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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:42:03 AM EDT
[#1]
True Velocity should have won the contract, they were actually advancing the state of the art in terms of cartridge technology to relieve some of the weight penalty of going to a bigger caliber.
I think the smarter thing to do would have been to stick to the original objective of the program, which was to develop lighter weight ammunition to increase carrying capacity or reduce the weight carried by each troop. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:48:53 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors. Rent free. God forbid someone with first hand experience post, it would take away from all the baseless speculation. Quoted: You can bet he’s not going to like this. At least no one has brought up Taylor Swift yet.  Not going to like a YouTube video? Nah, mostly indifferent. People are allowed their opinions. Most of the hate on the Spear is cope. The rest is people trying to place the blame anywhere other than where it belongs, on the initial requirements. It’s not Sigs fault the army set forth stupid requirements, nor is it their fault they had the best submission. 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:58:45 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if there were people saying that the M1 Garand was unnecessary. Look at WWI and the Spanish civil war, bolt actions are just fine they worked in the past. This semi auto stuff is dumb and heavy. You could have replaced every M1 with a M1 Carbine with negligible impact. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:00:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As for the tactical application, eh… He’s not wrong, though I think removing LMG’s from squad level is dumb. Problem I see is that the 249 is both heavy, and getting long in the tooth, and the 240 is a heavy bastard when you’re on foot and toting ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted: As for the tactical application, eh… He’s not wrong, though I think removing LMG’s from squad level is dumb. Problem I see is that the 249 is both heavy, and getting long in the tooth, and the 240 is a heavy bastard when you’re on foot and toting ammo. I saw a SOF dude talking about how you could pull the SAW if you added another M240 to the PLT. No idea what the implications of that are. Make a 20 pound M240 with ammunition that is 30% lighter and you are crossing the weight of the SAW with performance that exceeds the 7.62. I could see where that would be a big deal. My experience with the SAW is in MLRS units. The SAW was a huge waste of time, I'd rather spend that money on a mounted MG and training. Quoted: I want to see the 5.56 caseless/cased telescoping LSAT. 10~12 pound LMG with ammo even lighter than basic 5.56, low recoil and accurate enough to punch out to the very limits of the cartridge. At that point, you could feasibly turn half the squad into machine gunners. After the LSAT, the best option on the market is KAC’s assault LMG. Only question I have is how durable it is, it’s half the weight of the 249. If you want an assault gun then you've got a lot of choices. The trouble isn't the gun, it is integrating it into the squad and figuring out how to use it. Look at the arguments we have on this site about the difference between an AR and LMG... |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 3:02:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could have replaced every M1 with a M1 Carbine with negligible impact. No, not negligible, the infantry would have been a lot more lethal and mobile. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:22:47 AM EDT
[#6]
Did anyone load one of these and drop it? Just wondering.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 5:28:45 AM EDT
[#7]
Joglee thread?
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:04:39 AM EDT
[#8]
Yeah so the armchair flannel dude with the hat knows more about how to arm our army than the army...
 Attached File |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:09:22 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 13lbs Keeps women and soy boys out of infantry. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:22:53 AM EDT
[#10]
As far as over match this might provide some of the answer.
 Raytheon Pike 40 mm Precision Guided Munition for the First Time at AUSA 2015 Washington DC U.S. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:31:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Because it's probably an anti-UGV rifle, the new cartridges are just a footprint for future fancy special payload ammunition types, and all that stuff about Russian advanced body armor was bullshit.
That tip design on the M855A1 looks pretty well suited for being swapped out with all sorts of small low-power one-time-use electronics, and that copper plug seems well suited for being swapped with a little thermal battery, just needs a bigger projectile. And these new case designs seem pretty well suited for custom tailoring propellant charges. *cough*programmableirlasertracers*cough* |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 6:44:13 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah so the armchair flannel dude with the hat knows more about how to arm our army than the army... /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up_zps5c0357b9_GIF-103.gif Are you going to deny that the Army employs professional idiots or people that give sweetheart contracts to defense companies? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:01:38 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn't. Barrels are getting shorter partly because suppressors are becoming general issue and partly because long barrels suck balls for modern combat. Ammunition is evolving to perform better in short barrels. At some point, I have a feeling a viable bullpup will emerge and become a serious contender. GD/LS/Beretta/TV tried that with the RM277 & it went nowhere. Army will always cling to the AR format under any name, like they did with the M5, which is just a FDE AR chambered in 6.8. Prove me wrong. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:10:10 AM EDT
[#14]
what was the Sig competing against. or was nothing else considered ?
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:15:45 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what was the Sig competing against. or was nothing else considered ? A bullpup design with recoiling barrel to mitigate recoil and used polymer cased ammo. A civilian version is going to be available, similar to how SIG released the SPEAR:   General Dynamics US Army Prototype M4 replacement NGSW 6.8mm and another more traditional layout gun that had a new internal design not found in any other gun that used polymer telescoping ammo. It looked complicated but interesting.    Textron's NGSW 6.8mm Prototype M4 Replacement Deep Dive |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:22:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's crazy to expect 3000 fps with a 135 grain bullet from a 13.7" barrel. It can be done with insane pressures, but it is still a bad idea. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it doesn't. Barrels are getting shorter partly because suppressors are becoming general issue and partly because long barrels suck balls for modern combat. Ammunition is evolving to perform better in short barrels. At some point, I have a feeling a viable bullpup will emerge and become a serious contender. It's crazy to expect 3000 fps with a 135 grain bullet from a 13.7" barrel. It can be done with insane pressures, but it is still a bad idea. These discussions are inevitable when big Army tries to make a single rifle do everything from clearing rooms to long range precision. It ends up being a clunky shitshow at both. It won’t be the first time they’ve done this, nor will it be the last. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:28:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Waste of time and money imo. Yep, a solution to a now apparent non existant problem |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:35:54 AM EDT
[#18]
For the life of me, I’ll never understand why the Army didn’t go with 1867 Werndl single shot rotating block rifles chambered in 11.15x58R Austrian Werndl.
Their decision has left me scratching my head. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:41:04 AM EDT
[#19]
At the beginning he admits:
- Never shot it - No firsthand experience - But he watched some videos on the interwebs. Right or wrong, this is just another gun doofus spouting his ill-informed opinion. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:48:20 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At the beginning he admits: - Never shot it - No firsthand experience - But he watched some videos on the interwebs. Right or wrong, this is just another gun doofus spouting his ill-informed opinion. You don’t need to shoot it to know how this old story goes. It’s been tried before. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 7:50:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right or wrong, this is just another gun doofus spouting his ill-informed opinion. I really feel like a white knight for saying this and I’m ashamed for doing so, but he’s a career SF guy and a member here. His opinion may be wrong, but it’s not necessarily accurate to say he’s some doofus who has no idea what he’s talking about. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:13:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don’t need to shoot it to know how this old story goes. It’s been tried before. Yeah, you don't have to shoot it to know that significantly heavier sucks and 100 is less than 210. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:19:15 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should stick with 5.56 Going back to battle rifles is dumb Gotta agree with you on that. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 8:45:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Let the Air Force run the competition, after all, that's how we ended up with the AR-15/M-16
6.8 would've been nice for Afghanistan.. not so much now |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 9:56:52 AM EDT
[#25]
The .277 Fury is an interesting cartridge. I've been a 6.8 fan since about 2008.
Anyway, with the right powder and bullet, 6.8 SPC can get darn close to .277 Fury velocity without a longer magwell, longer mags and very high chamber pressure. I don't hate Sig, but they sure seem to be getting more than their share of mil contracts. Also, service part support for non-current models is apparently iffy. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:03:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Hey, maybe they're developing it to use on American citizens. Then it won't be a waste!
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:15:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah so the armchair flannel dude with the hat knows more about how to arm our army than the army... /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up_zps5c0357b9_GIF-103.gif The Army also makes dudes mop parking lots in the rain and issued Serpas. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:19:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Weird, my youngest son just asked me about this. I just can't see the military getting completely rid of the M4, it’s just really, really good at what it does and its already out there. Build more subs.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:26:39 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At the beginning he admits: - Never shot it - No firsthand experience - But he watched some videos on the interwebs. Right or wrong, this is just another gun doofus spouting his ill-informed opinion. You don’t have to shoot it to understand math. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:28:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rent free. God forbid someone with first hand experience post, it would take away from all the baseless speculation. Not going to like a YouTube video? Nah, mostly indifferent. People are allowed their opinions. Most of the hate on the Spear is cope. The rest is people trying to place the blame anywhere other than where it belongs, on the initial requirements. It’s not Sigs fault the army set forth stupid requirements, nor is it their fault they had the best submission. The phrase good enough for Government work comes to mind. If anything this biindoggle reinforces my suspicion that Sig pays Anthony Marfione as a marketing consultant :lol: 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:29:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The .277 Fury is an interesting cartridge. I've been a 6.8 fan since about 2008. Anyway, with the right powder and bullet, 6.8 SPC can get darn close to .277 Fury velocity without a longer magwell, longer mags and very high chamber pressure. I don't hate Sig, but they sure seem to be getting more than their share of mil contracts. Also, service part support for non-current models is apparently iffy. @jough43 Which powder and bullet, exactly? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:30:07 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weird, my youngest son just asked me about this. I just can't see the military getting completely rid of the M4, it’s just really, really good at what it does and its already out there. Build more subs. Won’t be Army service wide, vast majority of the Army won’t be receiving them and post Afghanistan since GWOT dropped from top of priority list Navy is getting the lion’s share but still having problems with acquiring and maintaining submarines https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/11/18/navy-hopes-new-funding-model-can-cut-sub-maintenance-delays-by-2026/  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:30:29 AM EDT
[#33]
This is a fucking money grab plain and simple.
To outfit every combat soldier with this system is fucking stupid. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:33:08 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't wait for the .45-70 crowd to show up. The derp just keeps getting worse and worse. Leave me out of this. 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:34:09 AM EDT
[#35]
They should have just went with a 6.8 SPC II M4A1
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:36:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They should have just went with a 6.8 SPC II M4A1 Why would you want something with a worse BC than Mk262? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:37:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I really feel like a white knight for saying this and I’m ashamed for doing so, but he’s a career SF guy and a member here. His opinion may be wrong, but it’s not necessarily accurate to say he’s some doofus who has no idea what he’s talking about. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Right or wrong, this is just another gun doofus spouting his ill-informed opinion. I really feel like a white knight for saying this and I’m ashamed for doing so, but he’s a career SF guy and a member here. His opinion may be wrong, but it’s not necessarily accurate to say he’s some doofus who has no idea what he’s talking about. Reminds me of the ex-Navy food blister at the VA who asked me why I had a walking stick. 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:40:30 AM EDT
[#38]
When Jeff says something, it is best to listen.
I don't see any real flaws in his analysis. One thing Jeff doesn't mention is that 5.56mm is a NATO standard and you would need to add 6.8 to not just US armed forces but also NATO... which is a major task. Honestly I like the idea of more powerful MGs and ditching 7.62 NATO for something better. I thought this process had already begun? U.S. Special Operators Will Soon Be Using This 6.5mm “Assault” Machine Gun |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:41:26 AM EDT
[#39]
Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:46:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rent free. God forbid someone with first hand experience post, it would take away from all the baseless speculation. Not going to like a YouTube video? Nah, mostly indifferent. People are allowed their opinions. Most of the hate on the Spear is cope. The rest is people trying to place the blame anywhere other than where it belongs, on the initial requirements. It’s not Sigs fault the army set forth stupid requirements, nor is it their fault they had the best submission. https://i.imgur.com/nyMQTyl.jpg Nor is it their fault a general magically got a job there after the selection? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 10:53:32 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once you understand the mission of the US military this program, and every program, and every bizarre campaign decision make perfect sense. The primary mission of the US military is to produce the largest possible number of general officers. The secondary mission is to transition those generals to lucrative defense jobs after they retire. If you understand these facts, every single thing makes sense.  But maybe I should cry with what they are doing with our money: Pentagon Fails Fifth Consecutive Audit Amid Ukraine Oversight Concerns |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:00:44 AM EDT
[#42]
I can understand the hate for the XM5 because battle rifle but the hate for the XM250 is a pure gnashing of teeth cope. The thing weighs less than a 249 and wayyyyyy less than a 240
I still think "big and heavy" is way overblown though. It's all of an inch longer than an M4 and I don't think 13lbs is super heavy considering that's with the optic, can, and loaded. From what I can find that's pretty much on par with a full GWOT M16 |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:01:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:12:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @jough43 Which powder and bullet, exactly? If I remember correctly, 28-29 grains of AA2200 and Barnes 95 gr TTSX gives around 2,900 fps MV and about 60K psi chamber pressure. 68forums has lots of info. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:18:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I remember correctly, 28-29 grains of AA2200 and Barnes 95 gr TTSX gives around 2,900 fps MV and about 60K psi chamber pressure. 68forums has lots of info. Oh. So you can manage to get a slug that’s 42% lighter and has crap-tastic BC somewhat close to the velocity and that’s relevant? You could get a 110gr V-Max over 3,000fps in a .308, too. Why would you want to? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:20:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Kind of irrelevant, as the pacing threat has always been China. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:20:39 AM EDT
[#47]
That load is VERY effective on deer and hogs. It isn't a 600 yard target load.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:24:28 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These discussions are inevitable when big Army tries to make a single rifle do everything from clearing rooms to long range precision. It ends up being a clunky shitshow at both. It won’t be the first time they’ve done this, nor will it be the last. The Army has "tried this" exactly one time before - and the M14 successfully did exactly what it was designed to do. If it had been introduced 10 years earlier, it would have been hailed as a wonder weapon with the firepower of a BAR in something lighter than an M1. Even in its time, it was as good as the FAL or G3, which are both still in active service around the world. However, the "big Army" was also smart enough to recognize the revolutionary potential of the AR15 (something no other military in the world did, I might add) and ditched the M14 for something even better. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 11:30:15 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That load is VERY effective on deer and hogs. It isn't a 600 yard target load. Let’s look at the ballistics of that load compared to my 77gr match load. This is with a mild, 7.5mph, full value crosswind. 77gr match.  Attached File95gr. 6.8SPC load:  Attached FileIt’s pretty evident that it bleeds energy prodigiously, but you do you. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 12:02:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Sorry, I don't hunt with .223. BTW, it isn't legal for deer in some states.
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