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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:25:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who told you that?  This very website. Go back and look at the caliber dates over the years. "All that matters is penetration" is a pretty common answer, and how bullet diameter, energy, velocity, etc doesn't matter in handguns. Basically they all boiled down to if the bullet penetrates to the required 12"+ then that is all that matters, well .22 Magnum does that now. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:25:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Check out the Speer Gold Dot 22 Mag load. It may surprise you.
I have also had plenty of duds in .22lr, but never a misfire in .22 Mag. I have a S&W 351C that I have carried a lot more than I probably should. It has a few attributes I appreciate. For one, my revolver shoots to point of aim with the Speer load. For another, it is as light as it gets- maybe 12oz loaded? It is better than a sharp stick. If there weren't premium .22 mag loads designed for short barrels available, I would have passed on the .22mag in a pistol. As rifles go I have been surprised at how much "more" a .22mag is over a .22lr for performance on game and varmints. It really is a whole different kettle of fish. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:26:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not only does rimfire have ignition reliably problems, but it also has a (go figure) prominent rim that makes designing a “fighting-reliable” magazine a massive PITA. So if they made a .22 Magnum that always worked and was like centerfire, it would be the ideal handgun caliber? |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:27:39 PM EDT
[#4]
I've had some calibre to eject by weak Winchester ammo but my carry CCI 35gr ammo runs 100% in my PMR30. I carry it sometimes and am not worried about failures.
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:33:16 PM EDT
[#5]
22 Magnum is a shit choice for self defense compared to 9mm. First, there is reliability. Reliable feeding from a magazine has always plagued small rim fire cartridges. Then there is the priming of rim fire cartridges. This can be mitigated with high quality cartridges, but you can still expect occasional duds. Not often, but at a level I wouldn’t trust for self defense.
Next is ballistics. The assumption is that a 30g projectile going 2,200 fps produces 330 ft lbs of energy so It’s almost as good as 9mm! Those ballistics are from a 20” RIFLE barrel. Out of a 6” PISTOL barrel, that energy drops in half because it can only achieve a velocity of 1,600 fps. That number gets even worse out of a 4.5” barrel. 22 also creates a much smaller wound cavity at those lower speeds. A lot of ballistics testing shows that after penetrating clothing, hollow points don’t even expand. It doesn’t mean they can’t kill, but it does mean they are far less effective than a 9mm handgun load (especially a self defense load). Less powerful than .380, but slightly better than a .32 out of a pistol. So there you have it. That is why 22 magnum has never been anything but a novelty chambering in semi-autos, or is mostly seen in revolvers as a higher power alternative to 22LR. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:42:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:44:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some folks believe so and buy a PMR-30. My brother-in-law, for one. His argument is that it will be a nightstand gun, and that my sis handles it very well. He's hanging his hat on lots of minuscule-diameter hits vs. a lot of 9MM misses. I told him they should both train harder. Or even train at all. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:45:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: I've always been told all that matters in handguns is capacity, recoil, and the ability to penetrate 12-18". Velocity, energy, bullet diameter, none of that matters. .... Stop talking to 'tards and this would not be a problem. With that said, I'm currently carrying a 9mm and the gun in my bug out bag is a PMR30. However, that does not change the fact that a bigger bullet will inflict more damage, all else being equal. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:51:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My brother-in-law, for one. His argument is that it will be a nightstand gun, and that my sis handles it very well. He's hanging his hat on lots of minuscule-diameter hits vs. a lot of 9MM misses. I told him they should both train harder. Or even train at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Some folks believe so and buy a PMR-30. My brother-in-law, for one. His argument is that it will be a nightstand gun, and that my sis handles it very well. He's hanging his hat on lots of minuscule-diameter hits vs. a lot of 9MM misses. I told him they should both train harder. Or even train at all. I wouldn't trust my life to a Kel-tec anything. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:53:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if they made a .22 Magnum that always worked and was like centerfire, it would be the ideal handgun caliber? If the performance could be maintained in short battles, maybe. The .25-25 (forgive the US/metric hybrid) concept rattling around in my brain might be a better idea. Straight walled, centerfire, rimless .25 case, 25mm long. 7mm Penna was an interesting idea too, but it appears to have vanished. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:54:33 PM EDT
[#11]
How reliable is your rimfire semi auto pistol?
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:59:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Centerfire only.
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:00:51 PM EDT
[#13]
You are forgetting a vital piece of information that leads to the conclusion that the major handgun calibers are all "good enough". And that is the use of modern bullet designs, which you aren't going to find in .22WMR.
Something like a Ranger-T or HST in 9/40/45 is all good - the differences are negligible. Different conclusions tend to be drawn if you are comparing only ball/FMJ, or even some of the very outdated JHP designs. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:04:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. This, IDGAF what anyone says. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:09:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not really likely you will ever need 30 rounds anyway. Have you watched the news lately? |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:21:11 PM EDT
[#16]
One benefit I can see is it’s easier to be more accurate with a 22WMR rifle than a typical 9mm handgun. I have a CZ512 with a 10 inch barrel that can do dime sized groups at 25 yds. I can’t do that with my Glock. I think my kids or wife would be way more effective using the CZ512 Even with its 10 round magazine than trying to use a 9mm handgun. If it’s all I had in clearing a house I would be ok with it. It has no recoil and very little blast. It would be much better than using my 38 snub nose revolver.
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:28:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal bulk pack in the 2008-2016 range were some of the worst. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I shoot about 2k of rimfire a year and have about a dozen duds out of that. (Federal, Winchester and CCI/Blazer). Federal bulk pack in the 2008-2016 range were some of the worst. Worse than Remington Golden Garbage? I have way too much of that stuff. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:30:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are forgetting a vital piece of information that leads to the conclusion that the major handgun calibers are all "good enough". And that is the use of modern bullet designs, which you aren't going to find in .22WMR. Something like a Ranger-T or HST in 9/40/45 is all good - the differences are negligible. Different conclusions tend to be drawn if you are comparing only ball/FMJ, or even some of the very outdated JHP designs. I mean Hornady makes a .22 Critical Defense, which is the same bullet design as the round the FBI just adopted in 9mm. So .22 has the same modern bullet design. Speer also makes a Gold Dot .22  So if bullet penetration depth is all that really matters, seems like a properly penetrating .22 would be the same as a properly penetrating 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:33:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:37:42 PM EDT
[#20]
my PMR30 was a total POS. Sent back to factory, it was returned to me still a POS. Not heavy enough to bludgeon someone with, so I sold it cheaply
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:58:50 PM EDT
[#21]
While any .22 rimfire can kill an attacker, it probably won't stop one.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:17:37 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who told you that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've always been told all that matters in handguns is capacity, recoil, and the ability to penetrate 12-18". Velocity, energy, bullet diameter, none of that matters. Who told you that? The voices. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:18:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The voices. Nah, just peruse the countless discussions from the past on this very sight. Everything I've seen said on this site is that only penetration depth matters, nothing else. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:20:43 AM EDT
[#24]
I like .22 mag, it flips jack rabbits end over end. Fun little cartridge.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:21:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought my wife a PMR30 With CCI ammo it fails to eject reliably. Ejector rips the case apart but the casing is still stuck in chamber. I need to send it back to KelTec. Is the chamber fluted on those? |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:33:21 AM EDT
[#26]
Because you lose most of the .22 WMR velocity advantage over normal .22 LR in barrels less than 5" to 6" in length?
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:14:04 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah, just peruse the countless discussions from the past on this very sight. Everything I've seen said on this site is that only penetration depth matters, nothing else. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The voices. Nah, just peruse the countless discussions from the past on this very sight. Everything I've seen said on this site is that only penetration depth matters, nothing else. Repeating it doesn't make it sound smarter. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:30:46 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: I've always been told all that matters in handguns is capacity, recoil, and the ability to penetrate 12-18". Velocity, energy, bullet diameter, none of that matters. So why isn't a 30 round .22 handgun a better choice for self defense? There are now .22 Magnum loads that can punch 14-15" into gel. The crush cavity matters, and bigger bullet = greater crush cavity. There is a reason we use JHPs. The "bullet diameter doesn't matter" claim is false. Certainly, Dr Martin Fakler wasn't saying that. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:38:03 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah, just peruse the countless discussions from the past on this very sight. Everything I've seen said on this site is that only penetration depth matters, nothing else. That is a corruption of the original arguments made by Fackler et al. The people making it lack the technical knowledge of men like Fackler. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:42:22 AM EDT
[#30]
The original argument was for a bullet with a 12" min penetration (10" was considered at one point, and a better recommendation perhaps was for an AVERAGE of 15"). But for bullets meeting the penetration requirement you want one with a larger crush cavity. But the penetration requirement was never a hard standard, a bullet that penetrates 11" and expands to 1" diameter would be better than one that makes 12" but only expands to 0.50", at least most of the time.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:45:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. This. Wtf OP, have you never heard this? |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:47:19 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep hearing about the non-reliability of rimfire cartridges but honestly I find it interesting as I’ve never had a rimfire not go off. Granted I shoot a shit ton more centerfire and I’ve probably only shot 2000-3000 rounds of rimfire in my life either for squirrel hunting or just fucking around at the range but I’ve never had one not discharge (even with supposedly shitty Remington ammo) yet I keep seeing how people claim them to be unreliable. Anyway that’s just my observation and I just find it curious. Yeah......shoot more, you’ll see..... 
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Posted: 6/29/2020 3:27:53 AM EDT
[#33]
Apparently it is quite difficult to get a long object into a small tight hole. Very few success stories with semiautomatic 22mag weapons. Now getting a small fat object into a big fat hole is damn easy. Other than a consistent ignition. we can do whatever we want with the type of projo. We haven't played with the 22mag like we did with 22lr, maybe we could jam it 3000fps? But there's still that tight hole.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 3:58:07 AM EDT
[#34]
1. Those guns are keltecs and they have a poor history of reliability.
2. It’s a primer cartridge and may fail to go bang. 3. Get a 5.7 |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 3:59:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would wager of the 9 malfunctioning PMR's you've seen, a vast majority of the failures are due to firing rounds below the 40 grain weight listed in the owners manual and improper magazine loading. Geez, I sound like a keltec fan boi. I have a CMR and it won’t go bang all the way through a mag. I have a mag loader. I use approved loads. The magazines just aren’t there. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 4:44:00 AM EDT
[#36]
5.7x28mm
 ETA: SS196 |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 4:53:29 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't trust my life to a Kel-tec anything. The 32 acp they put out is a solid pistol. Shockingly, it has a lower failure rate than their 380. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 5:03:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I've always been told all that matters in handguns is capacity, recoil, and the ability to penetrate 12-18". Velocity, energy, bullet diameter, none of that matters. So why isn't a 30 round .22 handgun a better choice for self defense? There are now .22 Magnum loads that can punch 14-15" into gel. .22TCM legitimately is better than 9mm from the gel tests I've seen. It has a flatter trajectory, does better in gel, has less recoil, same/more ammo in the mag. Only issue is aftermarket support. Logistics are God. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 5:35:42 AM EDT
[#39]
A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 8:33:17 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: I've always been told all that matters in handguns is capacity, recoil, and the ability to penetrate 12-18". Velocity, energy, bullet diameter, none of that matters. So why isn't a 30 round .22 handgun a better choice for self defense? There are now .22 Magnum loads that can punch 14-15" into gel. Nobody said that... What was said that there isn't much difference in performance between 9mm, .40, and .45ACP with modern hollow points. Besides rim-fire suck for reliability. I can't count how many dud rimfire I've tried to shoot. 
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Posted: 6/29/2020 9:51:27 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuote History |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 9:54:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nobody said that... What was said that there isn't much difference in performance between 9mm, .40, and .45ACP with modern hollow points. Besides rim-fire suck for reliability. I can't count how many dud rimfire I've tried to shoot. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/40787/JHP_Performance_JPG-1481747.jpg Yes, lots of people have said just that. I spent the day browsing past history of the argument on here. Your picture was also thrown around a lot, but it was often followed by how only penetration matters. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 9:54:57 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. Quoted: rimlock Those. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:00:14 AM EDT
[#44]
Remington 22 from around the obumer was elected, I had about 2 in 10 failure rate. Pulled some bullets and found no priming compound, or only one side primed.
Between the 12600 rounds and 22 and junk of 556 and 9mm I stopped giving Remington money. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:02:18 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:09:04 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would wager of the 9 malfunctioning PMR's you've seen, a vast majority of the failures are due to firing rounds below the 40 grain weight listed in the owners manual and improper magazine loading. Geez, I sound like a keltec fan boi. As evidenced by the posts after yours in this thread, you got the one my friend! They’re part of the 9 haha. It sucks to be in the 9. To their credit KT has been okay about trying to fix it for the people I’ve seen send them in. Not particularly quickly, and I choose the phrase “trying to fix it” for a reason. Which is too bad really because some of the classes I was volunteering at had the very specific person that would probably have no real ability to consistently use much else. The weight and light recoil spring makes it a good option for aged or injured hands that struggled to even fire a double action, let alone with any accuracy or follow through. I was able to get one with a Vortex Viper on the slide for like $200 through an industry thing and even then it was such a pain in the ass I gave it to a friend who now has a bunch of time invested in modifying it to work with not much better results. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:14:05 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah, just peruse the countless discussions from the past on this very sight. Everything I've seen said on this site is that only penetration depth matters, nothing else. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The voices. Nah, just peruse the countless discussions from the past on this very sight. Everything I've seen said on this site is that only penetration depth matters, nothing else. Maybe you could quote someone saying this exact phrase? |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:14:26 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep hearing about the non-reliability of rimfire cartridges but honestly I find it interesting as I've never had a rimfire not go off. Granted I shoot a shit ton more centerfire and I've probably only shot 2000-3000 rounds of rimfire in my life either for squirrel hunting or just fucking around at the range but I've never had one not discharge (even with supposedly shitty Remington ammo) yet I keep seeing how people claim them to be unreliable. Anyway that's just my observation and I just find it curious. Do you know how I know you don't shoot enough rimfire? Shoot some Remington Golden .22 and get back with me. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:17:11 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if they made a .22 Magnum that always worked and was like centerfire, it would be the ideal handgun caliber? No, it would still suck compared to something that can fire a higher mass projectile with better expansion at similar velocity. Assuming by ideal you mean ideal for defensive purposes. As mentioned, the 22TCM is pretty much what you describe. And it’s a great round for some applications, especially in a tungsten core or saboted round. But those aren’t your typical daily carry applications, and a lot of the 22TCM velocities that are mentioned are from a 16-20” barrel and not what you’d see out of a pistol. Even an 8-10” barrel was getting good velocity, but at 4-5” like you’d get in full size or compact gun it loses a lot. Forget getting any real velocity from something with a 3” barrel. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:22:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had some calibre to eject by weak Winchester ammo but my carry CCI 35gr ammo runs 100% in my PMR30. I carry it sometimes and am not worried about failures. Whoa I stand corrected, there’s two of you! As long as that 100% has been for a high enough round count to determine reliability, that’s great. It’s still not the best choice over a 9mm but as long as you know the limitations and all, I won’t try to change your mind. I’ve said it before but really, pistols are pretty bad at getting quick effective results in defense against humans. Some are less bad than others, but none are great. They’re just what we’re likely to have on us, so being able to apply them in the way that increases our chances of getting the desired outcome is what matters the most. |
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