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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:35:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How thick a cable do you recommend using? After all, between a modern locomotive and a D11, we are looking at at least 500,000 to 600,000 of opposing tractive force imposed on a single point of failure. Why not just use the same coupling device the train already uses? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:39:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Locomotive, easily.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:46:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not just use the same coupling device the train already uses? Knuckle would explode. They already break if not careful when starting a train out, couldn't imagine what would happen when something was pulling the other direction with such force 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:50:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not just use the same coupling device the train already uses? Are those made to have equal forces pulling in both directions? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:53:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are those made to have equal forces pulling in both directions? Daisy chain them together. One can take the pull from one way, the other takes it from the other. 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:54:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Daisy chain them together. One can take the pull from one way, the other takes it from the other. Like a train car? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:03:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New contestant: Crawler Transporter 6 million pounds, 5,364hp powering 16 traction motors running 8 treads https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Crawler-Transporter.jpg/2560px-Crawler-Transporter.jpg Max speed 2mph |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:09:37 PM EDT
[#8]
drawbar pull on a D11 at max weight appears to be approximately 260,000 lbs
https://ccmodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Cat-D11N-Dozer-specs.pdf Tractive effort on a Dash 9 appears to be 142,000 lbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Dash_9-44CW |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:16:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does a locomotive get all those cars moving? They start really slow. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:18:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are those made to have equal forces pulling in both directions? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why not just use the same coupling device the train already uses? Are those made to have equal forces pulling in both directions? Newtons law says yes. The head end knuckles bear the weight of the entire train. The D-11 would be peanuts in comparison...... |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:20:47 PM EDT
[#11]
I'll bring the tow rope!
 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:26:42 PM EDT
[#12]
A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much?
Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:33:08 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:34:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. ETA the dozer weighs about as much as one loaded grain car. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:39:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. Those tens of millions of pounds are on steel wheels rolling on steel rails. They offer far less resistance to motion than steel tracks with grousers in soil. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 6:52:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those tens of millions of pounds are on steel wheels rolling on steel rails. They offer far less resistance to motion than steel tracks with grousers in soil. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. Those tens of millions of pounds are on steel wheels rolling on steel rails. They offer far less resistance to motion than steel tracks with grousers in soil. Bingo! AND...a train that big will have MANY locomotives...not just one. Some in front, some in the middle, and some at the rear. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 7:20:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bingo! AND...a train that big will have MANY locomotives...not just one. Some in front, some in the middle, and some at the rear. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. Those tens of millions of pounds are on steel wheels rolling on steel rails. They offer far less resistance to motion than steel tracks with grousers in soil. Bingo! AND...a train that big will have MANY locomotives...not just one. Some in front, some in the middle, and some at the rear. Wut kinda train we talkin here though? The only trains I see that have middle helpers are either going over the pass or are sooper trains that get split at a certain point. The rest are "conventional" with distributive power. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 7:44:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ES44AH - 4400 horsepower - 6 A/C traction motors with around 170,000 pounds of tractive effort. I could drag 4,000 tons of them up a 1.3% grade. D11 wouldn't stand a chance. I could cut out 5 traction motors and still drag it all over. There's a big different between rolling stock and and a Dozer that weights 229,800 and has traction of its own |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 7:53:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Interesting how most people in the thread keep ignoring the one guy who has operated both.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 7:56:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can the loco have the rail sanders turned on? Won't do a thing if it isn't moving. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 7:56:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor GE ES44AH = 432,000 lbs. High adhesion traction motors. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:00:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting how most people in the thread keep ignoring the one guy who has operated both. Yeah well....we also had pilots who said a plane wouldn't take off from a treadmill too... I still got money on the dozer (but only $20...'cause I think it will be a coin-toss...) |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:09:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryI can tell you there is nothing fun about sliding sideways down hill on a dozer its the only time that I really been scared in a machine |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:13:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor GE ES44AH = 432,000 lbs. High adhesion traction motors. Tonnage for any type of locomotive is based on the ruling grade for the subdivision. On my old sub the tonnage for the ES44AH was 5300 tons, by itself that is reduced by 10% or around 4800 tons. You could move 9,600,000 lbs up the ruling grade (generally under 5 MPH) with one motor. On flat track that same motor could easily pull 10,000+ tons (20,000,000 lbs) No experience with a D11 but I have pulled a piece of MOW equipment out of the mud alongside the track with the tow chains that come on locomotives. Again my money is on the locomotive unless it's an EMD SD70AC which would slip every 5 seconds. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:15:10 PM EDT
[#25]
D 11
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:15:38 PM EDT
[#26]
How about the Komatsu D575A-3SD?
336,400lbs 1,150HP Komatsu on left, D11 on right: 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:16:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How thick a cable do you recommend using? After all, between a modern locomotive and a D11, we are looking at at least 500,000 to 600,000 of opposing tractive force imposed on a single point of failure. Idk what any of that means but it makes me want to stand right next to it when the pulling starts. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:21:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: drawbar pull on a D11 at max weight appears to be approximately 260,000 lbs https://ccmodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Cat-D11N-Dozer-specs.pdf Tractive effort on a Dash 9 appears to be 142,000 lbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Dash_9-44CW Yeah, even with sand and traction control on the locomotive, I'm not sure why some are ignoring these numbers. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:23:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting how most people in the thread keep ignoring the one guy who has operated both. Yeah, unique perspective. I'll take his word for it. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:31:50 PM EDT
[#30]
It still only tractive effort.... The Loco can weigh all it wants to. It can only pull as much as adhesion will allow. And even the new computer controlled ones only get around 180,000lbs of force. Come with something that has more adhesion and it will have more tractive force.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:33:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wut, no Cat porn??! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Cat_D11_View_2.jpg Dad made a career operating those things. The shit he did with one would make you sit on the edge of your seat watching. 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:33:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting how most people in the thread keep ignoring the one guy who has operated both. Lol....come on man, this is GD. Someone could actually film this and GD would still argue about the validity of it
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:37:13 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do they have a blade mounted camera or something? No way the operator can see shit from the seat. Hell, the forward window is the smallest window in the cab you learn to see with your ass |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:39:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do they have a blade mounted camera or something? No way the operator can see shit from the seat. Hell, the forward window is the smallest window in the cab Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wut, no Cat porn??! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Cat_D11_View_2.jpg Dad made a career operating those things. The shit he did with one would make you sit on the edge of your seat watching. When you’re running a D11 class machine, you’re a skilled operator first off. As it’s a million dollar machine. Secondly what’s in front of you is getting pushed. Third, as for reclamation... it’s a dangerous job. Which is why now yes they’re doing blade mounted cameras. Also 3D gps location in cab. Or even remote controlled. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:43:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Locomotive with a running start And some slack drags the dozer all over.
Tight winch line and a dead stop? The dozer wins |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:46:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tearing a car apart is pretty impressive, best I've seen is an engineer get 3 knuckles at once. I have to admit that it was an old tank car that started its life during WWII and probably saw a lot of abuse being started with bunched slack behind steam power. Nothing like modern tankers where the tank is the actually frame. But the most impressive I witnessed was one engineer ripping the drawbar and pocket out of a cushioned underframe boxcar going up the 3% grade on Cajon Pass. It really wasn't the engineer's fault, the strain was on the grade and one of the units dropped out and instantly came back on line and the resulting jerk is what got the drawbar pocket. Santa Fe got rid of the old assed SD-26s involved in that incident right after that happened. Recently rebuilt with "upgrades" that ended up being the cause of the problem. And I got to see one try to do a repeat performance when they were sold to Guilford who used them on places like Belden Hill and Richmondville Hill on the D&H, with similar problems. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 8:53:36 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Powered by Diesel engines from a locomotive. Two ALCO 251-16C prime movers to be exact. It must sound glorious running in Notch 8 as it blazes along at 2mph. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 9:09:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New contestant: Crawler Transporter 6 million pounds, 5,364hp powering 16 traction motors running 8 treads https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Crawler-Transporter.jpg/2560px-Crawler-Transporter.jpg Max speed 2mph If I recall it’s fuel economy is Measured in gallons per FOOT. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 9:15:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. Truth. Love the sound of a long train starting to move Thud.thud.thud.thud.thud.thud... |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 9:34:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do they have a blade mounted camera or something? No way the operator can see shit from the seat. Hell, the forward window is the smallest window in the cab You use the bubble in your ass for pushing and grading, and the CASE Ultra gives you an idea how good you are staying on grade (a little screen in front of you by the gauges that shows you the grade on a color scale). You sit slightly pointed to the right in a D-10 and D-11 (feet pointed right in the cab, slightly facing right) so you have slightly better visibility out of the left front window. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 9:37:23 PM EDT
[#41]
  Here's a view from the cab, and the CASE Ultra is under the guages in this T model. Hard to see the colors because I'm off file, and have a delay in the system. Pink on black is off the file, blue is low on grade, red is high, and green means you're on grade. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:30:01 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105862/FB_IMG_1533409615867-1445863.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/105862/FB_IMG_1533409622186-1445861.jpg Here's a view from the cab, and the CASE Ultra is under the guages in this T model. Hard to see the colors because I'm off file, and have a delay in the system. Pink on black is off the file, blue is low on grade, red is high, and green means you're on grade. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:35:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Awesome. Can you tell how deep or down angle the blade is or do you just push until it bogs down then lift it up a bit? It's easy to bog down any track dozer, even a D-11. You roll the dozer (blade) forward to fill the dozer, then roll it back to "carry" the material. The trick is to fill the blade without bogging or stalling the dozer. Our carry blades carry 50ish yards. When we are pushing cast, I would guesstimate you are cutting a foot and a half of material until the blade is full. We tend to push at about a 30 percent slope into our 300 foot deep pit left behind after recovering both seams of coal when we are pushing in the cast. That's the most efficient way to push with any dozer is down hill into a hole. Regrade and reclamation is usually following a Post Mining Terrain contour file, and is pretty inefficient as far as utilization of a dozer, but it has to be done. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:36:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if the D11 had train wheels and the train had tracks - Who wins?  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/4/2020 7:27:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol wrong. How about when a train stops going up hill? Where’s all the slack? That’s right, stretched out. They can start back up. I’ve been on a 19,000 ton coal train that was 7,700ft long and start on a 1.25% grade. To answer the question a locomotive will win. There’s this thing called traction control on new locos along with sand. Traction is a non issue 90% of the time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. Lol wrong. How about when a train stops going up hill? Where’s all the slack? That’s right, stretched out. They can start back up. I’ve been on a 19,000 ton coal train that was 7,700ft long and start on a 1.25% grade. To answer the question a locomotive will win. There’s this thing called traction control on new locos along with sand. Traction is a non issue 90% of the time. Even an old SD90 could only pull 200,000 lb, which is about the same as their newest SD70ACe-T4. Traction control doesn't increase traction, it just makes the best use of what it has. https://www.progressrail.com/en/rollingstock/locomotives/freight/sdacet4.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD90MAC according the graph on page 19-23, a D10T2 can exceed 200k lb. https://www.hawthornecat.com/sites/default/files/content/download/pdfs/Track_Type_Tractors_CPH_v1.1_03.13.14.pdf |
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Posted: 6/4/2020 8:20:10 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. ETA the dozer weighs about as much as one loaded grain car. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor A train weighs in the 10's of millions of pounds though and the loco gets it moving. ETA the dozer weighs about as much as one loaded grain car. All of those pounds are not on the drive wheels. The don't help traction. |
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Posted: 6/4/2020 8:30:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GE ES44AH = 432,000 lbs. High adhesion traction motors. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A modern Loco has ~170,000-Lbs of tractive force for starting. Does a D-11 even weigh that much? Ok looked it up D-11 weighs ~230,000-lbs. Money on tractor GE ES44AH = 432,000 lbs. High adhesion traction motors. Wiki says 33,000 per combo, which is 198k. Given that the coefficient of friction would have to be about 1.0 for your number, I don't believe you are correct. |
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Posted: 6/4/2020 8:32:12 PM EDT
[#48]
From a dead stop, I’d say D11
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Posted: 6/4/2020 8:34:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting how most people in the thread keep ignoring the one guy who has operated both. Probably because the published specs from the manufactures say something else. PR/EMD knows how much torque can be generated by an A3432 and Wabtec/GE knows what a GEB13 will do. The bearings and gears need to be sized to handle the loads. The solutions are very similar. (probably from being based on the same Siemens design) 
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Posted: 6/4/2020 8:34:24 PM EDT
[#50]
From a dead stop, I’d say D11
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