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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2024 8:21:45 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: There is court precedence in regards to sporting purposes. Hunting and target shooting are both sporting purposes. There is also SCOTUS precedence that has been cited in cases after Bruen even which emphasizes that when the wording is similar, but not identical, in different parts of the same statute, you may not read into it meanings that are the same. ATF gets to decide prima facie whether a shotgun is legal based on if they decide it is particularly suitable for sporting purposes (the law specifies shotguns are legal based on the findings of the director), but rifles are based on the owners intent. So...Fuck ATFs feelings. So why are 20mm rifles NFA if long range target shooting is a sport? I mean anything we can do there? |
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Posted: 1/13/2024 8:56:31 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagoth-Ur: So why are 20mm rifles NFA if long range target shooting is a sport? I mean anything we can do there? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagoth-Ur: Originally Posted By Ben: There is court precedence in regards to sporting purposes. Hunting and target shooting are both sporting purposes. There is also SCOTUS precedence that has been cited in cases after Bruen even which emphasizes that when the wording is similar, but not identical, in different parts of the same statute, you may not read into it meanings that are the same. ATF gets to decide prima facie whether a shotgun is legal based on if they decide it is particularly suitable for sporting purposes (the law specifies shotguns are legal based on the findings of the director), but rifles are based on the owners intent. So...Fuck ATFs feelings. So why are 20mm rifles NFA if long range target shooting is a sport? I mean anything we can do there? Because back before the internet with the limited information available, it was even easier for ATF to pressure people into doing whatever they wanted. If ATF said you need to do X, you pretty much had to get a lawyer who also wouldn't have any rapid means of information collection, or you had to take ATFs word. So, as ATF is prone to do, they lied. And pretty much all the 20mm rifles went on the register. And now FFLs are, understandably so, afraid to manufacture and sell anything over .50 caliber because regardless of what the law actually is...when ATF is pissed at an FFL, they will find a way to yank that FFLs license. Poof, out of a job. Private individuals making 20mm rifles is different though- because ATF would have to prove criminal intent. They couldn't just use administrative magic to yank your license to do business. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2024 11:06:23 AM EST
[#3]
Ben I need updates. My pregnant wife approved me purchasing one of these before the baby gets here.
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Posted: 1/13/2024 12:32:44 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTyrannyTractor: Ben I need updates. My pregnant wife approved me purchasing one of these before the baby gets here. I'll have some big updates in about a week when I am meeting in person with the manufacturer again. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2024 12:47:26 PM EST
[#5]
Yes.
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2024 4:49:37 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTyrannyTractor: Ben I need updates. My pregnant wife approved me purchasing one of these before the baby gets here. Pack the head with pink/blue dust, gender reveal! |
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Posted: 1/13/2024 6:15:31 PM EST
[#7]
TAG
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Posted: 1/13/2024 6:51:45 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Because back before the internet with the limited information available, it was even easier for ATF to pressure people into doing whatever they wanted. If ATF said you need to do X, you pretty much had to get a lawyer who also wouldn't have any rapid means of information collection, or you had to take ATFs word. So, as ATF is prone to do, they lied. And pretty much all the 20mm rifles went on the register. And now FFLs are, understandably so, afraid to manufacture and sell anything over .50 caliber because regardless of what the law actually is...when ATF is pissed at an FFL, they will find a way to yank that FFLs license. Poof, out of a job. Private individuals making 20mm rifles is different though- because ATF would have to prove criminal intent. They couldn't just use administrative magic to yank your license to do business. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By Dagoth-Ur: Originally Posted By Ben: There is court precedence in regards to sporting purposes. Hunting and target shooting are both sporting purposes. There is also SCOTUS precedence that has been cited in cases after Bruen even which emphasizes that when the wording is similar, but not identical, in different parts of the same statute, you may not read into it meanings that are the same. ATF gets to decide prima facie whether a shotgun is legal based on if they decide it is particularly suitable for sporting purposes (the law specifies shotguns are legal based on the findings of the director), but rifles are based on the owners intent. So...Fuck ATFs feelings. So why are 20mm rifles NFA if long range target shooting is a sport? I mean anything we can do there? Because back before the internet with the limited information available, it was even easier for ATF to pressure people into doing whatever they wanted. If ATF said you need to do X, you pretty much had to get a lawyer who also wouldn't have any rapid means of information collection, or you had to take ATFs word. So, as ATF is prone to do, they lied. And pretty much all the 20mm rifles went on the register. And now FFLs are, understandably so, afraid to manufacture and sell anything over .50 caliber because regardless of what the law actually is...when ATF is pissed at an FFL, they will find a way to yank that FFLs license. Poof, out of a job. Private individuals making 20mm rifles is different though- because ATF would have to prove criminal intent. They couldn't just use administrative magic to yank your license to do business. Just an observation, but the unwritten(?) ATF policy seems to be that if a particular >.50 cal chambering was originally used in a firearm produced for a military, then the ATF takes that as prima facie evidence that the firearm won't be used for sporting purposes. |
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Posted: 1/13/2024 8:02:27 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CleverNickname: Just an observation, but the unwritten(?) ATF policy seems to be that if a particular >.50 cal chambering was originally used in a firearm produced for a military, then the ATF takes that as prima facie evidence that the firearm won't be used for sporting purposes. That is their take. Here is the rub though- the doesn't leave it up to them to determine. If a firearm in 20mm is used in a crime, then it is up to them to investigate and prosecute it as unlaw use of a DD. But that does not make all 20mm owners guilty of intending to use theirs for non-sporting purposes. |
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Posted: 1/13/2024 8:35:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: EagleArmsHBAR]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: That is their take. Here is the rub though- the doesn't leave it up to them to determine. If a firearm in 20mm is used in a crime, then it is up to them to investigate and prosecute it as unlaw use of a DD. But that does not make all 20mm owners guilty of intending to use theirs for non-sporting purposes. |
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Posted: 1/13/2024 9:07:46 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryI could use some of those Allis parts... |
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Posted: 1/13/2024 11:01:53 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: That is their take. Here is the rub though- the doesn't leave it up to them to determine. If a firearm in 20mm is used in a crime, then it is up to them to investigate and prosecute it as unlaw use of a DD. But that does not make all 20mm owners guilty of intending to use theirs for non-sporting purposes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By CleverNickname: Just an observation, but the unwritten(?) ATF policy seems to be that if a particular >.50 cal chambering was originally used in a firearm produced for a military, then the ATF takes that as prima facie evidence that the firearm won't be used for sporting purposes. That is their take. Here is the rub though- the doesn't leave it up to them to determine. If a firearm in 20mm is used in a crime, then it is up to them to investigate and prosecute it as unlaw use of a DD. But that does not make all 20mm owners guilty of intending to use theirs for non-sporting purposes. But following that line of thinking, wouldn't legal non-sporting use of a >.50 cal firearm, i.e. self defense, also make the firearm a DD? Say someone uses a 40mm beehive on a home invader (that was the most plausible thing I could think up). The "crime" would be using in a non-sporting manner. |
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Posted: 1/14/2024 1:34:56 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CleverNickname: But following that line of thinking, wouldn't legal non-sporting use of a >.50 cal firearm, i.e. self defense, also make the firearm a DD? Say someone uses a 40mm beehive on a home invader (that was the most plausible thing I could think up). The "crime" would be using in a non-sporting manner. In the strictest sense, yes. But remember that laws don't always follow logic. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2024 11:33:04 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: By this logic they should be approving import permits for semi auto AK47, HK91, and FAL rifles in original configuration since all are intended to only be used for sporting purposes. This could potentially nullify the 89 ban. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: Originally Posted By Ben: That is their take. Here is the rub though- the doesn't leave it up to them to determine. If a firearm in 20mm is used in a crime, then it is up to them to investigate and prosecute it as unlaw use of a DD. But that does not make all 20mm owners guilty of intending to use theirs for non-sporting purposes. suckered! Back in 2019 the deputy director of ATF wrote a white paper, obviously targeted at Trump, exploring the question of what things ATF could do differently to help gun owners out. Quite a bit of the paper discussed the sporting clause, and the question of what was sporting. The director pretty clearly outlined how 3 gun had far more participants than say sporting clays, and that by any plain English reading of the law, 3 gun is a sport. His counter argument was that Congress had passed the import ban to ban *something*, and taking the view that everything is sporting means deciding Congress didn't actually intend to ban anything. It's a legitimate open legal question that can't really be resolved short of a SCOTUS case. |
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Posted: 1/14/2024 5:24:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: Gamma762]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WesJanson: His counter argument was that Congress had passed the import ban to ban *something* Gun bans frequently don't have any kind of rational or cogent basis. The most basic legal test in the judiciary is the "rational basis" test, and unfortunately the judiciary is often just as ignorant and malinformed, or just phobic about firearms to be able to make reasonable determinations. |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 12:45:34 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CleverNickname: But following that line of thinking, wouldn't legal non-sporting use of a >.50 cal firearm, i.e. self defense, also make the firearm a DD? Say someone uses a 40mm beehive on a home invader (that was the most plausible thing I could think up). The "crime" would be using in a non-sporting manner. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CleverNickname: Originally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By CleverNickname: Just an observation, but the unwritten(?) ATF policy seems to be that if a particular >.50 cal chambering was originally used in a firearm produced for a military, then the ATF takes that as prima facie evidence that the firearm won't be used for sporting purposes. That is their take. Here is the rub though- the doesn't leave it up to them to determine. If a firearm in 20mm is used in a crime, then it is up to them to investigate and prosecute it as unlaw use of a DD. But that does not make all 20mm owners guilty of intending to use theirs for non-sporting purposes. But following that line of thinking, wouldn't legal non-sporting use of a >.50 cal firearm, i.e. self defense, also make the firearm a DD? Say someone uses a 40mm beehive on a home invader (that was the most plausible thing I could think up). The "crime" would be using in a non-sporting manner. Are you saying putting out the same wide screen tv box on the curb every night isn't sporting? Our burglar season laws say nothing about baiting the field. |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 12:47:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: Papposilenus]
[#17]
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Posted: 1/15/2024 8:20:13 AM EST
[#18]
So
We should create a national sport club with ranking and awards and a standard course of fire for this thing is what I'm hearing... |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 9:59:50 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: So We should create a national sport club with ranking and awards and a standard course of fire for this thing is what I'm hearing... Right now it is classed the same as a 37mm launcher. It isn't a firearm. And if it was a firearm, it would need to be a rifled barrel to be exempted based on the owners intent and not on am ATF determination. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2024 10:12:33 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By homeyclaus: Hogs in TX proliferated because there are more land owners wanting to charge people big bucks for hunting feral swine on their property. Now they're everywhere, the hunters are somewhere else, and the land owners have to pay to control them. And indirectly we do, because crop loss insurance is a thing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By homeyclaus: Originally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By rbutcher: Originally Posted By Ben: Let this sink in... A civil war era 6lbs artillery piece spherical case shot shell had a 1/2oz blackpowder bursting charge. A device can have up to a .25oz bursting charge without being a DD. Modern explosives and smokeless powder is far more powerful than black powder. A non-DD 40mm round with a 1/4oz bursting charge and fragmentation for hog hunting is going to be available soon. It will likely have something like a 15' expected casualty radius. I am interested in this 40mm round since I have a 203 and a massive hog problem at my ranch…. I recently learned people will pay you to eliminate hogs on their property. I'm up for a road trip... Hogs in TX proliferated because there are more land owners wanting to charge people big bucks for hunting feral swine on their property. Now they're everywhere, the hunters are somewhere else, and the land owners have to pay to control them. And indirectly we do, because crop loss insurance is a thing. This is accurate. I tried killing some pigs and every farmer I spoke too wanted to charge me around $300 per day to kill their nuisance animals. I wasn’t that interested in hog hunting. lol. (Circa 03) |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 1/20/2024 5:17:38 PM EST
[#21]
Bump for additional info whenever Ben gets it.
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Posted: 1/20/2024 5:18:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: Ben]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenoGS: Bump for additional info whenever Ben gets it. I'll be seeing the manufacturer next week. Was going to be today but I had to push back to Wednesday. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/22/2024 7:45:00 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: In the strictest sense, yes. But remember that laws don't always follow logic. I think I found my future Sigline |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2024 5:09:27 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: I'll be seeing the manufacturer next week. Was going to be today but I had to push back to Wednesday. Updates? |
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Posted: 1/29/2024 5:40:05 AM EST
[#25]
Were gonna need some Bangalore torpedoes too.
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Posted: 1/29/2024 10:42:47 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PrincipsPistol: Were gonna need some Bangalore torpedoes too. Tryin to get into Texas? 
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Posted: 1/29/2024 9:33:37 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MHIDPA: Tryin to get into Texas? Were it that they were necessary to do so. Unfortunately, our own government removes those obstacles. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2024 6:22:50 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MHIDPA: Tryin to get into Texas? Not funny…Ok, maybe a little. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2024 8:18:59 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: I'll be seeing the manufacturer next week. Was going to be today but I had to push back to Wednesday. @Ben any updates? |
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Posted: 3/6/2024 7:44:01 PM EST
[#30]
Anything?
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Posted: 3/7/2024 12:13:29 PM EST
[#31]
Man, why even start threads like these when you don't have any info to share. Pure click bait.
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Posted: 3/7/2024 3:40:54 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: By this logic they should be approving import permits for semi auto AK47, HK91, and FAL rifles in original configuration since all are intended to only be used for sporting purposes. This could potentially nullify the 89 ban. Yes 
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Posted: 3/7/2024 3:50:21 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stonia: Man, why even start threads like these when you don't have any info to share. Pure click bait. He could just be waiting on a determination letter or dealing with personal stuff, if you don’t want to wait, just get a form 4 or form 1 version. Turnaround time is going super fast the moment . No need to be a dick |
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Posted: 3/7/2024 3:58:51 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: He could just be waiting on a determination letter or dealing with personal stuff, if you don’t want to wait, just get a form 4 or form 1 version. Turnaround time is going super fast the moment . No need to be a dick Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Originally Posted By Stonia: Man, why even start threads like these when you don't have any info to share. Pure click bait. He could just be waiting on a determination letter or dealing with personal stuff, if you don’t want to wait, just get a form 4 or form 1 version. Turnaround time is going super fast the moment . No need to be a dick Sure he could be any of that and I believe Ben will have something awesome to share in the future, but why start a cryptic thread with weeks of no detail rather than waiting until you have something to actually share? |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:33:20 AM EST
[#35]
Bump to save
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WI, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2024 5:59:21 PM EST
[#36]
Anymore updates?
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Posted: 3/23/2024 6:38:22 PM EST
[#37]
There was a guy walking around the AZ G&F Expo today with some type of RPG launcher on a sling and a “Fuck ATF” t-shirt.
Probably a demil but I wondered if it was related to this. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 4:50:54 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FightingHellfish: There was a guy walking around the AZ G&F Expo today with some type of RPG launcher on a sling and a “Fuck ATF” t-shirt. Probably a demil but I wondered if it was related to this. He was on the Tube or the Gram last week, wasn't he? |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 5:28:16 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: He was on the Tube or the Gram last week, wasn't he? I didn’t see it. I get all worked up and mad on my own without looking at gun YouTube. Got a link? |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 6:38:17 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FightingHellfish: I didn’t see it. I get all worked up and mad on my own without looking at gun YouTube. Got a link? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FightingHellfish: Originally Posted By backbencher: He was on the Tube or the Gram last week, wasn't he? I didn’t see it. I get all worked up and mad on my own without looking at gun YouTube. Got a link? No, hence my question, lol. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 6:50:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: MHIDPA]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FightingHellfish: I didn’t see it. I get all worked up and mad on my own without looking at gun YouTube. Got a link? https://x.com/DallasRiffRaff/status/1767009896526967189?t=4X-n54t4K9SrYqYtEH9fcQ&s=35 |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 7:01:35 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: By this logic they should be approving import permits for semi auto AK47, HK91, and FAL rifles in original configuration since all are intended to only be used for sporting purposes. This could potentially nullify the 89 ban. There are many aspects of gun control that are simply by administrative fiat, and a suitably inclined administration could change course on. No administration has been suitably inclined. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 7:55:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: FightingHellfish]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MHIDPA: https://x.com/DallasRiffRaff/status/1767009896526967189?t=4X-n54t4K9SrYqYtEH9fcQ&s=35 Yeah. That’s the guy I saw. I almost asked him about it, but he was busy at the NRA booth. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:54:16 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stonia: Sure he could be any of that and I believe Ben will have something awesome to share in the future, but why start a cryptic thread with weeks of no detail rather than waiting until you have something to actually share? This particular project is largely in another person's hands, and they got delayed for a mix of personal and professional reasons, which then delays me having anything. When I started this thread, we (the lead on this and I) legitimately thought we'd have a lot more in days (and should have). I have a price sheet now, as of a couple days ago, and I understand there are units ready to ship. I've reached back over to the manufacturer for more. I apologize for the delays on this and other things I've been working on. My life is a little upside down these past couple months. Like spent 20 years worth of savings in 6 months upside down. Please be patient, I will put out more as soon as I have it and time allows. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 8:25:00 AM EST
[#45]
Bump.
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Posted: 5/25/2024 4:36:49 AM EST
[#46]
Saturday morning bump.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/22/2024 5:15:11 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By steelworker: Saturday |
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Posted: 6/29/2024 5:54:49 PM EST
[#48]
Saturday Bump
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Posted: 6/29/2024 9:46:05 PM EST
[#49]
I've been playing a ton of Helldivers lately I NEED A REAL LIFE EXPENDABLE ANTI-TANK FOR REASONS.
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Posted: 6/29/2024 10:02:34 PM EST
[#50]
How about a tease?
 Flak jacket was for humor but functional if something goes terribly wrong. |
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