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Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:55:54 AM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


Didn't the first stage of the Saturn V have 5 engines? And didn't they lose one at least once and still successfully place the payload in orbit?
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Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:
Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


I'd imagine the engines being produced now already have improvements that these didn't. At least they know they whole thing won't blow up or become uncontrollable if they lose a few engines.

It went out of control because they lost a few engines.
I think we will see a new booster design in the works with 5-9 much larger engines, like super-dooper Raptors or some such thing that produce as much if not more thrust than the 33 engine combination.


As long as they can detect an engine failure in progress and shut it down before it blows up and takes out other stuff, having 33 engines is a huge reliability advantage because they can lose a few of them and still complete the mission and land safely.  If they only had five engines, losing just one would result in the loss of the vehicle.


Didn't the first stage of the Saturn V have 5 engines? And didn't they lose one at least once and still successfully place the payload in orbit?


Yes, and the first stage vehicle was lost. With five engines, super heavy wouldn't be able to land with an engine out.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:56:02 AM EDT
[#2]
so did it explode ?  or not explode.

i did not see an explosion --- did that occur at a high altitude ?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:57:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mort] [#3]
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Originally Posted By Sailboat:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


Wow. I'm betting there's some serious damage to the pad and tank farm
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/162868/IMG_3665_JPG-2789465.jpg
Am i seeing this right, is the concrete eroded in a crater? Is there now an air-gap under that footing bottom of the picture left of center? Wasn't the area under the pad previously flat?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:58:37 AM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By MFP_4073:

so did it explode ?  or not explode.

i did not see an explosion --- did that occur at a high altitude ?
View Quote

Blew up at 30,km after failing second stage separation. Presumed intentional.
Small explosion as first stage was presumably out of fuel.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:00:15 AM EDT
[#5]
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Originally Posted By mort:
Am i seeing this right, is the concrete eroded in a crater? Is there now an air-gap under that footing bottom of the picture left of center? Wasn't the area under the pad previously flat?
View Quote

Yes.
But the piers are on pilings so still supported it looks like. The concrete perimeter ring though is experiencing structural sunlight.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:00:30 AM EDT
[#6]
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Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:

Intentional choice a lot have argued over. They probably don't want to deal with the amount of water that would be required for their planned launch tempo.
That may be a expensive poor decision.
View Quote


One source indicated that the number of flights like this make be around five per year.  It is probably in this thread and I don't recall the numbers and some appeared to be just Starship.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:00:30 AM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:

Blew up at 30,km after failing second stage separation. Presumed intentional.
Small explosion as first stage was presumably out of fuel.
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Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
Originally Posted By MFP_4073:

so did it explode ?  or not explode.

i did not see an explosion --- did that occur at a high altitude ?

Blew up at 30,km after failing second stage separation. Presumed intentional.
Small explosion as first stage was presumably out of fuel.


Pretty sure I heard on-stream that it was confirmed detonated for safety.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:00:31 AM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By mort:
Am i seeing this right, is the concrete eroded in a crater? Is there now an air-gap under that footing bottom of the picture left of center? Wasn't the area under the pad previously flat?
View Quote

Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:01:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


Didn't the first stage of the Saturn V have 5 engines? And didn't they lose one at least once and still successfully place the payload in orbit?
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Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:
Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


I'd imagine the engines being produced now already have improvements that these didn't. At least they know they whole thing won't blow up or become uncontrollable if they lose a few engines.

It went out of control because they lost a few engines.
I think we will see a new booster design in the works with 5-9 much larger engines, like super-dooper Raptors or some such thing that produce as much if not more thrust than the 33 engine combination.


As long as they can detect an engine failure in progress and shut it down before it blows up and takes out other stuff, having 33 engines is a huge reliability advantage because they can lose a few of them and still complete the mission and land safely.  If they only had five engines, losing just one would result in the loss of the vehicle.


Didn't the first stage of the Saturn V have 5 engines? And didn't they lose one at least once and still successfully place the payload in orbit?

Apollo 6 (unmanned) lost multiple 2nd and 3rd stage engines, resulting in a significantly lower orbit.

Apollo 13 lost a 2nd stage engine, which could be compensated for because it's at a higher altitude where TWR is less important.

No 1st stage engine ever failed.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:01:54 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:

Blew up at 30,km after failing second stage separation. Presumed intentional.
Small explosion as first stage was presumably out of fuel.
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Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
Originally Posted By MFP_4073:

so did it explode ?  or not explode.

i did not see an explosion --- did that occur at a high altitude ?

Blew up at 30,km after failing second stage separation. Presumed intentional.
Small explosion as first stage was presumably out of fuel.
The Flight Termination System... "self destruct" which are explosives ... was triggered.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:02:22 AM EDT
[#11]



Here is another one of the launch pad before the damage.


Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:02:57 AM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By notso:
And the civil engineering work that would be needed to make a full trench and such below the mount. Given the elevation there, that would be non-trivial, and probably need more .gov approvals for that much construction.
View Quote


Look at the launch sites in Florida.  The launch ducting/passageways may be at ground level and above.  There is a long ramp UP to the launch area.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:03:17 AM EDT
[#13]
I feel like the cheapest solution may be to just launch from a higher pad.

Keep the towers the same height to stack, them lift complete stack  to like the catch height to launch from.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:04:15 AM EDT
[#14]
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Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:05:28 AM EDT
[#15]
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Originally Posted By Sailboat:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


Wow. I'm betting there's some serious damage to the pad and tank farm
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/162868/IMG_3665_JPG-2789465.jpg

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:07:33 AM EDT
[#16]
Guys... there is going to be a water deluge system.  The parts for it are already at Starbase.  It just hasn't been installed yet.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:07:46 AM EDT
[#17]
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The tower structure itself looks pretty good.....concrete not so much.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:11:36 AM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By fox2008:

The tower structure itself looks pretty good.....concrete not so much.
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Originally Posted By fox2008:

The tower structure itself looks pretty good.....concrete not so much.
It'll buff out given 200tons of concrete.

Guess stage 0 still needs some work.  Maybe the oil platform launch site idea should get another chance?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:11:38 AM EDT
[#19]
So did the thrust on launch kickback and destroy some of the engines on launch?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:15:41 AM EDT
[#20]
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Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:
Guys... there is going to be a water deluge system.  The parts for it are already at Starbase.  It just hasn't been installed yet.
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They didn't want to pay contractors to excavate for the installation. The launch did it for them.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:16:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Reminded me of firefly FLTA001
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:18:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

Yikes.  The launch stand is still there but I don't think that's the way it should look.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:21:17 AM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By realwar:
So did the thrust on launch kickback and destroy some of the engines on launch?
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When you see the volume of concrete missing on the picture.....I'd guess it's possible that caused some of the issues.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:24:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: PraesidiumFabrica] [#24]
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Originally Posted By fox2008:

When you see the volume of concrete missing on the picture.....I'd guess it's possible that caused some of the issues.
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They also left the pad at a bit of an angle, the clearance is pretty tight so I wouldn’t be surprised if some engines contacted the pad
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:30:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar] [#25]
Edit: Whoops wrong video.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:33:18 AM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By realwar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x85gXFdOqbo
View Quote


That’s uh, not the SpaceX channel and that’s a really old video
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:40:23 AM EDT
[#27]
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Originally Posted By shooter_gregg:
They didn't want to pay contractors to excavate for the installation. The launch did it for them.
View Quote

You know I can actually see SpaceX doing that.

Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:43:02 AM EDT
[#28]


Elon Musk's mother celebrates on a balcony in Texas as they watched the launch




Kimbal Musk, Elon's brother, was also there to support the epic SpaceX mission




















Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:47:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AJ_Dual] [#29]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 11:54:06 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dagger41:

It started losing engines in a very short order and you could see them eating themselves on the way up.
They have a lot of work to do to sort that out.
View Quote
hydraulic actuators blew up taking engines out, they are already changing to electric
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:01:45 PM EDT
[#31]
That was an EPIC flight Test, and I'm even more excited for the future than I was previously.

It's one bright spot in a world of darkness.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:09:16 PM EDT
[#32]
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Originally Posted By wwace:
hydraulic actuators blew up taking engines out, they are already changing to electric
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Originally Posted By wwace:
Originally Posted By Dagger41:

It started losing engines in a very short order and you could see them eating themselves on the way up.
They have a lot of work to do to sort that out.
hydraulic actuators blew up taking engines out, they are already changing to electric

NSF was discussing the possibility that the three stage separation hooks may have been hydraulically powered and subsequently unable to disconnect booster from ship.

There's also no telling how much damage booster and it's engines sustained due to frag that would be mitigated with a deluge system.

Either way, I'm certain there were/will be lessons learned and hopefully it won't be too difficult or time consuming to apply them.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:09:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DarkGray] [#33]
double tap
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:13:03 PM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


That seems unlikely.
View Quote
but true, the sand cloud was huge and persistent
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:14:20 PM EDT
[#35]
What do they say?

"There are successful launches.and then are launches rich in learning opportunities."
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:14:26 PM EDT
[#36]
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Originally Posted By jordanmills:

That and they were probably ordered to cheer as long as nobody died.
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No one was ordered to cheer.

This isn't some stupid football game.

It's a rocket launch. People put their lives into it.

When the rocket does something good, the cheers come automatically.  You can't stop it. You have no control of the sound's coming out of your mouth.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:21:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PraesidiumFabrica] [#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DarkGray:

NSF was discussing the possibility that the three stage separation hooks may have been hydraulically powered and subsequently unable to disconnect booster from ship.

There's also no telling how much damage booster and it's engines sustained due to frag that would be mitigated with a deluge system.

Either way, I'm certain there were/will be lessons learned and hopefully it won't be too difficult or time consuming to apply them.
View Quote


I am hearing from SpaceX people that multiple car sized pieces of concrete were liberated from the pad and flung hundreds of feet into the air and away.

Some of these “impinged” on the grid fins during takeoff
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:22:01 PM EDT
[#38]
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Originally Posted By DarkGray:

NSF was discussing the possibility that the three stage separation hooks may have been hydraulically powered and subsequently unable to disconnect booster from ship.

There's also no telling how much damage booster and it's engines sustained due to frag that would be mitigated with a deluge system.

Either way, I'm certain there were/will be lessons learned and hopefully it won't be too difficult or time consuming to apply them.
View Quote

A properly designed water suppression system also reduces the acoustic energy reflected back onto the engines. That reflected acoustic energy is enough to shake the engines apart, which may be why so many of the booster engines failed during liftoff.

But it doesn't address the failure to separate the booster stage.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:24:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Watching the live stream again and took some screenshots.

When SpaceX put the graphics on the screen at 20s it showed 3 engines not running.


At 29s you can see what looks like flames coming out of the bottom edge of the booster


Shortly after you can see debris fly from the bottom of the booster (hard to capture on a screenshot but here is one piece)


At 40s the 4th engine stops


At 62s the 5th engine stops


At 102s the 6th engine stops


At 111s the 6th engine shows back online, could be a sensor issue???




Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:25:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: castlebravo84] [#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DnPRK:

A properly designed water suppression system also reduces the acoustic energy reflected back onto the engines. That reflected acoustic energy is enough to shake the engines apart, which may be why so many of the booster engines failed during liftoff.

But it doesn't address the failure to separate the booster stage.
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Originally Posted By DnPRK:
Originally Posted By DarkGray:

NSF was discussing the possibility that the three stage separation hooks may have been hydraulically powered and subsequently unable to disconnect booster from ship.

There's also no telling how much damage booster and it's engines sustained due to frag that would be mitigated with a deluge system.

Either way, I'm certain there were/will be lessons learned and hopefully it won't be too difficult or time consuming to apply them.

A properly designed water suppression system also reduces the acoustic energy reflected back onto the engines. That reflected acoustic energy is enough to shake the engines apart, which may be why so many of the booster engines failed during liftoff.

But it doesn't address the failure to separate the booster stage.


It looked like some of the engines were still running when they tried to separate.  If thrust is accerating the booster into the ship faster than the rotation is trying to pull them apart, the ship won't come off the booster.

I dont know a lot about rocket engines, but once lit and running, you probably need to cut off propellant flow in order to shut them down.  If damage from the reflected shockwave, debris from the pad, or shrapnel from a blown engine takes out the mechanism used to cut off propellant flow to an engine, it might keep burning until the propellant tanks are empty or depressurized.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:26:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mort] [#41]
Rocket goes up,
Flames go down,
Concrete goes up flies all around,
Rocket goes up,
Flames go down,
Rocket goes up spinns round and round,
Rocket blows up flames fall down.
SpaceX cheers up as newsie gloats abound.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:27:51 PM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By Sailboat:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


Wow. I'm betting there's some serious damage to the pad and tank farm
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/162868/IMG_3665_JPG-2789465.jpg

That will not buff out
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:29:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DarkGray:

NSF was discussing the possibility that the three stage separation hooks may have been hydraulically powered and subsequently unable to disconnect booster from ship.

There's also no telling how much damage booster and it's engines sustained due to frag that would be mitigated with a deluge system.

Either way, I'm certain there were/will be lessons learned and hopefully it won't be too difficult or time consuming to apply them.
View Quote



This makes sense
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:32:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:33:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mort:
Rocket goes up,
Flames go down,
Concrete goes up flies all around,
Rocket goes up,
Flames go down,
Rocket goes up spinns round and round,
Rocket blows up flames fall down.
SpaceX cheers up as newsie gloats abound.
View Quote

Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:33:58 PM EDT
[#46]
So when's the next SS Heavy launch try?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:34:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mort:
Rocket goes up,
Flames go down,
Concrete goes up flies all around,
Rocket goes up,
Flames go down,
Rocket goes up spinns round and round,
Rocket blows up flames fall down.
SpaceX cheers up as newsie gloats abound.
View Quote


Golf clap…
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:34:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fox2008:
Watching the live stream again and took some screenshots.

When SpaceX put the graphics on the screen at 20s it showed 3 engines not running.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_20s_JPG-2789516.jpg

At 29s you can see what looks like flames coming out of the bottom edge of the booster
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_29s_JPG-2789526.jpg

Shortly after you can see debris fly from the bottom of the booster (hard to capture on a screenshot but here is one piece)
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_29-2s_JPG-2789524.jpg

At 40s the 4th engine stops
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_40s_JPG-2789523.jpg

At 62s the 5th engine stops
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_62s_JPG-2789522.jpg

At 102s the 6th engine stops
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_102s_JPG-2789521.jpg

At 111s the 6th engine shows back online, could be a sensor issue???
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/397309/Starship_111s_JPG-2789532.jpg
View Quote

The :29 screenshot looks like those flames (and the subsequent piece of debris) may be from the bottom of the hydraulic power unit.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:35:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By voodochild:
So when's the next SS Heavy launch try?
View Quote
I would guess 4-6 months.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 12:36:55 PM EDT
[#50]
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