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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:23:43 AM EDT
[#1]
The F-22 hasn't been a failure at all. It has served as a deterrence to our enemies. Just because it hasn't been used in combat doesn't make it a failure.
If things ever go hot directly with Russia, China, or even Iran, the F-22 will be used with great success. Using your logic, has the Ohio class SSBN program been a massive failure and R&D project? They were never used in combat operations (I'm not counting the few that have been converted to launch conventional cruise missiles as that was an afterthought). |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:25:55 AM EDT
[#2]
The program funneled oodles of tax dollars into the defense industry. It did what it was meant to do
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:28:08 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were made to fight a fictional peer enemy. They were really good at it. IMO, F22’s could potentially earn their keep as a force multiplier off of the coast of China if they ever got uppity. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:29:25 AM EDT
[#4]
If you're never building up what you have while waiting for the next best thing eventually you'll be in a war without anything at all.
The f22 should be used until the day its replacement is in the field in appropriate numbers. This next war will be brutal on our supply lines. We won't be building shit for years. This isn't 1943 and one cannot source every last component needed from within which means we gotta piss with the cock we got. It'd be great to be able to have its replacement in 2030. But who can say it won't be needed at that time or that we will be able to maintain production of the f35 or any other advanced new airframe? |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:38:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 There's a reason for that. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:39:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F-22 is the sexiest fighter ever made. That alone should keep that in production and upgrades years on. Fact |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:28:20 AM EDT
[#7]
You assume that those making the decision have the best interests of the US in mind
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:29:21 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You assume that those making the decision have the best interests of the US in mind That is the best answer I have heard so far |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:33:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Raptor is not a failure … still the dominant stealth fighter …
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:56:00 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Um. That's an F-35. Says so right in the original thread. And the linked article. And the photos. It was late... |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 12:02:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or, alternately, the Army Chief of Staff was in SECDEF Gates' office daily complaining that the USAF wasn't giving him enough Predators. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: was just about ready for prime time when the program was cancelled by socialists that weren't interested in continuing the never ending over run when there were cool social programs clamoring for the budget. Or, alternately, the Army Chief of Staff was in SECDEF Gates' office daily complaining that the USAF wasn't giving him enough Predators. No doubt more than two or three pressures to cancel F-22. We still hope there is some sense of fiscal responsibility in the Pentagon, or distaste for leaving the US disarmed. I spent a few minutes looking for an original schedule for the airplane, all I have found are the actual dates and events. In any case, we need to think about development times, 1981 from announcement of a requirement to 2005 for (an) IOC is nuts in terms of time. Money, too, there was plenty spent in "small" development contracts, I worked on several that were flight tested on F-15's. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:03:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today. If we made 1,000 instead of 80 they would be a lot cheaper and other countries would have bought them. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:10:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is so successful it has never been needed in a peer to peer fight. That is an achievement of airpower Fixt. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:20:39 PM EDT
[#14]
We should start a war with France so the F22 can eat. We take the wine region, the cheese and the alps, let the french keep the rest.
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:24:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No doubt more than two or three pressures to cancel F-22. We still hope there is some sense of fiscal responsibility in the Pentagon, or distaste for leaving the US disarmed. I spent a few minutes looking for an original schedule for the airplane, all I have found are the actual dates and events. In any case, we need to think about development times, 1981 from announcement of a requirement to 2005 for (an) IOC is nuts in terms of time. Money, too, there was plenty spent in "small" development contracts, I worked on several that were flight tested on F-15's. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: was just about ready for prime time when the program was cancelled by socialists that weren't interested in continuing the never ending over run when there were cool social programs clamoring for the budget. Or, alternately, the Army Chief of Staff was in SECDEF Gates' office daily complaining that the USAF wasn't giving him enough Predators. No doubt more than two or three pressures to cancel F-22. We still hope there is some sense of fiscal responsibility in the Pentagon, or distaste for leaving the US disarmed. I spent a few minutes looking for an original schedule for the airplane, all I have found are the actual dates and events. In any case, we need to think about development times, 1981 from announcement of a requirement to 2005 for (an) IOC is nuts in terms of time. Money, too, there was plenty spent in "small" development contracts, I worked on several that were flight tested on F-15's. It was the first fifth generation fighter. I don’t know that F-35 could have happened without it. All of that R&D had to happen on some project. Gates wasn’t wrong to cancel F22. He had soldiers dying every day who needed other things for the two wars we were fighting. The war that came after had to wait. I wish they had canceled something else, maybe the B1B, but it’s too late. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:27:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If we made 1,000 instead of 80 they would be a lot cheaper and other countries would have bought them. Japan and Australia were talking about export sales but a congressman, I forget which, always blocked export of it. As it is I would HAPPILY sell every F-22 to Japan for $1 contingent on them buying all the upgrades for all of them and operating them all as combat aircraft. Getting an Mx hog off our books but still in the fight would suit us well. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:27:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our Enemies don't have to fight us. They have infiltrated our institutions and convinced a substantial portion of our citizens that America is inherently bad and biological science known for thousands of years is now relative to how any idiot "feels", and that one party can behave in Stalinist fashion with no consequences. We're rotting from the inside like end period Rome. The Soviet Union still appeared to be mighty from the outside until the very end. And they were still dangerous, but rotting.... The United States is entirely impregnable from military invasion. Even without all of these very cool, very expensive and very useless weapon systems. But, as you say we let the communists in and they took over via non military means. The f22 is the absolute best fighter jet that has ever or probably will ever be made. Fighting the last war best isn't how you win the next war. Air defense can make flying expensive jets too risky for a relatively low price. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:35:44 PM EDT
[#18]
F-22 is a great plane but it’s got about three big problems for us.
1. It’s closed architecture and doesn’t like to upgrade. 2. It’s old and needs upgrades. 3. Itty bitty legs. NGAD looks to be trading maneuverability for range. Rumor is it’s going to be a big bitch. Like F-111 inspired. But it’ll also be open architecture, incorporate everything learned from F-22 and F-35, it’s supposed to be minimal technical risk (build the plane then worry about adding risky tech) and stealthier. It ought to be the best thing yet. And apparently it’s moving a lot faster than most think. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:42:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You assume that those making the decision have the best interests of the US in mind You are assuming they do not without any evidence. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:44:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's sustained till 2030. It'd take time to build more F35s, and we've already got ~180 F22s, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. When 2030-2040 rolls around then it might be a situation where we've got plenty of F35s, and we start retiring the F22, F15 and so on. 180 F-22's and 980+ F-35's attrition is the doom of the F-22 |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:47:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should start a war with France so the F22 can eat. We take the wine region, the cheese and the alps, let the french keep the rest. Finally someone with goals that make sense. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 2:48:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Japan and Australia were talking about export sales but a congressman, I forget which, always blocked export of it. As it is I would HAPPILY sell every F-22 to Japan for $1 contingent on them buying all the upgrades for all of them and operating them all as combat aircraft. Getting an Mx hog off our books but still in the fight would suit us well. So where are the Japanese going to get spare parts, out of thin air? |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 3:07:00 PM EDT
[#23]
Go listen to the Ward Carroll stuff on youtube, they were supposed to build a thousand of these to replace old F15's.
Then production got cut to less than 200 so they could build MRAP's instead. They milked another 20 years out of the F15's and they are now falling apart. They aren't building F35's fast enough, so they grabbed some F15's out of Qatar's production line and are building new F15ex models with updates from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. (yes, we are still actively building F15's for other countries) Not stealth, but mach 2.5. It outruns the F35 in a straight line. Not being stealth, it can turn up the wattage on the radar and see stuff the F35 can't. You children could be flying F15's with modern upgrades. The plan is to have two different tools to use. For general use, it makes sense to have some cheaper aircraft for more mundane tasks. It's kind of cool. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 5:47:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So where are the Japanese going to get spare parts, out of thin air? Lockheed-Martin-Mitsubishi |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 8:57:16 PM EDT
[#25]
The F-22 is probably going to be one of the last dog fighters where you have to get close and maneuver into position for a kill shot. All of the future airplanes are going to shoot you BVR in order to stay stealthy. So you won't know you are one step from death, since you can hear the active radar from the missile in your headset, but you have nothing on your radar scope.. So you are looking for that aircraft while defending against a missile.
There is some truth in the NGNF and the NGAD going bigger since the main bad guy is CCP, and we would need longer range like F-23 size, or even a re-worked F-14 sized NGNF. Might have to return to the 2000NM range for a strike. CAP can be handled my Burke class with AEGIS. We might get a follow on to the E-2 Hawkeye with stealth, a few naval tankers with stealth, so we can get closer to the fight. But we still need to hit targets from 1500-2100nm ; the F-35 is close but there is a lot of ~but~. GAO did a report on the USAF's F35 and the readiness is about 40%, while the more complex STOL and heavier naval version is less then 40% ready. There is some AF F35 that is two years awaiting parts. Not really good for the F35. So the ~but~ is about getting it ready for a real war, and it may not make the dance for a strike much less a war.. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 9:21:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Article written by a former RF-4 back-seater who has some serious deficiencies in his understanding of a bunch of things. Bomb truck has never been an idea that had merit among people who actually understand missile kinematics, and that launch aircraft speed and altitude are a key portion of it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fascinating article argues that with the traditional 'air superiority fighter' no longer makes sense, and that the future of air superiority is more like a B21 then a F22. Advancements in stealth, networked sensors, very long range missiles negate the advantages of aircraft speed and manuevarability, while the very long distances involved in fighting China in the Pacific means that traditional fighter jets just dont have the range needed. Article written by a former RF-4 back-seater who has some serious deficiencies in his understanding of a bunch of things. Bomb truck has never been an idea that had merit among people who actually understand missile kinematics, and that launch aircraft speed and altitude are a key portion of it. A B21 would be launching from potentially 60,000', that seems like plenty of altitude no? In terms of launch speed, that would be advantageous, but it seems like a larger B21 optimized missile could overcome that? The plane is still moving ~600mph, whereas ground based air defense missiles are proving effective launched at 0mph. Theres also plans to field future missile armed 'wingman' drones in the future, which I suspect would be subsonic and firing smaller missiles then what a B21 would launch. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 9:34:25 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 12/13/2023 9:34:59 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 12/13/2023 9:35:17 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 12/13/2023 9:36:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go listen to the Ward Carroll stuff on youtube, they were supposed to build a thousand of these to replace old F15's. Then production got cut to less than 200 so they could build MRAP's instead. They milked another 20 years out of the F15's and they are now falling apart. They aren't building F35's fast enough, so they grabbed some F15's out of Qatar's production line and are building new F15ex models with updates from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. (yes, we are still actively building F15's for other countries) Not stealth, but mach 2.5. It outruns the F35 in a straight line. Not being stealth, it can turn up the wattage on the radar and see stuff the F35 can't. You children could be flying F15's with modern upgrades. The plan is to have two different tools to use. For general use, it makes sense to have some cheaper aircraft for more mundane tasks. It's kind of cool. Your story needs a clean up with details, and the correct details. If that's what you learned from Carroll, and a rewatch has the same info, then don't watch his channel. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:05:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is your answer to my question. An insult instead of answering a very direct question. No wonder our schools our producing graduates who cannot write, not read genius. You forgot a comma after “read”. 54% of HS graduates are nonfunctional. We’re doomed. Thanks for illustrating the what and why of that. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:19:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not a military or an air force expert , but I believe the f22 is the most dominant fighter jet ever produced . This is just my opinion , and doesn’t amount to a hill of beans , but I am glad we have it . Needs a tail hook! |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:34:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Article written by a former RF-4 back-seater who has some serious deficiencies in his understanding of a bunch of things. Bomb truck has never been an idea that had merit among people who actually understand missile kinematics, and that launch aircraft speed and altitude are a key portion of it. What’s your take on what the Long Range Engagement Weapon is for? |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:39:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We have retired hundreds of F16’s and F15’s. The airframes only last so long. They were replaced with new aircraft. It’s not like they are flying planes made in the 1970’s. It’s a 50 year old design, not 50 year old equipment. In fact, you can find dozens of the older ones in aircraft museums and on display. The Air Force no longer purchases F16’s and is phasing them out as the F35 comes online. Same will happen to the F15 as the NGAD comes online at the end of this decade. No new F22’s are in production so it will leave service sooner. I don’t agree with the termination of the F22 program, but the newer F15 variants did not leave us at a disadvantage. The F15 was and still is the best air superiority fighter on the planet next to the F22. Air Force is starting to talk about a new lower tier aircraft to replace the F-16. They’ve talked about armed trainers or something that’s F-16 like but with open architecture. The need is for an aircraft to intercept cruise missiles, wandering Cessnas, hijacked aircraft etc. while keeping costs low. Don’t know if it will go anywhere. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:40:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obama didn’t kill it. Robert Gates did. Let’s lay the blame where it belongs. He was right to do it, too. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:40:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a dead-end as far as technology goes, but we don't have a single stealth fighter beyond the F35 that could provide vital air-to-air ability currently. I imagine the F22 will only be in inventory for another 10-20 years. But then the military has a hard time getting rid of aircraft sometimes : Look at how many want to retain the (Insert any fighter in inventory now). Edit : I pulled the Air Force's numbers, for the cost of sustaining the F22 through 2030 and some upgrades (Stealth external fuel tanks + sensor upgrades) the cost is around $9 billion. The alternative would be buying another 120 F35s. So, what would be the better fiscal policy? 150 F22 raptors by 2030 or another 120 F35s with better capabilities? The F-35 would be the slowest, most lightly armed interceptor in history. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:48:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today. No, Obama didn't kill the program. The final production numbers were set before he ever came into office, and largely before he was even a US Senator. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 10:58:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There's nothing wrong with the Raptor. It is a technologocal marvel that has yet to be surpassed. Unfortunately politics and spiraling costs of the JSF/F35 made it look expensive and impractical. It’s still a great fighter and yet another in our history of good air frames that never got a chance to shine. The F22 appears to be the only who hast had a chance to shine. We are selling more aF35s than we are keeping. That is not the case with F22 We only built 195 F-22s they are very limited numbers. The F-35 is at almost 1,000 and counting. As others have said, the program got killed off in favor of the F-35. As someone who has worked on both and sees both fly daily they are both excellent machines. But I understand why they wanted one platform across all Branchs of Service with Fighters. The logistics alone of only having to have parts for one plane is a huge cost saver. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:00:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kinda this. Kinda built for an environment of soviet and china super fighters and hypersonic cruise missiles that just isnt materializing. Its also not as networked for the next gen battlespace as the f35. But fuck it was dumb idea to destroy the tooling. We should have built the full 600 and allowed select countries to buy them. UK, Australia, Japan, etc. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:01:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today. Yes |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:07:29 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are only 180 F-22s left in the operational inventory. Compare that to the 800+ F-16s and it is easy to see why we would retire the F-22. As the aircraft fleet ages, parts become harder to procure, manufacture, or cannibalize leading to lower mission capable rates, longer lead times for MICAPs and increased phase maintenance requirements. I think it’s only 160 left. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:22:13 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We only built 195 F-22s they are very limited numbers. The F-35 is at almost 1,000 and counting. As others have said, the program got killed off in favor of the F-35.... We only NEED a few F22s. Once they are on station, the opposing force gets decimated. Used as a force multiplier along with other aircraft the job is getting done. The opposing force/threat soon is depleted and lessor airplanes can then do the job. The addition of new technologies and modern aircraft (F35 etc) meant that the numbers first proposed are just not needed. We can do more with less. (I started working on the ATF program in the mid 80s and by then we had most of the design work figured out). |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:24:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But fuck it was dumb idea to destroy the tooling. Companies don’t have the space, time, or money to preserve any part of the production processes when programs are over. It is industry standard for a reason. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:27:40 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not stealth, but mach 2.5. Ahh, the ol’ Mach 2.5 Eagle. As Joe Isuzu used to say, “Downhill. In a hurricane.” |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:35:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s your take on what the Long Range Engagement Weapon is for? First look, first shot, higher Pk at longer ranges than the AMRAAM against 5th gen threats in an EA environment. Rand Corp studies have to be taken with the same grain of salt they’re produced with. They’re thought experiments, not tactics development. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:40:41 PM EDT
[#46]
It turned out that our adversaries new tech is inferior to our old tech and we still have a lot of old tech.
I think our strength is still superior logistics and the ability to protect force when it comes to a heads up confrontation. However the world is changing and while the F22 is a superior fighter by a long shot, you can't intercept a cyber attack or foreign funded legal invadionnwith a jet. Were not nearly as much at risk of falling to lost military battles as we are asymmetrical warfare. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:42:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are assuming they do not without any evidence. A key decision point was Obama limiting the number made, all his decisions were contrary to the interests of the United States |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:49:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: However the world is changing and while the F22 is a superior fighter by a long shot, you can't intercept a cyber attack or foreign funded legal invadionnwith a jet. Were not nearly as much at risk of falling to lost military battles as we are asymmetrical warfare. This is 100% true. There is a lot of serious soul-searching at numerous levels about what the future of combat airpower actually looks like, and almost universally a superfighter like the Raptor isn’t it. The NGAD’s short development cycle is part of that attempt to stop designing weapons to win the last war. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:55:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, Obama didn't kill the program. The final production numbers were set before he ever came into office, and largely before he was even a US Senator. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today. No, Obama didn't kill the program. The final production numbers were set before he ever came into office, and largely before he was even a US Senator. That was in the FY10 budget. |
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Posted: 12/13/2023 11:57:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But fuck it was dumb idea to destroy the tooling. |
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