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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:14:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not saying 5.56 is ineffective. 5.56 is definitely deadly, but 12 gauge will do more damage in a single shot at close range. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:14:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you even know what reading comprehension is? There's two factors I mentioned. First, the nature of their complaint, which you DO respond to, indicates wounding rather than killing efficacy. The second, more important point, which you ignore or simply don't understand, is that they objected to our entry into the war, and were trying to make a political move in an effort to characterize us as savage, uncivilized, back-woods types. Factual basis and their own activities were unimportant to that PR and political move, and they just used the entry of a different category of weapon as their chosen tool in this case. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:15:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But yea, I'm sure they were TERRIFIED of shotguns. https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-awesome-trench-gun-terrified-germans-in-both-world-wars |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:16:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not saying 5.56 is ineffective. 5.56 is definitely deadly, but 12 gauge will do more damage in a single shot at close range. But, it isn’t 1850, so.... |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:16:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it still 1918? What is the date?.......... THE YEAR!?! 
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:16:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why are people so mad that a 12 gauge slug is more powerful than a 5.56 round? Obviously a shotgun has limitations, but inside 25 yards, a non CNS hit with a 12 gauge slug will kill a home intruder faster than the same hit with a 5.56. A 12 gauge slug has more than twice the energy. Even buckshot has about 50% more energy It will disrupt more tissue and cause more bleeding. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:17:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, you missed the point that each firearm has a area in which it is best. Carry during the day, a pistol As to your "reply" Oh my, You seem so touchy touchy touchy.... Well seems like you think anyone who doesn't use an AR for any and all defense is going to die a gruesome death... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Based on your false dichotomies and poor guesswork, I'd say you'd be fucked either way. Might want to train more.  Carry during the day, a pistol As to your "reply" Oh my, You seem so touchy touchy touchy.... Well seems like you think anyone who doesn't use an AR for any and all defense is going to die a gruesome death... You keep using faulty logic to prove circular reasoning and analogies that have little to do with the topic, all while ignoring people with training and real life experience. I didn't miss your point, they're just shitty points for an argument you're making poorly. I mean, it's funny as fuck, so don't stop. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:17:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, because Salmon oil energy pellets. 
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:17:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rusted Ace on a few too many colas & peeps... https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64051152.jpg Tac-Com knows what’s up.
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:18:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice, I should get another one, never thought of a folder on a shotgun. It was my truck gun for a while and fit well behind the seat. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:18:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Google 12 gauge buckshot wounds. let us know... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
google 5.56 wounds, let us know? |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:18:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The overwhelming majority of gun owners, even shotgunners, don't do any meaningful practice. Most of you won't hit your target no matter what weapon you have, be it a pistol, shotgun, or AR. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:19:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ve seen naturally occurring holes in females you can push a beer can through. Vagina for HD=confirmed! |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:20:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like getting hit by slow moving spheres, or a handful of .380. No surprise there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
google 5.56 wounds, let us know? If somebody made a 32ACP carbine with a 72-round magazine that only fired in 9-round bursts.... |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:22:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You with your bullshit knowledge- What do you want in war? When the Germans seen the shotguns come in the trenches they got blasted to fuck. They flat out worked. It had to do with wounding and maiming to a point and was labeled as to effective because with one pull of the trigger there could be 3-4 people wounded. Nothing to do with any political bullshit statement, and only made up from people like you. The more the trenchers shot the more they wounded. Again what do you want in war? ????? Eh think a bit now. Plus the dead and mutilated fuckin Kraut who had the shotguns bead on his chest. Hour long segment on the Military channel about the Winchester 12 gauge trench gun watch it and learn.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But not on account of the lethality of the shotgun. Their rather spurious complaint, which was more a political statement about our entry into the war than about the shotgun itself, specified that they claimed the shotgun caused unnecessary suffering. In other words, it wounded people too much, rather than kill them outright. What do you want in war? When the Germans seen the shotguns come in the trenches they got blasted to fuck. They flat out worked. It had to do with wounding and maiming to a point and was labeled as to effective because with one pull of the trigger there could be 3-4 people wounded. Nothing to do with any political bullshit statement, and only made up from people like you. The more the trenchers shot the more they wounded. Again what do you want in war? ????? Eh think a bit now. Plus the dead and mutilated fuckin Kraut who had the shotguns bead on his chest. Hour long segment on the Military channel about the Winchester 12 gauge trench gun watch it and learn. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:22:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good for you, good for your family history, my grandfather also fought over there. All of which has nothing to do with what's being and been discussed. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:24:08 PM EDT
[#17]
12 gauge makes wounds you can push a beer can through.
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:24:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HUH? You alright? Eat something maybe! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good for you, good for your family history, my grandfather also fought over there. All of which has nothing to do with what's being and been discussed. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:24:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m not saying 5.56 is ineffective. 5.56 is definitely deadly, but 12 gauge will do more damage in a single shot at close range. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have. Lots of things. Have you ever shot anyone with 5.56? If we're talking home defense distances, it's potentially moving 3 times as fast as buck shot, and it stretches things like some organs until they don't want to stretch anymore, and the dude has an unusual amount of hemorrhaging going on in his life. 5.56 is definitely deadly, but 12 gauge will do more damage in a single shot at close range. As an added bonus, since 5.56 is moving nearly 3x the speed, you get all that stretch of inelastic organs like the heart or liver that is still going to incapacitate the dude. Theres actually a section on this website check full of writings from an MD as well as independant ballisticians that explains all this. It goes back about 15 years, which is why no one shows up to these threads trying to seriously explain this to people who are just delving into it. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:25:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Usually"?? Wtf is usually?! If you're within 10 feet, and I put a single 5.56 one inch to the right of your heart, what happens? If you're at the same distance and my POI is the exact same spot with a 12 ga 3" 00 load, what happens? Which shot is more likely to put you down? Now let's assume the rifle is an AR, and my shotgun isn't a 28" bbl break action SxS, and it's an actual modern semi auto, (higher than average) capacity built for home defense or aggression. No one really doubts that a 5.56 to a vital won't do the job, but which one will cause more trauma to the heart, or will increase your chances of getting a CNS hit, will lead to more blood loss, and can project more holes faster? Everyone here expects to put their 5.56 22 caliber bullet directly into the heart of a running, ducking, panicked target while they're potentially getting shot at, like they're shooting at their "tactical" target. It doesn't work that way. You can plan all you want, but a good plan rarely survives aggressive contact. A good shotgun increases your odds through pure and simple firepower. And how the fuck is putting a light, a rail, and having a modern shotgun trying to turn it into a rifle?! |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:25:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
12 gauge makes wounds you can push a beer can through. Or is it bear cans? |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:26:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But yea, I'm sure they were TERRIFIED of shotguns. https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-awesome-trench-gun-terrified-germans-in-both-world-wars Oh yea also, the whole german thing is just a showcase of how shotguns of the period sucked at killing people, their complaint was ""it is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering". Probably why the Thompson sub machine gun was invented to replace the role the trench gun had. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:26:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now you Nancy boys brought up war in the first place. Then lets get back to across the room or down the hallway. OP and all. You think the wounding potential is greater or less so at 12 yds? How about 20yds? |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:27:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Google 12 gauge buckshot wounds. let us know... People like to post gory pictures of cranial, intraoral, or contact shotgun shots but that's completely irrelevant. Anyone whose brain stem is destroyed by a bullet is dead. The gore means nothing, and just means you're gonna have to recarpet. Intraoral and contact shots show tearing of the skin that looks brutal but is irrelevant in terms of self defense. Besides, you're gonna have some 'splaining to do how the shotgun got inside of his mouth.
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:28:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's how you win an argument. Well, that and their commando raid to neutralize our salmon oil reserve tanks. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:29:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
to neutralize our salmon oil reserve tanks. 
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:29:35 PM EDT
[#27]
I've only read page 13 but I am going to assume this has turned into AR vs shotgun like all shotgun for HD threads do.
I pick the AR. I would still feel confident with a 12ga pump with 6 shells of buck and/or slugs as well. They're both good HD weapons. As is a .44 Magnum (other than the last 2 blowing out your ear drums) Disadvantage to the last 2 for me is simply round count. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:29:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If 12 gauge is good, 8 gauge is better. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:30:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
12 gauge makes wounds you can push a beer can through. Didn't know 12 gauge was as powerful as a 25mm chain gun! Learn something new everyday! |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:31:32 PM EDT
[#30]
2nd best HD weapon ever, can cannon loaded with a beercan full of salmon oil powered by blanks enhanced with nut coal powder.
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:33:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2nd best HD weapon ever, can cannon loaded with a beercan full of salmon oil powered by blanks enhanced with nut coal powder. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:33:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. At 10 feet or less, tomato, tomato. The pattern of the shotgun may make more wound channels, but most 5.56 choices are going to yaw and fragment or expand (depending on bullet type) in the first few inches, and the permanent cavitation will be close to that of a slug or tight 12 ga pattern. As an added bonus, since 5.56 is moving nearly 3x the speed, you get all that stretch of inelastic organs like the heart or liver that is still going to incapacitate the dude. Theres actually a section on this website check full of writings from an MD as well as independant ballisticians that explains all this. It goes back about 15 years, which is why no one shows up to these threads trying to seriously explain this to people who are just delving into it. 12 gauge is 18.5mm Slugs are about 400-500 grains They move at 1400-1800 fps You can pretend physics is not real but it is in fact I real. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:35:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The germans will protest it as being too woundy. Maybe watch some TV and you would actually learn something about shooting!!!!! |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:35:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It took too many krauts out with every trigger pull, dead or wounded does it matter in war? Now you Nancy boys brought up war in the first place. Then lets get back to across the room or down the hallway. OP and all. You think the wounding potential is greater or less so at 12 yds? How about 20yds? How about 50yds, sure as hell you will be hit, you might even be dead and all your dumb ass friends might have xtra hole in their ass.  lol You're funny. Ignorant, somehow proud of it, but funny. lol Sure thing, Suzie. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:35:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've only read page 13 but I am going to assume this has turned into AR vs shotgun like all shotgun for HD threads do. I pick the AR. I would still feel confident with a 12ga pump with 6 shells of buck and/or slugs as well. They're both good HD weapons. As is a .44 Magnum (other than the last 2 blowing out your ear drums) Disadvantage to the last 2 for me is simply round count. Too Much fun Fun FUN!!! |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:36:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Usually"?? Wtf is usually?! If you're within 10 feet, and I put a single 5.56 one inch to the right of your heart, what happens? You're probably gonna die quickly if the ammo fragments or expands. The wound left from 5.56 is bigger than the expanded bullet. I'm not sure if you understand this. If you're at the same distance and my POI is the exact same spot with a 12 ga 3" 00 load, what happens? Depends on how it spreads. You're at the mercy of Lady Luck. If you get 3 pellets on his heart, that's about the same DEVASTATING STOPPING POWER as 3 rounds of .32ACP FMJ, and we all know half a mag of .32 ACP FMJ is the peak of terminal performance. Which shot is more likely to put you down? The 5.56. Now let's assume the rifle is an AR, and my shotgun isn't a 28" bbl break action SxS, and it's an actual modern semi auto, (higher than average) capacity built for home defense or aggression. No one really doubts that a 5.56 to a vital won't do the job, but which one will cause more trauma to the heart, or will increase your chances of getting a CNS hit, will lead to more blood loss, and can project more holes faster? Everyone here expects to put their 5.56 22 caliber bullet directly into the heart of a running, ducking, panicked target while they're potentially getting shot at, like they're shooting at their "tactical" target. It doesn't work that way. You can plan all you want, but a good plan rarely survives aggressive contact. See above. A good shotgun increases your odds through pure and simple firepower. And how the fuck is putting a light, a rail, and having a modern shotgun trying to turn it into a rifle?! When someone buys a mag-fed, semi-auto shotgun, adds a light and optic, and fires single projectiles through it... they're poorly trying to replicate a battle rifle. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:37:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The germans will protest it as being too woundy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
2nd best HD weapon ever, can cannon loaded with a beercan full of salmon oil powered by blanks enhanced with nut coal powder.
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:38:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.56 is an excellent round, but you would have to be ignorant of physics to believe that it causes more damage than a 12 gauge slug. 12 gauge is 18.5mm Slugs are about 400-500 grains They move at 1400-1800 fps You can pretend physics is not real but it is in fact I real. You might want to find the ammo section, FAQ, and start reading up before you start slinging the word "ignorant" around. I'm working from both formal education and experience. You are making a supposition on a less than ideal understanding of the subject matter. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:39:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.56 is an excellent round, but you would have to be ignorant of physics to believe that it causes more damage than a 12 gauge slug. 12 gauge is 18.5mm Slugs are about 400-500 grains They move at 1400-1800 fps You can pretend physics is not real but it is in fact I real. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Meh. At 10 feet or less, tomato, tomato. The pattern of the shotgun may make more wound channels, but most 5.56 choices are going to yaw and fragment or expand (depending on bullet type) in the first few inches, and the permanent cavitation will be close to that of a slug or tight 12 ga pattern. As an added bonus, since 5.56 is moving nearly 3x the speed, you get all that stretch of inelastic organs like the heart or liver that is still going to incapacitate the dude. Theres actually a section on this website check full of writings from an MD as well as independant ballisticians that explains all this. It goes back about 15 years, which is why no one shows up to these threads trying to seriously explain this to people who are just delving into it. 12 gauge is 18.5mm Slugs are about 400-500 grains They move at 1400-1800 fps You can pretend physics is not real but it is in fact I real. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:40:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote History75 grn otm isnt even the bestest. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:41:53 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Note that Reese immediately obtained a shotgun after that encounter. Tac-Com knows what’s up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Rusted Ace on a few too many colas & peeps... https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64051152.jpg Tac-Com knows what’s up. Terminators in all four movies made straight for the Gauge! Terminator I 
Terminator II 
Terminator III 
Terminator Genysis  And even Pre-Tech Com Sgt. (the young Kyle Reese) had the good sense to go with a 12 gauge in Terminator Salvation 
Obviously, a Killer Cyborg from the Future created & programmed by the ulitmate intellegence knew what was up when it came to weaponry! 
Until I can get a Westinghouse Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range, I'll stick with the shotgun for now. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:42:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I read that in Hulk Hogans voice Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: YOUVE NEVER SEEN WHAT A BEAR DOES WHEN SHOT FLOPPING A DOVE WITH ENERGIES AND 9 PELLETS. SLATHER YOURSELF UP WITH SALMON PEANUTS AND GET INTO THAT TERRAIN BROTHER! |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:43:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote History |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:45:04 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Meh. At 10 feet or less, tomato, tomato. The pattern of the shotgun may make more wound channels, but most 5.56 choices are going to yaw and fragment or expand (depending on bullet type) in the first few inches, and the permanent cavitation will be close to that of a slug or tight 12 ga pattern. As an added bonus, since 5.56 is moving nearly 3x the speed, you get all that stretch of inelastic organs like the heart or liver that is still going to incapacitate the dude. Theres actually a section on this website check full of writings from an MD as well as independant ballisticians that explains all this. It goes back about 15 years, which is why no one shows up to these threads trying to seriously explain this to people who are just delving into it. 12 gauge is 18.5mm Slugs are about 400-500 grains They move at 1400-1800 fps You can pretend physics is not real but it is in fact I real. https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21881&d=1511525332 |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:45:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh boy, NOW you've gone and pizzed off the "AR - True Believers"... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I’m not saying 5.56 is ineffective. 5.56 is definitely deadly, but 12 gauge will do more damage in a single shot at close range. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:46:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In that case how did they justify prohibition of expanding ammunition? |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:49:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Randy Savage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: YOUVE NEVER SEEN WHAT A BEAR DOES WHEN SHOT FLOPPING A DOVE WITH ENERGIES AND 9 PELLETS. SLATHER YOURSELF UP WITH SALMON PEANUTS AND GET INTO THAT TERRAIN BROTHER! just HULK!! 
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:51:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: O he’s right. Single shots are all that matter because shotgunners don’t miss or ever have multiple assailants Fix your shit for any contingency madcap, damn. |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:52:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The real benefit to 12ga for HD is the ability to have different loads on hand for the given situation ie: rock salt, bean bag, slug, etc. My "do-all" HD setup is #1 - rock salt #2 - Dragons breath #3 - Glaser safety slug #4 - #4 hevi shot #5 - 00 buck #6 - 00 buck #7 - 1oz slug #8 - Flechette |
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Posted: 4/7/2019 9:53:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to put these people in the middle of Kodiak island at night, right after break up, smeared in salmon oil and peanut butter, then offer them an AR with 9 mags of ammo of their choice, or a semi 12 with ammo of their choice. When they pick the 12, I'd give them their AR and wish them luck. Especially since "stopping power" doesn't exist. 
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