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Posted: 8/7/2024 8:03:40 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Kehoe will be a good governor. This was a good outcome. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By Bye_Felicia: Looks like Kehoe won, Eigel second and Ashcroft 3rd. Kehoe will be a good governor. This was a good outcome. He has my vote for sure in November. I obviously voted for Eigel, but I'm not upset with Kehoe in the office. His opponent will be Quade, which I sure do not want to see elected. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 8:43:46 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Kehoe will be a good governor. This was a good outcome. I hope your optimism is well founded. Greitens pleasantly surprised me [although I did vote for him in the general] and maybe Kehoe will too? I'm fairly certain he'll not be 'bad' but wonder if he is the 'best'. I'd love to hear why You hold such optimism? @Bladeswitcher |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 9:02:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: I hope your optimism is well founded. Greitens pleasantly surprised me [although I did vote for him in the general] and maybe Kehoe will too? I'm fairly certain he'll not be 'bad' but wonder if he is the 'best'. I'd love to hear why You hold such optimism? @Bladeswitcher I've watched him as Lt. Gov. and while he presided over the Senate. I think his heart is in the right place. He's not an ideologue or a narcissist. He actually seems to be motivated by the desire to solve problems and make things work. It's a completely different way of thinking from most politicians who are mostly interested in themselves. People say they want somebody who will bring a business approach to government. In Kehoe you've got it. He is the boss. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 9:54:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: I've watched him as Lt. Gov. and while he presided over the Senate. I think his heart is in the right place. He's not an ideologue or a narcissist. He actually seems to be motivated by the desire to solve problems and make things work. It's a completely different way of thinking from most politicians who are mostly interested in themselves. People say they want somebody who will bring a business approach to government. In Kehoe you've got it. He is the boss. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By Deuskid: I hope your optimism is well founded. Greitens pleasantly surprised me [although I did vote for him in the general] and maybe Kehoe will too? I'm fairly certain he'll not be 'bad' but wonder if he is the 'best'. I'd love to hear why You hold such optimism? @Bladeswitcher I've watched him as Lt. Gov. and while he presided over the Senate. I think his heart is in the right place. He's not an ideologue or a narcissist. He actually seems to be motivated by the desire to solve problems and make things work. It's a completely different way of thinking from most politicians who are mostly interested in themselves. People say they want somebody who will bring a business approach to government. In Kehoe you've got it. He is the boss. I wish I had your confidence. His history screams fudd, he has zero 2A endorsements, and the MFC guys claim he had to be badgered into not killing the constitutional carry bill and override. He also has a history of supporting tax increases, and he's the only one of the big three candidates that didn't have elimination of either state income or personal property tax on their list of positions. I'm still going to vote for him in the general, but this dude stinks like a loaded port-a-john. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 10:58:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: I wish I had your confidence. His history screams fudd, he has zero 2A endorsements, and the MFC guys claim he had to be badgered into not killing the constitutional carry bill and override. He also has a history of supporting tax increases, and he's the only one of the big three candidates that didn't have elimination of either state income or personal property tax on their list of positions. I'm still going to vote for him in the general, but this dude stinks like a loaded port-a-john. I would much rather have a genuine "Fudd" -- somebody who actually owns, shoots and enjoys guns -- than some guy who pretends to back gun rights because he knows he has to claim 2A bona fides to get elected. I firmly believe that neither Ashcroft or Eigel would have anything to do with guns if they weren't politicians and I suspect both probably secretly think guns are icky. In fact, I don't believe either of those guys has any legitimate history with personal gun use or ownership. Actions speak louder than words. I welcome anyone proving to me that the "REAL" Eigel is a gun guy. As for not pandering to voters by saying you're going to eliminate income taxes and/or personal property taxes, well, that's just an indication that Kehoe isn't lying to you like the others are (on this issue anyway). Government isn't going away. As long as we have a government, we have to fund it. Eigel yammers on about eliminating personal property taxes but if you look at the bill he proposed it's a big nothing burger. It's all bullshit. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 11:25:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Wasn't Eigel one of the parties of the group that screwed up the Senate all session long so that nothing got done?
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USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:01:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JAD762]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Simple. Circulate a petition, get hundreds of thousands of people to sign it and a majority of of Missourians to vote for it. Alternatively, you could get a majority of of the House and Senate to commit career suicide and put a constitutional amendment on the ballot and then convince a majority of Missourians to vote for it. But seriously dude, Missouri has one of the best fish and wildlife departments in the country and some truly incredible public resources. We have a proud conservation history here and have been and continue to be the envy of the nation when it comes to rod and gun type stuff. What possible reason would you want to get rid of the the conservation tax? If there was ever an example of a GOOD tax, that's it. Eh. The MDC accomplishes the same task as every other state's conservation department, but at a much greater expense. Missourians like to think that the MDC is the "envy of the nation" but the only thing other departments actually envy is their budget. The conservation tax has let the MDC create a huge bureaucracy that's become increasingly disconnected from the people they serve & we have no recourse to fix it because we have virtually no say over their funding. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:04:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: I would much rather have a genuine "Fudd" -- somebody who actually owns, shoots and enjoys guns -- than some guy who pretends to back gun rights because he knows he has to claim 2A bona fides to get elected. I firmly believe that neither Ashcroft or Eigel would have anything to do with guns if they weren't politicians and I suspect both probably secretly think guns are icky. In fact, I don't believe either of those guys has any legitimate history with personal gun use or ownership. Actions speak louder than words. I welcome anyone proving to me that the "REAL" Eigel is a gun guy. As for not pandering to voters by saying you're going to eliminate income taxes and/or personal property taxes, well, that's just an indication that Kehoe isn't lying to you like the others are (on this issue anyway). Government isn't going away. As long as we have a government, we have to fund it. Eigel yammers on about eliminating personal property taxes but if you look at the bill he proposed it's a big nothing burger. It's all bullshit. Saying you're going to eliminate personal property taxes ranks right up there with saying you're going to eliminate all student debt. There's no realistic mechanism to do it. Its just an empty promise to get votes from the gullible. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:11:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Eh. The MDC accomplishes the same task as every other state's conservation department, but at a much greater expense. Missourians like to think that the MDC is the "envy of the nation" but the only thing other departments actually envy is their budget. The conservation tax has let the MDC create a huge bureaucracy that's become increasingly disconnected from the people they serve & we have no recourse to fix it because we have virtually no say over their funding. OK. Launch your petition drive, put the question on the ballot and see where a majority of Missourians stand. Lucky for you, the legislature failed to reform the initiative petition process, so you'll only have to sway 50% +1. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:19:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RU98A: Wasn't Eigel one of the parties of the group that screwed up the Senate all session long so that nothing got done? Eigel was one of the senators that stopped the senate from doing other things to prioritize IP reform. He did his job. It was senate leadership who ultimately kept anything from happening because lobbyists controlled the leadership. Ultimately crooked politicians owned by lobbyists held up the senate while Eigel and others were trying to represent us |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:27:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: I would much rather have a genuine "Fudd" -- somebody who actually owns, shoots and enjoys guns -- than some guy who pretends to back gun rights because he knows he has to claim 2A bona fides to get elected. I firmly believe that neither Ashcroft or Eigel would have anything to do with guns if they weren't politicians and I suspect both probably secretly think guns are icky. In fact, I don't believe either of those guys has any legitimate history with personal gun use or ownership. Actions speak louder than words. I welcome anyone proving to me that the "REAL" Eigel is a gun guy. As for not pandering to voters by saying you're going to eliminate income taxes and/or personal property taxes, well, that's just an indication that Kehoe isn't lying to you like the others are (on this issue anyway). Government isn't going away. As long as we have a government, we have to fund it. Eigel yammers on about eliminating personal property taxes but if you look at the bill he proposed it's a big nothing burger. It's all bullshit. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: I wish I had your confidence. His history screams fudd, he has zero 2A endorsements, and the MFC guys claim he had to be badgered into not killing the constitutional carry bill and override. He also has a history of supporting tax increases, and he's the only one of the big three candidates that didn't have elimination of either state income or personal property tax on their list of positions. I'm still going to vote for him in the general, but this dude stinks like a loaded port-a-john. I would much rather have a genuine "Fudd" -- somebody who actually owns, shoots and enjoys guns -- than some guy who pretends to back gun rights because he knows he has to claim 2A bona fides to get elected. I firmly believe that neither Ashcroft or Eigel would have anything to do with guns if they weren't politicians and I suspect both probably secretly think guns are icky. In fact, I don't believe either of those guys has any legitimate history with personal gun use or ownership. Actions speak louder than words. I welcome anyone proving to me that the "REAL" Eigel is a gun guy. As for not pandering to voters by saying you're going to eliminate income taxes and/or personal property taxes, well, that's just an indication that Kehoe isn't lying to you like the others are (on this issue anyway). Government isn't going away. As long as we have a government, we have to fund it. Eigel yammers on about eliminating personal property taxes but if you look at the bill he proposed it's a big nothing burger. It's all bullshit. Horse shit. Fudds are the guys that bring us AWBs, import bans, UBIs, and nonsense like "sporting purposes," and fudds are the guys that block things like national reciprocity, NFA reform, and SAPA. You know who else "actually owns, shoots, and enjoys guns?" The VP on the most extreme leftist presidential ticket in US history:  As far as the 2A is concerned, what's the difference between Kehoe and Tampax Tim? What's Kehoe going to do when Dems in the US federal government persist with their incremental infringements? What's he going to do when it's time for a fight and the SAF/GOA/NRA call for help? Because the man's own webpage has very little to say on the subject of 2A. The fact that Kehoe shoots birds doesn't mean a damn thing. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:30:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Eh. The MDC accomplishes the same task as every other state's conservation department, but at a much greater expense. Missourians like to think that the MDC is the "envy of the nation" but the only thing other departments actually envy is their budget. The conservation tax has let the MDC create a huge bureaucracy that's become increasingly disconnected from the people they serve & we have no recourse to fix it because we have virtually no say over their funding. ^ this! I am a hunter, fisherman and supporter of conservation efforts. I am not a supporter of wasteful, excessive spending and which the sales tax allows. Roll MDC into the budget process like other departments. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:35:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: The fact that Kehoe shoots birds doesn't mean a damn thing. And neither do staged gun range videos from a suburban faker who doesn't know the first damn thing about guns. BTW, if we were comparing Kehoe to Rick Brattin you might have a point. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:36:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: ^ this! I am a hunter, fisherman and supporter of conservation efforts. I am not a supporter of wasteful, excessive spending and which the sales tax allows. Roll MDC into the budget process like other departments. Initiative petitions. How do they work? Have at it. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:38:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Saying you're going to eliminate personal property taxes ranks right up there with saying you're going to eliminate all student debt. There's no realistic mechanism to do it. Its just an empty promise to get votes from the gullible. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher: I would much rather have a genuine "Fudd" -- somebody who actually owns, shoots and enjoys guns -- than some guy who pretends to back gun rights because he knows he has to claim 2A bona fides to get elected. I firmly believe that neither Ashcroft or Eigel would have anything to do with guns if they weren't politicians and I suspect both probably secretly think guns are icky. In fact, I don't believe either of those guys has any legitimate history with personal gun use or ownership. Actions speak louder than words. I welcome anyone proving to me that the "REAL" Eigel is a gun guy. As for not pandering to voters by saying you're going to eliminate income taxes and/or personal property taxes, well, that's just an indication that Kehoe isn't lying to you like the others are (on this issue anyway). Government isn't going away. As long as we have a government, we have to fund it. Eigel yammers on about eliminating personal property taxes but if you look at the bill he proposed it's a big nothing burger. It's all bullshit. Saying you're going to eliminate personal property taxes ranks right up there with saying you're going to eliminate all student debt. There's no realistic mechanism to do it. Its just an empty promise to get votes from the gullible. Really? Let's look around the nation...    States like Florida, Texas, and Wyoming don't collect income tax, and not only are they not collecting enough property or sales taxes to make up the difference, but they're sometimes beating us there, too. What services does Missouri provide that those states don't? Those states have roads, schools, and emergency services, right? Missouri citizens are paying more, but what are we getting? |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:53:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: And neither do staged gun range videos from a suburban faker who doesn't know the first damn thing about guns. BTW, if we were comparing Kehoe to Rick Brattin you might have a point. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: The fact that Kehoe shoots birds doesn't mean a damn thing. And neither do staged gun range videos from a suburban faker who doesn't know the first damn thing about guns. BTW, if we were comparing Kehoe to Rick Brattin you might have a point. At least some guys are willing to give lip-service and make specific 2A policy claims on their site. Kehoe doesn't even do that much. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:58:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: OK. Launch your petition drive, put the question on the ballot and see where a majority of Missourians stand. Lucky for you, the legislature failed to reform the initiative petition process, so you'll only have to sway 50% +1. Oh, I'm very aware that the conservation tax is a golden calf and most people have no clue of how the MDC operates. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 12:59:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Really? Let's look around the nation... https://files.taxfoundation.org/20230217151820/2023-state-individual-income-tax-rates-2023-state-income-taxes-by-state.png https://taxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Property-taxes-by-state-compare-state-property-tax-rankings.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20220202142849/2022-sales-taxes-including-2022-sales-tax-rates-2022-state-and-local-sales-tax-rates.png States like Florida, Texas, and Wyoming don't collect income tax, and not only are they not collecting enough property or sales taxes to make up the difference, but they're sometimes beating us there, too. What services does Missouri provide that those states don't? Those states have roads, schools, and emergency services, right? Missouri citizens are paying more, but what are we getting? I'm sure you think you're making a great point here, but you're still not offering any realistic mechanism to get rid of property taxes. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 1:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: At least some guys are willing to give lip-service and make specific 2A policy claims on their site. Kehoe doesn't even do that much. Right. Just one of many other issues he apparently doesn't feel the need to posture about. He probably realizes gun control is a non-starter in Missouri so there's no need to drum up fear. Makes me wonder why the other guys try to pretend Missourians' gun rights are threatened on the state level when they're not. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 1:17:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Really? Let's look around the nation... https://files.taxfoundation.org/20230217151820/2023-state-individual-income-tax-rates-2023-state-income-taxes-by-state.png https://taxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Property-taxes-by-state-compare-state-property-tax-rankings.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20220202142849/2022-sales-taxes-including-2022-sales-tax-rates-2022-state-and-local-sales-tax-rates.png States like Florida, Texas, and Wyoming don't collect income tax, and not only are they not collecting enough property or sales taxes to make up the difference, but they're sometimes beating us there, too. What services does Missouri provide that those states don't? Those states have roads, schools, and emergency services, right? Missouri citizens are paying more, but what are we getting? According to this site, Missouri ranks 35th in the nation in terms of overall tax burden. I'm open to hearing legitimate proposals to reduce taxes in our state but I haven't heard one yet beyond the income tax reduction triggers already in place. Can you explain how Eigel planned to ensure local communities continue to have the resources they need to provide essential services after eliminating personal property taxes? BTW, it was pretty slick of Eigel to argue for a reduction in funding for local communities while claiming to reduce the size of state government. The state wouldn't be the entity to suffer from elimination of personal property taxes. It would be local governments. Have you read the FISCAL NOTE on Eigel's 2024 property tax legislation? Full disclosure. I supported the increased fuels tax passed a couple of years ago. It was long overdue, IMO. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 1:47:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: I'm sure you think you're making a great point here, but you're still not offering any realistic mechanism to get rid of property taxes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Really? Let's look around the nation... https://files.taxfoundation.org/20230217151820/2023-state-individual-income-tax-rates-2023-state-income-taxes-by-state.png https://taxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Property-taxes-by-state-compare-state-property-tax-rankings.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20220202142849/2022-sales-taxes-including-2022-sales-tax-rates-2022-state-and-local-sales-tax-rates.png States like Florida, Texas, and Wyoming don't collect income tax, and not only are they not collecting enough property or sales taxes to make up the difference, but they're sometimes beating us there, too. What services does Missouri provide that those states don't? Those states have roads, schools, and emergency services, right? Missouri citizens are paying more, but what are we getting? I'm sure you think you're making a great point here, but you're still not offering any realistic mechanism to get rid of property taxes. It's a one step process: 1) Spend less money. Somehow, Florida and Wyoming manage to perform the functions of a state government while collecting no income tax AND less property tax AND less sales tax. Someone from Missouri should probably call Desantis and the boys or the guys in Wyoming to ask how they do it. Then again, when Kehoe has endorsements from all those construction and farming lobbies, and he probably doesn't get those without those organizations thinking they're going to get some deals. And I heard somewhere that Kehoe was willing to get into a bidding war with Kansas Dem Laura Kelly to keep the Chiefs in Missouri using public money? Yeah... Kehoe is a big spending, big government kind of guy. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 1:58:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Right. Just one of many other issues he apparently doesn't feel the need to posture about. He probably realizes gun control is a non-starter in Missouri so there's no need to drum up fear. Makes me wonder why the other guys try to pretend Missourians' gun rights are threatened on the state level when they're not. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: At least some guys are willing to give lip-service and make specific 2A policy claims on their site. Kehoe doesn't even do that much. Right. Just one of many other issues he apparently doesn't feel the need to posture about. He probably realizes gun control is a non-starter in Missouri so there's no need to drum up fear. Makes me wonder why the other guys try to pretend Missourians' gun rights are threatened on the state level when they're not. Or Kehoe just doesn't give a damn. State level gun control is a low bar for a red state. We need state level government people that are willing to actively and aggressively fight the federal government when necessary. Do we have any evidence to suggest Kehoe is that one of those people? |
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USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 2:39:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: It's a one step process: 1) Spend less money. Somehow, Florida and Wyoming manage to perform the functions of a state government while collecting no income tax AND less property tax AND less sales tax. Someone from Missouri should probably call Desantis and the boys or the guys in Wyoming to ask how they do it. Then again, when Kehoe has endorsements from all those construction and farming lobbies, and he probably doesn't get those without those organizations thinking they're going to get some deals. And I heard somewhere that Kehoe was willing to get into a bidding war with Kansas Dem Laura Kelly to keep the Chiefs in Missouri using public money? Yeah... Kehoe is a big spending, big government kind of guy. So your plan is..."somehow". Its amazing that that solution isn't being picked up by more people. This might surprise you, but Florida and Wyoming and Missouri are wildly different states with wildly different revenue sources. You really can't just copy and paste one states budget onto another, you've actually got to think through it and come up with something workable. Which is something everyone wanting to drop MO's property tax has repeatedly failed at. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 3:21:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: As for not pandering to voters by saying you're going to eliminate income taxes and/or personal property taxes, well, that's just an indication that Kehoe isn't lying to you like the others are (on this issue anyway). Government isn't going away. As long as we have a government, we have to fund it. Eigel yammers on about eliminating personal property taxes but if you look at the bill he proposed it's a big nothing burger. It's all bullshit. You cannot be certain if they were pandering or lying. Until one is given the opportunity to do what they say they'll do you should take them at their word. MO budget has doubled in the last 5 years. That is alarming! That is unacceptable. Income tax + property tax is about 1/2 of the total budget. Cut back spending by 1/2, eliminate income and property taxes and you're there. There are a lot of secondary issues that concern me, e.g., 2A. The root cause of all of them is too much gov't.... gov't is too big. Reduce gov't and most of the other issues disappear. Big gov't leads to off mission meddling, waste and corruption. That is what we have now. Do you think, as it currently exists, our gov't is optimal? @Bladeswitcher |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 3:23:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Saying you're going to eliminate personal property taxes ranks right up there with saying you're going to eliminate all student debt. There's no realistic mechanism to do it. Its just an empty promise to get votes from the gullible. Doable. Cut spending. MO budget DOUBLED in the last 5 years. Cut it in 1/2 over the next 4 years back to what is was. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 3:37:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Full disclosure. I supported the increased fuels tax passed a couple of years ago. It was long overdue, IMO. This might surprise you but I was in favor of it too, still am. I'm a big believer in excise, use and sales taxes. Inhibit consumption, not production [income]. Fundamentally opposed on property taxes as, in theory, Gov't is supposed to protect our right to property, not tax it. I have a masters in economics and several related degrees with 45 years in commerce. Since MO maintains interstates within our borders but so many other states citizens use them [given our geographic centricity] it is only proper they pay for the service of using them. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 4:02:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: Doable. Cut spending. MO budget DOUBLED in the last 5 years. In 2020, Missouri's general revenue budget -- the money that comes from income taxes and sales tax -- was roughly $10 billion. Another $10 billion came from "other funds" (the fuels tax, conservation and parks tax, FRA, and a few other dedicated funds). Roughly $10 billion came from the federal government. Essentially, the budget was a three legged stool with each leg contributing about the same. In 2025, those numbers were $14 billion in general revenue, $11 billion in "other" funds and nearly $26 billion in federal money. While the state has experienced some economic growth and inflation that increased the general revenue pot, the real growth has been in federal programs. (The income tax RATE has actually gone down over those five years) By and large, federal funding is pass-through money as Missouri administers federal Medicaid programs in Missouri. Eligibility and the benefits provided are determined by Washington, D.C., not Jefferson City. Federal programs are larger due to ever-increasing health care cost and an expansion of the population that receives those benefits. (There's also been a bunch of one-time infrastructure investment paid for by the feds.) It's not because Missouri has greatly expanded the size of government. All that is to say that the overall growth of Missouri's budget is largely out of our hands. State programs -- the ones created by the state legislature -- have not grown much. So, I'm curious what STATE PROGRAMS you propose we cut. Roads, conservation or state parks would require a constitutional change. Prisons? Local schools? The Highway Patrol? Which programs that the legislature controls are you going to cut? |
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USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 5:00:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: Doable. Cut spending. MO budget DOUBLED in the last 5 years. Cut it in 1/2 over the next 4 years back to what is was. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: Originally Posted By JAD762: Saying you're going to eliminate personal property taxes ranks right up there with saying you're going to eliminate all student debt. There's no realistic mechanism to do it. Its just an empty promise to get votes from the gullible. Doable. Cut spending. MO budget DOUBLED in the last 5 years. Cut it in 1/2 over the next 4 years back to what is was. In addition to what bladeswitcher said, the 23% inflation we’ve had over the course of the past 5 years means you can’t get 2019 services at 2019 prices in 2024. That will be even more true in 2028. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2024 6:48:12 PM EDT
[#29]
You both assume that the state was spending the budget wisely 5 years ago.
They were not. There was waste then and more now. I think we need to look at and only at what the gov't should be doing then zero base budget [justify every dollar requested] and then prioritize. Approve to the point of the budget amount then cut off spending. I know this would be a legislative nightmare: GOOD. There is nothing more important and that'd leave less time for crony capitalism and foolish deals. Our founding fathers would call us balless fools. I cannot argue against their point. We are not free men, we are subjects exploited by the ruling class. Read your history. |
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Posted: 8/7/2024 8:38:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: You both assume that the state was spending the budget wisely 5 years ago. They were not. There was waste then and more now. . . . Not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious. Where should the budget be cut? Which specific programs? |
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USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 9:31:06 AM EDT
[#31]
I agree with the other posters saying MO tax burden is high. I lived in NC, SC, GA, and TX. This place is the worst for "death by a thousand cuts." It's not any one component that stands out (though sales taxes are getting out of hand). If all the state did was cap local sales taxes and eliminate special development districts we'd be in a much better place.
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USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 10:05:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PlaysWithAtoms: I agree with the other posters saying MO tax burden is high. I lived in NC, SC, GA, and TX. This place is the worst for "death by a thousand cuts." It's not any one component that stands out (though sales taxes are getting out of hand). If all the state did was cap local sales taxes and eliminate special development districts we'd be in a much better place. It’s funny you say that. Missouri’s tax burden is actually nearly identical to Texas and Georgia, slightly higher than South Carolina and slightly lower than North Carolina. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 10:53:21 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: It’s funny you say that. Missouri’s tax burden is actually nearly identical to Texas and Georgia, slightly higher than South Carolina and slightly lower than North Carolina. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: Originally Posted By PlaysWithAtoms: I agree with the other posters saying MO tax burden is high. I lived in NC, SC, GA, and TX. This place is the worst for "death by a thousand cuts." It's not any one component that stands out (though sales taxes are getting out of hand). If all the state did was cap local sales taxes and eliminate special development districts we'd be in a much better place. It’s funny you say that. Missouri’s tax burden is actually nearly identical to Texas and Georgia, slightly higher than South Carolina and slightly lower than North Carolina. IMO those tax burden websites are not well-researched. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 12:02:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious. Where should the budget be cut? Which specific programs? It'd have to researched for specifics but I'd cut out all services that are not specifically enumerated in the Federal or/and MO constitutions. I doubt parks and recreational activities are mentioned. Health and human services. Dept of education. .... In departments that are constitution, areas that aren't I'd lean on the side of cutting too much and adding back any errors in cuts rather than cutting too little. |
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Posted: 8/8/2024 1:21:19 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: It'd have to researched for specifics but I'd cut out all services that are not specifically enumerated in the Federal or/and MO constitutions. I doubt parks and recreational activities are mentioned. Health and human services. Dept of education. .... In departments that are constitution, areas that aren't I'd lean on the side of cutting too much and adding back any errors in cuts rather than cutting too little. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: It'd have to researched for specifics but I'd cut out all services that are not specifically enumerated in the Federal or/and MO constitutions. I doubt parks and recreational activities are mentioned. Health and human services. Dept of education. .... In departments that are constitution, areas that aren't I'd lean on the side of cutting too much and adding back any errors in cuts rather than cutting too little. The Constitution specifically innumerates 14 cabinet level departments. The voters approved this language and only the voters can change it. IV Section 12. Executive department, composition of — elective officials — departments and offices enumerated. — The executive department shall consist of all state elective and appointive officials and employees except officials and employees of the legislative and judicial departments. In addition to the governor and lieutenant governor there shall be a state auditor, secretary of state, attorney general, a state treasurer, an office of administration, a department of agriculture, a department of conservation, a department of natural resources, a department of elementary and secondary education, a department of higher education, a department of highways and transportation, a department of insurance, a department of labor and industrial relations, a department of economic development, a department of public safety, a department of revenue, a department of social services, a department of the National Guard, and a department of mental health. In addition to the elected officers, there shall not be more than sixteen departments and the office of administration. The general assembly may create by law two departments, in addition to those named, provided that the departments shall be headed by a director or commission appointed by the governor on the advice and consent of the senate. The director or commission shall have administrative responsibility and authority for the department created by law. Unless discontinued all present or future boards, bureaus, commissions and other agencies of the state exercising administrative or executive authority shall be assigned by law or by the governor as provided by law to the office of administration or to one of the sixteen administrative departments to which their respective powers and duties are germane. https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=IV++++12&bid=51538&constit=y |
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Posted: 8/8/2024 1:37:57 PM EDT
[#36]
The Missouri Constitution contains a little bit of everything. It's bloated as can be.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 2:45:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: The Constitution specifically innumerates 14 cabinet level departments. The voters approved this language and only the voters can change it. https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=IV++++12&bid=51538&constit=y OK minimalize it. I'd love to invite you to what the founding fathers envisioned for our nation. I lead groups .... anyone who wants to join invite ... If you don't want to, I understand why you would not. go to https://www.patriotacademy.com/ find out why. We need to get back to our foundational roots. We are not where our founding fathers wanted... we are where they feared. They knew human nature... they knew natural law. Among us are the lazy, those how are not sharp, those who wish to exploit the previous two... Shame on them. I welcome your questions.... You are a Thinking American I sense you are legitimately asking.... This dialogue is valuable for those seeking info I welcome continuing dialoge I aint' all that.. I'm just a guy who loves our country I can be so wrong.... in so many ways I am just one man... stating his opinion do Your own research But I will always vote for liberty for gun ownership |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 2:53:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JAD762: It’s funny you say that. Missouri’s tax burden is actually nearly identical to Texas and Georgia, slightly higher than South Carolina and slightly lower than North Carolina. OK to the extent it can be limited it. do so. You see, to, me is just a shit kicker, Please post another positive example please example upon what your ars far Not upon You are aginst |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 3:02:16 PM EDT
[#39]
then shame of them on them but I understand as there are two lawns
mans laws Gods laws as we dialogue I recognize You are who you are You are wrong! I get it... |
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USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 3:23:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PlaysWithAtoms: IMO those tax burden websites are not well-researched. And how did you come to that opinion? Because its been my experience that people don't track their expenses very well, especially when it comes to their taxes. When we moved to Kentucky we thought it was great because the way Kentucky structured their taxes it made it feel like we were paying less there. But when we crunched the numbers we realized that we were actually paying noticeably more. I suspect that if you were to cruch the numbers you'd conclude that those tax burden sites are closer than you think. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 3:25:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: OK to the extent it can be limited it. do so. You see, to, me is just a shit kicker, Please post another positive example please example upon what your ars far Not upon You are aginst Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deuskid: OK to the extent it can be limited it. do so. You see, to, me is just a shit kicker, Please post another positive example please example upon what your ars far Not upon You are aginst Originally Posted By Deuskid: then shame of them on them but I understand as there are two lawns mans laws Gods laws as we dialogue I recognize You are who you are You are wrong! I get it... Well, I guess its 5 o'clock somewhere. 
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Posted: 8/8/2024 4:31:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia: The Missouri Constitution contains a little bit of everything. It's bloated as can be. With that in mind, it's probably a good thing that IP reform didn't get done. It would be nearly impossible to change the constitution with the changes that were proposed during the 2024 session. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 6:59:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Personal property tax brings in about $1.5 billion in revenue a year for the state.
The budget has gone from $20B in 2010 to $52B this year. So they found a way to SPEND $22B more, but they can't figure out a way to spend $1.5B less????? Complete BS. Personal property taxes could disappear and it would be pretty easy to figure out |
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Posted: 8/8/2024 8:29:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bye_Felicia]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: With that in mind, it's probably a good thing that IP reform didn't get done. It would be nearly impossible to change the constitution with the changes that were proposed during the 2024 session. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By Bye_Felicia: The Missouri Constitution contains a little bit of everything. It's bloated as can be. With that in mind, it's probably a good thing that IP reform didn't get done. It would be nearly impossible to change the constitution with the changes that were proposed during the 2024 session. It's a catch 22. IP reform would lock things in place making it hard to trim, however, no IP reform means it can continue to grow exponentially. I highly suggest people request a physical copy of a MO Constitution from their state rep or other means. Then print the US constitution, with amendments. If the shear size of the MO Constitution doesn't shock you, I can't help. Then actually read it. I'd suggest a lot of caffeine. |
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USA
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Posted: 8/8/2024 8:43:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By delorean: Personal property tax brings in about $1.5 billion in revenue a year for the state. The budget has gone from $20B in 2010 to $52B this year. So they found a way to SPEND $22B more, but they can't figure out a way to spend $1.5B less????? Complete BS. Personal property taxes could disappear and it would be pretty easy to figure out As mentioned before, that increase is almost entirely driven by federal money with federal earmarks. This year the fed represents about half our budget. If you take that away we’re left with a roughly $25B budget. Inflation adjustments since 2010 alone should put us around $29B. |
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Posted: 8/8/2024 9:15:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia: I highly suggest people request a physical copy of a MO Constitution from their state rep or other means. Then print the US constitution, with amendments. If the shear size of the MO Constitution doesn't shock you, I can't help. Then actually read it. I'd suggest a lot of caffeine. It's online: https://revisor.mo.gov/main/Home.aspx?constit=y |
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Posted: 8/8/2024 10:30:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By Bye_Felicia: I highly suggest people request a physical copy of a MO Constitution from their state rep or other means. Then print the US constitution, with amendments. If the shear size of the MO Constitution doesn't shock you, I can't help. Then actually read it. I'd suggest a lot of caffeine. It's online: https://revisor.mo.gov/main/Home.aspx?constit=y I know. The point was that the physical copy of the MO Constitution compared to a physical copy of the US constitution really hammers home the bloat. 197 pages for Missouri vs 15 for the US w all amendments. The index for the digital MO Constitution is longer than the US Constitution. |
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Posted: 8/8/2024 10:42:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia: I know. The point was that the physical copy of the MO Constitution compared to a physical copy of the US constitution really hammers home the bloat. 197 pages for Missouri vs 15 for the US w all amendments. The index for the digital MO Constitution is longer than the US Constitution. Clearly, there are things in the constitution that should just be statutes (marijuana, for example), but it really shouldn't be a surprise that the state constitution is more complex than the federal constitution. It's that way by design: Amendment X -- The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. |
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Posted: 8/9/2024 7:13:15 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Clearly, there are things in the constitution that should just be statutes (marijuana, for example), but it really shouldn't be a surprise that the state constitution is more complex than the federal constitution. It's that way by design: Amendment X -- The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Originally Posted By Bye_Felicia: I know. The point was that the physical copy of the MO Constitution compared to a physical copy of the US constitution really hammers home the bloat. 197 pages for Missouri vs 15 for the US w all amendments. The index for the digital MO Constitution is longer than the US Constitution. Clearly, there are things in the constitution that should just be statutes (marijuana, for example), but it really shouldn't be a surprise that the state constitution is more complex than the federal constitution. It's that way by design: Amendment X -- The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Missouri's Constitution is the 4th longest in the Nation. |
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Posted: 8/9/2024 7:21:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia: Missouri's Constitution is the 4th longest in the Nation. So, when you circulate your initiative petition to change it, which specific provisions will you propose we eliminate? It would be helpful if you would refer to the exact provision designations found in the link posted above so we could all consider your changes. Keep in mind, that when you suggest taking something out of the constitution you are rejecting the will of the people who voted to put the thing in there and instead you would give the legislature the authority to make changes at will (and as the political majority switches within the body). |
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