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Posted: 4/24/2021 11:05:21 PM EDT
[#1]
The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:38:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:59:52 AM EDT
[#3]
I assume because aircraft are getting larger, and fusing options available in larger guns make hits more likely? But I don’t know.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 4:28:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 4:43:26 AM EDT
[#5]
I like old school fighters like the F-104 and the F-4 phantom.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 4:56:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ I'd understand if they were using airbursting / proximity fused. But at least for the 25mm its still impact initiated direct hit. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 4:59:19 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ But a 25 gives them more options for future growth than a 20. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 5:04:16 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But a 25 gives them more options for future growth than a 20. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ But a 25 gives them more options for future growth than a 20. Possibly, but even the 27mm Eurofighter uses an AP frangible load, not airbursting. https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/weapons_and_ammunition/direct_fire/mittelkalibermunition/index.php Since all the current loads in 20-25-27 use direct hit to function, it seems like a higher ROF + Higher mag capacity would be more beneficial then the increase in HE load per shell, since all the shells are pretty anemic (below a 40x53 in HE content.) |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 5:13:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Edit: Fuck F-15's.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 5:15:13 AM EDT
[#10]
The Israelis raped Arabs with it. Many kills.. 0 losses iirc.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 5:21:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The best looking https://i.imgur.com/TcqIlLq.jpg 2nd place https://i.imgur.com/Wo2BJ0X.jpg Then the Eagle https://i.imgur.com/nLRDCyz.jpg Negative. F-18 is the sexiest aircraft ever designed. 
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Posted: 4/25/2021 6:50:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Possibly, but even the 27mm Eurofighter uses an AP frangible load, not airbursting. https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/weapons_and_ammunition/direct_fire/mittelkalibermunition/index.php Since all the current loads in 20-25-27 use direct hit to function, it seems like a higher ROF + Higher mag capacity would be more beneficial then the increase in HE load per shell, since all the shells are pretty anemic (below a 40x53 in HE content.) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ But a 25 gives them more options for future growth than a 20. Possibly, but even the 27mm Eurofighter uses an AP frangible load, not airbursting. https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/weapons_and_ammunition/direct_fire/mittelkalibermunition/index.php Since all the current loads in 20-25-27 use direct hit to function, it seems like a higher ROF + Higher mag capacity would be more beneficial then the increase in HE load per shell, since all the shells are pretty anemic (below a 40x53 in HE content.) Maybe the 30x173 is the answer, there's already a lot of development going on with its ammo? Bring back the Oerlikon KCA. 
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Posted: 4/25/2021 7:54:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe the 30x173 is the answer, there's already a lot of development going on with its ammo? Bring back the Oerlikon KCA. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ But a 25 gives them more options for future growth than a 20. Possibly, but even the 27mm Eurofighter uses an AP frangible load, not airbursting. https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/weapons_and_ammunition/direct_fire/mittelkalibermunition/index.php Since all the current loads in 20-25-27 use direct hit to function, it seems like a higher ROF + Higher mag capacity would be more beneficial then the increase in HE load per shell, since all the shells are pretty anemic (below a 40x53 in HE content.) Maybe the 30x173 is the answer, there's already a lot of development going on with its ammo? Bring back the Oerlikon KCA. France uses a 30x150mm in the Rafeale; but its still the same style of projectile as the US 20mm: https://www.armscom.net/products/30mm_x_150_saphei_ammunition_for_30m791_cannon Russia also uses a 30mm in the MIG 29, possibly others, but with only 100-150rds. It also uses direct impact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-30-1#Ammunition I'm actually surprised no one uses an airburst round; I imagine its because none of the shells have enough effect when airburst and thats why they are all direct impact. Most autocannon shells have a '5m lethal radius' and that is measured by a fragments ability to penetrate a 2mm Aluminum sheet. And the fragments themselves are 1-5gr. So I suspect that airbursting - while lethal against infantry - isn't that effective against aircraft until you get up to the Bofors 40-57mm zone. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 8:00:35 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The perfect combat record says a lot about the USAF, its pilots and the total war environment they create. High speed and 2 turbines is nice and allows for the ability to get to a base if something goes wrong. Amazing we make jets that do not have 2 turbines and cost over $100 million each. Plus the F-22 looks like a duck.  It says more about the IAF, since they have done more air combat with it than the USAF. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 8:07:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "not a pound for air-to-ground" is a BS myth. C models had the capability from day one and pilots actually trained and practiced dropping bombs. And the IDF actually used C/D models to attack ground targets in the '80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wooden_Leg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/54089/40469371481_79b7714df4_b_jpg-1916380.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/54089/12191695_10153737129692938_5519854367553-1916382.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted:    You sure about that? Uhh yeah. C version is a true A2A fighter. Not like the stupid strike eagle. The "not a pound for air-to-ground" is a BS myth. C models had the capability from day one and pilots actually trained and practiced dropping bombs. And the IDF actually used C/D models to attack ground targets in the '80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wooden_Leg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/54089/40469371481_79b7714df4_b_jpg-1916380.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/54089/12191695_10153737129692938_5519854367553-1916382.JPG I think they used B-models for Wooden Leg. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 8:08:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Best kill ratio belongs to the A-10. Ask a bunch of Iraqi tank crews. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The F-22 is probably the best fighter ever made. The F-14 has the best kill ratio (thanks to and if you believe Iran) . Best kill ratio belongs to the A-10. Ask a bunch of Iraqi tank crews. F-15E doing tank plinking could kill more tanks per sortie and never lost an aircraft doing that mission. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 8:57:58 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: E models only hold 500 rounds. A-D model F-15s hold 940 rounds of 20 mm. That E model ammo box is junk. Grrrrr, I briefly got exposed to them years ago at Luke. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:50:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: France uses a 30x150mm in the Rafeale; but its still the same style of projectile as the US 20mm: https://www.armscom.net/products/30mm_x_150_saphei_ammunition_for_30m791_cannon Russia also uses a 30mm in the MIG 29, possibly others, but with only 100-150rds. It also uses direct impact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-30-1#Ammunition I'm actually surprised no one uses an airburst round; I imagine its because none of the shells have enough effect when airburst and thats why they are all direct impact. Most autocannon shells have a '5m lethal radius' and that is measured by a fragments ability to penetrate a 2mm Aluminum sheet. And the fragments themselves are 1-5gr. So I suspect that airbursting - while lethal against infantry - isn't that effective against aircraft until you get up to the Bofors 40-57mm zone. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The world is moving to larger aircraft guns. I’m surprised they still have guns at all though. I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds More HE per round and more advanced fuzes. Deff more HE. Not sure about better fuzes for Jets: F35 25mm uses the same impact initiated APHEI type load as the 20mm, just with an extra tungsten penetrator for better use against ground targets: https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/25-mm-series/25mm-apex/ https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/medium-caliber-ammunition/20-mm-series/20-mm-x-102-mp-ld-m70/ But a 25 gives them more options for future growth than a 20. Possibly, but even the 27mm Eurofighter uses an AP frangible load, not airbursting. https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/weapons_and_ammunition/direct_fire/mittelkalibermunition/index.php Since all the current loads in 20-25-27 use direct hit to function, it seems like a higher ROF + Higher mag capacity would be more beneficial then the increase in HE load per shell, since all the shells are pretty anemic (below a 40x53 in HE content.) Maybe the 30x173 is the answer, there's already a lot of development going on with its ammo? Bring back the Oerlikon KCA. France uses a 30x150mm in the Rafeale; but its still the same style of projectile as the US 20mm: https://www.armscom.net/products/30mm_x_150_saphei_ammunition_for_30m791_cannon Russia also uses a 30mm in the MIG 29, possibly others, but with only 100-150rds. It also uses direct impact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-30-1#Ammunition I'm actually surprised no one uses an airburst round; I imagine its because none of the shells have enough effect when airburst and thats why they are all direct impact. Most autocannon shells have a '5m lethal radius' and that is measured by a fragments ability to penetrate a 2mm Aluminum sheet. And the fragments themselves are 1-5gr. So I suspect that airbursting - while lethal against infantry - isn't that effective against aircraft until you get up to the Bofors 40-57mm zone. I know that it would be very impractical, but the idea of a fighter with a 40mm gun makes me hard. 
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:58:37 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would you believe me if I told you I’ve had strike eagles flying dca cap for an MQ-9? Yup |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:00:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I was going to design a plane, it'd be the F-15 with an A-10 gun on it too. Metal as fuck |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:02:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious why that is. Theres no real increase in range, the jets aren't armored, and a smaller caliber has more capacity and greater rate of fire for increased hit probability against supersonic aircraft. 20mm Vulcan F15E/EX: 6000rpm, 500rds 25mm Avenger GAU22/A F35: 3300rpm, 180-220rds depending on F35 model 27mm Masuer BK27 Eurofighter: 1700rpm, 150rds Europe never did have the massive stockpiles of 20mm sitting around nor the sheer amount of M61s collecting dust, waiting to be unpackaged and thrown into a plane. US designers were more of "Alright, we need a gun for the plane. Let's just use whatever we first see in the warehouse. 20mm M61? Yeah that'll do. Put it in." |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:09:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An air launched SM-6 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/56204/E1111FA8-980C-445E-AAC7-2E4B788A067B_jpe-1917565.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Curious as to what magical missile has a range of 300+ miles An air launched SM-6 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/56204/E1111FA8-980C-445E-AAC7-2E4B788A067B_jpe-1917565.JPG Still not 300...but 150 maybe. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:45:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F-15E doing tank plinking could kill more tanks per sortie and never lost an aircraft doing that mission. Guns are obsolete fir that. Including on the A-10. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:39:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It says more about the IAF, since they have done more air combat with it than the USAF. Having flown with and trained with the Israelis in the Eagle, what it really says is something about their adversaries. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:43:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Great aircraft, but the F-22 can, and HAS, kicked the dogshit out of multiple Eagles at the same time. In fact, the F-22 got 2 of them before the Eagle drivers even knew that it was up.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:46:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm actually surprised no one uses an airburst round; I imagine its because none of the shells have enough effect when airburst and thats why they are all direct impact. Most autocannon shells have a '5m lethal radius' and that is measured by a fragments ability to penetrate a 2mm Aluminum sheet. And the fragments themselves are 1-5gr. So I suspect that airbursting - while lethal against infantry - isn't that effective against aircraft until you get up to the Bofors 40-57mm zone. Let's remember that air-to-air gunnery is more like using a chainsaw and less like using a sniper rifle. Although it is a highly discriminating weapon compared to missiles, it isn't all that precise in terms of individual bullet impacts and relies more on the effect of dozens of hits. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:48:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: 2000+ mph top speed Can cross the Atlantic without refuling 
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:52:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great aircraft, but the F-22 can, and HAS, kicked the dogshit out of multiple Eagles at the same time. In fact, the F-22 got 2 of them before the Eagle drivers even knew that it was up. That's not even the half of it. I've reported before that I participated in F-22 OT&E back in the '00s in which we flew 12-v-2 F-15Es against F-22s, 2 goes per day, for a week. Initially there were some handcuffs and we were simulating specific peer-nation threats, but after those trials we were cleared to be "full up bandits." During that time not a single Raptor was killed, and all of the Eagles were systematically picked off. We tried...believe me, we tried every single dirty trick we could think of. Deceptive formations, direct and indirect terrain masking, EMIS LIMIT, jamming, special radar modes....you name it, we used every cheat that we could think of in the Strike Eagles to beat the Raptors....and they absolutely mopped the floor with us. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:04:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having flown with and trained with the Israelis in the Eagle, what it really says is something about their adversaries. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It says more about the IAF, since they have done more air combat with it than the USAF. Having flown with and trained with the Israelis in the Eagle, what it really says is something about their adversaries.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:10:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Raptor
But, I've always had a soft spot for the Typhoon... |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:15:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did that in the 70's, but I was in the intermediate maintenance shop, so various bits and pieces inside the LRU's. And the test stations. I wonder if the air inlet controllers work for long now ... . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Go kart with wings... I have built many F15 parts. Fuck titanium. I have salvaged millions of dollars worth of titanium F-15 parts; in the 80's! . I have removed and replaced millions of dollars worth of F-15 parts. I did that in the 70's, but I was in the intermediate maintenance shop, so various bits and pieces inside the LRU's. And the test stations. I wonder if the air inlet controllers work for long now ... . I don't remember them being very reliable. I think I've heard the new models rolling off the line no longer have AICs. |
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