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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:11:10 AM EDT
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:21:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Tag for later. Thank you, OP...looks like something right up my alley.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:29:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Bring back the battleships. MAGA
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:29:24 AM EDT
[#3]
Interesting
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:44:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Wow, those reconnaissance swimmers!!!
Can't believe they could swim with the weight of their huge brass brass balls. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:14:04 AM EDT
[#5]
Cool!
Thanks, OP. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:16:44 AM EDT
[#6]
Big guns are handy.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 11:17:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Great video, thanks.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 2:22:44 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 1/27/2018 2:36:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Can anyone give any idea of what kind of armament and armor the US gunboats had at the time of first contact there?
Also I had no idea of the scale and resorces that were dedicated to this assault. For some reason I had assumed that it was made without enough CAS, reconnaissance and insufficient initial artillary. That it was some sort of intelligence blackout on the condition of the island from the get go |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 2:50:27 PM EDT
[#10]
It's wild that the big guns were not really that effective. Intel?
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Posted: 1/27/2018 3:41:34 PM EDT
[#11]
You can't hit what you can't see.
I'm not surprised at all that aerial bombing didn't work, the accuracy of the methods they had available back then were laughable. Wasn't their fault, just too subject to error. These days, you would use thermal and other means to identify the emplacements, and then send a bunker buster or missile through the firing ports. And you can do that regardless of weather, with or without GPS, depending on the system. The SDB II is going to have laser homing, GPS, and INS in one package. All that said...you don't own it until you put your boys in the mud. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:11:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't hit what you can't see. I'm not surprised at all that aerial bombing didn't work, the accuracy of the methods they had available back then were laughable. Wasn't their fault, just too subject to error. These days, you would use thermal and other means to identify the emplacements, and then send a bunker buster or missile through the firing ports. And you can do that regardless of weather, with or without GPS, depending on the system. The SDB II is going to have laser homing, GPS, and INS in one package. All that said...you don't own it until you put your boys in the mud. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:20:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would some type of dive bomber been effective, like the Germans had used early in the war? Did we even have dive bombers? The Japanese had learned from previous battles and had plenty of time to dig in. In that situation you either need guided weapons or guns directed by an observer who has eyes on specific targets. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:24:06 PM EDT
[#14]
We had a couple types of dive and torpedo bombers earlier in the war, I'm not sure which ones we had in 1944-45. Wiki makes it sound like a bunch of escort carriers provided CAS, but I don't know for sure.
There was a thread here a while ago, that explained what aerial gunnery and bombing was like even in Vietnam (with some mention of what had come before). I can't remember all the specifics, but suffice to say, getting an airplane going 300-400mph to drop a bomb, and to even hit within a football field-sized target would count as exceptional accuracy back then. There were just too many physical factors happening too quickly to achieve accuracy...people literally don't have reflexes fast enough, and senses accurate enough, to hit that "sweet spot" release with any reliability. Then add ground fire, disorientation, bad weather, simply not flying at perfect right angles to a target, and so on...and the picture gets worse from there. 1/2 second too soon or too late could mean hundreds of yards long or short of a target at those speeds. (by my rough paper napkin math (400mph/60mins/60seconds/2 x 5280 feet in a mile), 1/2 second is about 300 feet of error), and we're talking bunkers that, if they could even be seen, had a vulnerable region no bigger than a car. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:33:41 PM EDT
[#15]
I've wondered if taking that particular piece of dirt was worth it. By this time (early 1945), we had pretty much negated Japan's air arms. How much of a need was the escort mission / divert strip for the B-29's?
We lost over 6800 lives, with over 19,000 wounded taking that volcanic rock, not to mention the material we used. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:21:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of performance that they had to be protected by 2 rings of assets just so they could blindly empty their mags.
Good riddance, almost as dumb as carriers are. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:36:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've wondered if taking that particular piece of dirt was worth it. By this time (early 1945), we had pretty much negated Japan's air arms. How much of a need was the escort mission / divert strip for the B-29's? We lost over 6800 lives, with over 19,000 wounded taking that volcanic rock, not to mention the material we used. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:43:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of performance that they had to be protected by 2 rings of assets just so they could blindly empty their mags. Good riddance, almost as dumb as carriers are. Wait, have to run for more beer and popcorn! 
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:50:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Should have just napalmed the living hell out of the place for a couple weeks with B-29s.
Like melted butter on an English muffin, flowing into all the nooks and crannies. Then ignite and burn out the oxygen. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 5:55:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The island hopping campaign was questionable in value. Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether? I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so Why didn’t we do this? Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:00:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Going to have echo this philosophy. Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether? I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so Why didn’t we do this Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The island hopping campaign was questionable in value. Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether? I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so Why didn’t we do this Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:12:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh boy, dis gon be good! Wait, have to run for more beer and popcorn! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh boy, dis gon be good! Wait, have to run for more beer and popcorn! Quoted: WE needed the strips for shot up B29s |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:26:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WE needed the strips for shot up B29s The Japanese had no real pilots left outside of raw recruits that could barely land or fly a plane, let alone dog fight. They had zero fuel depots. How are they going to engage veteran high altitude bomber crews with any real sort of effect on the bombing mission? That late in the game any resources were allocated to kamikaze squads, human missiles dedicated to desperate suicide missions. They didn’t have the training or a realistic possibility of engaging sophisticated high altitude bombers by that time. My guess is that they wouldn’t even know how as the core of their senior pilot group was long since exhausted trying to stave of the inevitable ETA- wrong teminalogy, pilot but not airman |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:33:38 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WE needed the strips for shot up B29s Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The island hopping campaign was questionable in value. Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether? I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so Why didn’t we do this Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima? Have the crew bail out and get picked up by a destroyer or sub. And no, my sarcasm meter doesn't work in GD. Post hype, you'll get facts. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:33:55 PM EDT
[#25]
I recall we spent as much or more on developing the B-29 as we did in the atomic bomb. They were very very expensive assets at the time.
The escort fighters that could reach Japan from there were added protection. Distances in the Pacific were vast and water sucks as a runway for land based aircraft. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:35:58 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would some type of dive bomber been effective, like the Germans had used early in the war? Did we even have dive bombers? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:41:15 PM EDT
[#27]
The Japanese had fighters and some fuel and were quite capable of shooting down our B-29s. Thankfully they didn't produce too many Kawasaki Ki-100 fighters that could climb high altitudes and take on our B-29s. They also had the Kawanishi N1K, nicknamed George, it was considered the equal to the F-8 Hellcat.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:46:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bring back the battleships. MAGA |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:55:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Not all of the pilots left to Japan when the B-29's came calling were rank amateurs. One Japanese AAF pilot Makoto Ogawa achieved Ace status against them, knocking down a confirmed 7 Superforts and 2 Mustangs.
The escort pilots had a long and taxing flight just getting to Japan, whereas the Japanese pilot was fighting over his home territory. Yeah, the game was all but over and Japan was not going to win, but it was far from a cakewalk for the bomber crews or their escorts. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 6:59:36 PM EDT
[#30]
yea... criticizing the plan via hindsight is not how you understand what may have been the better plan...
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Posted: 1/27/2018 7:07:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The island hopping campaign was questionable in value. Americans want heroes even if they die for pointless objectives. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 7:10:05 PM EDT
[#32]
More -29s were lost to engine fires than Japanese bullets and shells.
More subs and better engines would have saved many more lives. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 7:22:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WE needed the strips for shot up B29s Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The island hopping campaign was questionable in value. Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether? I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so Why didn't we do this Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 7:24:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More -29s were lost to engine fires than Japanese bullets and shells. More subs and better engines would have saved many more lives. More subs for downed aircrews is always a good idea in my book. Especially since the Japanese Navy was mostly destroyed by then. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 8:13:23 PM EDT
[#35]
They were still planning an invasion of Japan and probably wanted to use it as a jump off point and eliminate having it at there backs.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:27:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WE needed the strips for shot up B29s |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:28:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should have filled the Pacific with subs and just starved them out. However, the public wanted violent retribution and that is what they got. Americans want heroes even if they die for pointless objectives. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:30:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cheaper to just let them crash. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: WE needed the strips for shot up B29s |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:36:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bring back the battleships. MAGA 
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Posted: 1/27/2018 9:41:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's my analysis. Airframe costs have little to do with development costs. Subs/destroyers can pick up the crews. Also, do you have any idea how big the western Pacific is? You would have needed hundreds of subs tasked solely for rescue duties in order to find the crews in a reasonable time. And that's assuming you could find them in the first place, given the state of radio technology back then. Given that we lost 50,000 men in three years over Germany it's pretty reasonable to assume if the air war over Japan had gone on just as long you would have lost more men from downed planes than from invading the island. Iwo was a good investment that was not fully used because the atomic bomb stopped the war before it was truly necessary. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:04:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But muh capital ships A few days of morning+evening B-29 strikes over Iwo Jima would have a better use of resources. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Oh boy, dis gon be good! Wait, have to run for more beer and popcorn! Quoted: WE needed the strips for shot up B29s well, now we know who didn't watch the film... or learn history... What would a few days from B-29's do, that 9 months of other AC and NGFS not wise sage of the internet? |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:15:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's my analysis. Airframe costs have little to do with development costs. Subs/destroyers can pick up the crews. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: WE needed the strips for shot up B29s But wait, it gets worse, now with your policy, you're also putting other assets at risk, subs to pick up ditching crews more often, and closer to the home islands. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:29:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were still planning an invasion of Japan and probably wanted to use it as a jump off point and eliminate having it at there backs. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:32:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We did starve them out with a submarine and aerial dropped mine campaign. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: We should have filled the Pacific with subs and just starved them out. However, the public wanted violent retribution and that is what they got. Americans want heroes even if they die for pointless objectives. 
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:41:22 PM EDT
[#45]
The island hopping campaign had the secondary goal of bringing the Imperial Navy to battle so it could be destroyed. Every naval battle in the Pacific after Midway was caused by the Japanese reacting to a landing.
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Posted: 1/27/2018 10:46:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We had a couple types of dive and torpedo bombers earlier in the war, I'm not sure which ones we had in 1944-45. Wiki makes it sound like a bunch of escort carriers provided CAS, but I don't know for sure. Most of the escort carriers had FM-2 Wildcats for fighters/light bomber, and TBFs for bombing and anti-sub patrol. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:11:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As someone mentioned earlier, we didn't expect to win the war for another 2-3 years. Iwo was considered to be an important part of the bombing campaign against Japan. It saved both the planes and the crews, which were far more valuable than the planes themselves. Also, do you have any idea how big the western Pacific is? You would have needed hundreds of subs tasked solely for rescue duties in order to find the crews in a reasonable time. And that's assuming you could find them in the first place, given the state of radio technology back then. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That's my analysis. Airframe costs have little to do with development costs. Subs/destroyers can pick up the crews. Also, do you have any idea how big the western Pacific is? You would have needed hundreds of subs tasked solely for rescue duties in order to find the crews in a reasonable time. And that's assuming you could find them in the first place, given the state of radio technology back then. Given that we lost 50,000 men in three years over Germany it's pretty reasonable to assume if the air war over Japan had gone on just as long you would have lost more men from downed planes than from invading the island. Iwo was a good investment that was not fully used because the atomic bomb stopped the war before it was truly necessary. From Wikipedia In all, 2,251 B-29 landings on Iwo Jima were recorded during the war.[70] Moskin records that 1,191 fighter escorts and 3,081 strike sorties were flown from Iwo Jima against Japan.[71] Some downed B-29 crewmen were saved by air-sea rescue aircraft and vessels operating from the island, but Iwo Jima was only one of many islands that could have been used for such a purpose. As for the importance of the island as a landing and refueling site for bombers, Marine Captain Robert Burrell, then a history instructor at the United States Naval Academy, suggested that only a small proportion of the 2,251 landings were for genuine emergencies, the great majority possibly being for minor technical checkups, training, or refueling. According to Burrell, This justification became prominent only after the Marines seized the island and incurred high casualties. The tragic cost of Operation Detachment pressured veterans, journalists, and commanders to fixate on the most visible rationalization for the battle. The sight of the enormous, costly, and technologically sophisticated B-29 landing on the island's small airfield most clearly linked Iwo Jima to the strategic bombing campaign. As the myths about the flag raisings on Mount Suribachi reached legendary proportions, so did the emergency landing theory in order to justify the need to raise that flag.[72] |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:23:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote History 
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:41:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yea... criticizing the plan via hindsight is not how you understand what may have been the better plan... |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:57:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Going to have echo this philosophy. Why bother to expend the resorces to take a fortified island, or eventual airfield ( which was the only potential danger as a fighter base) when you could destroy the airfield and bypass the fortress altogether? I.e. if you destroy the airfield, there is no threat to the high altitude bombers........so Why didn’t we do this? Why was it essential to the war effort to put boots on the ground at Iwo Jima? |
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