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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 10:18:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: bluemax_1]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: You say that's been debunked, but get this 90% of the article is about the study they pulled the data from BUT they only wrote a single paragraph about how AmmoLand did some study, with no way to know if they pulled favorable results over the unfavorable ones yet in the study they made it clear where they're pull the data from and in what date range. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: You say that's been debunked, but get this 90% of the article is about the study they pulled the data from BUT they only wrote a single paragraph about how AmmoLand did some study, with no way to know if they pulled favorable results over the unfavorable ones yet in the study they made it clear where they're pull the data from and in what date range. The article LITERALLY has the link, for those who AREN’T merely interested in confirmation bias of their own positions. Effectiveness of handguns for bear defense Again, the first link I posted clearly explains where the BS studies and BS claims come from, and WHY they’re BS. The authors of the BS studies selected only cases where bear spray was used, for the bear spray study, but selected any incidents involving injury where a firearm was present. In the spray studies, they include any use of spray on curious bears, as ‘effective’. All the cases in the ‘firearms’ study were actual attacks, and they counted firearms being present but not used as a failure, where the spray study deliberately omitted even examining/counting any cases where spray was present, but not used. Importantly, when you examine the cases of actual attacks, bear spray was only 3x% effective WHEN THE BEAR WAS SPRAYED, vs 9x% effective when the attacking bear was shot. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 1:30:36 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: The article LITERALLY has the link, for those who AREN’T merely interested in confirmation bias of their own positions. Effectiveness of handguns for bear defense Again, the first link I posted clearly explains where the BS studies and BS claims come from, and WHY they’re BS. The authors of the BS studies selected only cases where bear spray was used, for the bear spray study, but selected any incidents involving injury where a firearm was present. In the spray studies, they include any use of spray on curious bears, as ‘effective’. All the cases in the ‘firearms’ study were actual attacks, and they counted firearms being present but not used as a failure, where the spray study deliberately omitted even examining/counting any cases where spray was present, but not used. Importantly, when you examine the cases of actual attacks, bear spray was only 3x% effective WHEN THE BEAR WAS SPRAYED, vs 9x% effective when the attacking bear was shot. Again they PICKED and CHOSE what ones they wanted to show in good light. The article about the bear spray effectiveness has an important thing in it that I think you're missing: the % of people who walked away INJURY FREE is HIGHER than those who used a firearm. That's the important thing here: walking away INJURY FREE and the bear not anywhere near you. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 2:07:53 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Again they PICKED and CHOSE what ones they wanted to show in good light. The article about the bear spray effectiveness has an important thing in it that I think you're missing: the % of people who walked away INJURY FREE is HIGHER than those who used a firearm. That's the important thing here: walking away INJURY FREE and the bear not anywhere near you. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Originally Posted By bluemax_1: The article LITERALLY has the link, for those who AREN’T merely interested in confirmation bias of their own positions. Effectiveness of handguns for bear defense Again, the first link I posted clearly explains where the BS studies and BS claims come from, and WHY they’re BS. The authors of the BS studies selected only cases where bear spray was used, for the bear spray study, but selected any incidents involving injury where a firearm was present. In the spray studies, they include any use of spray on curious bears, as ‘effective’. All the cases in the ‘firearms’ study were actual attacks, and they counted firearms being present but not used as a failure, where the spray study deliberately omitted even examining/counting any cases where spray was present, but not used. Importantly, when you examine the cases of actual attacks, bear spray was only 3x% effective WHEN THE BEAR WAS SPRAYED, vs 9x% effective when the attacking bear was shot. Again they PICKED and CHOSE what ones they wanted to show in good light. The article about the bear spray effectiveness has an important thing in it that I think you're missing: the % of people who walked away INJURY FREE is HIGHER than those who used a firearm. That's the important thing here: walking away INJURY FREE and the bear not anywhere near you. That’s like saying cities are the best bear defense, because people in cities suffer far lower injuries from bears. If you want to talk about defense against a BEAR ATTACK, then examine the effectiveness of the options used against bears WHEN THEY’VE ATTACKED PEOPLE. The data is perfectly clear for anyone who isn’t blinded by their bias. Both the linked articles make it perfectly clear. They include incidents where people HAD firearms, but either didn’t have the opportunity to use them, or for some reason, chose not to, and count those as a failure of the firearm. If someone didn’t have time to draw and use a firearm in a bear attack, they wouldn’t have had time to use bear spray either, but the biased people responsible for the BS studies deliberately eliminated those cases where spray was present in a bear ATTACK, but not used, as examples of failure of the bear spray, where they counted them as failures of firearms. You can also see a HUGE disparity in the effectiveness of bear spray to chase off CURIOUS bears sniffing around and getting too close for comfort vs bears ACTIVELY ATTACKING. I’d venture to say that especially with black bears, far more people have chased away non-attacking black bears by waving their arms and shouting or making noise, than by using bear spray. It’s worked for lots of people who don’t even carry spray. By that measure, please go naked in the woods and stick to waving your arms and making noise. |
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Posted: 7/5/2024 3:37:09 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: That’s like saying cities are the best bear defense, because people in cities suffer far lower injuries from bears. If you want to talk about defense against a BEAR ATTACK, then examine the effectiveness of the options used against bears WHEN THEY’VE ATTACKED PEOPLE. The data is perfectly clear for anyone who isn’t blinded by their bias. Both the linked articles make it perfectly clear. They include incidents where people HAD firearms, but either didn’t have the opportunity to use them, or for some reason, chose not to, and count those as a failure of the firearm. If someone didn’t have time to draw and use a firearm in a bear attack, they wouldn’t have had time to use bear spray either, but the biased people responsible for the BS studies deliberately eliminated those cases where spray was present in a bear ATTACK, but not used, as examples of failure of the bear spray, where they counted them as failures of firearms. You can also see a HUGE disparity in the effectiveness of bear spray to chase off CURIOUS bears sniffing around and getting too close for comfort vs bears ACTIVELY ATTACKING. I’d venture to say that especially with black bears, far more people have chased away non-attacking black bears by waving their arms and shouting or making noise, than by using bear spray. It’s worked for lots of people who don’t even carry spray. By that measure, please go naked in the woods and stick to waving your arms and making noise. Your well reasoned argument is falling on deaf ears. He has come to his conclusion by reading a magazine article and the advice of family that seems to think black bears in Michigan are a significant threat. His critical thinking skills are apparently lacking judging by the fact that he thought he couldn't have a gun at his family outing because he flew there. The vast majority of the respondents in this thread seem to have actual experience in bear country where the bear threat is far more significant than the rare black bear threat in Michigan. I will continue to carry a pistol as my primary bear defense as I was taught by many a Sourdough in Alaska that have survived bear attacks and as the Alaska Fish and Game folks I worked with recommended while I lived there. Bear spray will continue to be a tool in my bear defense arsenal but definitely not in lieu of a firearm. I wonder if the OP would be willing to bow hunt Kodiak with his guide only carrying bear spray to back him up? I mean by his own research it's more effective than anything else. As for me when I finally spend the $$ to bow hunt Kodiak I will have a G20 for my defensive weapon and my back up will have either a 12ga. with slugs or a large caliber rifle to back me up. I'll 100% concede that shotgun with slugs or large caliber rifle trumps a handgun in a bear defense situation as long as that shotgun or rifle is in your hands. Since I am generally doing something in the woods that requires the use of both hands and I don't want to have to set my bear defense down I use a pistol instead of a long gun. Bear spray is a great option that allows you to do the same but the pistol works in windy wet situations where bear spray loses its effectiveness. Never forget this tidbit of advice...  |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 5:52:25 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By metalmelter: Your well reasoned argument is falling on deaf ears. He has come to his conclusion by reading a magazine article and the advice of family that seems to think black bears in Michigan are a significant threat. His critical thinking skills are apparently lacking judging by the fact that he thought he couldn't have a gun at his family outing because he flew there. The vast majority of the respondents in this thread seem to have actual experience in bear country where the bear threat is far more significant than the rare black bear threat in Michigan. I will continue to carry a pistol as my primary bear defense as I was taught by many a Sourdough in Alaska that have survived bear attacks and as the Alaska Fish and Game folks I worked with recommended while I lived there. Bear spray will continue to be a tool in my bear defense arsenal but definitely not in lieu of a firearm. I wonder if the OP would be willing to bow hunt Kodiak with his guide only carrying bear spray to back him up? I mean by his own research it's more effective than anything else. As for me when I finally spend the $$ to bow hunt Kodiak I will have a G20 for my defensive weapon and my back up will have either a 12ga. with slugs or a large caliber rifle to back me up. I'll 100% concede that shotgun with slugs or large caliber rifle trumps a handgun in a bear defense situation as long as that shotgun or rifle is in your hands. Since I am generally doing something in the woods that requires the use of both hands and I don't want to have to set my bear defense down I use a pistol instead of a long gun. Bear spray is a great option that allows you to do the same but the pistol works in windy wet situations where bear spray loses its effectiveness. Never forget this tidbit of advice... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472009/Bear_Turd-3259074.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By metalmelter: Originally Posted By bluemax_1: That’s like saying cities are the best bear defense, because people in cities suffer far lower injuries from bears. If you want to talk about defense against a BEAR ATTACK, then examine the effectiveness of the options used against bears WHEN THEY’VE ATTACKED PEOPLE. The data is perfectly clear for anyone who isn’t blinded by their bias. Both the linked articles make it perfectly clear. They include incidents where people HAD firearms, but either didn’t have the opportunity to use them, or for some reason, chose not to, and count those as a failure of the firearm. If someone didn’t have time to draw and use a firearm in a bear attack, they wouldn’t have had time to use bear spray either, but the biased people responsible for the BS studies deliberately eliminated those cases where spray was present in a bear ATTACK, but not used, as examples of failure of the bear spray, where they counted them as failures of firearms. You can also see a HUGE disparity in the effectiveness of bear spray to chase off CURIOUS bears sniffing around and getting too close for comfort vs bears ACTIVELY ATTACKING. I’d venture to say that especially with black bears, far more people have chased away non-attacking black bears by waving their arms and shouting or making noise, than by using bear spray. It’s worked for lots of people who don’t even carry spray. By that measure, please go naked in the woods and stick to waving your arms and making noise. Your well reasoned argument is falling on deaf ears. He has come to his conclusion by reading a magazine article and the advice of family that seems to think black bears in Michigan are a significant threat. His critical thinking skills are apparently lacking judging by the fact that he thought he couldn't have a gun at his family outing because he flew there. The vast majority of the respondents in this thread seem to have actual experience in bear country where the bear threat is far more significant than the rare black bear threat in Michigan. I will continue to carry a pistol as my primary bear defense as I was taught by many a Sourdough in Alaska that have survived bear attacks and as the Alaska Fish and Game folks I worked with recommended while I lived there. Bear spray will continue to be a tool in my bear defense arsenal but definitely not in lieu of a firearm. I wonder if the OP would be willing to bow hunt Kodiak with his guide only carrying bear spray to back him up? I mean by his own research it's more effective than anything else. As for me when I finally spend the $$ to bow hunt Kodiak I will have a G20 for my defensive weapon and my back up will have either a 12ga. with slugs or a large caliber rifle to back me up. I'll 100% concede that shotgun with slugs or large caliber rifle trumps a handgun in a bear defense situation as long as that shotgun or rifle is in your hands. Since I am generally doing something in the woods that requires the use of both hands and I don't want to have to set my bear defense down I use a pistol instead of a long gun. Bear spray is a great option that allows you to do the same but the pistol works in windy wet situations where bear spray loses its effectiveness. Never forget this tidbit of advice... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472009/Bear_Turd-3259074.jpg Yeah. Especially when it comes to an attacking brown bear, there are numerous accounts of people who were still killed and eaten despite spraying the bear. Mark Uptain was one of the recent ones. They found an empty can of bear spray, and when they found the bear that killed him, it was covered in bear spray residue. There was another GD thread last year, or maybe the year before, where a guy had a pistol but chose to use the bear spray instead. Sprayed the bear first, and got mauled. The bear eventually left, but not before mauling him. Then it returned a short while later and mailed him yet again. The guy survived and managed to hike to aid, but if anyone’s ever seen even a video of how fast a charging brown bear moves, it’s through the cloud of spray in about 0.25s and mauling the crap out of you in the 15-30 seconds before it might even begin to notice the effects of the spray. |
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Posted: 7/5/2024 6:40:16 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: Yeah. Especially when it comes to an attacking brown bear, there are numerous accounts of people who were still killed and eaten despite spraying the bear. Mark Uptain was one of the recent ones. They found an empty can of bear spray, and when they found the bear that killed him, it was covered in bear spray residue. There was another GD thread last year, or maybe the year before, where a guy had a pistol but chose to use the bear spray instead. Sprayed the bear first, and got mauled. The bear eventually left, but not before mauling him. Then it returned a short while later and mailed him yet again. The guy survived and managed to hike to aid, but if anyone’s ever seen even a video of how fast a charging brown bear moves, it’s through the cloud of spray in about 0.25s and mauling the crap out of you in the 15-30 seconds before it might even begin to notice the effects of the spray. Does your screen name have anything to do with the 229th? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 8:27:27 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By metalmelter: Does your screen name have anything to do with the 229th? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By metalmelter: Originally Posted By bluemax_1: Yeah. Especially when it comes to an attacking brown bear, there are numerous accounts of people who were still killed and eaten despite spraying the bear. Mark Uptain was one of the recent ones. They found an empty can of bear spray, and when they found the bear that killed him, it was covered in bear spray residue. There was another GD thread last year, or maybe the year before, where a guy had a pistol but chose to use the bear spray instead. Sprayed the bear first, and got mauled. The bear eventually left, but not before mauling him. Then it returned a short while later and mailed him yet again. The guy survived and managed to hike to aid, but if anyone’s ever seen even a video of how fast a charging brown bear moves, it’s through the cloud of spray in about 0.25s and mauling the crap out of you in the 15-30 seconds before it might even begin to notice the effects of the spray. Does your screen name have anything to do with the 229th? No |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 9:28:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By metalmelter: Your well reasoned argument is falling on deaf ears. He has come to his conclusion by reading a magazine article and the advice of family that seems to think black bears in Michigan are a significant threat. His critical thinking skills are apparently lacking judging by the fact that he thought he couldn't have a gun at his family outing because he flew there. The vast majority of the respondents in this thread seem to have actual experience in bear country where the bear threat is far more significant than the rare black bear threat in Michigan. I will continue to carry a pistol as my primary bear defense as I was taught by many a Sourdough in Alaska that have survived bear attacks and as the Alaska Fish and Game folks I worked with recommended while I lived there. Bear spray will continue to be a tool in my bear defense arsenal but definitely not in lieu of a firearm. I wonder if the OP would be willing to bow hunt Kodiak with his guide only carrying bear spray to back him up? I mean by his own research it's more effective than anything else. As for me when I finally spend the $$ to bow hunt Kodiak I will have a G20 for my defensive weapon and my back up will have either a 12ga. with slugs or a large caliber rifle to back me up. I'll 100% concede that shotgun with slugs or large caliber rifle trumps a handgun in a bear defense situation as long as that shotgun or rifle is in your hands. Since I am generally doing something in the woods that requires the use of both hands and I don't want to have to set my bear defense down I use a pistol instead of a long gun. Bear spray is a great option that allows you to do the same but the pistol works in windy wet situations where bear spray loses its effectiveness. Never forget this tidbit of advice... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472009/Bear_Turd-3259074.jpg I never said a firearm isn't bad for bear defense. Show me where I said that? I said a PISTOL, a PISTOL, a PISTOL is bad for bear defense and instead you should use bear spray if you can't carry a shotgun with slugs in it or a rifle of at least a .308. Let me say it again, I said a PISTOL. Keyword PISTOL. Is not idea defense against a bear. There are plenty of data to support this that a pistol is not ideal in a bear attack situation. The one article I mentioned is not the ONLY article I read supporting this that bear spray is better than a pistol. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2024 11:25:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: bluemax_1]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: I never said a firearm isn't bad for bear defense. Show me where I said that? I said a PISTOL, a PISTOL, a PISTOL is bad for bear defense and instead you should use bear spray if you can't carry a shotgun with slugs in it or a rifle of at least a .308. Let me say it again, I said a PISTOL. Keyword PISTOL. Is not idea defense against a bear. There are plenty of data to support this that a pistol is not ideal in a bear attack situation. The one article I mentioned is not the ONLY article I read supporting this that bear spray is better than a pistol. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Originally Posted By metalmelter: Your well reasoned argument is falling on deaf ears. He has come to his conclusion by reading a magazine article and the advice of family that seems to think black bears in Michigan are a significant threat. His critical thinking skills are apparently lacking judging by the fact that he thought he couldn't have a gun at his family outing because he flew there. The vast majority of the respondents in this thread seem to have actual experience in bear country where the bear threat is far more significant than the rare black bear threat in Michigan. I will continue to carry a pistol as my primary bear defense as I was taught by many a Sourdough in Alaska that have survived bear attacks and as the Alaska Fish and Game folks I worked with recommended while I lived there. Bear spray will continue to be a tool in my bear defense arsenal but definitely not in lieu of a firearm. I wonder if the OP would be willing to bow hunt Kodiak with his guide only carrying bear spray to back him up? I mean by his own research it's more effective than anything else. As for me when I finally spend the $$ to bow hunt Kodiak I will have a G20 for my defensive weapon and my back up will have either a 12ga. with slugs or a large caliber rifle to back me up. I'll 100% concede that shotgun with slugs or large caliber rifle trumps a handgun in a bear defense situation as long as that shotgun or rifle is in your hands. Since I am generally doing something in the woods that requires the use of both hands and I don't want to have to set my bear defense down I use a pistol instead of a long gun. Bear spray is a great option that allows you to do the same but the pistol works in windy wet situations where bear spray loses its effectiveness. Never forget this tidbit of advice... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472009/Bear_Turd-3259074.jpg I never said a firearm isn't bad for bear defense. Show me where I said that? I said a PISTOL, a PISTOL, a PISTOL is bad for bear defense and instead you should use bear spray if you can't carry a shotgun with slugs in it or a rifle of at least a .308. Let me say it again, I said a PISTOL. Keyword PISTOL. Is not idea defense against a bear. There are plenty of data to support this that a pistol is not ideal in a bear attack situation. The one article I mentioned is not the ONLY article I read supporting this that bear spray is better than a pistol. The funny thing about antigunners, is how they absolutely refuse to bother reading anything that disproves their BS. The second link I provided specifically states Effectiveness of HANDGUNS for bear defense. By now, everyone else in the thread knows you still won’t read it, and will continue to blather on about obscure references to “lots of articles/studies” with zero links. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 1:15:52 AM EST
[#10]
I’d like to point out that ‘ideal’ for bear defense is far from realistic for bear defense. What you have on you everywhere is better than something in the truck, in a sling on your back, leaned against the tree while you take a dump, etc.
10mm is popular because it packs a decent punch in an easy to carry package. Is the the same as a 12ga Brenneke black magic?Nope, but a lot easier to shoot and more portable than a 12ga. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 1:48:49 AM EST
[#11]
My Gen3 G20SF has been 100%…even with weaker ball ammo. I wouldn’t have a bit of doubt using it for self defense for two or four legged predators.
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Posted: 7/6/2024 1:50:56 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Personally I would recommend that you remove the sights and any light/accessories you have in the rail. That way it will go up your arse smoothly when the bear does it. A handgun is not recommended as a bear protection at all despite some of the stories you read online. The only thing that will stop it effectively is a slug from a shotgun, or a rifle that's at least .308. There are equal number of stories of people dumping .44 magnums into bears and it still has enough life left to attack the person before it goes down. There's a higher chance that you'll just wound the bear and leave it to suffer a miserable long end. I would also try something more proven like bear mace spray that seems to have a better track record in protecting people from an attack. While a gun might sound great and okay, there's a higher chance you'll wound it than humanely kill it. He’s not hunting. It’s pure self defense. It doesn’t matter if the bear survives as long as it stops the attack. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 4:50:32 AM EST
[#13]
In terms of 9mm, the new Winchester M1152 developed for the MHS would be a pretty solid contender. 115gr flat point fmj @ 1320fps.
50"+ in bare gel, 35" after going through 1/2" MDF board simulating animal ribs.  Winchester M1152 9mm - Best Penetrating 9mm Ammo? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 8:56:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: The funny thing about antigunners, is how they absolutely refuse to bother reading anything that disproves their BS. The second link I provided specifically states Effectiveness of HANDGUNS for bear defense. By now, everyone else in the thread knows you still won’t read it, and will continue to blather on about obscure references to “lots of articles/studies” with zero links. I did read it and you're unfortunately wrong. I'd rather read personal stories of a bear attack but I don't see any on this thread. I see cameras stills of bears but that's not the same as being attacked by a bear. It doesn't matter what any of us say about it because 99% of us won't even encounter a bear and just because you carry a handgun in the woods doesn't mean you're a bear expert. I'm not "antigunner" as you claim considering I'm part of the VCDL organization of my local state. Telling someone carrying a handgun as a bear protection is a bad idea and instead should use a provable bear spray is not anti gun but trying to save someone's life. If you want to walk in the woods and you know you're going to encounter a bear, it is best to carry a rifle or shotgun. If you live in the woods or plan to camp in the woods, I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a rifle/shotgun on the ready. You keep saying I should produce all these links but a simple google search reveal that bear spray is effective and useful over a pistol. It's kind of a scary concept I know but it's proven as stated in the study. The article you linked is trying to disprove what the media interpretation of the study is as a whole that firearm shouldn't be carried and your assumption based on the article that I'm somehow anti gun. The fact is a pistol is a bad idea against a large animal. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 9:39:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#15]
Oh, and I guess you want a bunch of articles when I google "bear spray vs pistol" and here are some of the links:
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/ask-meateater-pistol-or-bear-spray-in-grizzly-country https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf https://outsidebozeman.com/nature/bear-spray-vs-guns Here's your article in spoken form just in case you want to watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B53Wd_IaybQ Here's a good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASFQh13Dj8&ab_channel=EssentialWilderness-StephanKesting and the guy says something important: "The data doesn't care about your feelings." Watch the end of the video: he encountered a bear and wished he had bear spray when he encountered a mother bear and it didn't run off after some warning shots. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 9:43:18 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: I did read it and you're unfortunately wrong. I'd rather read personal stories of a bear attack but I don't see any on this thread. I see cameras stills of bears but that's not the same as being attacked by a bear. It doesn't matter what any of us say about it because 99% of us won't even encounter a bear and just because you carry a handgun in the woods doesn't mean you're a bear expert. I'm not "antigunner" as you claim considering I'm part of the VCDL organization of my local state. Telling someone carrying a handgun as a bear protection is a bad idea and instead should use a provable bear spray is not anti gun but trying to save someone's life. If you want to walk in the woods and you know you're going to encounter a bear, it is best to carry a rifle or shotgun. If you live in the woods or plan to camp in the woods, I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a rifle/shotgun on the ready. You keep saying I should produce all these links but a simple google search reveal that bear spray is effective and useful over a pistol. It's kind of a scary concept I know but it's proven as stated in the study. The article you linked is trying to disprove what the media interpretation of the study is as a whole that firearm shouldn't be carried and your assumption based on the article that I'm somehow anti gun. The fact is a pistol is a bad idea against a large animal. I’m sure you’ll chime in with personal Virginia brown bear stories shortly… You can’t carry a shotgun or rifle everywhere. A .44 mag or 10mm Auto is better than nothing. Most people living in brown bear territory carry bear spray and a handgun. Why do you believe it’s one or the other? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 9:52:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: I’m sure you’ll chime in with personal Virginia brown bear stories shortly… You can’t carry a shotgun or rifle everywhere. A .44 mag or 10mm Auto is better than nothing. Most people living in brown bear territory carry bear spray and a handgun. Why do you believe it’s one or the other? As the guy said, 90% of us believe we're above intelligence and a good shot. A lot of people don't survive a bear attack. It's a powerful animal and if it wants to attack you, it's going to attack you. It's better to have a provable method than something that requires exact placement. At this point I said all I said and hopefully it'll help someone. I won't reply anymore since it's going in circles and people are pretending to be bear experts because they got a 10mm. All I'm saying is that you should base your research on data and I would rather have the handgun against a crazy hiker encounter than for a bear. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 9:55:21 AM EST
[#18]
I'd rather read personal stories of a bear attack but I don't see any on this thread. I stopped a black bear attack with a 642 running 135+p short barrel gold dots. What do you want to know? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 10:43:40 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Curmudgeon762: I don’t think you would find a better choice in terms of a pistol Fir shits and grins I handled a G20 at Cabelas while buying a SIG P224. It felt blocky. When I told the gun manager I was also looking for a SIG P220 Elite in 10mm, she showed me an FDE P220 Elite and I bought it on the spot. I'm going to order some Underwood and BB loads. Who makes decent range ammo? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 1:07:39 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raygixxer89: Fir shits and grins I handled a G20 at Cabelas while buying a SIG P224. It felt blocky. When I told the gun manager I was also looking for a SIG P220 Elite in 10mm, she showed me an FDE P220 Elite and I bought it on the spot. I'm going to order some Underwood and BB loads. Who makes decent range ammo? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By Curmudgeon762: I don’t think you would find a better choice in terms of a pistol Fir shits and grins I handled a G20 at Cabelas while buying a SIG P224. It felt blocky. When I told the gun manager I was also looking for a SIG P220 Elite in 10mm, she showed me an FDE P220 Elite and I bought it on the spot. I'm going to order some Underwood and BB loads. Who makes decent range ammo? Underwood has decent ball ammo for the range. Of the major manufacturers, Sig Elite FMJ is at least better than .40S&W, in the mid-600ft-lbs range, though not quite into the 7xx ft-lbs range. It was noticeably better than Sellier&Bellot 10mm, which felt about the same as 9mm through a G17. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 3:02:35 PM EST
[#21]
This thread is gold.
Black bear? 10mm is overkill. 9mm is fine. Baited, hunted, trapped and run hound retrieval for black bear here in Maine for 20 years. Never once have I, a customer, a peer or anyone else needed anything more than a 10mm anything for black bear. These are not grizzly. Not even close. They are the most kiddish animal in the woods. That guy saying mace over a pistol is funny. And wrong. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 5:04:04 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: This thread is gold. Black bear? 10mm is overkill. 9mm is fine. Baited, hunted, trapped and run hound retrieval for black bear here in Maine for 20 years. Never once have I, a customer, a peer or anyone else needed anything more than a 10mm anything for black bear. These are not grizzly. Not even close. They are the most kiddish animal in the woods. That guy saying mace over a pistol is funny. And wrong. No, no, no, he's been to Michigan with relatives and read magazine articles. That clearly trumps your 20 years of hunting and trapping bears.  I live in black bear country in the Upper Peninsula and the bear threat is minimal. Now that Mountain Lion that roams the area, the summa bitch has me carrying a 9mm or better every time I go into the woods. Having lived in Alaska I'm not sure anything is good defense against a predatory/cornered Brown Bear. One of the tourist things we did while there was one of the bus tours through Denali. We missed seeing it but the tour bus driver stated that the day before our tour they had watched a male Grizzly kill and eat one of two cubs in front of mama and an entire busload of tourists. He said mama made about a 5 second attempt to save her baby before the male put her in her place and she just sauntered off with the cub that wasn't being eaten. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 5:37:51 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Curmudgeon762: I don’t think you would find a better choice in terms of a pistol Fir shits and grins I handled a G20 at Cabelas while buying a SIG P224. It felt blocky. When I told the gun manager I was also looking for a SIG P220 Elite in 10mm, she showed me an FDE P220 Elite and I bought it on the spot. I'm going to order some Underwood and BB loads. Who makes decent range ammo? |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 5:41:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: NorthPolar]
[#24]
Interesting timing for the post from S&W
KODIAK BEAR charged from 12 feet and taken with an M&P10MM. Photo & story: josephvonbenedikt on Instagram https://x.com/smith_wessoninc/status/1809419751896093022?s=46&t=TKOaKKpXKm8w8W2SDzatBQ |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:30:33 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Oh, and I guess you want a bunch of articles when I google "bear spray vs pistol" and here are some of the links: https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/ask-meateater-pistol-or-bear-spray-in-grizzly-country https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf https://outsidebozeman.com/nature/bear-spray-vs-guns Here's your article in spoken form just in case you want to watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B53Wd_IaybQ Here's a good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASFQh13Dj8&ab_channel=EssentialWilderness-StephanKesting and the guy says something important: "The data doesn't care about your feelings." Watch the end of the video: he encountered a bear and wished he had bear spray when he encountered a mother bear and it didn't run off after some warning shots. The article in the first link LITERALLY mentions cases where the bear charged through a cloud of bear spray to tackle the hunter, then goes on to say that he carries bear spray, but if it comes to surviving a bear attack, he’d rather shoot and kill the bear than risk hoping the spray works. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:53:56 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: Underwood has decent ball ammo for the range. Of the major manufacturers, Sig Elite FMJ is at least better than .40S&W, in the mid-600ft-lbs range, though not quite into the 7xx ft-lbs range. It was noticeably better than Sellier&Bellot 10mm, which felt about the same as 9mm through a G17. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By Curmudgeon762: I don’t think you would find a better choice in terms of a pistol Fir shits and grins I handled a G20 at Cabelas while buying a SIG P224. It felt blocky. When I told the gun manager I was also looking for a SIG P220 Elite in 10mm, she showed me an FDE P220 Elite and I bought it on the spot. I'm going to order some Underwood and BB loads. Who makes decent range ammo? Underwood has decent ball ammo for the range. Of the major manufacturers, Sig Elite FMJ is at least better than .40S&W, in the mid-600ft-lbs range, though not quite into the 7xx ft-lbs range. It was noticeably better than Sellier&Bellot 10mm, which felt about the same as 9mm through a G17. Thank you. Does SIG still have their line of ammo? I'd like to try it out. I've heard their 357SIG load is pretty good. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:57:25 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: The article in the first link LITERALLY mentions cases where the bear charged through a cloud of bear spray to tackle the hunter, then goes on to say that he carries bear spray, but if it comes to surviving a bear attack, he’d rather shoot and kill the bear than risk hoping the spray works. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: Originally Posted By dalle0001: Oh, and I guess you want a bunch of articles when I google "bear spray vs pistol" and here are some of the links: https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/ask-meateater-pistol-or-bear-spray-in-grizzly-country https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf https://outsidebozeman.com/nature/bear-spray-vs-guns Here's your article in spoken form just in case you want to watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B53Wd_IaybQ Here's a good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASFQh13Dj8&ab_channel=EssentialWilderness-StephanKesting and the guy says something important: "The data doesn't care about your feelings." Watch the end of the video: he encountered a bear and wished he had bear spray when he encountered a mother bear and it didn't run off after some warning shots. The article in the first link LITERALLY mentions cases where the bear charged through a cloud of bear spray to tackle the hunter, then goes on to say that he carries bear spray, but if it comes to surviving a bear attack, he’d rather shoot and kill the bear than risk hoping the spray works. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2024 8:01:13 PM EST
[#28]
Your 17 with some underwood hard cast or penetrators would be 100% adequate.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Personally I would recommend that you remove the sights and any light/accessories you have in the rail. That way it will go up your arse smoothly when the bear does it. A handgun is not recommended as a bear protection at all despite some of the stories you read online. The only thing that will stop it effectively is a slug from a shotgun, or a rifle that's at least .308. There are equal number of stories of people dumping .44 magnums into bears and it still has enough life left to attack the person before it goes down. There's a higher chance that you'll just wound the bear and leave it to suffer a miserable long end. I would also try something more proven like bear mace spray that seems to have a better track record in protecting people from an attack. While a gun might sound great and okay, there's a higher chance you'll wound it than humanely kill it. Whenever one of these threads come up, there’s always one of these guys. Yeah, pistols suck for bear, that’s why they have a 97% success rate in defense against bear attacks when you analyze actual data instead of fuddlore. https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/#axzz8DLR2jzMs |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 7/7/2024 7:20:12 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: One time me and my family were on a trip in Michigan and black bears were known to frequent it. I came from a plane so I couldn’t carry anything but they had shotguns loaded with slugs. I did asked about what they thought of someone wanting to carry a handgun and they thought it was a dumb idea. The bear mace sounds a bit more proven method over a handgun given the data but me personally I would carry a shotgun with slugs if I knew I could encounter bears. Second to that I would carry the bear mace over a pistol. …they thought a pistol was dumb…for black bears??? LMFAO We have an insane amount of black bears down here. 99% of the time they run away the instant they see you. They’re not nearly as strong or aggressive as grizzly bears. 10mm would be more than sufficient. I wouldn’t feel undergunned in the slightest carrying 9mm for black bear… |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 8:34:36 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: One time me and my family were on a trip in Michigan and black bears were known to frequent it. I came from a plane so I couldn’t carry anything but they had shotguns loaded with slugs. I did asked about what they thought of someone wanting to carry a handgun and they thought it was a dumb idea. The bear mace sounds a bit more proven method over a handgun given the data but me personally I would carry a shotgun with slugs if I knew I could encounter bears. Second to that I would carry the bear mace over a pistol. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Originally Posted By AL25: So you're saying that if given the choice between a 10mm pistol or bear spray in bear country, you'd choose the spray. That's dumb. If a bear is attacking me I really don't care if I wound him or kill him on the spot. I just want him to stop attacking me. One time me and my family were on a trip in Michigan and black bears were known to frequent it. I came from a plane so I couldn’t carry anything but they had shotguns loaded with slugs. I did asked about what they thought of someone wanting to carry a handgun and they thought it was a dumb idea. The bear mace sounds a bit more proven method over a handgun given the data but me personally I would carry a shotgun with slugs if I knew I could encounter bears. Second to that I would carry the bear mace over a pistol. Let's get this straight: you went to a place with bears once and someone told you that shotguns were better than pistols? Thanks for sharing that information with us little people. A pistol is worse than bear spray? You haven't read the bear defense handgun studies. On the opposite end of the spectrum of derp: last time I was in griz country an old geezer told me "that little popgun ain't gonna do anything, a .44mag is marginal, ya need a .500 Smith if ya wanna stop em." I asked him where his .500 was because he wasn't carrying it. I also asked him if he read the bear attack handgun study data and he looked at me like I had two heads. People would be well served by taking a minute to form some coherent thoughts before letting things fall out their mouth. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 12:03:50 PM EST
[#31]
The Meat Eater guys have done a lot of research on this, and they all carry both spray and pistols….
I’d carry a pistol if I can only carry one. Works better for 2 legged predators than spray. |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 2:11:52 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: As the guy said, 90% of us believe we're above intelligence and a good shot. A lot of people don't survive a bear attack. It's a powerful animal and if it wants to attack you, it's going to attack you. It's better to have a provable method than something that requires exact placement. At this point I said all I said and hopefully it'll help someone. I won't reply anymore since it's going in circles and people are pretending to be bear experts because they got a 10mm. All I'm saying is that you should base your research on data and I would rather have the handgun against a crazy hiker encounter than for a bear. You were saying? Just posted a couple hours ago.  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/7/2024 7:14:16 PM EST
[#33]
Wonder where shot placement was looks like a pretty health spot behind the front leg. Also wonder what bullet
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Posted: 7/7/2024 7:34:55 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Wonder where shot placement was looks like a pretty health spot behind the front leg. Also wonder what bullet I didn’t watch the interview. He may have covered it there. |
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Posted: 7/10/2024 6:41:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: cms81586]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sledhead907: I hate people citing stats with no data linked. Cite your source so we can see it. He did a drive by and disappeared. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Man-kills-1000lb-Kodiak-in-wild-encounter/5-2735329/ |
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Posted: 7/10/2024 7:22:43 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Man-kills-1000lb-Kodiak-in-wild-encounter/5-2735329/ That thread is peak GD and all over the map. |
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Posted: 7/10/2024 11:38:57 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FDC: That thread is peak GD and all over the map. It is…but it still happened regardless of GD autism. |
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Posted: 7/10/2024 11:56:19 AM EST
[#38]
I have almost no experience with the big Glock.
Shot a mag or so through a friends gun. I wonder if it might be something that might suffer from limp wresting? As with all weapons that one contemplates useing for self defense it makes sense to run several boxes of intended use ammo through it . exact gun, magazines and ammo . If it works it works , if not find out why or move on. Brand new gun and mags might be a bit wonky at first but that is why you shoot it. |
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Posted: 7/10/2024 12:03:52 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: It is…but it still happened regardless of GD autism. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: Originally Posted By FDC: That thread is peak GD and all over the map. It is…but it still happened regardless of GD autism. Indeed, but most of us here know that pistols are just fine for defending against bear. Particularly blacks. |
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Posted: 7/10/2024 6:13:11 PM EST
[#40]
9mm is adequate for black bears. My favorite around the house is rubber slugs to the ass. It usually keeps them from coming back.
 Attached File |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 7/10/2024 9:42:15 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nate19: No issues with my 20.4 with hot hardcast 200 grain Underwood loads, although I haven’t shot more than a few boxes of them. I wouldn’t hesitate at all to trust it in the woods. This is my exact "woods gun" setup...supplemented with 200gr XTPs for two-legged predators. Recoil impulse and POA/POI are very similar. |
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Posted: 7/11/2024 10:39:39 AM EST
[#42]
Sorry if this is a Dupe, Handguns in general work:
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/handguns-for-bear-defense-lessons-from-real-world-attacks/ |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/11/2024 11:26:55 AM EST
[#43]
The OP wanted to know if the G20 was reliable and if it could be helpful against black bear. We now have dozens of posts about brown bears and spray versus handguns. Is this a tech thread or GD?
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Posted: 7/11/2024 4:38:52 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-180: The OP wanted to know if the G20 was reliable and if it could be helpful against black bear. We now have dozens of posts about brown bears and spray versus handguns. Is this a tech thread or GD? That’s a great question. But the answer to the OP’s question is yes. |
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Posted: 7/11/2024 4:56:15 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-180: The OP wanted to know if the G20 was reliable and if it could be helpful against black bear. We now have dozens of posts about brown bears and spray versus handguns. Is this a tech thread or GD? We tried to tell him the answer was yes. Someone who has never seen a bear said no that pistols are not the answer. Someone countered the pistols are not the answer argument with a larger(brown) bear killed by a pistol as some evidence. We're still saying the G20 is reliable as most Glocks are while addressing the fact that a pistol can kill bears. If it can kill a brown, it will kill a black. So again, G20 is reliable. As with all firearms, you should test with your chosen ammo to ensure it is reliable and has no factory defects. My walking around the back 40 G20.3SF with TLR-1HL loaded with Underwood 200Gr.  Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 7/11/2024 5:39:39 PM EST
[#46]
Appreciate all the input, and the humor.
 Glad to hear the positive experiences with the G20, sounds like a plenty good option. But after reading some of the replies I think I need to research the 9mm aspect a little more. That would certainly save some money, if it really is enough for these bears.
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Posted: 7/12/2024 7:45:05 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: He did a drive by and disappeared. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Man-kills-1000lb-Kodiak-in-wild-encounter/5-2735329/ Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: Originally Posted By sledhead907: I hate people citing stats with no data linked. Cite your source so we can see it. He did a drive by and disappeared. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Man-kills-1000lb-Kodiak-in-wild-encounter/5-2735329/ Of course, when your only experience with big furry animals comes from “Where the Wild Things Are”… G20.4 here with Underwood 200gr. HC when I’m in the backcountry of AK. Spray isn’t considered because it’s too limited in use and, as stated, isn’t a sure bet that it’ll work anyway. That said, I’ll take my chances with the G20… |
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Posted: 7/12/2024 9:59:00 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sledhead907: Of course, when your only experience with big furry animals comes from “Where the Wild Things Are”… G20.4 here with Underwood 200gr. HC when I’m in the backcountry of AK. Spray isn’t considered because it’s too limited in use and, as stated, isn’t a sure bet that it’ll work anyway. That said, I’ll take my chances with the G20… I carry a small can of bear spray worth a shot or two….but not the huge stupid fire extinguisher. Escalation of force with employment being situationally dependent. If you’re in a laurel stand and come up on a bear very close…or a sow with cubs…going straight to guns. I’d try the spray if a curious bear won’t leave with yelling. Bear spray can be effective…until it’s not and then you’re fucked if you don’t have a real means to protect yourself. Spray as step 1 and a G20.3 for me and Underwood ammo as the last resort. Also keeps the tree huggers and fish and game off your back if you expended a can of spray first and end up having to shoot a bear… |
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Posted: 7/13/2024 9:12:18 AM EST
[#49]
Dude who says he “couldn’t bring a gun bc he flew” is not only wrong about bear spray being better than pistols, but also lazy.
I just flew to grizzly country, and brought a pistol - no bullshit it added 5 minutes to my travel time and that was going through a major metro airport in a blue city. Bear spray in the national parks is a racket… it’s sold to all the tourists and they can’t take it home - every visit equals a sale… |
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Posted: 7/13/2024 9:19:36 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Swordfish92: Dude who says he “couldn’t bring a gun bc he flew” is not only wrong about bear spray being better than pistols, but also lazy. I just flew to grizzly country, and brought a pistol - no bullshit it added 5 minutes to my travel time and that was going through a major metro airport in a blue city. Bear spray in the national parks is a racket… it’s sold to all the tourists and they can’t take it home - every visit equals a sale… Yeah I’ve flown countless times with guns. Into California, Hawaii, Washington and about a half dozen red states. It’s not a big deal and only adds a few minutes to your travel time. |
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