you know is destroyed...make your choice. Same thing the US did to Japan. That's how I'd play this if I were Putin. Not saying this should happen just discussing the reality by war gaming at the adult level without the MSM propaganda because most likely this is what they are thinking. Grown ups need to consider the reality of going to war with a country possessing 3000 nuclear intercontinental missiles (even if only 1/2 work) and if its worth loosing everything and everyone you know to support the worlds biggest most corrupt money laundering state...Russia may have a shitty army now but this is not Iraq. I say hold piece talks and allow Russia a corridor in Ukraine to their shitty black sea fleet to end this before it becomes the biggest holocaust in mans history. It's simply not worth it to us. Too many lies in this piece of regurgitated Russian propaganda to hit all the points, but there was never any agreement for the “UN” ( I think you meant NATO ) to enter border states of Russia. If this is true, surely you can link us to a copy of this “agreement” ( you won’t, it doesn’t exist.) what does exist is an agreement that Russia will respect Ukraine borders. You know, just another treaty Russia broke in 2014 when they invaded Ukraine. |
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Posted: 10/16/2022 8:32:39 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 10/17/2022 1:17:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: T-64 uses a five cylinder ten piston opposed piston diesel. T-80 is more advanced than T-72. You are right - I remembered wrong. T-80 hull and early T-80 turrets were based on T-64 design. |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 1:50:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: T-64 uses a five cylinder ten piston opposed piston diesel. T-80 is more advanced than T-72. Depends, some t72s can be more advanced than the t80. A t72b3 obr2016 will be a better tank than a t80bv b etc. |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 2:01:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watched this ISU 152 that had been outside for a long time fire up and run.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1wbsWXMwCkIIRC they used those things to knock down outbuilding when chernobyl blew up were abandoned in place and the hulks are still there. They never throw anything out. |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 2:49:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends, some t72s can be more advanced than the t80. A t72b3 obr2016 will be a better tank than a t80bv b etc. Of course. When I compare things like that I always mean “of the same era.” Magazine racing T tanks is still the special Olympics though. |
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