User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/24/2022 10:49:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 100% If you're in Georgia/SC/NC or whatever, this is a friendly call out to join us at monthly 2gun competitions. The 2 guns do more for actual equipment training than cola wars, because Cola War ranges are generally shot from a single position for rifle and handgun. 2 gun matches will have you moving, using cover and reloading on the fly. Plus any of us there will gladly hand you equipment to try. What works for me, doesn't necessarily work for everyone and vice versa. Get out, shoot, move, and practice with your gear. For me personally, I'm currently running a Steiner 5x prism (I like the reticle better than ACOG plus a little more mag) with a top mounted dot on my go to gun. It'll get a Steiner MPS(enclosed dot) when I can afford it. Redwolf 2 Gun Challenge Dec. 4th Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I did a felony warrant service tonight on a guy that got into an argument with his girlfriend and threatened to kill any cops that showed up. I've shot in my plates a bunch of times. I've shot my carbine a bunch. I occasionally shoot in plates with a carbine. I wear my NODS a few times a month. I hunt or shoot a carbine under NODS a handful of times a year. But I realized tonight that it's VERY rare that I put on my medical fanny pack, plate carrier, ballistic helmet, NVG's, and use a carbine for exterior security and then go into a structure with a bunch of guys and gals waving around white light. I'm sure I looked cool, and I know I had the coolest toys on scene, but making all that shit work fluidly together (by carbine sling kept trying to knock my body cam off the magnet mount), was a complete cluster fuck. What I'm saying is that every optical sighting system has strengths and weaknesses. 90% of the time, unless you're a cola wars competitor or an active duty armed forces member with a shooter MOS, chances are, YOU are the weakest link in your performance, not the equipment you carry. I took a carbine class a few weeks ago and beat a group of about a dozen non-shooter type cops. At the end, they were like, "HKUSP9 won the end of class shooting competition because he has a LPVO and a break on his gun", and in my head I was like, "I almost LOST that fucking shoot because I knew I was going to go from standing to prone as soon as the buzzer went off and I didn't have my sling loose enough and had to fuck with it to get into position and I tried to take some 15 yard carbine shots with my LPVO still on 4 power." I beat the other guys because I had trained more than them, NOT because I had a fancy optic. Arguably, I probably would have shot a couple of seconds faster and still with acceptable accuracy if I was running just a regular dot. Moral of the story, the optic that every one of you already own is good enough, what we generally all lack is regular, physically strenuous training with all of our equipment under realistic scenarios. 100% If you're in Georgia/SC/NC or whatever, this is a friendly call out to join us at monthly 2gun competitions. The 2 guns do more for actual equipment training than cola wars, because Cola War ranges are generally shot from a single position for rifle and handgun. 2 gun matches will have you moving, using cover and reloading on the fly. Plus any of us there will gladly hand you equipment to try. What works for me, doesn't necessarily work for everyone and vice versa. Get out, shoot, move, and practice with your gear. For me personally, I'm currently running a Steiner 5x prism (I like the reticle better than ACOG plus a little more mag) with a top mounted dot on my go to gun. It'll get a Steiner MPS(enclosed dot) when I can afford it. Redwolf 2 Gun Challenge Dec. 4th |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2022 11:03:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mike, I'm just going to say it bro, because you might not realize it "you're an extraordinary shooter."  Look at you, you took the time to figure all of that out. Lucas is kind of selling the ACOG as this "turn-key" optic for the average civilian to plug and play with, but it's not exactly. Trijicon needs to pay attention to the civilian market for their ACOG and start giving us reticles that apply to common civilians like those for M193 at various barrel lengths like the common 16" and the popular 11.5, and 12.5. Social media and the time are suddenly turning to Trijicon's favor here, they could start selling civilian ACOGs like crazy if they did a few things differently. Counting Coup (Fred) had some good advice for them awhile back about making a MIL reticle available for the ACOG. Meanwhile, the guys at Trijicon are probably completely clueless about this social media shift. M193 only frags to like 100m from a 16" barrel. There's really no need for a specialized BDC. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2022 11:05:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish someone would make a lightweight, Fixed Power 6X Scope, designed to work in conjunction with a RMR. It would be lighter and cheaper than a LPVO, and could probably be better optimized for eye relief then a 1-6. AUG with 3X fixed power scope + dot; think this but with a 6X in the form factor of a Razor or March F, for an AR. https://i.ibb.co/c8SgPCk/4950969.jpg The ELCAN SpecterOS6x is what you seek but they won't sell it to civilians |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2022 11:09:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was way ahead of the curve back in 2006... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/68413/middy_8-10-2006_0002-2612154.jpg Not with that light 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2022 11:35:55 PM EDT
[#5]
He’s right as usual but in a somewhat limited sense. If I ever get a long range battle rifle it would be better with. LPVO.
The AUG is the best host for the ACOG. Fact. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 12:23:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: M193 only frags to like 100m from a 16" barrel. There's really no need for a specialized BDC. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Mike, I'm just going to say it bro, because you might not realize it "you're an extraordinary shooter." Look at you, you took the time to figure all of that out. Lucas is kind of selling the ACOG as this "turn-key" optic for the average civilian to plug and play with, but it's not exactly. Trijicon needs to pay attention to the civilian market for their ACOG and start giving us reticles that apply to common civilians like those for M193 at various barrel lengths like the common 16" and the popular 11.5, and 12.5. Social media and the time are suddenly turning to Trijicon's favor here, they could start selling civilian ACOGs like crazy if they did a few things differently. Counting Coup (Fred) had some good advice for them awhile back about making a MIL reticle available for the ACOG. Meanwhile, the guys at Trijicon are probably completely clueless about this social media shift. M193 only frags to like 100m from a 16" barrel. There's really no need for a specialized BDC. Who is limiting themselves to FMJ ammo? Plenty of good options that aren’t reliant on fragmentation at various weights. But better fit a m193 reticle. -Mike |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 12:51:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He’s right as usual but in a somewhat limited sense. If I ever get a long range battle rifle it would be better with. LPVO. The AUG is the best host for the ACOG. Fact. With the Corvus direct mount rail, its definitely the best for the piggy back setup as it can get the RMR much lower. Also eliminating the mount saves a few ozs.  JP Rifles used to make an Upper that had the same style of integral ACOG groove - I'd love to see another AR company bring that back.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 4:03:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With the Corvus direct mount rail, its definitely the best for the piggy back setup as it can get the RMR much lower. Also eliminating the mount saves a few ozs. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Corvus-Defensio-M1-3.jpg JP Rifles used to make an Upper that had the same style of integral ACOG groove - I'd love to see another AR company bring that back. https://www.jprifles.com/photos/CTR_ACOG.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He’s right as usual but in a somewhat limited sense. If I ever get a long range battle rifle it would be better with. LPVO. The AUG is the best host for the ACOG. Fact. With the Corvus direct mount rail, its definitely the best for the piggy back setup as it can get the RMR much lower. Also eliminating the mount saves a few ozs. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Corvus-Defensio-M1-3.jpg JP Rifles used to make an Upper that had the same style of integral ACOG groove - I'd love to see another AR company bring that back. https://www.jprifles.com/photos/CTR_ACOG.jpg Before high mounts were popular I got an EREK from LaRue (thanks Mark!) to RAISE my ACOG so it would be more comfortable to shoot. Now I use a standard ACOG mount with a piggybacked RMR, which puts it at a perfect height for daylight or shooting with NVGs  For long range I have a SCAR 20S with a 4-16x and a piggybacked RMR 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 7:37:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With the Corvus direct mount rail, its definitely the best for the piggy back setup as it can get the RMR much lower. Also eliminating the mount saves a few ozs. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Corvus-Defensio-M1-3.jpg JP Rifles used to make an Upper that had the same style of integral ACOG groove - I'd love to see another AR company bring that back. https://www.jprifles.com/photos/CTR_ACOG.jpg Nice! I hacked up a Gear Head Works mount to secure that old school brass catcher. Not as nice off a bench but it works for me while moving.  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 7:49:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't watch. I'm good with my Elcan |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 8:00:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Didn't watch. I'm good with my Elcan Meh, Elcan doesn’t rhyme with any cool guns. AUG with a cog sounds great and is literally a match made in heaven with the scripture included. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 8:24:32 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People were running Dr optics on ACOGs 20 years ago. Yep. Had this combo on a bushy back in the mid 2000s |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 9:27:37 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ELCAN SpecterOS6x is what you seek but they won't sell it to civilians I was hoping someone would bring up the OS4x because it allows for a piggybacked red dot, but it appears it's been discontinued. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 10:02:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote Historyyou need more stuff strapped to that rifle |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 10:04:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's our funeral.   Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here I am with my lowly MRO on my "all around" rifle because I know I'll never engage "targets at distance."  Quoted: Whats it like being dead? Quoted: The ACOG/RMR setup is great, but I've gone back to just an EOTech with no magnification. I just can't realistically see myself engaging someone or something at 200 yards or more. Domestically. I have a scoped rifle intended for four legged things at range. It's our funeral. I think it funny that people have this idea they'll be shooting people at 9000 yards. I pretty much figure any shooting I am likely to do is mostly inside of 200y. If I have to use a gun - it's actually likely I have to use it inside of 25. What's the inside of most peoples homes? The longest indoor shot I can figure in my home is like 60 feet My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. YMMV. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 10:54:37 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it funny that people have this idea they'll be shooting people at 9000 yards. I pretty much figure any shooting I am likely to do is mostly inside of 200y. If I have to use a gun - it's actually likely I have to use it inside of 25. What's the inside of most peoples homes? The longest indoor shot I can figure in my home is like 60 feet My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. YMMV. Your point is valid, but I also don’t think you should sacrifice the ability to shoot a bit further and likely at partially obscured targets. While his delivery is a bit much and I don’t really foresee EOTW scenarios in my lifetime. I do think being able to easily observe, identify, and easily shoot anything in line of sight of my property. I grab the laser rangefinder just to take a look and see what kind of distance is that would be, in my case happens to be just under 350 yards.  Urban Is Not CQB -Mike |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 11:19:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it funny that people have this idea they'll be shooting people at 9000 yards. I pretty much figure any shooting I am likely to do is mostly inside of 200y. If I have to use a gun - it's actually likely I have to use it inside of 25. What's the inside of most peoples homes? The longest indoor shot I can figure in my home is like 60 feet My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. YMMV. I've seen red dot dudes have trouble hitting shot-up C-Zone IPSCs at 100 yds once the target is in mixed lighting (vegetation, shaded, etc). |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 11:27:53 AM EDT
[#18]
I hope Primary Arms is watching this thread...and is really thinking hard about coming up with and fielding an ELCAN alternative.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 12:02:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. This is where most people fail when it comes to selecting gear. Instead of doing an honest assessment of their needs and the kit that will meet those needs, dudes jump from gear fad to gear fad faster than a dependa jumps from cherry GI to cherry GI. Find out what works best for you and stop worrying about what others think of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 12:09:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well that’s cool. I’m running a TA02/RMR. Soon enough, I’ll run my T2 on top. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/540579/2E3E55EE-F5ED-429B-B780-FE7364C24B47_jpe-2610741.JPG @NwVolk Which mount is that? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 12:19:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen red dot dudes have trouble hitting shot-up C-Zone IPSCs at 100 yds once the target is in mixed lighting (vegetation, shaded, etc). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think it funny that people have this idea they'll be shooting people at 9000 yards. I pretty much figure any shooting I am likely to do is mostly inside of 200y. If I have to use a gun - it's actually likely I have to use it inside of 25. What's the inside of most peoples homes? The longest indoor shot I can figure in my home is like 60 feet My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. YMMV. I've seen red dot dudes have trouble hitting shot-up C-Zone IPSCs at 100 yds once the target is in mixed lighting (vegetation, shaded, etc). Shade is a bigger issue than people realize. I have had issues with multiple Aimpoints in dusk/dawn, where I could clearly see the target with my eye, but it was invisible through the optic. The light transmission of the optic, and loss of color, made it impossible to see the target vs the background. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 12:24:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is where most people fail when it comes to selecting gear. Instead of doing an honest assessment of their needs and the kit that will meet those needs, dudes jump from gear fad to gear fad faster than a dependa jumps from cherry GI to cherry GI. Find out what works best for you and stop worrying about what others think of it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. This is where most people fail when it comes to selecting gear. Instead of doing an honest assessment of their needs and the kit that will meet those needs, dudes jump from gear fad to gear fad faster than a dependa jumps from cherry GI to cherry GI. Find out what works best for you and stop worrying about what others think of it. Many years ago, I remember Pat Rogers (Miss you brother) state in a class.."We live in a 200meter world" And I've remembered that to this day. Which is why I've stuck to Aimpoints. I don't and never have believed in the Post Apocalypse fueled scenarios where I'm going to be roaming the wasteland taking on roving bands of mutant bad guys. I had a TA11 and eye relief was great, but tritium sucks and it's not a good nighttime/dark optic and its heavy. I sold my TA11 to fund a new T-1. That optic has been on since 2008 and its on its 2nd battery. How is that for SHTF reliability. and There is a second battery in the KAC battery cap and another in the pistol grip. And I can hit man sized targets out to 200 meters all day. Now granted, it's going to be a challenge to realistically PID and engage targets using cover and concealment and are actively trying not to be seen, but then again, I will be using a certain criterion for when I absolutely need to be dispatching bad guys. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 1:40:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shade is a bigger issue than people realize. I have had issues with multiple Aimpoints in dusk/dawn, where I could clearly see the target with my eye, but it was invisible through the optic. The light transmission of the optic, and loss of color, made it impossible to see the target vs the background. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think it funny that people have this idea they'll be shooting people at 9000 yards. I pretty much figure any shooting I am likely to do is mostly inside of 200y. If I have to use a gun - it's actually likely I have to use it inside of 25. What's the inside of most peoples homes? The longest indoor shot I can figure in my home is like 60 feet My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. YMMV. I've seen red dot dudes have trouble hitting shot-up C-Zone IPSCs at 100 yds once the target is in mixed lighting (vegetation, shaded, etc). Shade is a bigger issue than people realize. I have had issues with multiple Aimpoints in dusk/dawn, where I could clearly see the target with my eye, but it was invisible through the optic. The light transmission of the optic, and loss of color, made it impossible to see the target vs the background. All of this. I’ve had targets that I could see with both eyes but throw the rds in front of one, taking away some ability from that eye, even turned down, I don’t have a good enough sight to put the dot where it needs to be. With high contrast targets a rds is the easy button. Sometimes you need the extra mag to find the target in the shadows that would even blend well in full lighting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 1:40:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, Elcan doesn’t rhyme with any cool guns. AUG with a cog sounds great and is literally a match made in heaven with the scripture included. ACAUG |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 1:45:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ACAUG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Meh, Elcan doesn’t rhyme with any cool guns. AUG with a cog sounds great and is literally a match made in heaven with the scripture included. ACAUG Copyright that shit, amigo
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 1:56:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is field of view… there are always trade offs. You just have to pick what you are willing to sacrifice for what gain. There are advantages to all and none of them are “wrong”… except maybe the guys with an LPVO that exclusively use an RMR for 1x. I can’t get onboard with that one, just get a regular mpvo and a piggybacked dot. -Mike Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’ll stick with my 1-8x thanks. Low percentage shots, spotting and target ID are a thing when you’re fighting real humans in a blown out city and not cardboard cut outs on a manicured range. So is field of view… there are always trade offs. You just have to pick what you are willing to sacrifice for what gain. There are advantages to all and none of them are “wrong”… except maybe the guys with an LPVO that exclusively use an RMR for 1x. I can’t get onboard with that one, just get a regular mpvo and a piggybacked dot. -Mike Find me an MPVO with the same features and same or less weight as an NX8 1-8x. Don’t worry, I’ll wait. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 2:37:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Find me an MPVO with the same features and same or less weight as an NX8 1-8x. Don’t worry, I’ll wait. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I’ll stick with my 1-8x thanks. Low percentage shots, spotting and target ID are a thing when you’re fighting real humans in a blown out city and not cardboard cut outs on a manicured range. So is field of view… there are always trade offs. You just have to pick what you are willing to sacrifice for what gain. There are advantages to all and none of them are “wrong”… except maybe the guys with an LPVO that exclusively use an RMR for 1x. I can’t get onboard with that one, just get a regular mpvo and a piggybacked dot. -Mike Find me an MPVO with the same features and same or less weight as an NX8 1-8x. Don’t worry, I’ll wait. Nonsensical argument… Find me a LPVO with light transmission equal to an NXS 2.5-10, an adjustable parallax, dial-able turrets, etc. All features that are huge improvements when you start to reach out a bit further. Simply different products with different feature sets, advantages, and disadvantages. I’m not against LPVOs, what I don’t get is accepting the sacrifices you make with an LPVO when shooting distance, especially if you are using a separate dot for 1x. Every optic is a compromise, LPVOs give up a lot of down range performance in order to support 1x, so if you aren’t using that feature it makes no sense. If you can’t recognize the sacrifice you aren’t looking at it rationally, the NX8 is a solid option but definitely has limitations. While the tight eye box issue on the NX8 is overblown (I had one) it does exist. It also doesn’t hang when looking out at 4-500 side by side with a quality MPVO. The only place the NX8 really excels is in the reticle. -Mike |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 2:40:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @NwVolk Which mount is that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well that’s cool. I’m running a TA02/RMR. Soon enough, I’ll run my T2 on top. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/540579/2E3E55EE-F5ED-429B-B780-FE7364C24B47_jpe-2610741.JPG @NwVolk Which mount is that? ADM ???? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 4:14:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: you need more stuff strapped to that rifle User name checks out |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 4:18:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ACAUG
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 4:23:33 PM EDT
[#31]
 I love the offset Badger mounts. Keeps it all tucked in tight without changing cheekweld. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 5:12:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nonsensical argument… Find me a LPVO with light transmission equal to an NXS 2.5-10, an adjustable parallax, dial-able turrets, etc. All features that are huge improvements when you start to reach out a bit further. Simply different products with different feature sets, advantages, and disadvantages. I’m not against LPVOs, what I don’t get is accepting the sacrifices you make with an LPVO when shooting distance, especially if you are using a separate dot for 1x. Every optic is a compromise, LPVOs give up a lot of down range performance in order to support 1x, so if you aren’t using that feature it makes no sense. If you can’t recognize the sacrifice you aren’t looking at it rationally, the NX8 is a solid option but definitely has limitations. While the tight eye box issue on the NX8 is overblown (I had one) it does exist. It also doesn’t hang when looking out at 4-500 side by side with a quality MPVO. The only place the NX8 really excels is in the reticle. -Mike Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I’ll stick with my 1-8x thanks. Low percentage shots, spotting and target ID are a thing when you’re fighting real humans in a blown out city and not cardboard cut outs on a manicured range. So is field of view… there are always trade offs. You just have to pick what you are willing to sacrifice for what gain. There are advantages to all and none of them are “wrong”… except maybe the guys with an LPVO that exclusively use an RMR for 1x. I can’t get onboard with that one, just get a regular mpvo and a piggybacked dot. -Mike Find me an MPVO with the same features and same or less weight as an NX8 1-8x. Don’t worry, I’ll wait. Nonsensical argument… Find me a LPVO with light transmission equal to an NXS 2.5-10, an adjustable parallax, dial-able turrets, etc. All features that are huge improvements when you start to reach out a bit further. Simply different products with different feature sets, advantages, and disadvantages. I’m not against LPVOs, what I don’t get is accepting the sacrifices you make with an LPVO when shooting distance, especially if you are using a separate dot for 1x. Every optic is a compromise, LPVOs give up a lot of down range performance in order to support 1x, so if you aren’t using that feature it makes no sense. If you can’t recognize the sacrifice you aren’t looking at it rationally, the NX8 is a solid option but definitely has limitations. While the tight eye box issue on the NX8 is overblown (I had one) it does exist. It also doesn’t hang when looking out at 4-500 side by side with a quality MPVO. The only place the NX8 really excels is in the reticle. -Mike It’s nonsensical to know what features I want? Interesting. You’re welcome to not get it. You’re also not the one having to make the shots I make, so I’m not sure your thoughts on the matter are all that relevant. Like I said, the feature set of the NX8 (and the ATACR and a handful of other LPVOs I’ve used) simply work for what I need them to do. Giving up those features for better light transmission or a roomier eyebox when I don’t have a demonstrated need for improvements in either of those categories is a logical decision when arguing on Arfcom. Less so when I’m the one having to hump the rifle through thigh deep snow in sub zero conditions and having to make a shot at the other end of that. Confusingly enough, I also shoot quite a bit and have the ability to determine my own needs. I even have some experience with other optic types and know perfectly well the performance differences they offer, I even own some rifles equipped with those types of optics. At the end of the day, I understand that while something may make sense to me, it may not be the same for someone else. It’s why I tend to shy away from making such definitive statements such as the ones you made, although they’re certainly not uncommon for forum arguments. So once again, I don’t have a need for dialable turrets (I’d actually prefer capped), I don’t have a need for adjustable parallax, nor do I have a need for the increased light transmission and roomier eyebox inherent to the optics you’re speaking about. I do have a need for adjustable mag, FFP, a reticle that works decently for quick shots while holding off windage and elevation, and as light of weight as possible. Find me something that meets those same feature sets and I’m game.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 5:38:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With the Corvus direct mount rail, its definitely the best for the piggy back setup as it can get the RMR much lower. Also eliminating the mount saves a few ozs. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Corvus-Defensio-M1-3.jpg JP Rifles used to make an Upper that had the same style of integral ACOG groove - I'd love to see another AR company bring that back. https://www.jprifles.com/photos/CTR_ACOG.jpg |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 5:48:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Word. Have aimpoints, eotech, acog and lpvo…. And Leupold MK4 and Elcan which is favorite. Too many different optics = too many reticles, battery types, knobs/settings, etc. I am seriously considering significant downsizing and/or standardizing. Optics, mounts, flashlights, slings, triggers, stocks, fore grips, etc. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 5:48:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All of this. I’ve had targets that I could see with both eyes but throw the rds in front of one, taking away some ability from that eye, even turned down, I don’t have a good enough sight to put the dot where it needs to be. With high contrast targets a rds is the easy button. Sometimes you need the extra mag to find the target in the shadows that would even blend well in full lighting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think it funny that people have this idea they'll be shooting people at 9000 yards. I pretty much figure any shooting I am likely to do is mostly inside of 200y. If I have to use a gun - it's actually likely I have to use it inside of 25. What's the inside of most peoples homes? The longest indoor shot I can figure in my home is like 60 feet My personal SHTF plan is to dominate 250 and in. That won't work for everybody; because terrain and stuff varies - but that's what MY plan is. YMMV. I've seen red dot dudes have trouble hitting shot-up C-Zone IPSCs at 100 yds once the target is in mixed lighting (vegetation, shaded, etc). Shade is a bigger issue than people realize. I have had issues with multiple Aimpoints in dusk/dawn, where I could clearly see the target with my eye, but it was invisible through the optic. The light transmission of the optic, and loss of color, made it impossible to see the target vs the background. All of this. I’ve had targets that I could see with both eyes but throw the rds in front of one, taking away some ability from that eye, even turned down, I don’t have a good enough sight to put the dot where it needs to be. With high contrast targets a rds is the easy button. Sometimes you need the extra mag to find the target in the shadows that would even blend well in full lighting. As a big user of Aimpoints, I hate to say it...but this is where the ACOG and EO are better IMO. The ACOG especially. It's not generally a huge deal, but the Aimpoint really seems to have light transmission problems under certain conditions. YMMV. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 6:07:59 PM EDT
[#36]
In the course, "Public Speaking 101", the very first thing you are taught is -
1. Tell them what you're going to tell them. He failed to do this. 2. Next, you are supposed to tell them. If he did this, it was so buried in BS, I did not find it. This is also known as "losing the attention of your audience". 3. Finally, you're supposed to tell them what you told them. I never made it this far because he lost me so completely, I was not interested in what he had to say. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 6:10:27 PM EDT
[#37]
I loved how a bunch of people in this thread took the bait that he was ripping on LPVOs. Which he wasn't.
 I've been committed to the idea of ACOG/RMR since I finally got to get my eye behind an ACOG mounted to a gun and realized all the blabber about eye relief is just that. Blabber.  I thought that especially because I wear glasses that I'd hate it, and I walked away loving it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 6:10:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I know we're all experts here but has everyone actually looked through a 31? You can have your eye like a foot back and still see the full reticle. Viewed at the eye relief of a 33 the 31 has a very similar fov. Yeah, I went from a Burris lpvo on the AUG to the TA31F ACOG because I really wanted an ACOG, a green chevron reticle for here in the desert, and more consistent length of pull over a collapsible stock since the eye box on some models was so limited. Plus 4 has to be better than 3.5 right? I put way more thought into the that optic than almost everything in my life. Didn’t account for astigmatism in my dominant eye becoming a thing so soon. At least my open sight AR still loves me. All isn’t lost, that green chevron may be a little blurry but it’s still bright.The only thing I don’t like about the ACOG is that I already had the biggest accupoint scope first on a heavy barreled FNAR. It was like 55mm or something ridiculous. Totally spoiled me. It gathered so much light that at twilight you could see things that were totally invisible to the naked eye. The ACOG is still plenty clear even with a kill flash over it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 6:41:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whats it like being dead? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here I am with my lowly MRO on my "all around" rifle because I know I'll never engage "targets at distance." Whats it like being dead? I know. This is why I am all jacked up. How many of these guys are going outside as hunter/killer teams, that need NVG and thermals to hunt down the 'enemy' and take them by surprise. Where I live, there's streetlights and stuff. I am not going to be kicking anyone's door in, and, it's a safe bet that if anyone else kicks mine in, my surefire will work as night vision gear. A lot of people are getting on the let's do this because we can bandwagon, and forgetting the most important aspect of what the rifle will typically be used for. I run a Holosun HS515-GM on my 10.5. IF the need arises, I have a magnifier, but I took it off because it makes the gun heavy. The situations these people portray in these videos are so far removed from anything I can envision myself doing that their advice is like water off a duck's back. It switches on when I pick the gun up. It's in the neighborhood of 300 dollars. It just works. The KISS principle still applies. Your OODA loop works really good when you already know what you're going to do, and no one else is shooting at you. The more complex you make it, the harder it will be to do it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 6:56:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know. This is why I am all jacked up. How many of these guys are going outside as hunter/killer teams, that need NVG and thermals to hunt down the 'enemy' and take them by surprise. Where I live, there's streetlights and stuff. I am not going to be kicking anyone's door in, and, it's a safe bet that if anyone else kicks mine in, my surefire will work as night vision gear. A lot of people are getting on the let's do this because we can bandwagon, and forgetting the most important aspect of what the rifle will typically be used for. I run a Holosun HS515-GM on my 10.5. IF the need arises, I have a magnifier, but I took it off because it makes the gun heavy. The situations these people portray in these videos are so far removed from anything I can envision myself doing that their advice is like water off a duck's back. It switches on when I pick the gun up. It's in the neighborhood of 300 dollars. It just works. The KISS principle still applies. Your OODA loop works really good when you already know what you're going to do, and no one else is shooting at you. The more complex you make it, the harder it will be to do it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here I am with my lowly MRO on my "all around" rifle because I know I'll never engage "targets at distance." Whats it like being dead? I know. This is why I am all jacked up. How many of these guys are going outside as hunter/killer teams, that need NVG and thermals to hunt down the 'enemy' and take them by surprise. Where I live, there's streetlights and stuff. I am not going to be kicking anyone's door in, and, it's a safe bet that if anyone else kicks mine in, my surefire will work as night vision gear. A lot of people are getting on the let's do this because we can bandwagon, and forgetting the most important aspect of what the rifle will typically be used for. I run a Holosun HS515-GM on my 10.5. IF the need arises, I have a magnifier, but I took it off because it makes the gun heavy. The situations these people portray in these videos are so far removed from anything I can envision myself doing that their advice is like water off a duck's back. It switches on when I pick the gun up. It's in the neighborhood of 300 dollars. It just works. The KISS principle still applies. Your OODA loop works really good when you already know what you're going to do, and no one else is shooting at you. The more complex you make it, the harder it will be to do it. Don't get stuck in a defensive mindset
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 6:56:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not with that light That was an "OK" light back then because it was small. I think the X series Surfire's were new then and a lot of folks were still running the SF verticle grip light combo or the SF M95/6 series. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 7:38:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't get stuck in a defensive mindset Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here I am with my lowly MRO on my "all around" rifle because I know I'll never engage "targets at distance." Whats it like being dead? I know. This is why I am all jacked up. How many of these guys are going outside as hunter/killer teams, that need NVG and thermals to hunt down the 'enemy' and take them by surprise. Where I live, there's streetlights and stuff. I am not going to be kicking anyone's door in, and, it's a safe bet that if anyone else kicks mine in, my surefire will work as night vision gear. A lot of people are getting on the let's do this because we can bandwagon, and forgetting the most important aspect of what the rifle will typically be used for. I run a Holosun HS515-GM on my 10.5. IF the need arises, I have a magnifier, but I took it off because it makes the gun heavy. The situations these people portray in these videos are so far removed from anything I can envision myself doing that their advice is like water off a duck's back. It switches on when I pick the gun up. It's in the neighborhood of 300 dollars. It just works. The KISS principle still applies. Your OODA loop works really good when you already know what you're going to do, and no one else is shooting at you. The more complex you make it, the harder it will be to do it. Don't get stuck in a defensive mindset Yeah, cause I'm supposed to be doing all that other stuff. Not. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 7:55:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many years ago, I remember Pat Rogers (Miss you brother) state in a class.."We live in a 200meter world" And I've remembered that to this day. Which is why I've stuck to Aimpoints. I don't and never have believed in the Post Apocalypse fueled scenarios where I'm going to be roaming the wasteland taking on roving bands of mutant bad guys. I had a TA11 and eye relief was great, but tritium sucks and it's not a good nighttime/dark optic and its heavy. I sold my TA11 to fund a new T-1. That optic has been on since 2008 and its on its 2nd battery. How is that for SHTF reliability. and There is a second battery in the KAC battery cap and another in the pistol grip. And I can hit man sized targets out to 200 meters all day. Now granted, it's going to be a challenge to realistically PID and engage targets using cover and concealment and are actively trying not to be seen, but then again, I will be using a certain criterion for when I absolutely need to be dispatching bad guys. very low magnification (2x) prismatic works best for my needs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 8:08:17 PM EDT
[#44]
 Attached FileNuff said. ETA yes lefty. ACOG with M193 reticle on ADM 2.04" mount; Holosun 503-something on an Arisaka tall spacer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 8:09:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that Corvus rail really was a brilliant idea. It drops the height over bore by .25" and makes the RMR much more usable Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: With the Corvus direct mount rail, its definitely the best for the piggy back setup as it can get the RMR much lower. Also eliminating the mount saves a few ozs. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Corvus-Defensio-M1-3.jpg JP Rifles used to make an Upper that had the same style of integral ACOG groove - I'd love to see another AR company bring that back. https://www.jprifles.com/photos/CTR_ACOG.jpg Yeah its fantastic, really the rail to have if you're going run a ACAUG setup. Heres a spectacular one using the 5.5x:  I hope some enterprising AR company will revive the concept for an AR upper, especially one of those 'lightweight' upper developers. Eliminating the ACOG mount saves 3.4-4oz, which is more weight savings then any forward assist delete etc type weight shavings. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 8:21:05 PM EDT
[#46]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 8:59:13 PM EDT
[#47]
I have a pretty good LPVO (Tango6T) and while it can work at very short distances on 1x, it still kind of sucks for that purpose compared to a dot. If I’m shooting at distance, it’s at 4-6x all the time. What I want is a fixed 4x or 5x prism with excellent illumination, a simple reticle, movement activated illumination with a piggyback closed emitter dot. Maybe have an integrated dot in some sort of removable module for service/replacement. I want an adjustable eyepiece too because I’m not 20 and I want a price under $1000 for all of it. Make it anywhere but China and I’ll buy that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 9:04:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a pretty good LPVO (Tango6T) and while it can work at very short distances on 1x, it still kind of sucks for that purpose compared to a dot. If I’m shooting at distance, it’s at 4-6x all the time. What I want is a fixed 4x or 5x prism with excellent illumination, a simple reticle, movement activated illumination with a piggyback closed emitter dot. Maybe have an integrated dot in some sort of removable module for service/replacement. I want an adjustable eyepiece too because I’m not 20 and I want a price under $1000 for all of it. Make it anywhere but China and I’ll buy that. Steiner is the closest I can think of for under $1000. Made in Germany. Simple bright reticle. https://www.steiner-optics.com/battle-sights/t332 |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 9:22:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Steiner is the closest I can think of for under $1000. Made in Germany. Simple bright reticle. https://www.steiner-optics.com/battle-sights/t332 The 4x version is 16.5oz, the 5x version is 19.4oz. Both say 70mm (2.76") of eye relief. I think they were on the cusp of something awesome but the top railed section needs to be on the most forward portion of the body IMO. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2022 9:32:51 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a pretty good LPVO (Tango6T) and while it can work at very short distances on 1x, it still kind of sucks for that purpose compared to a dot. If I’m shooting at distance, it’s at 4-6x all the time. What I want is a fixed 4x or 5x prism with excellent illumination, a simple reticle, movement activated illumination with a piggyback closed emitter dot. Maybe have an integrated dot in some sort of removable module for service/replacement. I want an adjustable eyepiece too because I’m not 20 and I want a price under $1000 for all of it. Make it anywhere but China and I’ll buy that. I've said a few times that Primary Arms should develop a 'Platinum' Prism optic made in Japan, using their superb LED system found in their budget Prism optics. A 3-4x LED prism with a forward mounted RMR, top of the line Jap glass, in the $600-$900 zone, would be very compelling. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Attached File