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Posted: 9/11/2024 6:28:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Maybe they should just launch without a catch attempt.
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Posted: 9/11/2024 6:51:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hadrian: Maybe they should just launch without a catch attempt. They could do that. Just drop the booster in the Gulf again. But I don't think Elon wants to. Catching an orbital rocket booster is going to be one heck of an achievement and they are putting a lot of work into making it happen. If they can make it work reliably then we go from having a Ford F-150 space truck to a Peterbuilt. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 7:11:52 PM EDT
[#3]
FAA is saying that piss-poor planning on SpaceX part does not constitute an emergency on their part.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2024 7:38:43 PM EDT
[#4]
 Wanderers - a short film by Erik Wernquist [Official Version] I’ll just leave this here. So impatient to get started - I’d like to live long enough to know that the first human baby was born on Mars; a little sad I won’t be part of the greatest adventure in history. Let’s get off this rock and get going! |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 7:45:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JCoop]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: FAA is saying that piss-poor planning on SpaceX part does not constitute an emergency on their part. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 7:48:18 PM EDT
[#6]
I have to be fair. You can’t make a major change late in the game and not expect this.
And I am someone who gives the feds a huge measure of shit regularly. |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 9:03:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: I have to be fair. You can't make a major change late in the game and not expect this. And I am someone who gives the feds a huge measure of shit regularly. Nick |
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Posted: 9/11/2024 9:35:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Wonder what the FAA actually reviews. Are they looking into the actual structural assessment? Thermodynamic analysis? Aerodynamic modeling? Do they even have technical people capable of auditing space / launch vehicles.
It would seem noise, exhaust, etc ought to be pretty proportional to previous launches. Beyond fixing the misplaced decimals in the mercury content of the water tests, what more do they need? Elon better be submitting the #6 vehicle into the approvement cycle pdq. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 6:17:05 AM EDT
[#9]
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IN, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 6:34:54 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: I have to be fair. You can’t make a major change late in the game and not expect this. And I am someone who gives the feds a huge measure of shit regularly. That makes no sense. It is an experimental vehicle. The whole point of the thing is to shoot it off, figure out what changes to make, then fire off another. If you pass a milestone in one flight, then of course you start shooting for the next one. If there isn't major change between each launch, then what are they doing? How can they know what works unless they try it? |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 7:24:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Commando_Guy: Late in the game? Elon stated, after the IFT4 booster soft landed, same day that they were going to try for catch on IFT5. How much more do they need? Nick He needed to put it in writing and submit it to the proper department that oversees permitting. Just verbalizing it wasn’t enough. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:05:34 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: He needed to put it in writing and submit it to the proper department that oversees permitting. Just verbalizing it wasn’t enough. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: He needed to put it in writing and submit it to the proper department that oversees permitting. Just verbalizing it wasn’t enough. From SpaceX Sep 10 update This is a more than two-month delay to the previously communicated date of mid-September. This delay was not based on a new safety concern, but instead driven by superfluous environmental analysis. Notice that the FAA didn't provide any transparency into what parts of the application are causing the delay. They certainly didn't say that their experts are so busy validating the technical aspects of the flight profile change that they will now need an additional two months. Nor did they refute any of the allegations that this delay is due entirely to ridiculous environmental review timelines. Instead they gaslight SpaceX for having the audacity to -gasp- change some aspect of their test flight. Should it take 60 days, best case, to have someone determine that the jettisoned hot staging ring still has a miniscule chance of landing on a whales head because it's going to be at slightly different coordinates? Again, does it take 60 days to figure out that a sonic boom from the returning booster doesn't cause anymore disturbance than when it was firing 33 engines on ascent a few mins earlier? There's no change to how the water deluge system is being operated, yet, they now need an additional permit for that? |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:06:19 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: He needed to put it in writing and submit it to the proper department that oversees permitting. Just verbalizing it wasn’t enough. Agreed. Launching the rocket is one thing, trying to catch it is another. I’m not for government bureaucracy, but this should have been expected with adding the catch to the flight plan. I’m sure Biden/Kamala are in no hurry to do anything for Elon, as I’m sure they hate his ass. If T$ wins the election, I can’t wait to see if he lets SpaceX off the leash! That would be awesome! |
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USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:22:37 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Commando_Guy: Late in the game? Elon stated, after the IFT4 booster soft landed, same day that they were going to try for catch on IFT5. How much more do they need? Nick They will say with a straight face that they need 6 months or more. That is the issue at hand. They think that is a quick turn. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:40:55 AM EDT
[#15]
If I were Elon, I'd be submitting parallel proposals for BOTH no changes AND booster catch, then fly with whatever comes first. I'd also be submitting a monthly request for whatever the latest approved launch was. When FAA cant keep up, then start pushing the Congress and DoD to apply pressure.
If they learn from every flight, its better to fly one without changes while waiting for the changed plan approval. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:24:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dtrosch: If I were Elon, I'd be submitting parallel proposals for BOTH no changes AND booster catch, then fly with whatever comes first. I'd also be submitting a monthly request for whatever the latest approved launch was. When FAA cant keep up, then start pushing the Congress and DoD to apply pressure. If they learn from every flight, its better to fly one without changes while waiting for the changed plan approval. They are at the end of their version 1 boosters. Deciding now to fly the same profile as before would give them limited new booster data vs waiting two more months. it may have been a different decision process if SpaceX knew how long a different application would take immediately after flight 4. Also, if you watch the last CSI starbase episode, there's speculation that some tweaks to trajectory and how they conduct the hot staging has already fixed some of the engine relight issues they have had. My guess is that they find some other parameters that needed to change and that is why the drop area for the hot staging ring is different which is triggering the FAA to do an entire environmental impact review for it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:42:52 PM EDT
[#17]
The environmental impact of doing an environmental impact statement on these rocket launches causes extra unjustified harm to the environment with no possible benefit.
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: johnh57]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DarkGray: They are at the end of their version 1 boosters. Deciding now to fly the same profile as before would give them limited new booster data vs waiting two more months. it may have been a different decision process if SpaceX knew how long a different application would take immediately after flight 4. Also, if you watch the last CSI starbase episode, there's speculation that some tweaks to trajectory and how they conduct the hot staging has already fixed some of the engine relight issues they have had. My guess is that they find some other parameters that needed to change and that is why the drop area for the hot staging ring is different which is triggering the FAA to do an entire environmental impact review for it. Just found the csi starbase channel today. Watched a video on how they use the raptor engines to pressurize the lox / fuel tanks. I'm astonished they don't use pure oxygen to pressurize the lox tanks. The csi vid estimated they end up with something like 4 tons of dry ice and water ice contaminating the lox tank by the time they reach first stage cutoff. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:20:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DirkericPitt: They will say with a straight face that they need 6 months or more. That is the issue at hand. They think that is a quick turn. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DirkericPitt: Originally Posted By Commando_Guy: Late in the game? Elon stated, after the IFT4 booster soft landed, same day that they were going to try for catch on IFT5. How much more do they need? Nick They will say with a straight face that they need 6 months or more. That is the issue at hand. They think that is a quick turn. They need to swing their dicks around a little bit to remind everyone they are still in charge. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 12:19:08 AM EDT
[#20]
They need all these studies at starbase yet (FAA or whatever govt) pretty much know the effects and are not bothered with operations on the NASA facilities and the ajoining space force base in the Cape in Florida.
The Shuttle with SRB's caused more harm to the enviroment than Starship it would seem. And shuttle launched whenever it was readty? |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 2:35:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Maybe it's time to build a bridge over the Rio Grande and a launch facility on the other side, just sayin. The bribes would be a fraction of what it costs now in lawyers.
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Posted: 9/13/2024 2:41:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Fulcrum-5]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cobalt135: They need all these studies at starbase yet (FAA or whatever govt) pretty much know the effects and are not bothered with operations on the NASA facilities and the ajoining space force base in the Cape in Florida. The Shuttle with SRB's caused more harm to the enviroment than Starship it would seem. And shuttle launched whenever it was readty? The FAA has limited capability to annoy NASA, and none at all to mess with DOD. Government launch, from Government Facilities? They do what they want. I suspect that the lack of NASA (and DOD/USSF) simply bringing Starship in as an official POR that launches from Canaveral is due to: a) NASA knows that Starship isn't the critical pathway item that's driving the rightward drift of the Artemis schedule.. and b) They are leery of testing out the landing phase (catch, etc) at LC-39A, lest there be a BOOM. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 9/13/2024 6:29:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gamma762: Maybe it's time to build a bridge over the Rio Grande and a launch facility on the other side, just sayin. The bribes would be a fraction of what it costs now in lawyers. What about the non-zero chance that Mexico just up and nationalizes the launch facilities and craft at some point? |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 9:35:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gamma762: Maybe it's time to build a bridge over the Rio Grande and a launch facility on the other side, just sayin. The bribes would be a fraction of what it costs now in lawyers. Can't be done because ITAR. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 9:58:38 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Can't be done because ITAR. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By Gamma762: Maybe it's time to build a bridge over the Rio Grande and a launch facility on the other side, just sayin. The bribes would be a fraction of what it costs now in lawyers. Can't be done because ITAR. I wonder if Musk has regretted selling the oil rigs. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 10:05:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Can't be done because ITAR. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By Gamma762: Maybe it's time to build a bridge over the Rio Grande and a launch facility on the other side, just sayin. The bribes would be a fraction of what it costs now in lawyers. Can't be done because ITAR. All ITAR means is you need permits. We export F-35s. It could be done if the will was strong enough. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 1:25:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: All ITAR means is you need permits. We export F-35s. It could be done if the will was strong enough. If the will was strong enough, there wouldn't be a discussion as to the merits of moving starbase to Mexico. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 1:29:33 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 9/13/2024 3:39:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: All ITAR means is you need permits. We export F-35s. It could be done if the will was strong enough. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By Gamma762: Maybe it's time to build a bridge over the Rio Grande and a launch facility on the other side, just sayin. The bribes would be a fraction of what it costs now in lawyers. Can't be done because ITAR. All ITAR means is you need permits. We export F-35s. It could be done if the will was strong enough. Sure, but the problem right now (and the reason people even mentioned going outside the US) is that government regulation is fucking with SpaceX. Government regulation would fuck FAR MORE with him on ITAR issues if he tried to set up operations outside the US. After all, the fucking he is getting from the FAA is about relatively trivial and silly issues. Imagine how hard he would get it when it's actual national security issues at play. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 4:02:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Sure, but the problem right now (and the reason people even mentioned going outside the US) is that government regulation is fucking with SpaceX. Government regulation would fuck FAR MORE with him on ITAR issues if he tried to set up operations outside the US. After all, the fucking he is getting from the FAA is about relatively trivial and silly issues. Imagine how hard he would get it when it's actual national security issues at play. This is a silly but serious question. What if Musk and his employees all said fuck it and went to Mexico, renounced their US citizenship, became Mexicans and started from scratch? Could ITAR fuck with them then? |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 4:29:24 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigGrumpyBear: This is a silly but serious question. What if Musk and his employees all said fuck it and went to Mexico, renounced their US citizenship, became Mexicans and started from scratch? Could ITAR fuck with them then? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigGrumpyBear: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Sure, but the problem right now (and the reason people even mentioned going outside the US) is that government regulation is fucking with SpaceX. Government regulation would fuck FAR MORE with him on ITAR issues if he tried to set up operations outside the US. After all, the fucking he is getting from the FAA is about relatively trivial and silly issues. Imagine how hard he would get it when it's actual national security issues at play. This is a silly but serious question. What if Musk and his employees all said fuck it and went to Mexico, renounced their US citizenship, became Mexicans and started from scratch? Could ITAR fuck with them then? I don't really know. Obviously, they'd lose all of their DoD contracts immediately. They'd presumably lose access to all of the launch sites on US government property (both the Kennedy Space Center and the Cape Canaveral Air Force base), and the one on the West Coast. That's a lot of infrastructure they'd have to rebuild. I am not sure how much technology of theirs might partly "belong" to the US government, if it was partly funded by DoD or NASA contracts. It would be a total shitshow, that's for sure.  ... and who knows how hard the US government might try to fuck with other Musk companies, like Tesla, Starlink and X, just to mention the most obvious ones. To me, it would be interesting if DoD would start to throw it's weight around behind the scenes, if Elon looked like he wanted to bail because of stupid politicians fucking with him. Even though Elon's goal is to go to Mars, the military implications of easily mass-produced Starships is obviously HUGE, and losing that gigantic advantage would make the Pentagon very unhappy. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 4:34:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hadrian: I wonder if Musk has regretted selling the oil rigs. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 4:42:53 PM EDT
[#33]
A scorched earth solution.
Start new companies in other, more amenable countries. Transfer what assets can be to the new companies. Transfer IP to other companies. After all, they are just ideas. Hollow out all US companies and go bankrupt. All employees get new jobs overseas. Start operations with the latest iterations of equipment. Register all new developments with the friendly countries. US gov throws a fit and tries to bring it all back or arrest key people. US gov realizes the golden goose needed to be treated better. That goose is cooked. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 5:06:23 PM EDT
[#34]
He is going to eventually have to set up extra launch sites in other countries so he will have to deal with ITAR.
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Posted: 9/13/2024 5:28:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: He is going to eventually have to set up extra launch sites in other countries so he will have to deal with ITAR. There are plans to recover Starships for examination after water landings in Australia. No further details are forthcoming except that will involve ITAR in some context. It would be neat if he could build a tower there, ship in a few boosters and send them back to Boca Chica that way. But the second Starship launch site will certainly be in Florida. After that, who knows how long it will take for a tower in a foreign country? |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 7:57:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shooter_gregg: They were too small. A better solution would be a design from the keel up to serve the purpose. Maybe a jack up rig or a barge like for falcon 9. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shooter_gregg: Originally Posted By Hadrian: I wonder if Musk has regretted selling the oil rigs.  Elonville |
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Posted: 9/14/2024 10:33:48 PM EDT
[#37]
I think he should build a bridge from Star Factory way out into the gulf wide enough for two-way traffic.
Have several branches on the right with launch pads at the end of it, and several branches on the left with recovery pads at the end of it. Hell, since he likes X's so much he could put an X shape at the end of each branch so each branch could launch or catch 4 at a time No water deluge system. No turtle relocation efforts needed. And if a launch goes bad or they miss a catch, it ain't splodin' all over poor sea turtles and Star Base. |
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Posted: 9/15/2024 12:29:15 AM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 9/15/2024 12:51:02 AM EDT
[#39]
Save this for an update in another 18 years
 Attached File |
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Posted: 9/17/2024 11:10:23 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 9/17/2024 2:46:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Chokey]
[#41]
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Posted: 9/17/2024 6:21:44 PM EDT
[#42]
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SC, USA
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Posted: 9/17/2024 6:25:28 PM EDT
[#43]
FAA is going to fuck around and Elon is going to move production and launch to another country.
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Posted: 9/17/2024 6:29:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXs_GY4XkAAX3lv?format=jpg&name=medium Is that a spacex sanctioned adventure or is someone trying to score material for reverse engineering? |
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Posted: 9/17/2024 6:31:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wangstang]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By atavistic: FAA is going to fuck around and Elon is going to move production and launch to another country. I suspect they can hold him up ITAR related red tape unless he can somehow clean slate restart somewhere else. Since they aren't seeking patents for new designs and are keeping a good bit of the IP open to the public it may not be to hard to restart. The getting the manufacturing equipment and raw materials to a new location maybe the bigger challenge. |
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Posted: 9/17/2024 6:45:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Amazingly, no Starliner fines for Boeing! The FAA space division is harassing SpaceX about nonsense that doesn’t affect safety while giving a free pass to Boeing even after NASA concluded that their spacecraft was not safe enough to bring back the astronauts. There need to be resignations from the FAA leadership. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 9/17/2024 6:58:47 PM EDT
[#47]
FAA is doing their best to ensure the Moon is Chinese.
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Posted: 9/17/2024 7:13:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SSG-69: FAA is doing their best to ensure the Moon is Chinese. |
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Posted: 9/17/2024 7:49:31 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SSG-69: FAA is doing their best to ensure the Moon is Chinese.  |
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Posted: 9/17/2024 8:01:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Curious, was the FAA controlling NASA's launches in the late 50's and 60's? Mercury, Gemini, Apollo Programs? If not, when did FAA start interfering with space launches?
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