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Posted: 4/28/2023 1:26:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: woodsie]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ILfreedom: Expected by Elon perhaps. I don't think the FAA are going to see it that way. The rocket was clearly out of control near the end of its flight and could have veered over populated areas before the flight termination explosives were activated. The FAA isn't going to let them launch again until Spacex can guarantee that won't happen. It's sort of their mission. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ILfreedom: Originally Posted By 7: It was quite expected that Starship would blow up on the pad and approvals were given with that in mind. I think once SpaceX is ready, they will launch again. Expected by Elon perhaps. I don't think the FAA are going to see it that way. The rocket was clearly out of control near the end of its flight and could have veered over populated areas before the flight termination explosives were activated. The FAA isn't going to let them launch again until Spacex can guarantee that won't happen. It's sort of their mission. Rockets lose control and blow up every year. Particularly test rockets. Hell, SpaceX themselves has blown up numerous rockets at this point in similar fashion previously and Falcon 9 is flying a couple times a week now. They defined an exclusion zone and if the rocket lost control and blew up within that zone, then I don't see how anyone is going to make any bigger deal out of it than any of their previous tests which resulted in a RUD. The launch pad shattering and spraying concrete everywhere is probably another matter. I could absolutely see that being a show stopper until SpaceX has an adequate corrective action in place. |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 1:31:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fox2008: Musk should announce that he wants to put a black lesbian woman on Mars.....he'll need his own blast shields to protect him from all the money the .gov will through at him.  GD is so transphobic... 
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Posted: 4/28/2023 2:25:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vmpglenn: GD is so transphobic... |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 2:31:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JCoop: I don't see anything in the post that was transphobic. It's the truth. Wokeness guides everything our government does. I do. A lesbian woman is clearly a trans man and should not be dead-named. Get with it, old man... /s |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 4:28:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vmpglenn: I do. A lesbian woman is clearly a trans man and should not be dead-named. Get with it, old man... /s 
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2023 4:35:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mousehunter: They were building a system of water cooled steel plates to protect the concrete before the launch - but had not had time to install it. My humble understanding is was going to be a steel sandwich with water cooling in the center. They believed the active water cooling on the back side of the plate could prevent the front side from melting due to the rockets - with the plates protecting the concrete from the direct fire of the blast. Of course, if the water flash vaporizes - I bet Musk could get a bigga boom. I can not see how heat almost capable of melting steel on one side would not boil water on the other. He is putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. He needs to have outside folks come in and review his systems. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2023 4:40:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ILfreedom: I'm not against Spacex. I'm against this reckless approach that is going to put the whole Artemis program in danger of failure. Artemis is already a woke failure. It is just about putting non-white males on the moon. If it is that important, make the flight that lands on the moon all genetic females. |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 4:42:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: Artemis is already a woke failure. It is just about putting non-white males on the moon. If it is that important, make the flight that lands on the moon all genetic females. On the plus side, it kinda ruins "Whitey on the Moon" Or makes it better maybe |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 4:51:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mousehunter: They were building a system of water cooled steel plates to protect the concrete before the launch - but had not had time to install it. My humble understanding is was going to be a steel sandwich with water cooling in the center. They believed the active water cooling on the back side of the plate could prevent the front side from melting due to the rockets - with the plates protecting the concrete from the direct fire of the blast. Of course, if the water flash vaporizes - I bet Musk could get a bigga boom. I can not see how heat almost capable of melting steel on one side would not boil water on the other. Easy, done every day in the steel industry. Except one side is hotter and is actually, well, melting steel. |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 5:54:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: The entire purpose of Artemis is to put a black woman on the moon. As soon as that goal is accomplished, the US government will suddenly lose ALL interest in manned spaceflight, and will stop funding it. Just watch. New space stations? Human travel to Mars? Permanent human presence outside of Earth? None of that will happen without SpaceX, because NASA will not have the funds for it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By DirkericPitt: Originally Posted By ILfreedom: Were these the same rocket scientist who didn't design and build a flame trench and water deluge system? Elon said they didn't have time to install a method to keep the concrete from flying for hundreds of meters and damage the OLM. Was Elon on a clock to launch? Except a self imposed one. I'm not against Spacex. I'm against this reckless approach that is going to put the whole Artemis program in danger of failure. Also, the main goal of the Aremis program is stupid. We shouldn't be trying to go back to the moon. The only good thing will be gateway, however that should be the priority. We should be constructing a huge space station, with tons of capabilities. Sure it might be useful to go to the moon a couple times, but we need a station with artificial gravity, shielding, and very long term habitation. Should have huge fuel storage, many, many docking stations, and large construction facilities for assembling new spacecraft. That should be the priority, with the longer term goal of another station near the asteroid belt. The entire purpose of Artemis is to put a black woman on the moon. As soon as that goal is accomplished, the US government will suddenly lose ALL interest in manned spaceflight, and will stop funding it. Just watch. New space stations? Human travel to Mars? Permanent human presence outside of Earth? None of that will happen without SpaceX, because NASA will not have the funds for it. We need a 2 prong approach. Flags and footprints to maintain public interest in space. Nuts and bolts solutions to expand slowly and surely, and eventually colonize. |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 6:32:04 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 4/28/2023 6:59:39 PM EDT
[#12]
  
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Posted: 4/28/2023 10:08:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Definitely not wasting any time staring at the wreckage.
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Posted: 4/28/2023 10:10:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macpherson: I have to say I'm surprised at the scale of the damage to the whole site. This was not a minor miscalculation, and considering that it cost them what probably would have been a flawless launch test otherwise, it is a pretty uncharacteristic blunder for SpaceX. Someone told me that “their flame trench is 360 degrees. There is just as much room between the rocket and the regular flame trenches.” It blew my mind. They didn’t plan on the heat cooking the concrete, boiling its moisture and it literally exploded upwards. Then digging under the other The static fire didn’t do it. |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 10:14:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mousehunter: They were building a system of water cooled steel plates to protect the concrete before the launch - but had not had time to install it. My humble understanding is was going to be a steel sandwich with water cooling in the center. They believed the active water cooling on the back side of the plate could prevent the front side from melting due to the rockets - with the plates protecting the concrete from the direct fire of the blast. Of course, if the water flash vaporizes - I bet Musk could get a bigga boom. I can not see how heat almost capable of melting steel on one side would not boil water on the other. 1lb of Water starting 200 then to 212F= ((( 12 BTU’s ))) 1lb of water 212-213F= ((( 970BTU’s ))) Water flashing to steam IS the cooling process. People don’t think the latent heat of vaporization be like it is. But it do. |
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Posted: 4/28/2023 10:16:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: 1lb of Water starting 200 then to 212F= ((( 12 BTU’s ))) 1lb of water 212-213F= ((( 970BTU’s ))) Water flashing to steam IS the cooling process. People don’t think the latent heat of vaporization be like it is. But it do. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: Originally Posted By mousehunter: They were building a system of water cooled steel plates to protect the concrete before the launch - but had not had time to install it. My humble understanding is was going to be a steel sandwich with water cooling in the center. They believed the active water cooling on the back side of the plate could prevent the front side from melting due to the rockets - with the plates protecting the concrete from the direct fire of the blast. Of course, if the water flash vaporizes - I bet Musk could get a bigga boom. I can not see how heat almost capable of melting steel on one side would not boil water on the other. 1lb of Water starting 200 then to 212F= ((( 12 BTU’s ))) 1lb of water 212-213F= ((( 970BTU’s ))) Water flashing to steam IS the cooling process. People don’t think the latent heat of vaporization be like it is. But it do. You just gave me vapor dome flashbacks. Like I'm not having enough nightmares lately. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 12:23:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TacticalGarand44: You just gave me vapor dome flashbacks. Like I'm not having enough nightmares lately. thing is for me its just an HVAC thing from trade school. this chart kind of gets beaten into you.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 1:46:58 AM EDT
[#18]
water flashing to steam in an open container - cooling
water flashing to steam in a closed, unvented system - pressure. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 2:43:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Yobro512]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mousehunter: water flashing to steam in an open container - cooling water flashing to steam in a closed, unvented system - pressure. Why would you assume it’s non-vented? I’d assume that’s the whole point is to quench the steel using the latent heat of vaporization. I braze a 2” pipe at 1000F one foot away I have someone constantly pour water on a rag. The other side of that pipe will never get above 212F so long as there is liquid water present in the rag. I understand this might cause a Chernobyl ish steam explosion done incorrectly. But I assumed they use the latent heat rather than some pissant “duh water is like super cold, like 40F” How could it function any other way? FYI this is also how engine chill works and why rocket engines don’t melt in most iterations. You guys know this though. I’m just tired. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 10:46:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoseCuervo: Is water now an environmental hazard? One of the Problems that high end datacenters have to deal with is that they intake water for cooling, change nothing about it except for its temperature, and are not allowed to eject the water again unless they remove all impurities that were already in the water in the first place. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 10:47:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ILfreedom: Expected by Elon perhaps. I don't think the FAA are going to see it that way. The rocket was clearly out of control near the end of its flight and could have veered over populated areas before the flight termination explosives were activated. The FAA isn't going to let them launch again until Spacex can guarantee that won't happen. It's sort of their mission. TL;DR: you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 10:49:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By J_Von_Random: One of the Problems that high end datacenters have to deal with is that they intake water for cooling, change nothing about it except for its temperature, and are not allowed to eject the water again unless they remove all impurities that were already in the water in the first place. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By J_Von_Random: Originally Posted By JoseCuervo: Is water now an environmental hazard? One of the Problems that high end datacenters have to deal with is that they intake water for cooling, change nothing about it except for its temperature, and are not allowed to eject the water again unless they remove all impurities that were already in the water in the first place. Sigh, why am I not in the least bit surprised to hear that? 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 11:41:08 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: 1lb of Water starting 200 then to 212F= ((( 12 BTU's ))) 1lb of water 212-213F= ((( 970BTU's ))) Water flashing to steam IS the cooling process. People don't think the latent heat of vaporization be like it is. But it do. Liquid water transporting heat out of the plates is probably the solution. Boiling in your car's radiator is a bad thing. Heat transfer can be heavily counterintuitive because the difference between heat transfer as energy transfer per unit time and overall temperature rise of the cooling fluid is easily confounded. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 12:00:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Houstons_Problem]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: Why would you assume it's non-vented? I'd assume that's the whole point is to quench the steel using the latent heat of vaporization. I braze a 2" pipe at 1000F one foot away I have someone constantly pour water on a rag. The other side of that pipe will never get above 212F so long as there is liquid water present in the rag. I understand this might cause a Chernobyl ish steam explosion done incorrectly. But I assumed they use the latent heat rather than some pissant "duh water is like super cold, like 40F" How could it function any other way? FYI this is also how engine chill works and why rocket engines don't melt in most iterations. You guys know this though. I'm just tired. Power plants have water walls in the combustion chamber portion of the boiler. Flashing to steam happens elsewhere in the steam drum after the water reaches the top of the water walls at the top of the boiler. The water remaining in the steam drum is recirculated back to the water walls and the steam that boils out of the water in the steam drum steam drum is sent to the superheater which is further downstream in the combustion gas flue. The steam is then superheated from wet steam to superheated dry steam before sending to the turbine. The steam also removes heat from the combustion gases but the temperatures are not as high in that portion of the boiler. Simple diagram of boiler and steam drum in link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_drum Bottom line is liquid is better at cooling than gas because liquid is denser than gas. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 12:05:46 PM EDT
[#25]
I’m sure once SpaceX assembles / installs the thing some questions will get answered.
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Posted: 4/29/2023 12:45:26 PM EDT
[#26]
As for the FAA review, and when will the Gov't allow SpaceX to launch again... I actually think it's a valid question.
Not because it should be, but because of the Politics of it. Elon has made enemies, and it has showed in previous approvals. Sure, they (probably) can't stop it, but they CAN slow it to a crawl, and make him write another essay about the Mexican American War before they allow it again. I've become somewhat cynical, but that's the fear. I'll also point out that the FAA, in particular, has struggled with what to do with issues when powerful politicians have opinions. I believe (it was the last time I checked) the investigation into Former Senator Inhofe's son's fatal crash is still open, even though it is very clear that it was pilot error. Everyone just assumed that they'd eventually close it when Inhofe was no longer in Congress (and that may be true, he's only been out of office a few months). To be clear, this was a successful test and any FAA investigation should be cursory and short. But there are politics involved, and the left now hates Elon with the heat of a thousand suns, so... |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 3:27:06 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 4/29/2023 3:29:49 PM EDT
[#28]
press pit at Starbase
 
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Posted: 4/29/2023 3:48:59 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 4/29/2023 4:33:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Houstons_Problem: Think about that example. Someone is constantly adding liquid water to the rag. You want the rag to stay wet. If you let the water boil away you have lost the ability to remove the heat. Power plants have water walls in the combustion chamber portion of the boiler. Flashing to steam happens elsewhere in the steam drum after the water reaches the top of the water walls at the top of the boiler. The water remaining in the steam drum is recirculated back to the water walls and the steam that boils out of the water in the steam drum steam drum is sent to the superheater which is further downstream in the combustion gas flue. The steam is then superheated from wet steam to superheated dry steam before sending to the turbine. The steam also removes heat from the combustion gases but the temperatures are not as high in that portion of the boiler. Simple diagram of boiler and steam drum in link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_drum Bottom line is liquid is better at cooling than gas because liquid is denser than gas. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Houstons_Problem: Originally Posted By Yobro512: Why would you assume it's non-vented? I'd assume that's the whole point is to quench the steel using the latent heat of vaporization. I braze a 2" pipe at 1000F one foot away I have someone constantly pour water on a rag. The other side of that pipe will never get above 212F so long as there is liquid water present in the rag. I understand this might cause a Chernobyl ish steam explosion done incorrectly. But I assumed they use the latent heat rather than some pissant "duh water is like super cold, like 40F" How could it function any other way? FYI this is also how engine chill works and why rocket engines don't melt in most iterations. You guys know this though. I'm just tired. Power plants have water walls in the combustion chamber portion of the boiler. Flashing to steam happens elsewhere in the steam drum after the water reaches the top of the water walls at the top of the boiler. The water remaining in the steam drum is recirculated back to the water walls and the steam that boils out of the water in the steam drum steam drum is sent to the superheater which is further downstream in the combustion gas flue. The steam is then superheated from wet steam to superheated dry steam before sending to the turbine. The steam also removes heat from the combustion gases but the temperatures are not as high in that portion of the boiler. Simple diagram of boiler and steam drum in link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_drum Bottom line is liquid is better at cooling than gas because liquid is denser than gas. I think we are talking about the same thing because something like that diagram is exactly what I’d imagine. I’m just not an engineer. Water reservoir>>> water pump(#strong pump lol)>>>> check valve(also #strong) >>>>> Heat exchanger >>>> steam relief blowing out the side somewhere. Idk. The magic is the latent heat of phase change. Like a pot of boiling water keeping the pot from glowing red. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 6:04:31 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 4/29/2023 7:33:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Chokey]
[#32]
some of the snippets so far
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USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 7:46:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Interesting
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USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:02:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#34]
ETA One of the comments says that Elon said only 1 engine lost comms at T+27
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:19:11 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:19:47 PM EDT
[#36]
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USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:22:23 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm picking June 28th for flight 2.
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USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:26:09 PM EDT
[#38]
 Elon Musk SpaceX Post Starship ITF Briefing - Twitter Spaces |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:26:53 PM EDT
[#39]
He has a lot of faith in his and his people’s ability to address this ‘rock tornado’ problem, promptly.
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:39:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: He has a lot of faith in his and his people's ability to address this 'rock tornado' problem, promptly. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:39:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: He has a lot of faith in his and his people's ability to address this 'rock tornado' problem, promptly. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:47:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#42]
Elon confirmed in there that the steel plates will also be deluge and spray water upwards like a shower head. Water pressure will need to be greater than pressure from rocket. Seems like maybe a combo of regenerative and transpirational cooling and some deluge all in one.
"It's a beast" - Elon |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 8:57:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fu53tsHWcAEkQk4?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 I wonder how he's getting clearance to fly over the launch pad. My pilot was getting bitched at to stay 1-2 miles away. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:08:15 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RyanEsstac: I wonder how he's getting clearance to fly over the launch pad. My pilot was getting bitched at to stay 1-2 miles away.
https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_4341.html |
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SYC
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:11:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mousehunter: water flashing to steam in an open container - cooling water flashing to steam in a closed, unvented system - pressure. I dont expect a closed pressurized system. If you are going to pump water through plates under the pad to cool them you may as well shoot some of it towards the flamey bits for sound suppression as well. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:14:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: I dont expect a closed pressurized system. If you are going to pump water through plates under the pad to cool them you may as well shoot some of it towards the flamey bits for sound suppression as well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: Originally Posted By mousehunter: water flashing to steam in an open container - cooling water flashing to steam in a closed, unvented system - pressure. I dont expect a closed pressurized system. If you are going to pump water through plates under the pad to cool them you may as well shoot some of it towards the flamey bits for sound suppression as well. They're going to need one hell of a heat rejecter if they're going closed system. Maybe this is the excuse Elon needs to get permission for a nuke plant, to provide power for a desalination plant. And while he's at it, he can open a table salt company with all his free time. |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:15:37 PM EDT
[#47]
drawing from ryan hansen and CSI starbase. this is based on shit they have seen on site at Starbase already.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:17:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yobro512]
[#48]
 Attached Filei guess we are seeing the water inlet. the heat exchanger then the steam jets on the outside to help with sound vibrations i guess. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:36:58 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/446393/Regen_cooler_jpg-2800489.JPG i guess we are seeing the water inlet. the heat exchanger then the steam jets on the outside to help with sound vibrations i guess.
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Posted: 4/29/2023 9:50:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: I dont expect a closed pressurized system. If you are going to pump water through plates under the pad to cool them you may as well shoot some of it towards the flamey bits for sound suppression as well.  |
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