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Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:19:34 AM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By Sailboat:
Pictures or source?  Where is everyone getting their info besides SpaceX?
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From NSF. Force of debris blew the back doors in on their van and caved in the rear pillars. They will be posting pics of it soon.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:20:04 AM EDT
[#2]
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Originally Posted By fox2008:

You can see the debris pretty good in this video
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some big chunks of something flying around there, you can get a sense of the scale from the impact they make when they hit the dirt, definely not a couple heat tiles or something small like that.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:20:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By burnka871:



Nsf and lab Padre streams showed it. Looked like it got caved in by debris.
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The suburbans?
I took a picture of them when I was down there.










Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:20:54 AM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By KonamiCode:

Tim Dodd and his lady friend had sand blow all over them and their equipment 5 miles away from the launch site.
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That seems unlikely.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:22:24 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hesperus:
I remember thinking back when it was just a render that it looked like a lousy design.
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Of course it is.  33 engines and no diversion of the exhaust or water deluge system to attenuate the forces.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:23:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LatentUser] [#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


That seems unlikely.
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You could see it happen live on stream.    Now that they're back in the studio, they and their gear are sand/grit covered.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:23:42 AM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


That seems unlikely.
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Well it happened. Look at the feed. They have sand all over their shirts.

Watch SpaceX launch Starship, the biggest rocket ever, LIVE
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:25:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DK-Prof] [#8]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:25:57 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZA206:
I read where they were going to hold it on the launch mount for up to 8 seconds after engine ignition for some reason. I guess to make sure enough engines were running to get it off the pad. They definitely torched the crap outta the pad!!! LOLOLOL!!!

I can't wait to see the stage 0 damage assessment.

-ZA
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They light the engines in clusters which takes like 6 seconds and then maybe another couple to spool up...
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:26:08 AM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Of course it is.  33 engines and no diversion of the exhaust or water deluge system to attenuate the forces.
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Intentional choice a lot have argued over. They probably don't want to deal with the amount of water that would be required for their planned launch tempo.
That may be a expensive poor decision.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:26:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wyorock:
The world needs more people like Elon.  Dreamers who get shit done.
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Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:27:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Watch SpaceX launch Starship, the biggest rocket ever, LIVE
Tim Dodd showing the van that got hit on his stream just a moment ago.

Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:27:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:

Intentional choice a lot have argued over. They probably don't want to deal with the amount of water that would be required for their planned launch tempo.
That may be a expensive poor decision.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Of course it is.  33 engines and no diversion of the exhaust or water deluge system to attenuate the forces.

Intentional choice a lot have argued over. They probably don't want to deal with the amount of water that would be required for their planned launch tempo.
That may be a expensive poor decision.



Rebuilding concrete pads may have gotten it past the enviro-weenies than having to redirect a tremendous amount of water from the area.  
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:28:33 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SparticleBrane:
Some poor schmuck at SpaceX forgot to put a check in the box titled "Allow stage separation"

https://media.tenor.com/JM2Ao2QnqUgAAAAC/mess-up-mundane-detail.gif
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Always check your staging
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:28:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Obo2] [#15]
Wow that wasnt falling concrete that fucked up the van, that was going sideways
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:29:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Video of the van getting hit.


Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:30:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:30:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LatentUser:



Rebuilding concrete pads may have gotten it past the enviro-weenies than having to redirect a tremendous amount of water from the area.  
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Originally Posted By LatentUser:
Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Of course it is.  33 engines and no diversion of the exhaust or water deluge system to attenuate the forces.

Intentional choice a lot have argued over. They probably don't want to deal with the amount of water that would be required for their planned launch tempo.
That may be a expensive poor decision.



Rebuilding concrete pads may have gotten it past the enviro-weenies than having to redirect a tremendous amount of water from the area.  


And the civil engineering work that would be needed to make a full trench and such below the mount. Given the elevation there, that would be non-trivial, and probably need more .gov approvals for that much construction.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:30:28 AM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By TapRackBang45:
Even before that as there was no MECO.
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I noticed that too.

Quite honestly, it didn’t seem to be a “clean” launch. 3 engines down on launch. 3 more shortly after, engines appeared to be eating themselves,  I saw a few hard course corrections, and it appeared to be drifting to the side when it left the tower, yet it kept going. The damn thing quite literally brute forced its way into the upper atmosphere and I love it.

And holy shit it got up there FAST.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:30:30 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chokey:
this was a cool shot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuKWNJoaMAEvCvD?format=png&name=900x900
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7 engines out?  Looks like 2 in the core and 5 on the perimeter.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:31:51 AM EDT
[#21]
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Originally Posted By KonamiCode:
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In that video you can see debris flying as high as the arms! One piece was white, maybe ice, but another large piece was black.  


Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:32:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Direct hit !

Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:32:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:34:11 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hesperus:


Engine rich exhaust?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hesperus:
Originally Posted By AJE:


Should the yellow flames have been there or is that from things burning that are not supposed to be?


Engine rich exhaust?
Engine rich exhaust is usually a bit green.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:35:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:


I'm not sure of that. With the engines out it may not have been able to get the right angle to separate, and was fighting to.

I would think the boost back program wouldn't initiate until separation.
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Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
Originally Posted By Jack_Rackham:
The failure happened when stage separation didn't happen.  The first stage was trying to boost back and couldn't.


I'm not sure of that. With the engines out it may not have been able to get the right angle to separate, and was fighting to.

I would think the boost back program wouldn't initiate until separation.


Looked to me like they had at least one engine refuse to shut down. That would explain the lack of separation.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:35:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
The intentional spin-rotation to get separation is freaky as fuck.

I can understand why they're trying it,  Starship itself is enormous and getting a positive separation from Superheavy using a system that's powerful enough to guarantee a clean separation is probably difficult. Last thing they want is them to separate then collide again.

And I imagine that something powerful enough to ensure Starship is clear, and quickly igniting Starship's Raptors would possibly damage Superheavy, and they obviously want Superheavy back undamaged with minimum refurb required under ideal circumstances.

And I'd guess that the spin separation offers substantial mass savings, if other ejection/separation hardware and it's associated complexity,  wiring, control systems, and oressurized COPV tsnks, etc., can be eliminated, and it just uses the RCS both Superheavy and Starship are carrying anyway. If you can get a "two-fer" out of any particular rocket's system, that's a big win.

But... damn... Even at high altitude way beyond Max-Q you just don't see a full stack bigger than a goddamn Saturn V intentionally flipping end over end like that without it being a disaster/RUD.

Other thoughts...  They got farther, a lot farther, than any Soviet N1 ever did.

Chunks of hot debris, and sporadic flares in the plume indicates several Raptors RUD'ed. But hell... that's insanely robust! The thing's a goddamn tank to have that much go wrong and keep flying. It's like a V8 or V12 ICE engine blowing several valves, 2 cracked pistons, busted rods etc. and keeps on trucking down the freeway.

And the Starship/Superheavy looked significantly off-axis a few times well before the attempt at spin separation too. Most any other rocket would be destroyed. I don't think I've ever seen a launch where so much shit went wrong, but it made it as far as it did.

Superheavy is a beast, a damn dump truck juggernaut.

And some of the engines being off was intentional, as the cycling probably has aspects for keeping some as backup, or unused to keep one fresh for the Superheavy back-burn and hover/landing. Especially one of the center gymbaled ones. But that many on the outer edge being off was probably related to the ones that failed.

Shutting off or cycling engines might also have benefits for payloads substantially smaller than it's maximum capacity, or hitting certain trajectories that doesn't need 100% of the potential thrust. Just having an engine off is probably simpler/safer than messing with throttling.

The turboprop spinning down could be a significant reduction in gyrosopic force the attitude control needs to fight.

And of course, being able to shut engines off and switch others on at-will, autonomously, or as commanded by ground control, is insanely useful in case one or more fails. Some of the flares and unusual things in the exhaust plume might have been shutdowns and startups, and not all CATO/RUD effects.

Honestly, I'm in awe, it was like watching an 18 wheeler intended to make a run from NY to CA, but was on fire, missing several tires, 1/4 of the stuff in the engine was blown, and it still made it halfway into PA.
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I honestly can't even tell if you're trolling.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:36:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Seeing the debris/ejecta from the launch site.... I'm hoping nobody got hurt. I'm thinking there may be extensive damage to some of the stage 0 tankage/infrastructure. I also think videos of some of the vans/trucks getting smashed is crazy and very worrisome.

-ZA
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:37:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dagger41:

It started losing engines in a very short order and you could see them eating themselves on the way up.
They have a lot of work to do to sort that out.
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Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
Stage 0 tested and working. Stack cleared pad and made it past max Q so no show stopper stopper structural issues there. Flight termination systems also tested and working. Good first launch.

It started losing engines in a very short order and you could see them eating themselves on the way up.
They have a lot of work to do to sort that out.


I'd imagine the engines being produced now already have improvements that these didn't. At least they know they whole thing won't blow up or become uncontrollable if they lose a few engines.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:38:32 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
And the Starship/Superheavy looked significantly off-axis a few times well before the attempt at spin separation too. Most any other rocket would be destroyed. I don't think I've ever seen a launch where so much shit went wrong, but it made it as far as it did.

Superheavy is a beast, a damn dump truck juggernaut.

Honestly, I'm in awe, it was like watching an 18 wheeler intended to make a run from NY to CA, but was on fire, missing several tires, 1/4 of the stuff in the engine was blown, and it still made it halfway into PA.
View Quote


While watching it I was thinking this is the rocket version of the A10.

When does it get a rail gun?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:38:41 AM EDT
[#30]
The water tanks took a hit.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:40:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:

Snip

Honestly, I'm in awe, it was like watching an 18 wheeler intended to make a run from NY to CA, but was on fire, missing several tires, 1/4 of the stuff in the engine was blown, and it still made it halfway into PA.
View Quote


Falcon 9 has become the space truck that the Shuttle was hyped as but could never achieved. When they were designing the thing the Shuttle was intended to have a launch cadence of one a week. Clearly Shuttle never achieved that. Falcon 9 pulled that off last year.

SHB was intended from day one to be on a whole other level of durability and reliability. Seeing it go through all that on its first flight was truly impressive.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:40:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZA206:
Seeing the debris/ejecta from the launch site.... I'm hoping nobody got hurt. I'm thinking there may be extensive damage to some of the stage 0 tankage/infrastructure. I also think videos of some of the vans/trucks getting smashed is crazy and very worrisome.

-ZA
View Quote


+1. It should be totally safe to stand under the rocket while it takes off.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:40:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: fox2008] [#33]
The amount of debris in this video is nuts



ETA: One of the comments said this camera was 1100' from the OLM.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:41:37 AM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By jordanmills:

That and they were probably ordered to cheer as long as nobody died.
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Originally Posted By jordanmills:
Originally Posted By Fulcrum-5:
Originally Posted By Jack_Rackham:
I'm so confused. Why cheering?


Mission basically succeeded the second it cleared the launch complex, so SpaceX now has a mountain of data to improve and iterate the next design update.

That and they were probably ordered to cheer as long as nobody died.


Yeah. I'm sure.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:42:52 AM EDT
[#35]
Can’t wait to see the crater!   There was concrete flying everywhere.

I bet some of those dead raptors took concrete hits.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:43:55 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By johnh57:


7 engines out?  Looks like 2 in the core and 5 on the perimeter.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By johnh57:
Originally Posted By Chokey:
this was a cool shot

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuKWNJoaMAEvCvD?format=png&name=900x900


7 engines out?  Looks like 2 in the core and 5 on the perimeter.


1 center and 5 on the outside.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:44:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


I'd imagine the engines being produced now already have improvements that these didn't. At least they know they whole thing won't blow up or become uncontrollable if they lose a few engines.
View Quote

It went out of control because they lost a few engines.
I think we will see a new booster design in the works with 5-9 much larger engines, like super-dooper Raptors or some such thing that produce as much if not more thrust than the 33 engine combination.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:44:42 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JQ66:



Would be neat to work at a place where everyone is so excited and personally invested in the success
But then I have heard that Elon demands a lot of time at work.    Weekends included.  So probably a good bit of burnout
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It's explicitly stated in his job listings.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:45:01 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


lol

Nobody is going to be fired.  

This was an experimental vehicle on its first test flight.

They'll have the next one ready to go in six months, with improvements to the separation system and other systems.  This is how spaceX does it.  Rapid iteration.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Shadyman:
Ok, who’s is going to get fired? Some engineers fucked up royally.


lol

Nobody is going to be fired.  

This was an experimental vehicle on its first test flight.

They'll have the next one ready to go in six months, with improvements to the separation system and other systems.  This is how spaceX does it.  Rapid iteration.

"...everything after it cleared the launch tower was icing on the cake..."
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:45:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZA206:
Seeing the debris/ejecta from the launch site.... I'm hoping nobody got hurt. I'm thinking there may be extensive damage to some of the stage 0 tankage/infrastructure. I also think videos of some of the vans/trucks getting smashed is crazy and very worrisome.

-ZA
View Quote

Camera vans were parked close in. The human perimeter was miles
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:46:19 AM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:47:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: t75fnaco3pwzhd] [#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Direct hit !

View Quote


Wow. I'm betting there's some serious damage to the pad and tank farm
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:48:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fox2008:
The amount of debris in this video is nuts



ETA: One of the comments said this camera was 1100' from the OLM.
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That camera was 1100 ft from the launch site (1/5 of a mile or roughly 350 yards). Holy crap.
Star hopper looks like it was maybe 200 yards from the launch site. I think it probably has holes blown through it.

What's crazy is that large debris was flying almost perfectly horizontal that far away.... not coming in on a rainbow trajectory.

DAMN!!!

-ZA
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:49:24 AM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:49:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: castlebravo84] [#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dagger41:

It went out of control because they lost a few engines.
I think we will see a new booster design in the works with 5-9 much larger engines, like super-dooper Raptors or some such thing that produce as much if not more thrust than the 33 engine combination.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


I'd imagine the engines being produced now already have improvements that these didn't. At least they know they whole thing won't blow up or become uncontrollable if they lose a few engines.

It went out of control because they lost a few engines.
I think we will see a new booster design in the works with 5-9 much larger engines, like super-dooper Raptors or some such thing that produce as much if not more thrust than the 33 engine combination.


As long as they can detect an engine failure in progress and shut it down before it blows up and takes out other stuff, having 33 engines is a huge reliability advantage because they can lose a few of them and still complete the mission and land safely.  If they only had five engines, losing just one would result in the loss of the vehicle.

If the flip to separate maneuver was intentional, I think what went wrong is that the first stage engines didn't shut down to allow separation. Debris from the launch pad and/or shrapnel from an engine explosion might have damaged some of the control systems and left them unable to close valves or whatever they needed to do to shut all the first stage engines down.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:50:37 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:
Video of the van getting hit.


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Now SpaceX has some educational videos of why humans no standey next to rocketey during takeoff.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:51:17 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


lol

Nobody is going to be fired.  

This was an experimental vehicle on its first test flight.

They'll have the next one ready to go in six months, with improvements to the separation system and other systems.  This is how spaceX does it.  Rapid iteration.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Shadyman:
Ok, who’s is going to get fired? Some engineers fucked up royally.


lol

Nobody is going to be fired.  

This was an experimental vehicle on its first test flight.

They'll have the next one ready to go in six months, with improvements to the separation system and other systems.  This is how spaceX does it.  Rapid iteration.


Thank you, I came to post something similar.
The first three are free, always.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:52:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By castlebravo84:


As long as they can detect an engine failure in progress and shut it down before it blows up and takes out other stuff, having 33 engines is a huge reliability advantage because they can lose a few of them and still complete the mission and land safely.  If they only had five engines, losing just one would result in the loss of the vehicle.
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Originally Posted By castlebravo84:
Originally Posted By Dagger41:
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


I'd imagine the engines being produced now already have improvements that these didn't. At least they know they whole thing won't blow up or become uncontrollable if they lose a few engines.

It went out of control because they lost a few engines.
I think we will see a new booster design in the works with 5-9 much larger engines, like super-dooper Raptors or some such thing that produce as much if not more thrust than the 33 engine combination.


As long as they can detect an engine failure in progress and shut it down before it blows up and takes out other stuff, having 33 engines is a huge reliability advantage because they can lose a few of them and still complete the mission and land safely.  If they only had five engines, losing just one would result in the loss of the vehicle.


Didn't the first stage of the Saturn V have 5 engines? And didn't they lose one at least once and still successfully place the payload in orbit?
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:52:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Of course it is.  33 engines and no diversion of the exhaust or water deluge system to attenuate the forces.
View Quote

No, they have a water deluge system. Just looks like they might need to make it bigger and provide some more deflection for all the thrust.
Link Posted: 4/20/2023 10:54:00 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd:


Wow. I'm betting there's some serious damage to the pad and tank farm
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